View Full Version : Working from Home.
A Quiet Monkfish
16-06-21, 13:27
NatWest said just over a third of its 59,300 UK full-time employees would continue to work remotely. Some 55% of its staff would adopt a hybrid model of working between the office and home.
NatWest chief executive, Alison Rose, said leaders would hold conversations with staff over the summer about which category they fall into.
"I would say that we've busted the myth that jobs need to be done in a certain way," she previously told staff. "We have learnt new ways of working and it's important we carry those learnings forward."
I can understand someone working in central London being pleased not to have an hour's commute every day, but I do wonder if those people who see this as a workplace panacea aren't being a little naive. If you can work from home, so can someone else in another country. In the 90's we saw the almost complete export of call centres to countries with much lower wage costs - I reckon with banking, finance, a lot of retail, all going online, it will be a lot easier for the likes of Alison Rose & Nat West to do the same.
The Hooded Claw
16-06-21, 15:30
Financial Services is highly regulated, though, so maybe some roles can't be carried out overseas.
I'm starting back at Nationwide next week and whilst they have remote working, you have to remain in the UK (incl. Nor'n Ireland).
Saying that, my wife is at Lloyds and one member of her team works from Thailand!
Optimistic Nick
16-06-21, 18:36
Financial Services is highly regulated, though, so maybe some roles can't be carried out overseas.
I'm starting back at Nationwide next week and whilst they have remote working, you have to remain in the UK (incl. Nor'n Ireland).
Saying that, my wife is at Lloyds and one member of her team works from Thailand!
That will be the rule anywhere with a tax dept. The payroll tax and social security issues with allowing a workforce to work where they like can be a nightmare- not to mention the possiblity of the company itself having a corporate tax liability in a country where their employees work. And if you don't spot that liability- in some countries that is a criminal offence, not just a matter of financial penalties.
mazadona10
16-06-21, 19:01
I agree it's very short sighted from these businesses. The high Street is in decline enough I think keeping people at home will further destroy another sector. Yes it will be good for emissions and road congestion but as a relatively small country we are only such a small contributor to the problem.
Ive been working from home and I'm starting to get used to it but for those younger and looking back on myself being surrounded by people in an office everyday really helped my confidence as a young adult.
EastbourneBlue
16-06-21, 19:09
NatWest said just over a third of its 59,300 UK full-time employees would continue to work remotely. Some 55% of its staff would adopt a hybrid model of working between the office and home.
NatWest chief executive, Alison Rose, said leaders would hold conversations with staff over the summer about which category they fall into.
"I would say that we've busted the myth that jobs need to be done in a certain way," she previously told staff. "We have learnt new ways of working and it's important we carry those learnings forward."
I can understand someone working in central London being pleased not to have an hour's commute every day, but I do wonder if those people who see this as a workplace panacea aren't being a little naive. If you can work from home, so can someone else in another country. In the 90's we saw the almost complete export of call centres to countries with much lower wage costs - I reckon with banking, finance, a lot of retail, all going online, it will be a lot easier for the likes of Alison Rose & Nat West to do the same.
Just say it, truth is the people who want to work from home are slackers
OurManFlint II
16-06-21, 20:16
I agree it's very short sighted from these businesses. The high Street is in decline enough I think keeping people at home will further destroy another sector. Yes it will be good for emissions and road congestion but as a relatively small country we are only such a small contributor to the problem.
Ive been working from home and I'm starting to get used to it but for those younger and looking back on myself being surrounded by people in an office everyday really helped my confidence as a young adult.
The high street is in decline because online companies can charge lower costs as they don't pay tax. The high street is in decline because people don't have time to go shopping because they all have to work in the gig economy jobs for these online companies to make ends meet.
Basic income, mass automation and removal of middle management bullsh1t jobs. People will have disposable income and time, high street will be alive :thumbup:
Poolerblue
16-06-21, 20:39
Guarantee this won’t last long. We tried it in my company 6 years ago. It was ok at first but after a year or so people started taking the piss and it caused a huge amount of ill feeling with people who had to go into the office everyday
One person very nearly got sacked for posting pictures on Facebook when he should have been working
Eventually we all had to go back to office working
Des Parrot
16-06-21, 22:26
We’ve now written it into our contracts. It’s improved efficiency through giving people more flexibility, which is really important for a global company. I’ve heard the phrase too busy to go to work a few times recently, which applies to me as well. Some days I work 16 hours, the next day I can do 3 or 4.
splott parker
17-06-21, 05:33
The
We’ve now written it into our contracts. It’s improved efficiency through giving people more flexibility, which is really important for a global company. I’ve heard the phrase too busy to go to work a few times recently, which applies to me as well. Some days I work 16 hours, the next day I can do 3 or 4.
I’d work every other day if I was you Des:hehe:
WJ99mobile
17-06-21, 07:17
I agree it's very short sighted from these businesses. The high Street is in decline enough I think keeping people at home will further destroy another sector. Yes it will be good for emissions and road congestion but as a relatively small country we are only such a small contributor to the problem.
Ive been working from home and I'm starting to get used to it but for those younger and looking back on myself being surrounded by people in an office everyday really helped my confidence as a young adult.
Why should Natwest care about the highstreet?
FormerlyJohnnyBreadhead
17-06-21, 07:25
Guarantee this won’t last long. We tried it in my company 6 years ago. It was ok at first but after a year or so people started taking the piss and it caused a huge amount of ill feeling with people who had to go into the office everyday
One person very nearly got sacked for posting pictures on Facebook when he should have been working
Eventually we all had to go back to office working
It depends obviously on the nature of the job itself, but also on the culture of the company and the quality of management. People now have different expectations and priorities around work, yet some boardrooms and managers are still stuck in the 1970s.
For instance, my current company promotes autonomy and is more preoccupied with the quality and punctuality of my output than how many hours I've sat in front of my laptop for. My previous employer, on the other hand, spied on staff and prioritised suspicion over support (as a colleague said at the time: if you have to monitor people to ensure that they're doing their job, then you've already failed as a manager).
With that in mind, I'd say there's still ground to be made for a lot of companies, but the flexibility of remote/hybrid working is a big thing for younger generations and I expect it to now be the norm going forward. Companies will have to adapt to what people want and change their attitudes, or risk losing out on talent, especially in sectors like tech and IT.
A Quiet Monkfish
17-06-21, 07:50
Just say it, truth is the people who want to work from home are slackers
Well, there must be an element of truth in that, however from what little I've gleaned from people who are WFH is that they're 'monitored' on their daily activity - not exactly my idea of fun. The extrapolation from that is my main point, ie, these are jobs that could in many cases be easily moved overseas.
The Lone Gunman
17-06-21, 08:41
The extrapolation from that is my main point, ie, these are jobs that could in many cases be easily moved overseas.
Lest we forget that this time last year you were predicting hardly anybody would have a job left by now anyway.
:thumbup:
life on mars
17-06-21, 08:47
I'm waiting for the big data breach or hack due folk working from home effecting the likes of big companies
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 10:44
NatWest said just over a third of its 59,300 UK full-time employees would continue to work remotely. Some 55% of its staff would adopt a hybrid model of working between the office and home.
NatWest chief executive, Alison Rose, said leaders would hold conversations with staff over the summer about which category they fall into.
"I would say that we've busted the myth that jobs need to be done in a certain way," she previously told staff. "We have learnt new ways of working and it's important we carry those learnings forward."
I can understand someone working in central London being pleased not to have an hour's commute every day, but I do wonder if those people who see this as a workplace panacea aren't being a little naive. If you can work from home, so can someone else in another country. In the 90's we saw the almost complete export of call centres to countries with much lower wage costs - I reckon with banking, finance, a lot of retail, all going online, it will be a lot easier for the likes of Alison Rose & Nat West to do the same.
What? You don't think people working from home was always on the cards? Do you seriously think people going to offices (increasing costs of renting for companies) is going to save jobs? People working from home is going to save jobs. Funny thing is, I just got a job in London, on London wages, but I will be based in South Wales. I may have to go to London now and then and if it gets crap, I can apply for a job anywhere in the UK without leaving my house or moving the family, or spending time away.
We live once. Why waste it in a car burning dinosaurs, listening to Radio 5 and looking at someone's bumper in the pouring rain? Just because you are scared of change, doesn't mean it won't happen.
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 10:46
Well, there must be an element of truth in that, however from what little I've gleaned from people who are WFH is that they're 'monitored' on their daily activity - not exactly my idea of fun. The extrapolation from that is my main point, ie, these are jobs that could in many cases be easily moved overseas.
