View Full Version : Why is this Virus Worse in Spain & Italy?
As it stands. Anyone got any theories or is there any hard evidence out there? Are there lots of extended family living together, People in very close proximity together or have the government and public failed to take this seriously-Initially?
Croesy Blue
31-03-20, 14:14
I think initially it wasn't taken as seriously as it was here, plus they're both very social countries and quit tactile with friends etc.
During the first few weeks of their "lock down" people were still going to bars and restaurants etc.
Also Italy at least has an old population.
Not sure if they are the exact reasons but those are the ones I've read.
the other bob wilson
31-03-20, 14:21
I've heard it said that those two countries are more tactile than most in Europe and I suppose it could be that the temperatures tend to be higher there than other on the continent, but I'm not really convinced about either of those. It seems to me that in a lot of countries with high rates, much of it is not hit that hard, but they, China and USA all have "hot spots", that's figures are so much worse than any where else - we have it here in Wales to some extent because I'm pretty sure I read that almost half of the deaths so far have come in the area served by the Royal Gwent Hospital - that may partially explain it.
There's compilation videos of Italian mayors going absolutely schizo on people for not paying attention to the quarantine, so I guess there's more than a bit of refusal to do what they've been told.
Rock_Flock_of_Five
31-03-20, 14:36
It will be interesting how all this pans out in Sweden. They seem to have taken a very laid back approach to things over there.
It was only a week or so ago that they said there couldn't be gatherings of more than 500, now they've amended that to 50.
Bars and cafés are still open, as are schools.
Armitage Shanks
31-03-20, 14:40
Apparently its worse in Northern Italy, because atalanta played valencia a couple of days before lockdown.
Attendance 44000.
https://www.si.com/.amp/soccer/2020/03/25/atalanta-valencia-coronavirus-champions-league-san-siro-milan-italy
It's the constant handshaking, hugging and kissing that does it. It's the same here in France, although, in addition, the French don't wash their hands. Lucky to find soap or sometimes even a wash basin in the loos in bars and restaurants.
Is it worse, we seem to be back on the same trajectory as Italy after a delay of a couple of days.
Croesy Blue
31-03-20, 15:07
Is it worse, we seem to be back on the same trajectory as Italy after a delay of a couple of days.
Looks like today is a particularly bad day, I did hear on the radio yesterday a few low days to be followed by a return to the norm should be expected
light up the darkness
31-03-20, 15:08
I read that one of the key reasons behind the rapid spread in Italy was that the social distancing and only allowing key workers to travel were introduced slowly. In the north especially parents were still required to go to work but the schools had closed. The upshot was that the kids were looked after by the grandparents hence the explosion in contagious cases and ultimate deaths particularly amongst the older age groups.
Italy had the bad luck of being the first country hit by this disease and were essentially caught on the hop, all other countries had a couple of weeks to see how it panned out there. Sadly most countries waited too long before taking the extreme measures (USA being an unbelievably bad example) and its going to cost of potentially millions of lives.
Taunton Blue Genie
31-03-20, 15:31
It will be interesting how all this pans out in Sweden. They seem to have taken a very laid back approach to things over there.
It was only a week or so ago that they said there couldn't be gatherings of more than 500, now they've amended that to 50.
Bars and cafés are still open, as are schools.
Football and ice-hockey games are still being played in Belarus and in front of crowds.
Is it worse, we seem to be back on the same trajectory as Italy after a delay of a couple of days.
400 deaths reported today (UK)
Football and ice-hockey games are still being played in Belarus and in front of crowds.
Have you ever been to Belarus? I watch the odd Travel Blog on Youtube, i think there's one called Bald & Bankrupt, he went to Belarus and got on the piss with some Babushkas, drinking their home brew. Very informative!
As it stands. Anyone got any theories or is there any hard evidence out there? Are there lots of extended family living together, People in very close proximity together or have the government and public failed to take this seriously-Initially?
No Idea!!!! but eldest population in Europe a contributory factor?
we have web site after web site giving us a breakdown of deaths, and i would guess that some exist but context of the deaths
(age & pre conditions etc.) would give a maybe better insight, the hip managers i come across in my industry would be barking orders give me a root cause analysis, I tweeted talk radio this morning as they had a doctor on and was surprised that my question was put to the doctor, it was regarding the immune system, the answer given by the doc was a good result for me personally and anyone who's immune system has suffered to an attack on it in the past.
elytillidie
31-03-20, 16:30
It will be interesting how all this pans out in Sweden. They seem to have taken a very laid back approach to things over there.
