View Full Version : 6PM Curfew - for Men.?
https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/amp/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16154748642302&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews% 2Farticle-9350711%2FGreen-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html
Im sure sky sports will be looking into earlier KO times to adhere to this new measure that they are fully supporting.
Maybe a 6pm curfew for police officers?
I'd estimate at least half that page is about women sharing their experience and showing solidarity with other women. If the headline of the speech used in the opening of the article has got people engaging with the second half then it's not a tactic I would employ but it might have worked.
bring it on, someone else can pop to the shops in the pouring rain next time we need an ingredient after 6.
Moodybluebird
11-03-21, 15:42
Baroness Numbskull of Cuckooland more like it. Are we sure she doesn't represent the Monster Raving Loony Party. Lord Sutch would have been proud of her.
life on mars
11-03-21, 16:16
33 Female Million in the UK , hopefully majority are safe , the danger is in around urban cities for young children , men , LBGT , BAME in London the stabbings are crazy .
I seen the video and it came across as hyperbole to point out the absurdity of women being asked to 'not go out alone at night'
the fact her suggestion sounds crazy is the point she is making, we wouldn't think of asking men to not go out at night, but women are commonly told this by police, relatives ect,
women often end up having a 'de facto curfew' because it is not regarded as safe to be outside alone after dark.
I am not saying that I agree with her point, In fact statistically it is much more dangerous for a young male to be out at night than a young women. However in the interest of fairness I think the context of her point should be recognized.
Moodybluebird
11-03-21, 17:06
I seen the video and it came across as hyperbole to point out the absurdity of women being asked to 'not go out alone at night'
the fact her suggestion sounds crazy is the point she is making, we wouldn't think of asking men to not go out at night, but women are commonly told this by police, relatives ect,
women often end up having a 'de facto curfew' because it is not regarded as safe to be outside alone after dark.
I am not saying that I agree with her point, In fact statistically it is much more dangerous for a young male to be out at night than a young women. However in the interest of fairness I think the context of her point should be recognized.
Nobody would argue with her concern for women's safety on the streets at night but her proposal to introduce a 6pm curfew for men tells me one thing. She's absolutely bonkers
Nobody would argue with her concern for women's safety on the streets at night but her proposal to introduce a 6pm curfew for men tells me one thing. She's absolutely bonkers
Is that what she is suggesting, or is it to highlight the fact that women are told not to go out on their own at certain times, like the previous poster alluded to.
I wouldn't even wipe my backside with the DM
Moodybluebird
11-03-21, 17:59
I wouldn't even wipe my backside with the DM
Always had you down as a Sunday Sport reader anyhow lol
If we assume she's using it as a way of conveying her message, rather than it being a hill she wants to die on, the method of messaging seems to have failed.
Saw a thing earlier which used an apparent American study to have firstly men and then women describe actions they take to prevent being attacked, abused or raped. In the men's column they said it's not something they think about it while in women's column there was a long list that included not going jogging at night, checking backseat before getting into a car, not going in lifts with a lone man/group of men, avoiding woods even in daytime, avoiding making eye contact with men when walking in the street...
I guess the curfew point, though apparently badly made, is what can men do to make that list for women much shorter/not exist?
Nobody would argue with her concern for women's safety on the streets at night but her proposal to introduce a 6pm curfew for men tells me one thing. She's absolutely bonkers
Have you actually read the article? She's clearly just making a point :shrug:
Always had you down as a Sunday Sport reader anyhow lol
its hard to find good journalism. if you have any tips
OurManFlint II
11-03-21, 18:46
If we assume she's using it as a way of conveying her message, rather than it being a hill she wants to die on, the method of messaging seems to have failed.
Saw a thing earlier which used an apparent American study to have firstly men and then women describe actions they take to prevent being attacked, abused or raped. In the men's column they said it's not something they think about it while in women's column there was a long list that included not going jogging at night, checking backseat before getting into a car, not going in lifts with a lone man/group of men, avoiding woods even in daytime, avoiding making eye contact with men when walking in the street...
I guess the curfew point, though apparently badly made, is what can men do to make that list for women much shorter/not exist?
Seen something similar a few years ago where women were asked what they'd do if for 1 day men didn't exist. Vast majority said go for walk, walk in a national park, walk at night.
Seen something similar a few years ago where women were asked what they'd do if for 1 day men didn't exist. Vast majority said go for walk, walk in a national park, walk at night.
I feel bad that Women feel that way, but do question if the potential threat justifies the need to be living in fear. Maybe I am naïve, but I did lots of backpacking through Asia, Europe and North America in my early twenties. I met many fellow like minded backpackers, mainly in hostels who were solo girl travelers in their early twenties.
Unfortunately I am sure some of them did have negative experiences (as did I) but on the whole I never heard of anything genuinely bad happening and they had all the positive memories and benefits that solo travelling around the world provides, I would encourage my daughter to have similar experiences, I would worry of course but I also realise that the threat is small in comparison to the damage wrapping her up in cotton wool would do.
William Treseder
11-03-21, 19:08
Sludge can hopefully shed some light on this.
He’s been under a 6pm curfew around the Bridgend area for yrs.
Llandaff Blue
12-03-21, 03:14
Nobody would argue with her concern for women's safety on the streets at night but her proposal to introduce a 6pm curfew for men tells me one thing. She's absolutely bonkers
Are you taking the piss or genuinely not understanding the point? It's a metaphor mate
WJ99mobile
12-03-21, 08:22
Are you taking the piss or genuinely not understanding the point? It's a metaphor mate
I know people who’ve taken the words literally.
WJ99mobile
12-03-21, 08:25
As men we have to think what can we do differently to make the area safer for women.
There’s not a huge amount we can do apart from encourage spending on police, street lighting and probably speaking up when other men are being ****s
Most already do that so there’s not much that we can really do. Such a shame but it’s just life. There’s a lot of nutters out there
OurManFlint II
12-03-21, 08:33
As men we have to think what can we do differently to make the area safer for women.
There’s not a huge amount we can do apart from encourage spending on police, street lighting and probably speaking up when other men are being ****s
Most already do that so there’s not much that we can really do. Such a shame but it’s just life. There’s a lot of nutters out there
Mad statement, unless you're being ironic?