Christ, where are you posting from? 1938?
I've worked from home for years, can start earlier, get more done. The office was where slacking happened. Meetings for no reason, chats in the kitchen, chats in the car park, chats in the smoking shelter, chats at the desk. My company will know if I am slacking because things won't get done.
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 10:47
I'm waiting for the big data breach or hack due folk working from home effecting the likes of big companies
Such hacks are not down to location, but poor security infrastructure at a company. Someone working at home with RSA Tokens, Private Networks and strong passwords are not the reason for a hack.
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 10:49
Guarantee this won’t last long. We tried it in my company 6 years ago. It was ok at first but after a year or so people started taking the piss and it caused a huge amount of ill feeling with people who had to go into the office everyday
One person very nearly got sacked for posting pictures on Facebook when he should have been working
Eventually we all had to go back to office working
When I worked in an office, I had one bloke next to me watching Cricket, one girl opposite on Facebook and another bloke fiddling the flexi system. People slack, let them. I keep my head down, do the work, and progress.
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 10:53
I agree it's very short sighted from these businesses. The high Street is in decline enough I think keeping people at home will further destroy another sector. Yes it will be good for emissions and road congestion but as a relatively small country we are only such a small contributor to the problem.
Ive been working from home and I'm starting to get used to it but for those younger and looking back on myself being surrounded by people in an office everyday really helped my confidence as a young adult.
The same highstreet where huge companies like Debenhams swallowed up independent retailers you mean? The same sector that is now crying foul because of retail evolution and bigger sharks like Amazon, you mean? The same sector that didn't adapt to on-line retail in time, you mean?
The highstreet is failing because it is expensive, unnecessary, and outdated.
Optimistic Nick
17-06-21, 10:59
The high street is in decline because online companies can charge lower costs as they don't pay tax.
It is actually the other way around: they can afford to run at a loss or at no profit, and as such don't pay tax.
The "no tax" thing is really a byproduct of the actual problem. The actual problem is the US multinationals can and do run at a loss to kill off competition, because they can afford to. And tax aside: online retail has a lower cost base than bricks and mortar retail anyway, so even if an online retailer and a traditional retailer targeted the same profit margin, the online retailer could charge a lower price and so over time you'd see the high street wither (these are all obviously very general comments!).
But the large online retailers - well, Amazon - killing off markets because they can afford it is the biggest problem. The percentage of shopping journeys that start on Amazon is frightening. The global response is a decade too late/slow. Corporate income taxes are driven by profit. How do governments respond to companies who's policy is to run parts of its business at no profit for years on end?
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 11:11
"Hey guys, we need you back in the office"
"Why?"
"Because Greggs are struggling without office workers coming in, it's a loss to the economy"
"But, I still buy lunch everyday. Just not at Gregg's. I buy them at John's place in my town"
"Ah, but there's the problem. Greggs has a CEO who is a funder of political parties. What he says goes"
Sod that.
Fatty Thornton
17-06-21, 11:25
What? You don't think people working from home was always on the cards? Do you seriously think people going to offices (increasing costs of renting for companies) is going to save jobs? People working from home is going to save jobs. Funny thing is, I just got a job in London, on London wages, but I will be based in South Wales. I may have to go to London now and then and if it gets crap, I can apply for a job anywhere in the UK without leaving my house or moving the family, or spending time away.
We live once. Why waste it in a car burning dinosaurs, listening to Radio 5 and looking at someone's bumper in the pouring rain? Just because you are scared of change, doesn't mean it won't happen.
Similar story, started a European role back in April 2020, home based but expectancy that I'd be travelling once a week around Western Europe and away a couple of nights a week. We adapted to COVID-19 very quickly and now anyone outside of a physical operation is working at home and we'll likely stay that way, with occasional travel. Similarly many roles I see advertised are now UK-based with occasional office visit as opposed to a physical location. Can only be a good thing.
I've loved being at home more and spending time with family, and the fact that as long as the work gets done to deadlines, I can do it when I like. Obvious caveats around what sector you're in, but for back office or commercial functions, can only think it's a good thing.
Taunton Blue Genie
17-06-21, 11:47
It's not necessary that binary in deciding whether to go into work or to work from home: many people now appreciate the advantage of a hybrid system whereby we can have a mixture of both options.
the other bob wilson
17-06-21, 12:44
I think it’s a fair point about the possibility of UK home workers being replaced by cheaper, foreign Labour, but I worked from home for three and a half days a week all through the noughties and had to work to an increased target as a trade off for doing so. I’ll not lie, there’d be afternoons where I’d be sat down drinking a cup of tea and watching a test match, but only because I’d worked really hard in the morning to clear my desk so to speak. Also, I couldn’t nip out to do some shopping/go for a pint etc because my phone would ring in the office and so they would have known if I’d gone out. Working from home isn’t for everyone, but I was grateful for it and I used to like going into the office a lot more than I did when I was there every day, but because of the “social side” of office life, I got a lot more done at home than I ever did in the office.
I think we'll look at a hybrid model which will just about keep everyone happy.
But if they want people enthusiastic about returning to the office they should consider why people don't want to. For those using the road system I'm sure they're sick of endless traffic and for those using public transport I'm sure they're sick of the cost, the crowding and randomness of when the service will turn up.
Lot's of good reasons to go back in but there's certainly things that can be improved upon.
Optimistic Nick
17-06-21, 13:55
I think we'll look at a hybrid model which will just about keep everyone happy.
But if they want people enthusiastic about returning to the office they should consider why people don't want to. For those using the road system I'm sure they're sick of endless traffic and for those using public transport I'm sure they're sick of the cost, the crowding and randomness of when the service will turn up.
Lot's of good reasons to go back in but there's certainly things that can be improved upon.
I agree. - but who is "they" here? Govt? I think employers themselves need to think too. An office now has to provide more than just a work space. It has to offer something extra- collaboration being the obvious one. It costs me about £30 and 2 hours of my day every time I go in, so I only do it about twice a week and I choose those days carefully.
It's not necessary that binary in deciding whether to go into work or to work from home: many people now appreciate the advantage of a hybrid system whereby we can have a mixture of both options.
It's nice to see work colleagues regularly, though.
It's nice to see work colleagues regularly, though.
Work colleagues, you say? Yes, in my experience work colleagues are the best sort of colleagues. I'm sure I read TBG saying something very similar about work colleagues in the past. He always has good things to say about his former work colleagues. :thumbup: :hehe:
Taunton Blue Genie
17-06-21, 15:39
It's nice to see work colleagues regularly, though.
I would prefer to stay home and see more of my family relatives :hehe:
A Quiet Monkfish
17-06-21, 15:42
The same highstreet where huge companies like Debenhams swallowed up independent retailers you mean? The same sector that is now crying foul because of retail evolution and bigger sharks like Amazon, you mean? The same sector that didn't adapt to on-line retail in time, you mean?
The highstreet is failing because it is expensive, unnecessary, and outdated.
Re. your 3 replies to my post, I think you're completely missing the point. Anyway. Change doesn't bother me, I've lived a full life so far, and apart from the occasional daily 15 minutes on CCMB etc., I've done things that nowadays admittedly seem 'outdated'. Like shopping for food and clothing etc., in real places, meeting real people. Talking to real people face-to-face, seeing what they look like below their shoulders. Meeting work. business colleagues, nights out, actually going out each and every day having different experiences, the same with the Missus, swapping notes. Of course, I could now do all that looking a screen no bigger than a fag packet, without leaving my bedroom - maybe my bed.
You post rude aggressive replies to a perfectly reasonable opinion, and assume that you are correct, better able to judge, and I am some sort of dinosaur. The irony is lost on you, no doubt.
Allez Allez Allez
17-06-21, 20:38
Re. your 3 replies to my post, I think you're completely missing the point. Anyway. Change doesn't bother me, I've lived a full life so far, and apart from the occasional daily 15 minutes on CCMB etc., I've done things that nowadays admittedly seem 'outdated'. Like shopping for food and clothing etc., in real places, meeting real people. Talking to real people face-to-face, seeing what they look like below their shoulders. Meeting work. business colleagues, nights out, actually going out each and every day having different experiences, the same with the Missus, swapping notes. Of course, I could now do all that looking a screen no bigger than a fag packet, without leaving my bedroom - maybe my bed.
You post rude aggressive replies to a perfectly reasonable opinion, and assume that you are correct, better able to judge, and I am some sort of dinosaur. The irony is lost on you, no doubt.
I only replied twice and you were the one labelling productive people like myself slackers for being able to work from home without adult supervision. Something you obviously require.