It was only a week or so ago that they said there couldn't be gatherings of more than 500, now they've amended that to 50.
Bars and cafés are still open, as are schools.
Read about Sweden today, seems crazy. I fear the worst for India and parts of Africa.
The Italians tend to be tactile and make a big thing of meal times i.e. loads of visitors whereas we tend to get home from work, have a beer in front the TV and go to bed.
Rock_Flock_of_Five
31-03-20, 17:06
Read about Sweden today, seems crazy. I fear the worst for India and parts of Africa.
India, with their overcrowded cities and poor hygiene practices seems the perfect cocktail for it to really take a grip there.
Mind you, I saw videos today of the Indian police beating the crap out of anyone in public not wearing a mask. Many of them were being dragged off their motorbikes for wearing handkerchiefs around their face and not suitable masks.
As it stands. Anyone got any theories or is there any hard evidence out there? Are there lots of extended family living together, People in very close proximity together or have the government and public failed to take this seriously-Initially?
Some of Italy is lovely, but a lot of it is a shithole, I think it's because so many of them live in flats, so they are all on top of each other and the communal areas have been breeding grounds early on so it spread much quicker.
Where else is there problems, London, Madrid, New York everywhere has lots of flats and are densely populated.
Also as above the people are all over each other and they do have lots of oldies and multi-generation living in the same households.
life on mars
31-03-20, 17:34
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA.
We have less elderly.
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain.
Better health services.
More disposable income to support a varied diet
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy.
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
life on mars
31-03-20, 17:40
India, with their overcrowded cities and poor hygiene practices seems the perfect cocktail for it to really take a grip there.
Mind you, I saw videos today of the Indian police beating the crap out of anyone in public not wearing a mask. Many of them were being dragged off their motorbikes for wearing handkerchiefs around their face and not suitable masks.
Gosh and we hate Boris and his ruling party 🤔
Taunton Blue Genie
31-03-20, 18:06
Have you ever been to Belarus? I watch the odd Travel Blog on Youtube, i think there's one called Bald & Bankrupt, he went to Belarus and got on the piss with some Babushkas, drinking their home brew. Very informative!
Yes. Last year I visited Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus - and which meant that I have visited every country in Europe.
Belarus (aka White Russia) is meant to a very repressive state but the capital, Minsk, is clean, sophisticated and stylish (unlike the Couchsurfing host who was meant to accommodate me for the first night of my stay).
Heisenberg
31-03-20, 18:14
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA.
We have less elderly.
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain.
Better health services.
More disposable income to support a varied diet
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy.
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
So, so wrong.
Organ Morgan.
31-03-20, 19:14
Think I read Italy is second only to Japan with its very high aged population.
This is a Sky News video about rising social tensions in southern Italy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsNWbfatRwg&feature=youtu.be
J R Hartley
31-03-20, 20:48
It only doesn’t look as bad here yet because we haven’t ramped up testing. Thanks to the dithering by Boris and his useless puppet of a scientific advisor Sir Patrick Herd Immunity Valance the UK will probably end up worse than both.
It took a premier league football manager to contract the virus before this country started taking it serious ffs.
Welshcake.
31-03-20, 21:12
It only doesn’t look as bad here yet because we haven’t ramped up testing. Thanks to the dithering by Boris and his useless puppet of a scientific advisor Sir Patrick Herd Immunity Valance the UK will probably end up worse than both.
It took a premier league football manager to contract the virus before this country started taking it serious ffs.
Well the reason for that was explained in today's 5PM talk. Apparently the chemicals used to make the test are in high demand...
The school holidays didn't help with lots of skiers descending on Northern Italy. That's largely been the cause of the spread throughout Europe.
Yes. Last year I visited Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus - and which meant that I have visited every country in Europe.
Belarus (aka White Russia) is meant to a very repressive state but the capital, Minsk, is clean, sophisticated and stylish (unlike the Couchsurfing host who was meant to accommodate me for the first night of my stay).
I'd like to visit some of the ex soviet Block countries in the future. What was Moldova like? isn't it supposed to be the poorest country in Europe? Albania is a country i'd like to visit.