Croesy Blue
12-03-21, 09:02
Most already do that so there’s not much that we can really do. Such a shame but it’s just life. There’s a lot of nutters out there
I don’t think this is the case is it
Eric Cartman
12-03-21, 10:09
I don’t think this is the case is it
Agreed, the same applies to women too. People are incentivised to not challenge authority and not create waves, people are quite often publicly ostracised for standing up for what they believe in.
Eric Cartman
12-03-21, 10:12
Are you taking the piss or genuinely not understanding the point? It's a metaphor mate
The issue as usual is that some people will misinterpret the point as a serious policy proposal and then eventually that will get used the 'anti woke' lot to belittle the actual issue.
Croesy Blue
12-03-21, 10:26
The issue as usual is that some people will misinterpret the point as a serious policy proposal and then eventually that will get used the 'anti woke' lot to belittle the actual issue.
Nailed it
If we assume she's using it as a way of conveying her message, rather than it being a hill she wants to die on, the method of messaging seems to have failed.
Saw a thing earlier which used an apparent American study to have firstly men and then women describe actions they take to prevent being attacked, abused or raped. In the men's column they said it's not something they think about it while in women's column there was a long list that included not going jogging at night, checking backseat before getting into a car, not going in lifts with a lone man/group of men, avoiding woods even in daytime, avoiding making eye contact with men when walking in the street...
I guess the curfew point, though apparently badly made, is what can men do to make that list for women much shorter/not exist?
rapists are gonna rape, murderers are gonna murder. There's nothing we can do about that as our punishment of criminals doesn't stop the crime itself.
As men we have to think what can we do differently to make the area safer for women.
There’s not a huge amount we can do apart from encourage spending on police, street lighting and probably speaking up when other men are being ****s
Most already do that so there’s not much that we can really do. Such a shame but it’s just life. There’s a lot of nutters out there
what could you have done to stop this latest murder?
incidentally, the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1. Infanticide caused by post partum depression in women is higher than any other form of murder. Should we take all new borns off women just to be safe?
sounds daft doesn't it.
Does this mean, if you are in the pub at 6pm, you gotta stay there till the morning !?
It'll lead to a lot of alcoholism and divorces !
Does this mean, if you are in the pub at 6pm, you gotta stay there till the morning !?
It'll lead to a lot of alcoholism and divorces !
for every negative there's a positive
what could you have done to stop this latest murder?
incidentally, the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1. Infanticide caused by post partum depression in women is higher than any other form of murder. Should we take all new borns off women just to be safe?
sounds daft doesn't it.
You are out of date: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019
“The most common age-group for victims of homicides recorded in the year ending March 2019 was 25- to 34-year-olds (136 victims). This was followed by 16- to 24-year-olds (113 victims), and 35- to 44-year-olds (107 victims) and 45- to 54- year-olds (107 victims). (Figure 3).”
And also you missed the point. This debate is about sexual harassment and gender equality
You are out of date: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019
“The most common age-group for victims of homicides recorded in the year ending March 2019 was 25- to 34-year-olds (136 victims). This was followed by 16- to 24-year-olds (113 victims), and 35- to 44-year-olds (107 victims) and 45- to 54- year-olds (107 victims). (Figure 3).”
And also you missed the point. This debate is about sexual harassment and gender equality
firstly, the age range of those under 1 is less than a year. You are claiming the 25-34 age group - ten years - is greater than those under 1. It is not. More babies under 1 are murdered each year than at any other age. Read table 4 of the stats of your own analysis
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/appendixtableshomicideinenglandandwales
for someone who claims to study economics your interpretation of data is lacking. look up the concept of normalisation.
you've also missed point by a country mile. Infanticide, specifically the murder of children under the age of 1, forms the single biggest group by age, and is caused predominantly by women. Yet we aren't blaming women as a whole for this as to do so would be assuming all women are to blame. thats absurd.
It follows that the murder of a woman by a man should not be about gender and looking to blame men, but about the murderer's own psychotic issues and look to understand what caused them
To slightly misquote that Daniel Sloss video going around...
"When 1 in 10 men are sh*t and the other 9 do nothing they may as well not be there. You have to be actively good."
Being actively good will contribute to undoing/slowing the build up of some people's psychotic issues, it will take away some of the opportunity for those "murders are going to murder etc." including women behind those infanticide figures.
To slightly misquote that Daniel Sloss video going around...
"When 1 in 10 men are sh*t and the other 9 do nothing they may as well not be there. You have to be actively good."
Being actively good will contribute to undoing/slowing the build up of some people's psychotic issues, it will take away some of the opportunity for those "murders are going to murder etc." including women behind those infanticide figures.
its an interesting proposition. How would you or I castigating sludge for his posts about women have helped to stop this week's murder?
Croesy Blue
12-03-21, 13:00
To slightly misquote that Daniel Sloss video going around...
"When 1 in 10 men are sh*t and the other 9 do nothing they may as well not be there. You have to be actively good."
Being actively good will contribute to undoing/slowing the build up of some people's psychotic issues, it will take away some of the opportunity for those "murders are going to murder etc." including women behind those infanticide figures.
It’s spot on, like with everything shit in this world if people are actively good it’ll make a difference even if it’s just a small difference individually.
Croesy Blue
12-03-21, 13:00
firstly, the age range of those under 1 is less than a year. You are claiming the 25-34 age group - ten years - is greater than those under 1. It is not. More babies under 1 are murdered each year than at any other age. Read table 4 of the stats of your own analysis
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/appendixtableshomicideinenglandandwales
for someone who claims to study economics your interpretation of data is lacking. look up the concept of normalisation.
you've also missed point by a country mile. Infanticide, specifically the murder of children under the age of 1, forms the single biggest group by age, and is caused predominantly by women. Yet we aren't blaming women as a whole for this as to do so would be assuming all women are to blame. thats absurd.
It follows that the murder of a woman by a man should not be about gender and looking to blame men, but about the murderer's own psychotic issues and look to understand what caused them
I can’t imagine how anyone can be this much of a twat :hehe:
I can’t imagine how anyone can be this much of a twat :hehe:
you can only begin to imagine my shock that we find out that once again, you've got nothing constructive to add.
cyril evans awaydays
12-03-21, 13:11
It’s spot on, like with everything shit in this world if people are actively good it’ll make a difference even if it’s just a small difference individually.
