Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

[Elwood Blues]

Anyone who heard their speeches just now in the Afghanistan debate must wonder why on earth they aren't in the cabinet. In senior posts.

I know they are in two of the most senior posts outside the Government as Chairmen of the Foreign Affairs and Defence committees respectively.

But they should be in a position where they can actively influence decisions.

Yes I know it is another political thread on the main board. But this crisis deserves wide discussion.

[ninian opinian]

Anyone who heard their speeches just now in the Afghanistan debate must wonder why on earth they aren't in the cabinet. In senior posts.

I know they are in two of the most senior posts outside the Government as Chairmen of the Foreign Affairs and Defence committees respectively.

But they should be in a position where they can actively influence decisions.

Yes I know it is another political thread on the main board. But this crisis deserves wide discussion.

Because Johnson wants yes men/women. Those currently in the cabinet are complete and utter dross. They know they shouldn’t be there and so are happy to lie, lie and lie some more for the biggest fraud ever as PM.

[Cleve van Leef]

Because Johnson wants yes men/women. Those currently in the cabinet are complete and utter dross. They know they shouldn’t be there and so are happy to lie, lie and lie some more for the biggest fraud ever as PM.

So very true

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Johnson is shocking

I cannot believe this arsehole is running the country

[Elwood Blues]

Because Johnson wants yes men/women. Those currently in the cabinet are complete and utter dross. They know they shouldn’t be there and so are happy to lie, lie and lie some more for the biggest fraud ever as PM.

It was a rhetorical question but designed to get responses such as these. I would disagree that the entire cabinet is dross ( but a fair number are. I have no confidence in Dominic Raab as Foreign Secretary for example.

But yes Tughendhat and Elwood's faces do not fit. Neither did Johnny Mercer's. Time the other MP's in the Tory Party recognised this.

Tughendhat's criticism of Biden's attempt to lay a large part of the blame was particularly telling.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It was a rhetorical question but designed to get responses such as these. I would disagree that the entire cabinet is dross ( but a fair number are. I have no confidence in Dominic Raab as Foreign Secretary for example.

But yes Tughendhat and Elwood's faces do not fit. Neither did Johnny Mercer's. Time the other MP's in the Tory Party recognised this.

Tughendhat's criticism of Biden's attempt to lay a large part of the blame was particularly telling.

Biden

I bet people who voted for him are appalled

[Elwood Blues]

Biden

I bet people who voted for him are appalled

Trump of course started the rot.

But he only announce the final troop withdrawals a fortnight before the inauguration. Biden could and should have changed this decision in those first days when in a blaze of publicity he signed those various executive orders reversing other things that Trump had done.

There will be much criticism of this government over this debacle, much of it justified. But once America had decided to leave there was little we could do. I heard somewhere on TV that Boris Johnston had tried to get a group of other countries to try and step in but no one was interested. No idea how true this is.

[RonnieBird]

Remarkable to me is the expectation here though of politicians.

They are ALL venal and vacuus self seeking windbags with no ability or interest in achieving anything but their own advantage.

It’s been that way since Ancient Rome I’m afraid.

Whole debate to be had ( maybe not here) about whether representative government is either possible or existent.

Probably best not to go there or I’ll have the usual suspects screeching at me and getting angry that I challenged their simplistic understanding of the world

[RonnieBird]

Hey, I will say this though. If voting changed anything they’d certainly ban it.

Also whilst I stand by my comments above, that’s a great pity because I know there are plenty of intelligent people here who’ve learned not to raise their heads above the parapet for fear of being mobbed by the moron gang.

[jon1959]

Hey, I will say this though. If voting changed anything they’d certainly ban it.

Also whilst I stand by my comments above, that’s a great pity because I know there are plenty of intelligent people here who’ve learned not to raise their heads above the parapet for fear of being mobbed by the moron gang.

It's not fear of your moron gang, Ronnie.

It's probably boredom with the pomposity and pointlessness of your wind ups - whether football or politics.

[Hilts]

Ex veterans minister Johnny Mercer has also criticised Johnson.

[life on mars]

Agree they speak to the core of the issue . Sadly in better terms than some opposition MP's who appear to be point scoring ??

[RonnieBird]

It's not fear of your moron gang, Ronnie.

It's probably boredom with the pomposity and pointlessness of your wind ups - whether football or politics.


No it’s not that. True it’s not fear either though.
I just think it’s a bit of a pity that a few people are so obsessed with their own egos that they can’t enjoy and often won’t tolerate the exploration of anything which bucks their current pattern of thinking.

Of course that’s how we advance and it’s sometimes both interesting and entertaining, which does no harm. Look ,you’re as bad as anyone if you think about it - what did you want to do there - add to the conversation, challenge the concept or just call me a big twat and somehow boost yourself up by diminishing someone else or what they said ?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Anyone who heard their speeches just now in the Afghanistan debate must wonder why on earth they aren't in the cabinet. In senior posts.

I know they are in two of the most senior posts outside the Government as Chairmen of the Foreign Affairs and Defence committees respectively.

But they should be in a position where they can actively influence decisions.