J R Hartley
31-03-20, 22:27
Well the reason for that was explained in today's 5PM talk. Apparently the chemicals used to make the test are in high demand...
That’s been the party line since the Q and A’s started nearly 3 weeks ago.
I mean, it’s not like we didn’t know this virus was about to descend on our country months ago.
But hey ho, Herd Immunity and all that, we don’t need tests, let’s just kill off the elderly, they were going to die soon anyway and after all chemicals are expensive.
And now today we hear that the Welsh NHS thought they had secured a large supply of tests but have been gazumped by the English NHS. Obviously English lives matter more.
Add to that all around the country some front line NHS staff have still NOT been tested and haven’t all had PPE and mugs like you want to accept the disruption to the supply chain line they keep churning out every day.
Do me a ****ing favour. :shrug:
"We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA."
What do you mean?
[QUOTE=J R Hartley;5060769]That’s been the party line since the Q and A’s started nearly 3 weeks ago.
I mean, it’s not like we didn’t know this virus was about to descend on our country months ago.
But hey ho, Herd Immunity and all that, we don’t need tests, let’s just kill off the elderly, they were going to die soon anyway and after all chemicals are expensive.
And now today we hear that the Welsh NHS thought they had secured a large supply of tests but have been gazumped by the English NHS. Obviously English lives matter more.
Add to that all around the country some front line NHS staff have still NOT been tested and haven’t all had PPE and mugs like you want to accept the disruption to the supply chain line they keep churning out every day.
Good to see you here. I must have been missing you if you've been posting. I was quite concerned but you're clearly on your normal good form.
J R Hartley
31-03-20, 22:46
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA.
We have less elderly.
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain.
Better health services.
More disposable income to support a varied diet
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy.
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. ****.?
J R Hartley
31-03-20, 22:57
Good to see you here. I must have been missing you if you've been posting. I was quite concerned but you're clearly on your normal good form.
For my own sanity and mental health I’ve tried not to get involved on forums and social media too much of late.
J R Hartley
31-03-20, 22:58
So, so wrong.
Frightening
The epidemiology around this is very complex with lots of moving parts. There are very few (if any) reliable sets of data around at the moment.
Drawing any kind of conclusions based on statistics that are publicly available is folly. For example, there is a syndromic Emergency Department tracking system employed by the CDC (that I think is not publicly available) for US hospitals that has been used to infer the current incidence in NYC is a factor of 11x as great as that reported by positives from testing. Just to be clear that's not deaths, it means 11x more people currently have the virus but aren't being included in the reported cases in NYC. (If true, that is a kind of good news because, assuming deaths are being accurately reported, the death rate must be lower than the raw deaths to cases rate you can calculate from the public data.)
For my own sanity and mental health I’ve tried not to get involved on forums and social media too much of late.
Seems like a very good plan !!! :thumbup:
Croesy Blue
01-04-20, 06:39
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA.
We have less elderly.
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain.
Better health services.
More disposable income to support a varied diet
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy.
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
Bloody hell :hehe:
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA.
We have less elderly.
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain.
Better health services.
More disposable income to support a varied diet
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy.
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
You think we have a more varied diet than the Mediterranean countries?
You then compare Germany (rigorous testing) with the UK. Laughable.
splott parker
01-04-20, 09:48
Isn’t the reason that they have a larger older generation down to their better diet & lifestyle?
"We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA."
What do you mean?
I can't wait for this one either :hehe:
Croesy Blue
01-04-20, 10:16
Wait does he think British people have different DNA to italian people?
Heisenberg
01-04-20, 10:36
"We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA."
What do you mean?
PWOPER WHITE PEOPLE DON'T DIE AS MUCH AS THE TANNED BECAUSE WE'RE 'ARD!
What else could the person who previously said that minority ethnicities can't be natural-born Brits have meant?
Isn’t the reason that they have a larger older generation down to their better diet & lifestyle?