Being less indulgent or engaged with people to proudly boast about indecent exposure and masturbation in a crowded night club would be a good start I guess.
what could you have done to stop this latest murder?
incidentally, the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1. Infanticide caused by post partum depression in women is higher than any other form of murder. Should we take all new borns off women just to be safe?
sounds daft doesn't it.
Well since hed recently been arrested for indecent exposure maybe locking him up before he committed murder. Or at least tag him so he couldnt leave the house.
ninian opinian
12-03-21, 13:12
Being less indulgent or engaged with people to proudly boast about indecent exposure and masturbation in a crowded night club would be a good start I guess.
Booooooom!!!
Being less indulgent or engaged with people to proudly boast about indecent exposure and masturbation in a crowded night club would be a good start I guess.
there was nothing indecent about it at all, i was with the missus and as was the case back then, we were all doved up
:thumbup:
Well since hed recently been arrested for indecent exposure maybe locking him up before he committed murder. Or at least tag him so he couldnt leave the house.
hindsight is wonderful.
is it usual practice to keep alleged perpetrators of indecent exposure on remand or on tag pending trial?
firstly, the age range of those under 1 is less than a year. You are claiming the 25-34 age group - ten years - is greater than those under 1. It is not. More babies under 1 are murdered each year than at any other age. Read table 4 of the stats of your own analysis
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/appendixtableshomicideinenglandandwales
for someone who claims to study economics your interpretation of data is lacking. look up the concept of normalisation.
you've also missed point by a country mile. Infanticide, specifically the murder of children under the age of 1, forms the single biggest group by age, and is caused predominantly by women. Yet we aren't blaming women as a whole for this as to do so would be assuming all women are to blame. thats absurd.
It follows that the murder of a woman by a man should not be about gender and looking to blame men, but about the murderer's own psychotic issues and look to understand what caused them
And here we have an example of how to shift the goalposts. You said “the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1”. Yet how come the ONS report said the part I quoted? And you mention normalisation - look at how many under 1s there would be compared to those who are 25-34. There are more 25-29 year olds compare to under 1s as of 2019. As someone said “your interpretation of data is lacking”.
But let’s not get distracted. Infanticide is an issue, yes, but the debate here is about sexual harassment, not murder. Your attitude is like those who claim “all lives matter” - it is avoiding the point and deflecting on the inequalities.
And here we have an example of how to shift the goalposts. You said “the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1”. Yet how come the ONS report said the part I quoted? And you mention normalisation - look at how many under 1s there would be compared to those who are 25-34. There are more 25-29 year olds compare to under 1s as of 2019. As someone said “your interpretation of data is lacking”.
But let’s not get distracted. Infanticide is an issue, yes, but the debate here is about sexual harassment, not murder. Your attitude is like those who claim “all lives matter” - it is avoiding the point and deflecting on the inequalities.
You need to re-read what you have written then take a pause and think about it again.
Just because there are more murders in the 25-34 age group does not mean that this holds true for any one particular age.
There is further analysis in your own link, shown the incidences of murder for each particular age and not group of ages. For both male and female victims the age of less than 1 has the highest rate of murders.
You're on a sticky wicket here, you just can't see it.
As for this particular topic, my comment was drawing a parallel between women being solely responsible for post partum infanticide and men being almost entirely responsible for the murder of young women.
And here we have an example of how to shift the goalposts. You said “the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1”. Yet how come the ONS report said the part I quoted? And you mention normalisation - look at how many under 1s there would be compared to those who are 25-34. There are more 25-29 year olds compare to under 1s as of 2019. As someone said “your interpretation of data is lacking”.
But let’s not get distracted. Infanticide is an issue, yes, but the debate here is about sexual harassment, not murder. Your attitude is like those who claim “all lives matter” - it is avoiding the point and deflecting on the inequalities.
Okay I admit the first paragraph is a mare lol... shouldnt multitask but second paragraph still stands.
Eric Cartman
12-03-21, 17:52
It’s spot on, like with everything shit in this world if people are actively good it’ll make a difference even if it’s just a small difference individually.
What does that mean in practical terms though?
It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.
Okay I admit the first paragraph is a mare lol... shouldnt multitask but second paragraph still stands.
is the debate really about sexual harassment or has it moved on to blaming all men for the actions of a very small minority. We all have wives and sisters, girlfriends and daughters (and unless you're from Swansea, they are usually different people), and we all know they need to be vigilant when out and about because there are sociopaths out there. No one is saying they are on every street corner but in the same breathe no one wants to be a statistic. Moving on from that none of us expect that psychopath to be our friends, brothers, fathers or sons. No one knows who these people are until after it happens because this type of rage and contempt is usually kept quite latent and hidden.
You're conflating two very different issues and I'd hazard a guess that stopping builders wolf whistling at women will have no affect whatsoever on individuals who decide they need to take a life.
Taunton Blue Genie
13-03-21, 09:21
rapists are gonna rape, murderers are gonna murder. There's nothing we can do about that as our punishment of criminals doesn't stop the crime itself.
It's not as absolute as that though, is it? We have already seen in recent decades that changes in society can affect the behaviour of some people even if it is only be degree in some cases. I don't have any facts or statistics to back it up but I would imagine that violent punishment of children by parents has reduced since the sixties - and violence experienced as a child often leaves an imprint that itself may beget violence. In recent years I have assisted in an infants school (helping kids to read) and I have attended a college for evening classes - and just from the very prominent posters and notice boards in both it is obvious that children and young people are being taught to not be concerned about being different and to respect other children they come across who may be different in one way or another.
I think it's all healthy stuff compared to the environment that many of us were brought up in during the sixties where some of us were beaten at home, caned at school and very rarely had a female boss. Bullying was also rife and, in my immediate circle of contacts, very often the worst proponents came from violent homes and/or those who felt like outsiders or inferior in some respects.
It is becoming more unacceptable for males to be dominant in relationships and marriage, which also helps. (I have a friend who delivers courses on such subjects in the Solomon Islands where wife-beating is still very rife).
Yes, some murderers will still murder and some rapists will rape - but to think that the only answer is punishment after the event is not something I could agree with.
What does that mean in practical terms though?
It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.
Does it? Makes a difference from blaming the victims then, eh?