Yes, everyone who works from home does nothing but stay at home all day. We crave a life of meeting old Mrs. Muggles in the pasta aisle in Tesco.
My opinion is perfectly reasonable, clogging roads up with cars is so last year.
Taunton Blue Genie
17-06-21, 22:11
There's a difference with being 'somewhere' and being available within certain stipulated hours and completing tasks that one's job entails, of course.
Des Parrot
17-06-21, 22:41
With that in mind, I'd say there's still ground to be made for a lot of companies, but the flexibility of remote/hybrid working is a big thing for younger generations and I expect it to now be the norm going forward. Companies will have to adapt to what people want and change their attitudes, or risk losing out on talent, especially in sectors like tech and IT.
This is spot on, if you don’t offer it then you lose out on potential staff, we’re currently recruiting hundreds across the EU and it’s always amongst the first set of questions. We’re letting our Finance, Purchasing, IT people have hybrid contracts
A Quiet Monkfish
18-06-21, 08:10
I only replied twice and you were the one labelling productive people like myself slackers for being able to work from home without adult supervision. Something you obviously require.
Yes, everyone who works from home does nothing but stay at home all day. We crave a life of meeting old Mrs. Muggles in the pasta aisle in Tesco.
My opinion is perfectly reasonable, clogging roads up with cars is so last year.
Eastbourne blue posted 'slackers'. You missed, and still missed completely the point I was making. Others understood and replied accordingly. Excitable little chap ain't you !
Allez Allez Allez
19-06-21, 14:56
Eastbourne blue posted 'slackers'.
And you said
Well, there must be an element of truth in that, however from what little I've gleaned from people who are WFH is that they're 'monitored' on their daily activity - not exactly my idea of fun. The extrapolation from that is my main point, ie, these are jobs that could in many cases be easily moved overseas.
I do wonder what your job is/was. I suspect it wasn't managerial but, if it was, I suspect you were one of those managers that micro-managed everyone and treated them like kids and then felt justified when they were worn down enough to start taking the piss.
You made a supposition that jobs would move abroad because people can do the jobs anywhere. You then backed up your lack of logical thought with a claim that was equally illogical. That if people went from back to the office, somehow these jobs would become protected. These people have been doing these jobs at home for 18 months. Do you really think that people going back to the office (extra real estate costs for the companies) now is going to make it less likely for companies to outsource?
Do you think that companies who have moved production to China, South East Asia and East Europe over the last 10-20 years did so because all the factory workers were working from home.
You are talking out of your arse, an habit it seems you are incapable of kicking. Clueless.
A Quiet Monkfish
19-06-21, 15:44
And you said
I do wonder what your job is/was. I suspect it wasn't managerial but, if it was, I suspect you were one of those managers that micro-managed everyone and treated them like kids and then felt justified when they were worn down enough to start taking the piss.
You made a supposition that jobs would move abroad because people can do the jobs anywhere. You then backed up your lack of logical thought with a claim that was equally illogical. That if people went from back to the office, somehow these jobs would become protected. These people have been doing these jobs at home for 18 months. Do you really think that people going back to the office (extra real estate costs for the companies) now is going to make it less likely for companies to outsource?
Do you think that companies who have moved production to China, South East Asia and East Europe over the last 10-20 years did so because all the factory workers were working from home.
You are talking out of your arse, an habit it seems you are incapable of kicking. Clueless.
You're losing it, son. Calm down and enjoy life..
You're losing it, son. Calm down and enjoy life..
Usually replying this or "stop taking the board so seriously" means someone's lost the argument
Little wonder the UK's productivity is far below some countries. British managers are far more concerned about the hours staff put in rather than their output. If people can meet their targets in as short a time as possible, do we really need snoopers to insist the full quota of hours are completed?
Usually replying this or "stop taking the board so seriously" means someone's lost the argument
Stop being so serious, Delm.
Usually replying this or "stop taking the board so seriously" means someone's lost the argument
Oi!! You 'aving a dig sonny? 🤣😀
Stop being so serious, Delm.
You need to calm down and enjoy life m8
Allez Allez Allez
19-06-21, 21:35
You're losing it, son. Calm down and enjoy life..
I'm perfectly calm, dad, and am enjoying life. I don't need to spend 10-15 hours traveling to work a week, I don't need to spend £50 on fuel every week, I can start work when I like, and finish when I like. I am not constantly monitored (last time I experienced this was actually in an office), I don't get to hear people's boring life/love/health stories.
Your suggestion is that people should throw all this away because one day our jobs will be gone. It's based on nothing but being an old twat, and is probably based on no experience of management at all. I know a few people who can only function by having people telling them what to do every single hour. As a manager, I know who is slacking because it becomes pretty obvious. I don't need to be sat in an office with them to manage them, and they don't need to sit with me to be managed.
Needless to say, you probably wouldn't last very long in any team I managed because you aren't exactly innovative or forward thinking are you?
Allez Allez Allez
19-06-21, 21:44
Little wonder the UK's productivity is far below some countries. British managers are far more concerned about the hours staff put in rather than their output. If people can meet their targets in as short a time as possible, do we really need snoopers to insist the full quota of hours are completed?
When I first started work as a data entry clerk, I used to get my daily work done by 1pm. The result was, I would then have to do the work others hadn't finished because they'd been gossiping, doing quizzes, smoking while I'd been working. After a few weeks of that, I decided to slow my pace down so that I finished and did the same amount of work as everyone else. Had managers sent me home after I finished as a reward, I guarantee the others would have matched my efforts.
I'm perfectly calm, dad, and am enjoying life. I don't need to spend 10-15 hours traveling to work a week, I don't need to spend £50 on fuel every week, I can start work when I like, and finish when I like. I am not constantly monitored (last time I experienced this was actually in an office), I don't get to hear people's boring life/love/health stories.
Your suggestion is that people should throw all this away because one day our jobs will be gone. It's based on nothing but being an old twat, and is probably based on no experience of management at all. I know a few people who can only function by having people telling them what to do every single hour. As a manager, I know who is slacking because it becomes pretty obvious. I don't need to be sat in an office with them to manage them, and they don't need to sit with me to be managed.
Needless to say, you probably wouldn't last very long in any team I managed because you aren't exactly innovative or forward thinking are you?
:thumbup: particularly liked the bit about not having to listen to peoples boring bullshit. I work on my own and it's absolute bliss.
:thumbup: particularly liked the bit about not having to listen to peoples boring bullshit. I work on my own and it's absolute bliss.
fancy not having to listen to people's boring life/love/health stories. but spending time on here, how the blessed live :wave:
I'm perfectly calm, dad, and am enjoying life. I don't need to spend 10-15 hours traveling to work a week, I don't need to spend £50 on fuel every week, I can start work when I like, and finish when I like. I am not constantly monitored (last time I experienced this was actually in an office), I don't get to hear people's boring life/love/health stories.
Your suggestion is that people should throw all this away because one day our jobs will be gone. It's based on nothing but being an old twat, and is probably based on no experience of management at all. I know a few people who can only function by having people telling them what to do every single hour. As a manager, I know who is slacking because it becomes pretty obvious. I don't need to be sat in an office with them to manage them, and they don't need to sit with me to be managed.
Needless to say, you probably wouldn't last very long in any team I managed because you aren't exactly innovative or forward thinking are you?
Temper temper. No need to start calling people twat's and such like. You'll give yourself a bad name. lol
That will be the rule anywhere with a tax dept. The payroll tax and social security issues with allowing a workforce to work where they like can be a nightmare- not to mention the possiblity of the company itself having a corporate tax liability in a country where their employees work. And if you don't spot that liability- in some countries that is a criminal offence, not just a matter of financial penalties.
I can't see why offshoring would be a problem, you pay local taxes - so what, banks have already been doing this for years.
Allez Allez Allez
20-06-21, 09:31
Temper temper. No need to start calling people twat's and such like. You'll give yourself a bad name. lol
I was perfectly calm until I saw your apostrophe.
In all seriousness though, about 20% of my work life has been spent trying to drag people like the OP forward. All these "We can't, we shouldn't" excuses are helping to achieve one thing. Lower productivity. Change is good. Less time wasted on roads is good. Less opportunities for people to slack by
1) Chatting at the desk
2) Chatting at the coffee machine
3) Chatting about what time to go for lunch
4) Chatting after coming back from lunch
5) Popping out for a fag to have a chat
6) Christmas/Easter/Valentine quizzes
7) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to is leaving, wasting another half an hour for each person.
8) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to has a birthday, wasting another half hour for each person.
9) Groups of people gathering photos of someone who has a birthday coming up, then spending an afternoon putting them in strategically hilarious places like the bogs
10) People surfing the net pretending to work
11) Calling meetings of 1 hour where the first 10 minutes is spent waiting for others to arrive, the next 20 minutes are spent laughing and joking between people who despise each other, 10 minutes talking about work, 15 minutes talking about the next meeting, and then the leader of the meeting saying "Good, we finished early, you all get 5 minutes back in your day".
is good.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
But, yes, none of this ever happens and people working from home is the cause of lower productivity.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
Parkinson's first law of work.... "Work expands to fill the time available to do it".
That's why everything is only finished at the last minute.
I was perfectly calm until I saw your apostrophe.
In all seriousness though, about 20% of my work life has been spent trying to drag people like the OP forward. All these "We can't, we shouldn't" excuses are helping to achieve one thing. Lower productivity. Change is good. Less time wasted on roads is good. Less opportunities for people to slack by
1) Chatting at the desk
2) Chatting at the coffee machine
3) Chatting about what time to go for lunch
4) Chatting after coming back from lunch
5) Popping out for a fag to have a chat
6) Christmas/Easter/Valentine quizzes
7) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to is leaving, wasting another half an hour for each person.
8) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to has a birthday, wasting another half hour for each person.
9) Groups of people gathering photos of someone who has a birthday coming up, then spending an afternoon putting them in strategically hilarious places like the bogs
10) People surfing the net pretending to work
11) Calling meetings of 1 hour where the first 10 minutes is spent waiting for others to arrive, the next 20 minutes are spent laughing and joking between people who despise each other, 10 minutes talking about work, 15 minutes talking about the next meeting, and then the leader of the meeting saying "Good, we finished early, you all get 5 minutes back in your day".
is good.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
But, yes, none of this ever happens and people working from home is the cause of lower productivity.
Brilliant!
It's nice to see work colleagues regularly, though.
What other kind of colleagues do you have?
I was perfectly calm until I saw your apostrophe.
In all seriousness though, about 20% of my work life has been spent trying to drag people like the OP forward. All these "We can't, we shouldn't" excuses are helping to achieve one thing. Lower productivity. Change is good. Less time wasted on roads is good. Less opportunities for people to slack by
1) Chatting at the desk
2) Chatting at the coffee machine
3) Chatting about what time to go for lunch
4) Chatting after coming back from lunch
5) Popping out for a fag to have a chat
6) Christmas/Easter/Valentine quizzes
7) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to is leaving, wasting another half an hour for each person.
8) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to has a birthday, wasting another half hour for each person.
9) Groups of people gathering photos of someone who has a birthday coming up, then spending an afternoon putting them in strategically hilarious places like the bogs
10) People surfing the net pretending to work
11) Calling meetings of 1 hour where the first 10 minutes is spent waiting for others to arrive, the next 20 minutes are spent laughing and joking between people who despise each other, 10 minutes talking about work, 15 minutes talking about the next meeting, and then the leader of the meeting saying "Good, we finished early, you all get 5 minutes back in your day".
is good.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
But, yes, none of this ever happens and people working from home is the cause of lower productivity.
Most of the things you list can, and are, done on Zoom or Teams. We chat on Teams, we waste time in meetings on Teams, we do birthdays and leaving dos on Teams.
Most of the things you list can, and are, done on Zoom or Teams. We chat on Teams, we waste time in meetings on Teams, we do birthdays and leaving dos on Teams.
I have 'Teams' where i work. I just don't do the meetings, can't be arsed, complete waste of my time.
I have 'Teams' where i work. I just don't do the meetings, can't be arsed, complete waste of my time.
And there was me thinking all this time that you're a self-employed plasterer.
And there was me thinking all this time that you're a self-employed plasterer.
Was, for 26 years. Bailed out 2 years ago (although still a plasterer and on the tools me lad!) Let's just say that things are a little more comfortable now, no more contracting, travelling the country and staying in shitty digs.
Was, for 26 years. Bailed out 2 years ago (although still a plasterer and on the tools me lad!) Let's just say that things are a little more comfortable now, no more contracting, travelling the country and staying in shitty digs.
Only :fishing: :hehe:
Only :fishing: :hehe:
Well, you caught one :thumbup:
What other kind of colleagues do you have?
It was a little joke for TBG.
It was a little joke for TBG.
:thumbup:
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 09:57
Parkinson's first law of work.... "Work expands to fill the time available to do it".
That's why everything is only finished at the last minute.
Not the case at all.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 10:05
Most of the things you list can, and are, done on Zoom or Teams. We chat on Teams, we waste time in meetings on Teams, we do birthdays and leaving dos on Teams.
At least you are not stuck in traffic to go somewhere to waste time.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 10:07
I have 'Teams' where i work. I just don't do the meetings, can't be arsed, complete waste of my time.
My connection goes dodgy everytime one of these meetings turns into something trivial. :hehe:
Not the case at all.
Of course it isn't. You know.
When I first started work as a data entry clerk, I used to get my daily work done by 1pm. The result was, I would then have to do the work others hadn't finished because they'd been gossiping, doing quizzes, smoking while I'd been working. After a few weeks of that, I decided to slow my pace down so that I finished and did the same amount of work as everyone else. Had managers sent me home after I finished as a reward, I guarantee the others would have matched my efforts.
some more modern thinking businesses have started to come around to this idea, usually the likes of google, Netflix etc. some roles have no core hours and no fixed holidays etc. just objectives. if you hit your objectives then it doesn't matter what you do, how many holidays you take etc.
finished your objectives for the year by the end of November - take the rest of the year off.
if more companies worked like that a lot more projects would complete on time.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 10:20
Of course it isn't. You know.
Seriously, last minute stress is something I've always tried to avoid (sometimes unavoidable if you're in a team of slackers, or have managers that are crap at organising). If I am involved in a last minute panic, I make sure that I let the people who caused that panic know they are completely culpable.
Funny thing is, since everyone has been wfh, last minute panics are much less frequent. I can guess why.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 10:24
some more modern thinking businesses have started to come around to this idea, usually the likes of google, Netflix etc. some roles have no core hours and no fixed holidays etc. just objectives. if you hit your objectives then it doesn't matter what you do, how many holidays you take etc.
finished your objectives for the year by the end of November - take the rest of the year off.
if more companies worked like that a lot more projects would complete on time.
Exactly - it is a real incentive.
Manufacturing industries spend fortunes upgrading machinery to do the job faster. But, they also spend fortunes on inefficient and unrewarding work practices. Penalising people who do the work by giving them things that lazy sods didn't complete? Result - efficient worker slows down, inefficient worker carries on not giving a crap. Rewarding people for completing ahead of time? Efficient worker has more leisure time, is more likely to keep up the effort. Inefficient worker will say "I'll have a bit of that" and increase their effort.
Optimistic Nick
21-06-21, 10:44
I was perfectly calm until I saw your apostrophe.
In all seriousness though, about 20% of my work life has been spent trying to drag people like the OP forward. All these "We can't, we shouldn't" excuses are helping to achieve one thing. Lower productivity. Change is good. Less time wasted on roads is good. Less opportunities for people to slack by
1) Chatting at the desk
2) Chatting at the coffee machine
3) Chatting about what time to go for lunch
4) Chatting after coming back from lunch
5) Popping out for a fag to have a chat
6) Christmas/Easter/Valentine quizzes
7) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to is leaving, wasting another half an hour for each person.
8) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to has a birthday, wasting another half hour for each person.
9) Groups of people gathering photos of someone who has a birthday coming up, then spending an afternoon putting them in strategically hilarious places like the bogs
10) People surfing the net pretending to work
11) Calling meetings of 1 hour where the first 10 minutes is spent waiting for others to arrive, the next 20 minutes are spent laughing and joking between people who despise each other, 10 minutes talking about work, 15 minutes talking about the next meeting, and then the leader of the meeting saying "Good, we finished early, you all get 5 minutes back in your day".
is good.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
But, yes, none of this ever happens and people working from home is the cause of lower productivity.
Items 1, 2 and 6 (and for others, 5) which you list as negatives, I see as positives. Not just for my personal enjoyment of work but for the performance of the job itself. This does not mean that I think everyone should work from the office. Far from it - do what works for you. But for me in my line of work there are loads of benefits of those chats at the coffee machine; chatting to people you sit near. I have found it very difficult to do parts of my job during lockdown without that type of constant chatter and asking people for a quick view on something, as have others. And for trainees and junior staff - that is how they get their work and how they learn and so some of them will have suffered from lack of development. Personally - I'd never do an "office job" if my home was my office, it would be too lonely, too boring and too impersonal. My line of work relies on relationships - far harder to build over a teams call. Absolutely, delivery of projects can certainly be done 100% remotely in most cases. But long term: if that is all you ever did I think it would lead to an unfulfilling career and a style of work that would not allow people to appropriately train juniors.