Quite likely, and the fact that most other European Countries haven't worked as many hours as us, and maybe because it seems (especially in the Latin Countries) That they get more enjoyment and spend more time together with family members, not just at pissed up events like us Brits (a bit general, i know) Although i once heard a comedian say that he went to India and met a man who was 98 years old, had one tooth and slept in a bin, so who knows... :hehe:
Heisenberg
01-04-20, 11:09
My theory no proof:
We may manage flu like viruses better via our DNA. Hilarious. Dangerous thinking, but hilarious
We have less elderly. Less than Italy but figures suggest we have more than Spain (we have a slightly lower amount of elderly as a percentage of the population but we have a larger population than them by approximately 20m
Quality of life for elderly better in UK than in rural parts of Italy and Spain. On what basis did you concoct that theory? Either you don't know what 'rural' means or you've never seen what rural Italy and Spain look like. That's a quality of life that I'd dream of. Also you're comparing the quality of life in an entire nation to rural areas of others - that doesn't work unless the other countries are entirely consisted of 'rural' areas
Better health services. We're miles behind Italy and Spain in terms of health services. Just Google any variation of 'best healthcare systems in the world' and see the evidence for yourself.
More disposable income to support a varied diet Why does disposable income suggest a varied diet? The obesity rates in the UK are much higher than Italy and Spain - so looks like you're wrong again... unless a 'varied diet' means getting a boneless bucket instead of a big mac on occasion
Better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy. Are you saying the entire UK has better public health than the "outer rural areas of Spain and Italy" or that the 'outer rural areas of the UK having better public health than the outer rural areas of Spain and Italy". Also, what's an outer rural area?
Its vastness of land , may hinder health care reach Vastness of land???
It is interesting that the UK and Germany are coping better I would hazard a guess if has better benefits than a number of European countries .Is the UK coping better or are we just a few weeks behind Italy in terms of dealing with the virus? The figures suggest the latter, unfortunately.
These are just thoughts, probably wrong .
As said previously... so, so wrong.
I think initially it wasn't taken as seriously as it was here, plus they're both very social countries and quit tactile with friends etc.
During the first few weeks of their "lock down" people were still going to bars and restaurants etc.
Also Italy at least has an old population.
Not sure if they are the exact reasons but those are the ones I've read.
Taken as seriously in the UK? Are you serious? Cheltenham, Bars, a leader stating "take it on the chin, shaking hands with patients, people singing f*** the virus in packed bars, sold out gigs etc.
What rock have you been hiding under? 🙄
Croesy Blue
01-04-20, 11:23
Taken as seriously in the UK? Are you serious? Cheltenham, Bars, a leader stating "take it on the chin, shaking hands with patients, people singing f*** the virus in packed bars, sold out gigs etc.
What rock have you been hiding under? ��
Yeah and it was a lot worse a lot further along the curve in Italy.
tell it like it is
01-04-20, 11:25
Wait does he think British people have different DNA to italian people?
We have blood, they have ragu sauce...
light up the darkness
01-04-20, 15:05
Isn’t the reason that they have a larger older generation down to their better diet & lifestyle?
No
All the youngsters have fkd off to find work leaving behind half empty towns and villages almost depopulated some areas
the other bob wilson
09-04-20, 11:49
I thought I'd resurrect this thread in light of the fact that yesterday's UK deaths figure was higher than anything recorded by Italy and lower than the figure for Spain on just one day - it looks certain now that death and new cases rates are declining in those two countries, so it's unlikely that they will record higher figures in the future unless they come in a second wave of the virus.
There has to be a likelihood that the UK will go beyond that Spanish highest day soon, so perhaps the question should be why are our figures so bad? I started this with a desire not to get political about the COVID19 crisis in this country, but it's become a whole lot harder to do that when you see us on a par with those Mediterranean countries with no definite signs yet of rates plateauing here yet and worse off than most Northern European countries on the mainland.
Croesy Blue
09-04-20, 11:57
It does feel like this thread really jumped the gun with this question.
It does feel like this thread really jumped the gun with this question.
I meant 'At the time of writing, without allowing for all of the other factors involved, which was sort of the question and debate that i was hoping for, although it's happening now.
I thought I'd resurrect this thread in light of the fact that yesterday's UK deaths figure was higher than anything recorded by Italy and lower than the figure for Spain on just one day - it looks certain now that death and new cases rates are declining in those two countries, so it's unlikely that they will record higher figures in the future unless they come in a second wave of the virus.
There has to be a likelihood that the UK will go beyond that Spanish highest day soon, so perhaps the question should be why are our figures so bad? I started this with a desire not to get political about the COVID19 crisis in this country, but it's become a whole lot harder to do that when you see us on a par with those Mediterranean countries with no definite signs yet of rates plateauing here yet and worse off than most Northern European countries on the mainland.