To perhaps disagree with my point earlier, I don't think anyone is asking men to stop the murders or rapes, but earlier it was said men already challenge their friends who are acting like d*cks to which a number disagreed. How many have spoken to their sons about bad behaviour as a preventative measure compared to how many speak to their daughters about being careful? Many women have come up with ideas to make them feel more comfortable but perhaps what they ultimately want is to have to ask the question "is this it?" less frequently. The conversation has clearly widened out from original incident.
ninian opinian
13-03-21, 09:39
This guy gets it.
https://twitter.com/redsarah99/status/1370505900834832393?s=21
This guy gets it.
https://twitter.com/redsarah99/status/1370505900834832393?s=21
In the Daniel Sloss video I referenced earlier he supposed that if every single woman goes to the police there aren't enough police or courts to deal with the problem. Our court system in England and Wales is already fecked (with current government blaming covid and some pointing out problems have existed over the decade before that) so reducing violence full stop (where ever it's directed) would also help women get protection from most serious offenders. More men being arrested for fighting men to protect women isn't going to help either.
Croesy Blue
13-03-21, 10:30
What does that mean in practical terms though?
It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.
So if something doesn’t stop something entirely you shouldn’t bother?
is the debate really about sexual harassment or has it moved on to blaming all men for the actions of a very small minority. We all have wives and sisters, girlfriends and daughters (and unless you're from Swansea, they are usually different people), and we all know they need to be vigilant when out and about because there are sociopaths out there. No one is saying they are on every street corner but in the same breathe no one wants to be a statistic. Moving on from that none of us expect that psychopath to be our friends, brothers, fathers or sons. No one knows who these people are until after it happens because this type of rage and contempt is usually kept quite latent and hidden.
You're conflating two very different issues and I'd hazard a guess that stopping builders wolf whistling at women will have no affect whatsoever on individuals who decide they need to take a life.
The post you responded to says that as men, we can help lessen the issue. It doesn’t blame us or all men.
I admit that as a man, I have privilege and I could do more to help make society better. So I am gonna do more and try to be the change I wanna see. This, like many issues (although these issues are not related), can be helped via individual actions.
You mention builders wolf whistling. That is intimidating and degrading women. That is harassment and creating an unequal society. The murder was an extreme incident but the debate, as I say again, is about sexual harassment in general.
Eric Cartman
13-03-21, 11:13
Does it? Makes a difference from blaming the victims then, eh?
Victim blaming goes on but not every suggestion centred around prevention is 'victim blaming', everybody needs to aware of potential dangers and take precautions appropriate to their own personal risk tolerance. That isn't to say that society at the same time isn't trying to deal with these issues in other ways and it also isn't to say that it isn't a shame that people have to alter their behaviour to mitigate potentially dangerous circumstances but that applies to men as much as it does women.
How many have spoken to their sons about bad behaviour as a preventative measure compared to how many speak to their daughters about being careful?
That is probably a fair point but as a parent (I am not one), I would assume you see the best in your kids and are more likely to expect your daughter to be a victim than your son to be a rapist. In my opinion mothers are probably more likely to put their sons up on a pedestal than dads. If I was an asshole when I was younger my mum would have gone far further to defend me or justify my behaviour than my dad, I don't think she is an outlier.
but earlier it was said men already challenge their friends who are acting like d*cks to which a number disagreed
When I was at uni, a couple of my housemates were in an interesting situation with a girl, she clearly didn't want one of them involved, someone else in the house overheard (thin walls!) and we collectively put a stop to it. I think you are right that this would be considered 'cockblocking' and 'against the male code' by a minority but **** that, there was no real discussion, we all knew what was right. I don't think that is atypical behaviour at all and I think it is doing a disservice to men to suggest that we need to learn how to stop our friends assaulting women.
Eric Cartman
13-03-21, 11:22
So if something doesn’t stop something entirely you shouldn’t bother?
I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.
Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.
Eric Cartman
13-03-21, 11:29
In the Daniel Sloss video I referenced earlier he supposed that if every single woman goes to the police there aren't enough police or courts to deal with the problem. Our court system in England and Wales is already fecked (with current government blaming covid and some pointing out problems have existed over the decade before that) so reducing violence full stop (where ever it's directed) would also help women get protection from most serious offenders. More men being arrested for fighting men to protect women isn't going to help either.
If you want to prevent crime you need to make sure people are likely to be caught and convicted, for these sorts of crimes the numbers don't look great. Our justice system is built around the idea that it is better for a guilty person to go free than it is for an innocent person to go to prison. Rape convictions are low because it's seemingly hard to prove (which makes sense really, unless you are a pretty shit rapist there are unlikely to be witnesses), if you want more convictions you probably have to accept that innocent people are a little bit more likely to go to prison.
Eric Cartman
13-03-21, 11:33
I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.
Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.
I am on twitter for a very specific purpose, certainly wouldn't choose to chat hot topics like this but I caught sight of a graphic which suggested that men were part of the problem if they touched a woman's back with their hand whilst navigating a busy bar. That is an example of this spilling over into the absolutely ridiculous and unfortunately that is the kind of nonsense that will get seized upon by those men who do overstep the mark and are looking to diminish the likelihood of actual positive change.
I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.
Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.
For me, I think this explains what you were thinking with your earlier post much better. There is a risk of this happening but I felt your earlier post was saying we were already there with the discourse that has happened since, which I don't believe is the case.
Despite what Feedback has tried to do, I don't think the conversation happening now is solely about the one incident representing one of the most extreme examples.
I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.
Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.
Went down to Clapham Common with my Press ID - because that’s my job. The bandstand was surrounded on all sides by women - and a few men - fed up, exhausted, let down.
Without question: this gathering at Clapham Common is less Covid safe, more angry and much more radical in terms of the voices dominating it, than if the Met had reached an agreement with #ReclaimTheseStreets for a marshalled events. (Instead, it is led by @SistersUncut)
Lots of women early on did just as the Duchess of C did - come look at the flowers for a bit, make their point, move on. Then it got darker, then Sisters Uncut started leading speeches from the bandstand, then the police moved in. As you’ll have seen from plenty of footage by now
Personal view: speech from the bandstand sounded a lot like contempt of court & will be especially if republished. People are understandably very angry about the suspect’s history in the police. But I worry tonight may be used by his lawyers to question the fairness of any trial
I have also wondered a lot this week about how Sarah Everard’s family actually feel about all of this. They, and her personal friends, are grieving somewhere tonight.