Items 3 and 4: how much time does that really waste? I certainly miss going for lunch with colleagues and again - a great way to build relationships; check in on your colleagues/juniors etc. All things made much harder by remote working.
Items 7 and 8 we got rid of years ago anyway and agree - the leaving speech thing is awful. But not really sure I'd say loss of productivity is its main problem. Item 9 sounds a bit juvenile and I suspect that would wind me up too- but I've not really come across that. And items 10 and 11 are hardly behaviours driven by being in the office. My PA tells me I now spend on average 7 hours a week more in zoom/skpe/whatever calls than I used to spend in physical meetings before lockdown- and some of that is deliberate to compensate for the loss of interaction that we'd generally get in a working day in the office.
Exactly - it is a real incentive.
Manufacturing industries spend fortunes upgrading machinery to do the job faster. But, they also spend fortunes on inefficient and unrewarding work practices. Penalising people who do the work by giving them things that lazy sods didn't complete? Result - efficient worker slows down, inefficient worker carries on not giving a crap. Rewarding people for completing ahead of time? Efficient worker has more leisure time, is more likely to keep up the effort. Inefficient worker will say "I'll have a bit of that" and increase their effort.
In my experience there is a lot of resistance to this from the people at the top.
They have often risen to the top working in the old fashioned way of working, and don't feel comfortable letting go of the reigns.
Now many have been forced to during the pandemic it will be interesting whether there will be an attempt to pick those reigns back up and how the workforce will react to it.
I'm working mostly with people in China, Eastern Europe and the states at the moment, so it makes next to no difference whether I'm in the office or not, and I already have to keep unconventional hours.
Home working allows me to leave 30 minutes later when I have to pick the kids up to school, and get to work 30 minutes sooner after I drop them off. More time is available for work and I save on fuel costs.
My girlfriend doesn't work at all so the amount of sex during office hours has definitely increased (from 0) :hehe: so I can't claim to always be 100 focussed on the job (so to speak), but I think all things considered it works out better for me and for the company I work for.
Some things are always better face to face though. Once things seem more stable from a covid point of view I think I'll be trying to spend 2 days in the office and 3 days at home per week.
A counterpoint to the people saying there is a risk that remote working will threaten people's jobs.
Whilst I don't do much engineering these days - by training I'm a mechanical engineer.
Engineering in this country is hugely undervalued both in terms of financial reimbursement and social standing.
People seem to hold a lot more respect for a lawyer than an engineer for example.
Working in the medical device industry in any of the roles I've been doing over the last decade or so my pay would have been a lot more if I'd been doing them in the US, or Germany, or Ireland, or Switzerland etc. where they properly value their engineers.
For the US you'd probably double the salary and for the rest of Europe increase it by at least 50%
Remote working has now become a lot more normalised in the rest of Europe as well, and I've started getting head-hunters looking to fill roles in Ireland and Europe on places like Linked in that are 100% remote based and paid at the local rates, whereas previously they would have been mostly looking for relocation.
A Quiet Monkfish
21-06-21, 11:27
I'm perfectly calm, dad, and am enjoying life. I don't need to spend 10-15 hours traveling to work a week, I don't need to spend £50 on fuel every week, I can start work when I like, and finish when I like. I am not constantly monitored (last time I experienced this was actually in an office), I don't get to hear people's boring life/love/health stories.
Your suggestion is that people should throw all this away because one day our jobs will be gone. It's based on nothing but being an old twat, and is probably based on no experience of management at all. I know a few people who can only function by having people telling them what to do every single hour. As a manager, I know who is slacking because it becomes pretty obvious. I don't need to be sat in an office with them to manage them, and they don't need to sit with me to be managed.
Needless to say, you probably wouldn't last very long in any team I managed because you aren't exactly innovative or forward thinking are you?
Aw, that's a shame - you sound inspirational.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 12:10
Aw, that's a shame - you sound inspirational.
And you sound like you're stuck in a dead-end job.
Allez Allez Allez
21-06-21, 12:24
In my experience there is a lot of resistance to this from the people at the top.
They have often risen to the top working in the old fashioned way of working, and don't feel comfortable letting go of the reigns.
Now many have been forced to during the pandemic it will be interesting whether there will be an attempt to pick those reigns back up and how the workforce will react to it.
I'm working mostly with people in China, Eastern Europe and the states at the moment, so it makes next to no difference whether I'm in the office or not, and I already have to keep unconventional hours.
Home working allows me to leave 30 minutes later when I have to pick the kids up to school, and get to work 30 minutes sooner after I drop them off. More time is available for work and I save on fuel costs.
My girlfriend doesn't work at all so the amount of sex during office hours has definitely increased (from 0) :hehe: so I can't claim to always be 100 focussed on the job (so to speak), but I think all things considered it works out better for me and for the company I work for.
Some things are always better face to face though. Once things seem more stable from a covid point of view I think I'll be trying to spend 2 days in the office and 3 days at home per week.
Interesting, I've just interviewed an old colleague who got in touch with me looking for a role. She has been forced back into the office and no real justifications have been offered from her manager who is a classic micromanager. The assumption is that, if the manager can't see you, you're up to no good. It's that sort of pre-historic thinking that has spurred the OP into making a bit of an arse of himself talking, as he is, as a casual observer and not an actual player.
Undoubtedly there are things that are better face to face, and I have no engineering experience so I concede the percentages of time required to collaborate may be higher than in my line of work.
How often have we all finished early just because we have a dental appointment at 3:30 and that requires us to leave at 3pm, and it's not worth going back for half an hour? How often have we had workers, often women sadly, for whom the chore of picking up the kids has fallen to them and not their partner? One lady I work with has just gone back to full-time work purely because, after picking up her daughter, she can get back to work. She also does an hour late at evening. Prior to this, everything was office based and she had no option other than to go part-time. Like I say, this tends to unfairly fall on women so it has held her progress back.
The OP listed some suppositions on why home working is going to cause all our jobs to go to India, but hasn't offered anything other than a little thought that occurred to him that he simply had to put into writing. Sad to say, there are folks in boardrooms around the country with an equally silly outlook. Home working isn't for everyone, but clogging up roads for stuff that can be done in a building that costs a fortune in mortgage payments - completely non-sensical. A bit like the OP.
when i used to do maintenance and fire prevention work in Offices ( a few years in total ) I was a little envious of the office work environment, a real micro-world, a snapshot of life, people from different backgrounds all slung into a melting pot, the laughs, flirting, bullying etc etc I worked at cardiff city hall for 18 months and got invited to Christmas parties ( Yes i went and enjoyed them ) spent some time with some city lads ( who i had seen about, but didnt really know them, i know they used to post on here ) Office looked a decent place to work
I guess if you are a social type of person, you would be itching to get back to the office , i can see how it would have been missed
another issue with WFH must be training people, all them Jnr Office types learn from watching people do what they do, thats not going to happen when you WFH
Segriously, last minute stress is something I've always tried to avoid (sometimes unavoidable if you're in a team of slackers, or have managers that are crap at organising). If I am involved in a last minute panic, I make sure that I let the people who caused that panic know they are completely culpable.
Funny thing is, since everyone has been wfh, last minute panics are much less frequent. I can guess why.
I think that is total bullshit mate
The Lone Gunman
22-06-21, 11:15
particularly liked the bit about not having to listen to peoples boring bullshit.
You listen to my boring bullshit often enough and by choice too!
Earlier today I thought of another waste of time for people who work in offices. I was walking through the Ty Glas Industrial Estate in Llanishen and witnessed loads of people shuffling out of their offices onto the courtyard. It was a fire drill! Not a waste of time if it saves someone’s life of course, but in truth they’re almost always a waste of time and they can drag on for ages.
I’ve worked in our office throughout the pandemic and wouldn’t want to work at home, doesn’t suit me as an individual, but it’s been blatantly obvious since March 2020 that those who are productive in the office are also productive at home, and vice versa.
The time I'm most productive in the office is when I book myself into a meeting room and work on my own. Just find the open working environment too distracting otherwise to really get my head-down. Possibly because I've worked from home for part of the week for years now.