The question now is did our government and scientists act quickly enough-take things seriously enough etc. I have massive concerns over Boris and his Churchillian attitude towards crisis and suffering, he seems to be stuck in a post colonial time warp where he pictures himself walking purposefully over the smouldering ruins of a bombing raid. This is different, empty rhetoric could cost lives.
the other bob wilson
09-04-20, 13:39
The question now is did our government and scientists act quickly enough-take things seriously enough etc. I have massive concerns over Boris and his Churchillian attitude towards crisis and suffering, he seems to be stuck in a post colonial time warp where he pictures himself walking purposefully over the smouldering ruins of a bombing raid. This is different, empty rhetoric could cost lives.
Yes, I agree - I look at the hesitation with implementing the current lockdown and with things like the closing of pubs and think how many lives is that going to cost? I appreciate the scale of the task a new Government has had foisted upon them, but it strikes me that in the early days of this crisis, it was treated in the kind of way a financial crisis would be in that it was almost like an experiment in which some sort of pet theory could be proved or otherwise - we went against the prevailing view among many of our neighbours and it looks like we could pay for that.
Yes, I agree - I look at the hesitation with implementing the current lockdown and with things like the closing of pubs and think how many lives is that going to cost? I appreciate the scale of the task a new Government has had foisted upon them, but it strikes me that in the early days of this crisis, it was treated in the kind of way a financial crisis would be in that it was almost like an experiment in which some sort of pet theory could be proved or otherwise - we went against the prevailing view among many of our neighbours and it looks like we could pay for that.
I think that Raising his political ideologies is perfectly acceptable in this instance and i'd go as far as to say that johnson would've equated this Virus in the same way he would a financial crisis, that being to protect the interests of the few. Closing down business and massively disrupting commerce is at odds with his political beliefs, i don't think that he has much interest in the vulnerable, poor and sick who have no other option than to use stretched and cut to the bone service, afterall, he doesn't really have those peoples support and to him they're probably a drain on resources. He may have thought that it's quite likely that those at the bottom of the social ladder will suffer the most, what's new! I don't trust him to get anything right and in my opinion, everything implemented to eradicate this virus is at odds with his personal ideology.
the other bob wilson
10-04-20, 06:28
I thought I'd resurrect this thread in light of the fact that yesterday's UK deaths figure was higher than anything recorded by Italy and lower than the figure for Spain on just one day - it looks certain now that death and new cases rates are declining in those two countries, so it's unlikely that they will record higher figures in the future unless they come in a second wave of the virus.
There has to be a likelihood that the UK will go beyond that Spanish highest day soon, so perhaps the question should be why are our figures so bad? I started this with a desire not to get political about the COVID19 crisis in this country, but it's become a whole lot harder to do that when you see us on a par with those Mediterranean countries with no definite signs yet of rates plateauing here yet and worse off than most Northern European countries on the mainland.
Just to say that I, wrongly, assumed that if Spain and Italy hadn't recorded a thousand plus deaths in a day, we could well become the first country besides the USA to do so, but France have done it five times now. The French figures are all over the place mind with huge peaks and troughs and they also show one day when the new cases figure was more than double any day before or since then - this was explained by seventeen thousand cases in nursing homes which had only just been added into the figures, but it does seem to show that while correct figures will eventually be arrived at, the figures given on a daily basis are not going to be 100 per cent accurate.
as far as Italy goes , what im hearing is that in the beginning of the lockdown there were lots of people ignoring it.
Elwood Blues
10-04-20, 08:18
Yes, I agree - I look at the hesitation with implementing the current lockdown and with things like the closing of pubs and think how many lives is that going to cost? I appreciate the scale of the task a new Government has had foisted upon them, but it strikes me that in the early days of this crisis, it was treated in the kind of way a financial crisis would be in that it was almost like an experiment in which some sort of pet theory could be proved or otherwise - we went against the prevailing view among many of our neighbours and it looks like we could pay for that.
Were the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer plus the other experts such as Professor Neal Ferguson complicit in this *experiment" then Bob?
Croesy Blue
10-04-20, 08:34
Were the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer plus the other experts such as Professor Neal Ferguson complicit in this *experiment" then Bob?
So what?
the other bob wilson
10-04-20, 10:00
Were the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer plus the other experts such as Professor Neal Ferguson complicit in this *experiment" then Bob?