I’m as angry as any other woman, and as determined as any other feminist campaigner to Do Something. But Sarah Everard, the real person, doesn’t actually belong to any of us, you know?
https://twitter.com/KateMaltby/status/1370820967149281290
Might be what you're talking about. Especially as several on twitter are saying the suspect committed the crime which obviously hasn't been determined yet.
haven't followed this story too much but seeing the so called left wing mob causing trouble at the so called silent vigil of Sarah Everard in Clapham common tonight on social media whats all that about ?
haven't followed this story too much but seeing the so called left wing mob causing trouble at the so called silent vigil of Sarah Everard in Clapham common tonight on social media whats all that about ?
You tell us what it's about.
You tell us what it's about.
not sure thats why i,m asking . i see the mayor of london are claiming the scenes in london are unacceptable
It's not as absolute as that though, is it? We have already seen in recent decades that changes in society can affect the behaviour of some people even if it is only be degree in some cases. I don't have any facts or statistics to back it up but I would imagine that violent punishment of children by parents has reduced since the sixties - and violence experienced as a child often leaves an imprint that itself may beget violence. In recent years I have assisted in an infants school (helping kids to read) and I have attended a college for evening classes - and just from the very prominent posters and notice boards in both it is obvious that children and young people are being taught to not be concerned about being different and to respect other children they come across who may be different in one way or another.
I think it's all healthy stuff compared to the environment that many of us were brought up in during the sixties where some of us were beaten at home, caned at school and very rarely had a female boss. Bullying was also rife and, in my immediate circle of contacts, very often the worst proponents came from violent homes and/or those who felt like outsiders or inferior in some respects.
It is becoming more unacceptable for males to be dominant in relationships and marriage, which also helps. (I have a friend who delivers courses on such subjects in the Solomon Islands where wife-beating is still very rife).
Yes, some murderers will still murder and some rapists will rape - but to think that the only answer is punishment after the event is not something I could agree with.
If I've understood your point you're saying that children have never had it so good e.g. no corporal punishment, more inclusion, less bullying. Yet despite all of that the incidents of violent crime and murder per million has increased since the 1960s.
And FWIW, I'm not saying punishment is the only solution. My comment was around the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and this copper who, imho, are predisposed to commit these acts because they are narcissistic and lack empathy for their victims or wider society and don't really see what they are doing as being wrong.
The post you responded to says that as men, we can help lessen the issue. It doesn’t blame us or all men.
when people claim that its a male problem, and if I don't accept that then i'm part of the problem, I can't see how that isn't saying the issue is all men.
I admit that as a man, I have privilege and I could do more to help make society better. So I am gonna do more and try to be the change I wanna see. This, like many issues (although these issues are not related), can be helped via individual actions.
what is this privilege you speak of?
You mention builders wolf whistling. That is intimidating and degrading women. That is harassment and creating an unequal society. The murder was an extreme incident but the debate, as I say again, is about sexual harassment in general.is it intimidating and degrading? Are you speaking for all women here or only the women who dislike it. There are plenty of women who like the attention and don't see it as intimidating and degrading. But we're not allowed to consider them because that doesn't suit the narrative.
you're making this about men v women and it should be about stopping violence in general. Are men more inclined to be violent - I don't think they are. I think its a matter of biology that men are stronger and fitter in general so in any given situation, the man is going to be more dominant and hold the upper hand. So it should come as no surprise that typically its more likely than not that violence between the sexes is more inclined to be male driven. But as a man, I'm not going to be held accountable for the actions of someone else, I can only call it out when I see it.
If you want to prevent crime you need to make sure people are likely to be caught and convicted, for these sorts of crimes the numbers don't look great. Our justice system is built around the idea that it is better for a guilty person to go free than it is for an innocent person to go to prison. Rape convictions are low because it's seemingly hard to prove (which makes sense really, unless you are a pretty shit rapist there are unlikely to be witnesses), if you want more convictions you probably have to accept that innocent people are a little bit more likely to go to prison.
rape convictions are hard because its ultimately one persons word against another. That's not to say rape's don't happen, and conviction is not helped at all by the false claims made by women.
Despite what Feedback has tried to do, I don't think the conversation happening now is solely about the one incident representing one of the most extreme examples.tell me, what have I tried to do?
when people claim that its a male problem, and if I don't accept that then i'm part of the problem, I can't see how that isn't saying the issue is all men.
what is this privilege you speak of?
is it intimidating and degrading? Are you speaking for all women here or only the women who dislike it. There are plenty of women who like the attention and don't see it as intimidating and degrading. But we're not allowed to consider them because that doesn't suit the narrative.
you're making this about men v women and it should be about stopping violence in general. Are men more inclined to be violent - I don't think they are. I think its a matter of biology that men are stronger and fitter in general so in any given situation, the man is going to be more dominant and hold the upper hand. So it should come as no surprise that typically its more likely than not that violence between the sexes is more inclined to be male driven. But as a man, I'm not going to be held accountable for the actions of someone else, I can only call it out when I see it.
You seem to state here that men are no more inclined to be violent and then provide a reason why they are.
You seem to state here that men are no more inclined to be violent and then provide a reason why they are.
that's not what I said, its certainly not what I meant. whilst some men and women are inclined towards violent behaviours, the opportunity to act upon those impulses presents itself to the stronger sex more readily. That should come as no surprise.
haven't followed this story too much but seeing the so called left wing mob causing trouble at the so called silent vigil of Sarah Everard in Clapham common tonight on social media whats all that about ?
Who has called them a left wing mob???
that's not what I said, its certainly not what I meant. whilst some men and women are inclined towards violent behaviours, the opportunity to act upon those impulses presents itself to the stronger sex more readily. That should come as no surprise.
OK, but that’s at the centre of the issue being discussed isn’t it? If the ‘opportunity’ is no surprise, can anything be done?
when people claim that its a male problem, and if I don't accept that then i'm part of the problem, I can't see how that isn't saying the issue is all men.
what is this privilege you speak of?
is it intimidating and degrading? Are you speaking for all women here or only the women who dislike it. There are plenty of women who like the attention and don't see it as intimidating and degrading. But we're not allowed to consider them because that doesn't suit the narrative.
you're making this about men v women and it should be about stopping violence in general. Are men more inclined to be violent - I don't think they are. I think its a matter of biology that men are stronger and fitter in general so in any given situation, the man is going to be more dominant and hold the upper hand. So it should come as no surprise that typically its more likely than not that violence between the sexes is more inclined to be male driven. But as a man, I'm not going to be held accountable for the actions of someone else, I can only call it out when I see it.