There are of course other good reasons to go into the office besides work so wouldn't really want to work from home permanently.
Allez Allez Allez
22-06-21, 12:52
when i used to do maintenance and fire prevention work in Offices ( a few years in total ) I was a little envious of the office work environment, a real micro-world, a snapshot of life, people from different backgrounds all slung into a melting pot, the laughs, flirting, bullying etc etc I worked at cardiff city hall for 18 months and got invited to Christmas parties ( Yes i went and enjoyed them ) spent some time with some city lads ( who i had seen about, but didnt really know them, i know they used to post on here ) Office looked a decent place to work
I guess if you are a social type of person, you would be itching to get back to the office , i can see how it would have been missed
another issue with WFH must be training people, all them Jnr Office types learn from watching people do what they do, thats not going to happen when you WFH
Seriously? A lot of office work is mundane and, in all honesty, could be automated. You can get kids doing most of the stuff that others do within a day or two. Like you say, socially an office is a great place to be. Unfortunately, that means that for people who show up to do the work and go home, they end up getting put upon while others take the piss. For most teams you have one worker to 3 shirkers.
Allez Allez Allez
22-06-21, 12:53
I think that is total bullshit mate
What is? All of it? Some of it? What are you basing it on? You wouldn't just be here looking for an argument would you?
Allez Allez Allez
22-06-21, 12:56
You listen to my boring bullshit often enough and by choice too!
Earlier today I thought of another waste of time for people who work in offices. I was walking through the Ty Glas Industrial Estate in Llanishen and witnessed loads of people shuffling out of their offices onto the courtyard. It was a fire drill! Not a waste of time if it saves someone’s life of course, but in truth they’re almost always a waste of time and they can drag on for ages.
I’ve worked in our office throughout the pandemic and wouldn’t want to work at home, doesn’t suit me as an individual, but it’s been blatantly obvious since March 2020 that those who are productive in the office are also productive at home, and vice versa.
Ah, yes. The fire drill. The smokers light up as soon as they hit the fresh air. A free smoke break. Then, thirty minutes later, back into the office, and everyone is queuing up at the coffee machine. Can waste a good afternoon on a fire break. Always called in nice weather too.
What is? All of it? Some of it? What are you basing it on? You wouldn't just be here looking for an argument would you?
No, I'll leave that to you.
I disbelieve what you say about your circumstances because the change so often, I don't believe you would treat people working for you as you say you would in the event of last minute completion, bullshit.because if you did you'd be out of work yourself very quickly. It is rhetoric, look how efficient and ruthless I am with my colleagues.
Oh, and Parkinson's 1st law of work is true. It has been proven.I've done it myself.
Allez Allez Allez
22-06-21, 14:28
No, I'll leave that to you.
I disbelieve what you say about your circumstances because the change so often, I don't believe you would treat people working for you as you say you would in the event of last minute completion, bullshit.because if you did you'd be out of work yourself very quickly. It is rhetoric, look how efficient and ruthless I am with my colleagues.
Oh, and Parkinson's 1st law of work is true. It has been proven.I've done it myself.
What do you mean "treat people a I say I would"? I haven't mistreated anyone. I have, however, voiced my disapproval when people have pissed around and left a project to the last minute. That isn't me being ruthless, that is me saying "thanks for putting me/my team under stress because of poor organisation".
And whether or not you leave things to the last minute is not proof that "Parkinson's first law" is true in every case. It is true in cases where people take the piss. It is true in cases where projects are mismanaged. Like I said, if I get a request to do something immediately because the deadline is in 5 minutes, and it isn't my fault then I'll make it known it isn't my fault. Oddly enough, I haven't been sacked once. I've walked out of places, true, but I've usually done that knowing I am walking into something better.
J R Hartley
22-06-21, 15:54
No, I'll leave that to you.
I disbelieve what you say about your circumstances because the change so often, I don't believe you would treat people working for you as you say you would in the event of last minute completion, bullshit.because if you did you'd be out of work yourself very quickly. It is rhetoric, look how efficient and ruthless I am with my colleagues.
Oh, and Parkinson's 1st law of work is true. It has been proven.I've done it myself.
Walter Mitty springs to mind
You listen to my boring bullshit often enough and by choice too!
Earlier today I thought of another waste of time for people who work in offices. I was walking through the Ty Glas Industrial Estate in Llanishen and witnessed loads of people shuffling out of their offices onto the courtyard. It was a fire drill! Not a waste of time if it saves someone’s life of course, but in truth they’re almost always a waste of time and they can drag on for ages.
I’ve worked in our office throughout the pandemic and wouldn’t want to work at home, doesn’t suit me as an individual, but it’s been blatantly obvious since March 2020 that those who are productive in the office are also productive at home, and vice versa.
Yeah, but at least your 'Bullshit' is interesting, and by the end of it, you've probably offended some blowhard in the office :hehe: I hate having a set time to work in, My philosophy is get the job done as quickly as possible and then get the **** out of there. I appreciate that can't be the case for everyone. I call it self preservation, especially in a physically demanding job. As soon as i've earned what i wont out of the day, i'm off, or tools are put away.
Allez Allez Allez
22-06-21, 16:36
Walter Mitty springs to mind
What happened with your job in the end Hartley? Did you tell the owner where to go, or are you still his little lap dog?
What happened with your job in the end Hartley? Did you tell the owner where to go, or are you still his little lap dog?
For someone who until lately have barely posted on here you are an offensive little git aren't you?
Reminds me so much of another poster, or should that be posterS?
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 10:20
For someone who until lately have barely posted on here you are an offensive little git aren't you?
Reminds me so much of another poster, or should that be posterS?
I'm barely posting on here now(!) Just on this one subject where the OP is talking bollocks and pointing out real-world examples of why he is talking bollocks. Funny thing is, you've stopped talking about the subject of the post for some reason.
As for being offensive, this board is full of people who are offended by something. Whether it be the non-creation of new roads, people innovatively working from home or something else. Which, to me, suggests that there are plenty of offensive little gits getting plenty of offended people offended. Are you a snowflake?
I'm barely posting on here now(!) Just on this one subject where the OP is talking bollocks and pointing out real-world examples of why he is talking bollocks. Funny thing is, you've stopped talking about the subject of the post for some reason.
As for being offensive, this board is full of people who are offended by something. Whether it be the non-creation of new roads, people innovatively working from home or something else. Which, to me, suggests that there are plenty of offensive little gits getting plenty of offended people offended. Are you a snowflake?
Snowfake? lol you should know what I am you have trolled enough looking for anything about me. Now go away and come back using one of your other names, and try to keep it in character. :wave:
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 11:55
Snowfake? lol you should know what I am you have trolled enough looking for anything about me. Now go away and come back using one of your other names, and try to keep it in character. :wave:
Dear me, you do witter on, this has nothing to do with the subject brought up in the OP.
However, keeping it on subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57517669
A 2 year old company, valued at £4bn, employing 500, and not one of them works in an office.
JamesWales
23-06-21, 12:15
I absolutely hate working from home. Its a mental health nightmare for so many, especially those in more difficult home environments
I absolutely hate working from home. Its a mental health nightmare for so many, especially those in more difficult home environments
yeah it isn't for everyone. Hopefully we will see greater flexibility in the future, so that employees can work in a way that best suits them.
Many years ago (like 10) I had a bee in my bonnet on this topic.
I emailed whoever was the Welsh Assembly minister for business at the time and prattled on about it.
I suggested that if Welsh businesses were encouraged, or forced to allow home working in wales where appropriate 2 or 3 days a week, possibly through financial incentives then the rewards for Wales would be manifold.
Less commuting - less congestion, less pollution, less wasted time, less wear and tear on the roads, less new roads required, less money leaving the country to oil producing nations every time you fill up. Potentially less childcare required. People not having to commute every day would also mean people would be more interested in living in the upper valleys, where housing is cheaper rejuvenating those areas, buying their lunches locally instead of near the office in Cardiff, Newport or Swansea.
I also suggested if Wales led the way on this then it might encourage local companies to develop some of the software solutions that would help with off site working.
A few years later the company Zoom was founded and now has a value of $100 bn.
Ok its unlikely that a welsh Zoom would have had as much traction, but you never know.
I wasn't expecting much response, but I jut got a one line answer saying that they can't offer tax incentives to companies as it isn't devolved. :facepalm:
Dear me, you do witter on, this has nothing to do with the subject brought up in the OP.
However, keeping it on subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57517669
A 2 year old company, valued at £4bn, employing 500, and not one of them works in an office.