Yes, they were, but see Croesy Blue's answer to your question. It may be harsh, but the Government will be the ones to carry the can in any post virus inquest if there is one to be carried - rest assured, there'd be plenty of crowing from the politicians if our figures looked like Germany's do currently.
Elwood Blues
10-04-20, 12:36
Yes, they were, but see Croesy Blue's answer to your question. It may be harsh, but the Government will be the ones to carry the can in any post virus inquest if there is one to be carried - rest assured, there'd be plenty of crowing from the politicians if our figures looked like Germany's do currently.
So you are saying the experts acted illegally or were morally wrong in what they told the government?
So you are saying the experts acted illegally or were morally wrong in what they told the government?
Doesn't matter, Governments are advised on hundreds of topics. They either decide to take that advice or not, in short, it's their shout and they take responsibility, a bit like a football manager has to do when he spends 6 million quid on a bunk striker, he would've had scouting reports although the responsibility for the players success or failure is his.
A Quiet Monkfish
10-04-20, 13:18
So you are saying the experts acted illegally or were morally wrong in what they told the government?
This man is the Deputy Scientific Advisor at the Home Office.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1267376/coronavirus-latest-working-from-home-COVID-19-death-toll-news-boris-johnson
As I posted a week ago before being shot down, people with views contrary to Neil Ferguson's are beginning to gain sufficient confidence to voice their opinions..
This man is the Deputy Scientific Advisor at the Home Office.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1267376/coronavirus-latest-working-from-home-COVID-19-death-toll-news-boris-johnson
As I posted a week ago before being shot down, people with views contrary to Neil Ferguson's are beginning to gain sufficient confidence to voice their opinions..
To be fair, you were shot down for saying that the media and politicians were being drama queens. And this was less than a month ago, when we were well into it.
the other bob wilson
10-04-20, 13:59
So you are saying the experts acted illegally or were morally wrong in what they told the government?
I honestly don't see why you would ask that based on the reply I gave you, but I'll answer, no, not illegally. Imorally is a bit more difficult, I hesitate to say that, but the original herd mentality theorising would, by general agreement I'd say now, have led to tens of thousands more deaths. That should have set alarm bells among the politicians and I'm pretty sure I would have viewed it as a real last resort if I had been in the Government, yet it seems they were willing to go along with this until a report was published showing the extent of the death and suffering this would cause.
As I have mentioned on here previously, it has struck me that there was something of the same sort of feeling of experimentation you sometimes see in times of economic crisis in official thinking initially and, even when the decision was made to go for a policy of social distancing, Boris Johnson especially seemed reluctant to commit fully to it. Therefore , while I wouldn't say Government or officials were morally wrong, they did seem willing to see more die when most of the world was talking in terms of testing and social isolation.
Croesy Blue
10-04-20, 16:25
From this weeks private eye:
What’s most striking about Britain’s idiosyncratic approach to tackling the coronavirus pandemic is the lack of public support from senior scientists and public health experts outside the government circle.
Most support Johnson’s belated attempt at a lockdown but the worry is the U.K. is 2 weeks behind the curve, particularly in London.
Many believe he wasted 9 weeks on nuanced nudging when the evidence from China and Italy was tougher methods were needed. Many remain incredulous at the lack of contact tracing, not just in the community but of NHS staff, who don’t know if they have it so err on the side of caution and stay off work.
Johnson has ignored the evidence based advice of the WHO and gone it alone.
So that’s Elwood’s science defence of his beloved Tory leader blown out the water.
There’s also an article about him being resistant to being too quickly by the science. He was recommended to close bars and schools in February - which they didn’t do until late March. Might have been a chance we would have not had as many deaths and not had to crash the economy then.
The question will also be asked: to some extent we had time on our side. Why are our deaths similar to those those countries which didn’t (Italy) and against those countries (like us) which did (Germany/Denmark/Norway)?
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1248653002392637440
Can we make sure we ask this question when this nightmare is over? Can we make sure we ask why there was such slow move towards daily briefings and an even slower move to follow up questions in those briefings? Can we ask why there is such a lack of equipment, that not every source has been tapped, and why we're now asking those with a 3D printer to get involved?
Croesy Blue
10-04-20, 17:51
That’s the thing it’s the slow response and lack of preparedness that’s ****ed everything.
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