So wolf whistling from builders shouldnt be discouraged as we should consider those that like it.😂😂😂😂😂
OK, but that’s at the centre of the issue being discussed isn’t it? If the ‘opportunity’ is no surprise, can anything be done?
you're asking to undo millions of years of evolution. Men are filled with testosterone, there is a reason for that.
statistically speaking a man is more likely to be murdered or suffer a violent assault that a woman. Yet men don't live in fear of other men as a result. We don't automatically assume that if we're walking home at night the man behind must pose a threat. Yet some women are making out there is danger behind every doorway. This is just not the case.
I have no idea what can be done to combat this, and to be honest, very few people offer up any kind of real solution that does not involve some form of male bashing and misandry. We can't go around making assumptions about anyone these days unless of course you a male. Its bigotry and prejudicial.
So wolf whistling from builders shouldnt be discouraged as we should consider those that like it.����������
if that is what you take from that then fair enough, however you're not really taking on board that every women is different and reacts differently in such situations.
Taunton Blue Genie
14-03-21, 10:09
If I've understood your point you're saying that children have never had it so good e.g. no corporal punishment, more inclusion, less bullying. Yet despite all of that the incidents of violent crime and murder per million has increased since the 1960s.
And FWIW, I'm not saying punishment is the only solution. My comment was around the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and this copper who, imho, are predisposed to commit these acts because they are narcissistic and lack empathy for their victims or wider society and don't really see what they are doing as being wrong.
No, you didn't understand my point but not to worry.
haven't followed this story too much but seeing the so called left wing mob causing trouble at the so called silent vigil of Sarah Everard in Clapham common tonight on social media whats all that about ?
Police prevented a peaceful vigil, people gathered peacefully anyway and police countered with heavy handed tactics that really weren't necessary. It was pointed out that Met police are responsibility of Cressinda Dick and Sadiq Khan; it was pointed out that Tory government wants to bring in more extreme laws that make basically ever protest, peaceful or otherwise, illegal; it was pointed out the police had gathered to clap for carers earlier in the year themselves (including Cressinda Dick) breaking lockdown rules.
At same time some more extreme groups - and people not being described as extreme - made statements at the vigil and in describing the vigil which could have put trial at risk. Most of the online statements were then edited when it was brought to their attention.
No left-wing mob. Several vigils around UK without such attention because policed more appropriately. Lot's of noise today about the police with some trying to draw attention back to why there was a vigil in the first place and the discourse that had followed.
you're asking to undo millions of years of evolution. Men are filled with testosterone, there is a reason for that.
I assume that’s a turn of phrase as I think it was clear that I wasn’t asking that.
when people claim that its a male problem, and if I don't accept that then i'm part of the problem, I can't see how that isn't saying the issue is all men.
what is this privilege you speak of?
is it intimidating and degrading? Are you speaking for all women here or only the women who dislike it. There are plenty of women who like the attention and don't see it as intimidating and degrading. But we're not allowed to consider them because that doesn't suit the narrative.
you're making this about men v women and it should be about stopping violence in general. Are men more inclined to be violent - I don't think they are. I think its a matter of biology that men are stronger and fitter in general so in any given situation, the man is going to be more dominant and hold the upper hand. So it should come as no surprise that typically its more likely than not that violence between the sexes is more inclined to be male driven. But as a man, I'm not going to be held accountable for the actions of someone else, I can only call it out when I see it.
In the context of the debate, the privilege I have is that I am less likely to be sexually assaulted or harassed because I am a man. There has been a recent statistic that 97% of women aged 18-24 have been sexually harassed or abused. It is safer for me to be out at night. If you cannot see the male privilege we have, you are either naive or a dickhead who think the world revolves around you.
And I cannot speak for women in general but my friends hate being cat called. It is degrading and it is misogynistic. I can’t ****ing believe I am having with debate with someone
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 11:27
In the context of the debate, the privilege I have is that I am less likely to be sexually assaulted or harassed because I am a man. There has been a recent statistic that 97% of women aged 18-24 have been sexually harassed or abused.
Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.
Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/
Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.
https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 12:11
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/
It is a little bit vague as to where the bar is set but this interested me:
Researchers further reveal that people who were groped, followed and pressured into sexual activity did not find their experience to be “serious enough” to report.
The other two (groped and pressured into sexual activity) are a bit ambiguous but the fact that women who are being followed don't feel comfortable reporting that to police is shocking.
In the context of the debate, the privilege I have is that I am less likely to be sexually assaulted or harassed because I am a man.
so its a privilege not to be assaulted. got it. I'd say it was a human fundamental right but there we are.
There has been a recent statistic that 97% of women aged 18-24 have been sexually harassed or abused. It is safer for me to be out at night. If you cannot see the male privilege we have, you are either naive or a dickhead who think the world revolves around you.
your ad hominem attacks display a real level of maturity. Just because an individual has a difference of opinion to you does not make them a dickhead.
and its hardly safer for men to be out at night. Men are more likely to be assaulted, the victims of knife and other violent crimes and are more likely to be murdered. That doesn't suit the narrative though.
And I cannot speak for women in general but my friends hate being cat called. It is degrading and it is misogynistic. I can’t ****ing believe I am having with debate with someone just because your friends dislike being catcalled does not mean all women do. As I have said some women enjoy the attention. you seem to live in this bubble where you think the world is homogenous and everyone lives according to the experiences you and your friends share. I'd suggest you learn to open your horizons and see that the world extends beyond your own experiences. This isn't a perfect world, but its far from as black and white as you are making.
https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now
what does sexual harassment constitute in this context? Because if 97% of women are experiencing attempted rape in a public place, that is a very different situation that needs addressing from 97% of women experiencing being whistled at. The article provides no context to what the experiences are.
edit: my bad, page 13 of the report that is linked provides some context.
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 12:15
Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.
Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:20
Anecdotal I know but I’d say every woman I know has at the very least been grabbed in a club. And that’s on top of people being weirdos on the tube or other things like that.
And completely ignoring how much more likely a woman is to suffer from domestic abuse.
Maybe it’s just me but I’ve never felt uncomfortable walking home at 4am but every girl I know would at least get a taxi and ever then feel uncomfortable.