I am keeping it on subject. You're a multi-faced troll :wave:
I was perfectly calm until I saw your apostrophe.
In all seriousness though, about 20% of my work life has been spent trying to drag people like the OP forward. All these "We can't, we shouldn't" excuses are helping to achieve one thing. Lower productivity. Change is good. Less time wasted on roads is good. Less opportunities for people to slack by
1) Chatting at the desk
2) Chatting at the coffee machine
3) Chatting about what time to go for lunch
4) Chatting after coming back from lunch
5) Popping out for a fag to have a chat
6) Christmas/Easter/Valentine quizzes
7) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to is leaving, wasting another half an hour for each person.
8) The entire office congregating because someone they never spoke to has a birthday, wasting another half hour for each person.
9) Groups of people gathering photos of someone who has a birthday coming up, then spending an afternoon putting them in strategically hilarious places like the bogs
10) People surfing the net pretending to work
11) Calling meetings of 1 hour where the first 10 minutes is spent waiting for others to arrive, the next 20 minutes are spent laughing and joking between people who despise each other, 10 minutes talking about work, 15 minutes talking about the next meeting, and then the leader of the meeting saying "Good, we finished early, you all get 5 minutes back in your day".
is good.
The office is nothing more than a distraction. It is noisy, it is full of interruptions, it is full of banality, it is full of people who are only capable of forming relationships with people they work with, it is full of excuses to not do any work which results in lots of last minute rushes. That the OP thinks people should have to endure 12-15 hours of travel a week just to waste time is hilarious. Personally, I was getting more done and spending less time working once I went to wfh. It also means I can apply for jobs in London with higher wages, without having to endure the joke that is the London property market.
But, yes, none of this ever happens and people working from home is the cause of lower productivity.
you're not going to be able to have an office affair if you're working from home.
In my experience there is a lot of resistance to this from the people at the top.
They have often risen to the top working in the old fashioned way of working, and don't feel comfortable letting go of the reigns.
Now many have been forced to during the pandemic it will be interesting whether there will be an attempt to pick those reigns back up and how the workforce will react to it.
I'm working mostly with people in China, Eastern Europe and the states at the moment, so it makes next to no difference whether I'm in the office or not, and I already have to keep unconventional hours.
Home working allows me to leave 30 minutes later when I have to pick the kids up to school, and get to work 30 minutes sooner after I drop them off. More time is available for work and I save on fuel costs.
My girlfriend doesn't work at all so the amount of sex during office hours has definitely increased (from 0) :hehe: so I can't claim to always be 100 focussed on the job (so to speak), but I think all things considered it works out better for me and for the company I work for.
Some things are always better face to face though. Once things seem more stable from a covid point of view I think I'll be trying to spend 2 days in the office and 3 days at home per week.
are we supposed to believe an engineer has a girlfriend, never mind has sex on the regular?
are we supposed to believe an engineer has a girlfriend, never mind has sex on the regular?
this coming from an accountant?
A Quiet Monkfish
23-06-21, 16:12
Dear me, you do witter on, this has nothing to do with the subject brought up in the OP.
However, keeping it on subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57517669
A 2 year old company, valued at £4bn, employing 500, and not one of them works in an office.
You just didn't get it. My original post was simple ; people who are now WFH are more likely to lose their job to someone in another Country than if they were working in the office. Providing there's no language barrier, it makes no difference to the employer - and as your supporting link confirms - is cost beneficial and achieves excellent ROI. What's more, as some have concurred, home is home, and should stay that way. "Meeting" in Cloud etc., isn't "Meeting". No more than you're 'meeting' Gary Lineker when the football's on..
The Lone Gunman
23-06-21, 16:35
You just didn't get it. My original post was simple ; people who are now WFH are more likely to lose their job to someone in another Country than if they were working in the office. Providing there's no language barrier, it makes no difference to the employer - and as your supporting link confirms - is cost beneficial and achieves excellent ROI. What's more, as some have concurred, home is home, and should stay that way. "Meeting" in Cloud etc., isn't "Meeting". No more than you're 'meeting' Gary Lineker when the football's on..
Are you retired? If so, when did you retire?
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 16:45
I am keeping it on subject. You're a multi-faced troll :wave:
Just checking.
Thread title: Working from Home
Your post "You're a multi-faced troll"
Not on subject dear boy. And, sadly, me pointing this out means I am also veering off topic.
A Quiet Monkfish
23-06-21, 16:49
Are you retired? If so, when did you retire?
"retired ? " That's so 20th Century..
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 16:54
You just didn't get it. My original post was simple ; people who are now WFH are more likely to lose their job to someone in another Country than if they were working in the office.
I know EXACTLY what you are saying, just because I have pointed out it is a load of nonsense doesn't mean I didn't get it.
My point is that your opinions are baseless. What are they based on other than apparent fear? Today I provided an example of a business that started 2 years ago (pre-pandemic) and is valued at £4bn with 500 employees. 500 jobs created from remote working. You could, I suggest, come up with a counter-example.
You further demonstrate your lack of vision with the comment "Home is home and should stay that way". Why? Why should it stay that way? My mortgage is £1000 a month. If I was working in an office, I would essentially be using it as a place to sleep, eat and watch tele for an hour or two a week. Now that I am working remotely, I am getting much more value from my home. I am getting to spend more time with my kids. I am spending more time with family. I can start work at 5am if I like, or at 5pm if I like. Maybe this is beyond your comprehension because you, maybe, are one of those workers who is put in a box and stays there from 16-65.
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 16:55
you're not going to be able to have an office affair if you're working from home.
To be fair, that is one drawback.
A Quiet Monkfish
23-06-21, 17:20
I know EXACTLY what you are saying, just because I have pointed out it is a load of nonsense doesn't mean I didn't get it.
My point is that your opinions are baseless. What are they based on other than apparent fear? Today I provided an example of a business that started 2 years ago (pre-pandemic) and is valued at £4bn with 500 employees. 500 jobs created from remote working. You could, I suggest, come up with a counter-example.
You further demonstrate your lack of vision with the comment "Home is home and should stay that way". Why? Why should it stay that way? My mortgage is £1000 a month. If I was working in an office, I would essentially be using it as a place to sleep, eat and watch tele for an hour or two a week. Now that I am working remotely, I am getting much more value from my home. I am getting to spend more time with my kids. I am spending more time with family. I can start work at 5am if I like, or at 5pm if I like. Maybe this is beyond your comprehension because you, maybe, are one of those workers who is put in a box and stays there from 16-65.
It's your employer who's getting good value - you just posted a link to an example which exemplifies that perfectly !
The Lone Gunman
23-06-21, 17:34
"retired ? " That's so 20th Century..
Are you in full-time employment? If not, when did you cease to be in full-time employment?
Allez Allez Allez
23-06-21, 17:37
It's your employer who's getting good value - you just posted a link to an example which exemplifies that perfectly !
Ok, taking your logic to its conclusion. If my employer is getting good value (and on the wages they pay me, I have no complaints) why is my job now at risk?
this coming from an accountant?
The sexiest profession
To be fair, that is one drawback.
If you were working in my office you'd think it a bonus!
The sexiest profession
:hehe:
Allez Allez Allez
24-06-21, 08:32
What's more, as some have concurred, home is home, and should stay that way. "Meeting" in Cloud etc., isn't "Meeting". No more than you're 'meeting' Gary Lineker when the football's on..
I think this is your argument in a nutshell.
"Home should stay as home". Why?
"Meeting in Cloud". You clearly have no idea what a meeting in Skype/Teams/Zoom is do you? "Oh yes I do" I can hear you mutter but your next comment proves you don't.
"isn't "Meeting". No more than you're 'meeting' Gary Lineker when the football's on.." What a terrible analogy. Putting the TV on and watching football is a one-way communication. An online meeting is not.
I would love to know how you would propose that a multi-national organisation conducts meetings across countries.
Your employee "Quick everyone, we need to have a chat about this new project with our software developers in India".
Quiet Monkfish "How long do we need".
Your employee "An hour should cover it up. I'll set up a Skype meeting now".
Quiet Monkfish "Are you mad? That is not a meeting, we need to see the whites of their eyes. I'm booking a flight for four of us to go there"
Your employee "For an hour?"
Quiet Monkfish "Yes, think of it this way. If we don't go there, they'll take our bloody jobs".