Surely people aren’t debating that something should be done to make this better.
I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.
No one is saying “all men” are bad either, coming back with “I’m not like this” and “not all men are like this” is missing the point completely.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:21
Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.
Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?
I think there are much less extreme things you can do to make yourself not seem like a threat.
But I can also understand a women feeling uncomfortable with someone walking closely behind them, that can be avoided just with common sense can’t it.
Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.
Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?
this is something I, and a lot of other men, already do. you end up walking at a comically fast pace to get passed the woman.
Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.
Can't find any source material though
I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.
you've missed the point. Some women are whipping up hysteria saying they don't feel safe outside, whereas despite the statistics showing men are more likely to be a victim, men don't feel unsafe at all.
You'd be quite happy walking home from town on your own, whereas a woman would not. This goes against logic when you take on board you're more likely to be the victim of an assault than any woman. Why is that? Its a serious question
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 12:30
Anecdotal I know but I’d say every woman I know has at the very least been grabbed in a club. And that’s on top of people being weirdos on the tube or other things like that.
And completely ignoring how much more likely a woman is to suffer from domestic abuse.
Maybe it’s just me but I’ve never felt uncomfortable walking home at 4am but every girl I know would at least get a taxi and ever then feel uncomfortable.
Surely people aren’t debating that something should be done to make this better.
I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.
No one is saying “all men” are bad either, coming back with “I’m not like this” and “not all men are like this” is missing the point completely.
The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.
This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:31
Is that just total assaults that happen though? Or is it Im more likely to be attacked walking home?
I’d say in a fight in a pub men are more likely to be involved in assaults, or at events. And something does need to be done about that.
But is it actually just as likely for me to be assaulted when I’m out walking or when I’m walking home after a night out? Or when I’m sitting on public transport?
I’d say it’s 2 separate issues and conflating them probably doesn’t help either case.
Is that just total assaults that happen though? Or is it Im more likely to be attacked walking home?
I’d say in a fight in a pub men are more likely to be involved in assaults, or at events. And something does need to be done about that.
But is it actually just as likely for me to be assaulted when I’m out walking or when I’m walking home after a night out? Or when I’m sitting on public transport?
I’d say it’s 2 separate issues and conflating them probably doesn’t help either case.
I have no idea, I've not seen the stats broken down by where the assaults occurred, so its a valid point.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:33
The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.
This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.
I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.
It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.
I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 12:35
this is something I, and a lot of other men, already do. you end up walking at a comically fast pace to get passed the woman.
It has never crossed my mind that a woman might think I am going to rape her just because I am occupying the same stretch of pavement, how the feck did we end up here? It's really sad.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:35
I have no idea, I've not seen the stats broken down by where the assaults occurred, so its a valid point.
It’s just a complete guess on my part but I’ve been had my nose broken twice by drunk duck heads in a bar for no reason so I’d say that is more likely to be the type of assault men are caught up in. I’m not downplaying it, it’s bad but it’s a different ball game to being grabbed by someone on your walk home.
Plus being a big bloke it’s much easier to think you at least stand a chance of getting out of it in a better shape.
Eric Cartman
14-03-21, 12:39
I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.
It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.
I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.
I generally don't really see anything I could change, I am pretty quiet (it's always the quiet ones!), keep myself to myself and have on occasions tried to intervene if I have seen anything bad going on. One instance that springs to mind was witnessing a couple in quite a heated physical encounter late at night and then getting screamed at to feck off by the women when I crossed the street to ask if everybody was alright. It is quite hard to get this shit right in reality.
I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.
It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.
I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.
I tell you what doesn't help....the outpouring of criticism of #notallmen or whatever it was. There was a clear trend of men pointing out that they would not behave this way and they wouldn't treat women in this way yet despite this it was immediately turned around as some sort of negative.
certain women continually saying the problem is men, when what they mean is some men. They call for education of men but you are I never needed educating yet we know how to behave.
Consequently the approach adopted by these women means that some men entrench because they want nothing to do with being associated with this copper and others like him. Then this starts a whole different debate of male v female with some then arguing you're part of the problem if you don't accept their opinion. We've seen it in this thread.
I don't know any male who thinks its acceptable for women to be subject to sexual harassment, or to feel threatened just by being out at night. In my opinion it would help the situation immensely if women knew that the vast majority of men aren't a threat, and when some men publicly advertise this fact, it should be welcomed not criticised.
It’s just a complete guess on my part but I’ve been had my nose broken twice by drunk duck heads in a bar for no reason so I’d say that is more likely to be the type of assault men are caught up in. I’m not downplaying it, it’s bad but it’s a different ball game to being grabbed by someone on your walk home.
Plus being a big bloke it’s much easier to think you at least stand a chance of getting out of it in a better shape.
therein lies the rub. most men are confident enough to believe they can at least have a chance because they'll be equivalent size, weight and reach as their assailant. Its why we have divisions in boxing. a 5ft 4 women weighing 8 stone hasn't got much chance against a 14 stone 6 footer.
This is why men don't feel scared of venturing outside and don't really give it a second thought.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 12:44
That’s the whole point isn’t it I think, it isn’t really as much of a worry for us as it is to them.
That’s the whole point isn’t it I think
but is it right? we live in the most inclusive prosperous equal society ever in human history, yet here we are saying some women should be free to prejudge men in this way. As Eric Cartman said, its not right that a woman thinks you or I are a potential rapist just because we're male. If we prejudged anyone else in society in this way we'd rightly be called out for the bigotry that this is.
you've missed the point. Some women are whipping up hysteria saying they don't feel safe outside, whereas despite the statistics showing men are more likely to be a victim, men don't feel unsafe at all.
You'd be quite happy walking home from town on your own, whereas a woman would not. This goes against logic when you take on board you're more likely to be the victim of an assault than any woman. Why is that? Its a serious question
With these stats in mind why do you sometimes walk comically fast past them?
With these stats in mind why do you sometimes walk comically fast past them?
Empathy. Do you want to be considered a threat, because I don't
Empathy. Do you want to be considered a threat, because I don't
It’s just seemed you were making a case that women’s fear is unfounded whilst doing something yourself that acknowledges that it exists.
I do exactly the same.
It’s just seemed you were making a case that women’s fear is unfounded whilst doing something yourself that acknowledges that it exists.
I do exactly the same.
women's fear is (generally) unfounded, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that fear, even if its not rational.
Heisenberg
14-03-21, 13:22
In my opinion it would help the situation immensely if women knew that the vast majority of men aren't a threat, and when some men publicly advertise this fact, it should be welcomed not criticised.
Haven't got really anything to add to this debate other than to respond to this point that you've made.
I'm not arguing with what you've said, just giving a differing opinion.
I'd hazard a guess that every person who has committed the types of acts discussed in this thread has at one time or another tried to advertise that they aren't a threat to women. Surely that's part of the act?
They're not going to say "watch out, I'm a potential rapist!" are they?
Men apparently posting on social media that they aren't a threat to women just makes the argument it a bit worse, in my opinion, as I'd also guess that a lot of women have a story about a guy that they know who seemed like he wasn't a threat... but suddenly was.
I don't feel the need to advertise that I'm not a monster that women should be afraid of. I'll just go about my life showing that I'm not.
That's my thoughts anyway.
women's fear is (generally) unfounded, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that fear, even if its not rational.
OK, most fear is ultimately unfounded. I think we’re agreeing that doesn’t mean it’s not genuinely experienced.
Haven't got really anything to add to this debate other than to respond to this point that you've made.
I'm not arguing with what you've said, just giving a differing opinion.
I'd hazard a guess that every person who has committed the types of acts discussed in this thread has at one time or another tried to advertise that they aren't a threat to women. Surely that's part of the act?
They're not going to say "watch out, I'm a potential rapist!" are they?
Men apparently posting on social media that they aren't a threat to women just makes the argument it a bit worse, in my opinion, as I'd also guess that a lot of women have a story about a guy that they know who seemed like he wasn't a threat... but suddenly was.
I don't feel the need to advertise that I'm not a monster that women should be afraid of. I'll just go about my life showing that I'm not.
That's my thoughts anyway.
that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?
Heisenberg
14-03-21, 14:28
that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?
I feel the same way about it as I feel about people from ethnic minorities who think that all white people are a threat to them...
I don't believe that they all think this way - although it appears that a lot, albeit a small proportion of the population of those specific groups do.
I don't know how to change the opinions of those who do - maybe there is literally nothing that can be done.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 14:49
I don’t think women do think most men are a threat I think it’s missing the point to think that and people don’t need to worry about women thinking they’re a threat.
It’s not about individuals it’s about situations and women feeling vulnerable in them. It’s often not the extremes of being attacked or being raped but being in uncomfortable situations which feel like they could lead to it andI’m afraid to say happen a lot more than you’d think to women.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 14:51
that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?
A lot of people just need to check their behaviour. You see it all the time and we’ve probably all done something to make someone feel uncomfortable when we didn’t mean to. It isn’t about doing something specific it’s just understanding how other people feel and why.
I think people are worrying too much about the wrong things here.
ninian opinian
14-03-21, 14:51
Which one is Feedback :biggrin:
4359
The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.
This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.
Earlier on I asked how many sons are spoken to regarding what is good behaviour towards others compared to how many daughters get a talk about what to do to make them safe. As far as I can tell there was one answer which agreed sons don't get that conversation, as well as trying to explain it's because we don't want to see our sons in a negative light. You're now saying it's not needed but several on here had described experience of where men act like d*cks to women.
Marina Hyde wrote an article about her own harassment which happened this week in which she tried to get attention of two men to help her when the harasser was coming towards her and they did nothing: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street
She also remarked that she had to triage and judge how seriously to take the aggressor. It's not just about stopping people like this suspect but stopping the need for such regular triage.
Or we can pretend nothing can be done because what's going to happen is always going to happen.
Croesy Blue
14-03-21, 15:04
We should also accept as a forum of mainly man it’s probably not the best to be saying the statistics show you’ve not got anything to worry about :hehe:
Sometimes we have to accept as men we probably don’t understand what it’s like. Rather than say “you’re being hysterical” when I bet every women we know would have something anecdotal to back this up.
so its a privilege not to be assaulted. got it. I'd say it was a human fundamental right but there we are.
your ad hominem attacks display a real level of maturity. Just because an individual has a difference of opinion to you does not make them a dickhead.
and its hardly safer for men to be out at night. Men are more likely to be assaulted, the victims of knife and other violent crimes and are more likely to be murdered. That doesn't suit the narrative though.
just because your friends dislike being catcalled does not mean all women do. As I have said some women enjoy the attention. you seem to live in this bubble where you think the world is homogenous and everyone lives according to the experiences you and your friends share. I'd suggest you learn to open your horizons and see that the world extends beyond your own experiences. This isn't a perfect world, but its far from as black and white as you are making.
Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?
And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.
And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.
And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.
Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?
And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.
And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.
And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.
*third paragraph, not tongued
Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?
And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.
And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.
And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.
I'm not sure how any of what I have written is patronising. And you're twisting what is being said to form a completely different narrative.
You're coming across as a very angry young man. Have a spliff and chill the **** out.
We should also accept as a forum of mainly man it’s probably not the best to be saying the statistics show you’ve not got anything to worry about :hehe:
Sometimes we have to accept as men we probably don’t understand what it’s like. Rather than say “you’re being hysterical” when I bet every women we know would have something anecdotal to back this up.
Hysterical was a poor choice of word. Irrational in its truest sense would have been better.
What us men can do is offer empathy, and intervene if we see anti social behaviour.
I'm not sure how any of what I have written is patronising. And you're twisting what is being said to form a completely different narrative.
You're coming across as a very angry young man. Have a spliff and chill the **** out.
Read the last paragraph and tell me that you aren’t patronising. And now you are on about different narratives. Hypocrite.
Read the last paragraph and tell me that you aren’t patronising. And now you are on about different narratives. Hypocrite.
You are an angry young man. Learn to deal with it adz
You are an angry young man. Learn to deal with it adz
:hehe:
SLUDGE FACTORY
14-03-21, 19:56
Physique wise middle weights are the business
None of this gym freak nonsense
Total power , flexibility, tone , strength , stamina
Some of these heavyweights , after they have finished mouthing off pre fight , look knackered after 6 rounds
He's a big fella and if he caught you he would hurt you but Tyson fury is carrying a load
Ali was fantastic but watching hagler , hearns , Leonard slugging it out and still foxing at 12 rounds shows what incredible athletes these fellas were and are
Tremendous dedication
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.