Meeting in India concludes.... further actions
Indian developer "Apologies that we were 5 minutes late to the meeting, and it was great to hear all about your long trip for 25 minutes. We have 5 minutes left, I propose we go away and think about the requirements and set up another meeting in 2 days. I will send the Skype invites now"
Quiet Monkfish "Are you mad? A meeting on a TV screen. This isn't Buck Rogers, and this isn't the 25th century son. We'll come back"
Indian developer "If you are sure, I can provide you with a website to book additional flights"
Quiet Monkfish "Are you mad? A website by God! I'll call Red Dragon travel as soon as I get back home tomorrow".
Your Employee "Boss, are you sure, we have wasted 2 days getting here, and we can easily do this remotely. I suggest I work from home when I get back so that I can use the extra time to catch up on work I should have been doing yesterday and today".
Quiet Monkfish "Home is home. A few people concur with that, so it is clearly correct. I'll see you in the office at 9am. We can have a meeting then to discuss the meeting we had today, and I'll arrange a secondary meeting to discuss the next meeting we will be flying to in 2 days time. I see your workload is increasing, I'll employ extra people. That is clearly the answer here".
Optimistic Nick
24-06-21, 09:01
Ok, taking your logic to its conclusion. If my employer is getting good value (and on the wages they pay me, I have no complaints) why is my job now at risk?
Because they can get better value from someone doing the same job remotely from a country with lower cost of living. That has always been a risk of course, but more companies are aware of the possibility due to the general success of WFH during lockdown.
Because they can get better value from someone doing the same job remotely from a country with lower cost of living. That has always been a risk of course, but more companies are aware of the possibility due to the general success of WFH during lockdown.
I'm seeing the opposite, jobs coming to the UK because they don't have to pay as much for skilled engineers
Allez Allez Allez
24-06-21, 09:39
Because they can get better value from someone doing the same job remotely from a country with lower cost of living. That has always been a risk of course, but more companies are aware of the possibility due to the general success of WFH during lockdown.
You are conveniently forgetting there is a risk factor to shipping operations overseas. There are also risks to data security. Page 7 we're on, and not yet one confirmed case of a company shifting operations overseas because of the success of remote working. The success story I linked in was one I stumbled across on the BBC yesterday. Anecdotally, I have found that job opportunities have rarely been better for me than they are now, and my field of opportunity is significantly wider as relocation is not a requirement anymore.
The Lone Gunman
24-06-21, 10:09
My guess is that Monkfish has been retired for some time and is hopelessly out of touch with modern working environments. Bear in mind that around this time last year he was predicting that nobody but public sector workers would still have jobs by the end of 2020 due to the pandemic. He also said he believed there was no way football could resume while Covid-19 was rife.
He's a bit of an old misery guts if the truth be told.
A Quiet Monkfish
24-06-21, 10:56
Ok, taking your logic to its conclusion. If my employer is getting good value (and on the wages they pay me, I have no complaints) why is my job now at risk?
It's incredible. You still haven't grasped this. Nobody is saying your job's at risk, but it's more likely to go elsewhere if you are WFH as opposed to being in an office environment. As for getting good value, your employer is getting your 'input' - whatever that is - completely free of rent, rates, utility costs, travel costs, maintenance costs, etc.. All that is being paid by YOU, as a percentage of your £1000 per month mortgage.
WJ99mobile
24-06-21, 11:09
My guess is that Monkfish has been retired for some time and is hopelessly out of touch with modern working environments. Bear in mind that around this time last year he was predicting that nobody but public sector workers would still have jobs by the end of 2020 due to the pandemic. He also said he believed there was no way football could resume while Covid-19 was rife.
He's a bit of an old misery guts if the truth be told.
Clearly a misery guts but the points are valid. Its the same thing in every walk of life, things change, goalposts move. We'll have a mass change to work from home, for a time, then a rebound and then eventually it'll sit somewhere in the middle. There'll also be a issue when it comes to people retiring as it's clearly much harder to train and get experience from home. If jobs do flow abroad, it wont be long until the Government tax this differently.
Automation probably has more of a risk of losing your job than WFH does.
I would agree with him that the football if following the rules of the public shouldn't on paper go ahead but it does - clearly shows we're not all carrying the same burdens.
It's incredible. You still haven't grasped this. Nobody is saying your job's at risk, but it's more likely to go elsewhere if you are WFH as opposed to being in an office environment. As for getting good value, your employer is getting your 'input' - whatever that is - completely free of rent, rates, utility costs, travel costs, maintenance costs, etc.. All that is being paid by YOU, as a percentage of your £1000 per month mortgage.
Are you retired though?
Taunton Blue Genie
24-06-21, 13:06
Are you retired though?
Or just resting?
Allez Allez Allez
24-06-21, 14:56
It's incredible. You still haven't grasped this. Nobody is saying your job's at risk, but it's more likely to go elsewhere if you are WFH as opposed to being in an office environment. As for getting good value, your employer is getting your 'input' - whatever that is - completely free of rent, rates, utility costs, travel costs, maintenance costs, etc.. All that is being paid by YOU, as a percentage of your £1000 per month mortgage.
The incredible thing is that you staunchly stick to that despite overwhelming evidence that
you haven't got the foggiest when it comes to online meetings (akin to watching the tv),
you haven't got an appreciation that online meetings have been commonplace for years,
a number of people have pointed out how remote working has increased their job opportunities,
a story (that happened to be in the news yesterday) of a company that is 100% remote working employing 500 people and valued at £4bn
A lack of evidence of jobs going the other way
A lack of understanding that remote working is not a new concept
A lack of understanding that businesses seek to get value from resources (i.e. employees). If a company pays person x £40,000 a year, it's because person x generates more than £40,000 a year to the business.
That employing people in an office is actually more expensive than having them work remotely (ergo, using your logic, office work increases the risk of a job going elsewhere). You seem to finally be grasping this one though.
A lack of understanding on basic business practices and the inherent risks and costs to moving overseas
Remote working isn't for everyone. I haven't claimed it is. But it is a game changer in more positive ways than negative. Now, you can argue against this statement with woolly, meaningless comments like "home is home". But, for an astute person, there are increasing opportunities. The nonsense about our jobs being more likely to move overseas is based on very little I am afraid.
By the way, pre remote working I was spending £40 a week on fuel (my cost), I was having to service the car twice a year, new tyres far too regular, brakes, and essentially a new car every 3-4 years. Since working from home, I don't spend £40 on fuel, my car is serviced annually, it is 10 years old, it has barely 60,000 miles on the clock. I'm not sure that the 30 watts per hour of charging my laptop is going to be that expensive.
Allez Allez Allez
24-06-21, 15:10
Clearly a misery guts but the points are valid. Its the same thing in every walk of life, things change, goalposts move. We'll have a mass change to work from home, for a time, then a rebound and then eventually it'll sit somewhere in the middle. There'll also be a issue when it comes to people retiring as it's clearly much harder to train and get experience from home. If jobs do flow abroad, it wont be long until the Government tax this differently.
Automation probably has more of a risk of losing your job than WFH does.
I would agree with him that the football if following the rules of the public shouldn't on paper go ahead but it does - clearly shows we're not all carrying the same burdens.
Spot on about automation and add to that AI, and the regions that will get hit first are the ones where our call centres are based. Some of the AI technology being developed is frighteningly brilliant.
The sexiest profession
Back when 'Bob The Builder' was a thing, plenty of milf taking their little un's to school would stop and chat while i emptied my mixer...... us construction workers were like rock stars during that period :hehe:
Optimistic Nick
24-06-21, 16:52
You are conveniently forgetting there is a risk factor to shipping operations overseas. There are also risks to data security. Page 7 we're on, and not yet one confirmed case of a company shifting operations overseas because of the success of remote working. The success story I linked in was one I stumbled across on the BBC yesterday. Anecdotally, I have found that job opportunities have rarely been better for me than they are now, and my field of opportunity is significantly wider as relocation is not a requirement anymore.
No I am not. I make my living from talking about parts of it and have mentioned some in this thread.
In my field this was already happening, but I have certainly seen groups accelerate offshoring of roles due to the investment they've had to make to get home working set up.
I am not saying that this is uniform and that there isn't traffic coming the other way too or even that the net effect is loss of jobs. But it is correct to say that some people may find that jobs in their sector do move out as groups reconsider the idea that they need a UK workforce due to the success of (or investment in) remote working over the last year or so.
The Lone Gunman
24-06-21, 17:03
In the 90's we saw the almost complete export of call centres to countries with much lower wage costs.
No we didn't. In 1995, there were approximately 150,00 people employed as call centre agents in the UK. By 2003, the figure was 500,000 (source: Department of Trade and Industry).
Allez Allez Allez
02-07-21, 10:53
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57693065
Asda are moving with the times.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.