Yes I know it is another political thread on the main board. But this crisis deserves wide discussion.

Seems neither went to Eton or Harrow, so probably that doesn't help their cause..

[TWGL1]

Johnson is shocking

I cannot believe this arsehole is running the country

He’s not … that’s obvious 😂


Tobias Ellwood is in charge of Brigade 77, a section of the Army that monitors its own population

[life on mars]

Trump of course started the rot.

But he only announce the final troop withdrawals a fortnight before the inauguration. Biden could and should have changed this decision in those first days when in a blaze of publicity he signed those various executive orders reversing other things that Trump had done.

There will be much criticism of this government over this debacle, much of it justified. But once America had decided to leave there was little we could do. I heard somewhere on TV that Boris Johnston had tried to get a group of other countries to try and step in but no one was interested. No idea how true this is.

And before Trump Obama made the same troop withdrawal quote to apease public opinion the only difference is its on Bidens watch, its not a huge force they have the same troop numbers in Europe and South Korea.
Biden could have made his win choice and kept something in place in the name of peace for innocent women and children.

[surge]

Global Britain? The UK now have a frosty relationship with the USA and Europe leaving them either reaching out to nations who aren't concerned about human rights or shouting in a chamber trying not to admit it can't actually do anything.

[Seabird]

Is Tobias Elwood related to you?:biggrin:

[life on mars]

Perhaps we should listen to Richard Burgon who along with 18 others such as Corbyn , Diane Abbott and John McDonnell who have signed a letter asking fir to reparations costs to be paid by the British government.

Now before we judge Boris unfit , please draw a breath and consider the other option of who could be in charge

No wonder we have a fruit loop in charge .🤣

[ninian opinian]

Perhaps we should listen to Richard Burgon who along with 18 others such as Corbyn , Diane Abbott and John McDonnell who have signed a letter asking fir to reparations costs to be paid by the British government.

Now before we judge Boris unfit , please draw a breath and consider the other option of who could be in charge

No wonder we have a fruit loop in charge .��

You mean Corbyn and Abbott who both voted against invading Afghanistan in the first place. Always right old Jezza.

[ToTaL ITK]

And before Trump Obama made the same troop withdrawal quote to apease public opinion the only difference is its on Bidens watch, its not a huge force they have the same troop numbers in Europe and South Korea.
Biden could have made his win choice and kept something in place in the name of peace for innocent women and children.

And before Obama!...don't stop there mate! this has been a problem for decades.

[jon1959]

The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-the-situation-in-afghanistan/

There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.

[Elwood Blues]

The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-the-situation-in-afghanistan/

There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.

The stop the war statement says "The British government should take a lead in offering a refugee programme and reparations to rebuild Afghanistan"..

Nothing wrong with the first part, yes we should take a lead in the refugee program. However the reparations part concerns me.

I do suspect that at some stage more prosperous countries will have to give financial help to Afghanistan. But are STW saying that we should immediately give cash to a regime that when it was previously in power was brutal and repressive? How would we know that they would use the money for the benefit of the Afghan people.

And if we call them reparations and give them to the Taliban what wrong are we righting there?

[RonnieBird]

The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-the-situation-in-afghanistan/

There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.


Yeah true enough, but can you suggest an alternative fruit loop who’d be better ?
I mean one in politics so who COULD get the job ? I should imagine that the average newsagent or bus conductor could do the job better.

Similarly, there’s no way forward on this. If there was ever any point other than giving politicians something to talk bollocks about and to embezzle money where no one can check, it’s over now .

The people there get to run their own affairs whether we like their ideas or not ( which is in fact right and proper ) and they’ll probably be left alone for a while,

File it.

[RonnieBird]

By the way, and with utter total respect to the poor poor bastards who were conned into giving their precious brave and honourable lives then betrayed,

- does anyone here think it is, or ever has been, our business or responsibility to tell the people of that far away region how they should run their affairs or which religion they choose to follow ?

[Elwood Blues]

Just watching a bit of the Lords debates which they are repeating now (I am a glutton for punishment and just seem an excellent speech from Lord Haine who I don't normally agree with. He was pointing out tha he was a junior defence minster in the Blair government and he did not attempt to castigate this government or Biden but instead said that all governments who have had any power in the last 20 years bear a responsibility for this mess (including Lib Dems who of course were in government from 2010 to 2015 and seem to have spent a lot of time since saying that all the good things of that government were down to them and all the bad things were the nasty tories!). Think he is quite right there.

Lord West the former Labour Defence Minister spoke in similar terms

[A Quiet Monkfish]

The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-the-situation-in-afghanistan/

There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.

What the above doesn't mention is the US had more personnel in their Consulate in Kabul than soldiers 'on the ground'. Their presence was sufficient to keep the Taliban on the margins, and the Afghan government to maintain order.

[life on mars]

Trouble with stop the war statement crew , they are an attempt to feed the students or win attention from the margins of their party , many other wrongs and atrocities in tge world ie China, Russia Iran, South America are whitewashed, its all about the headline .

[WJ99mobile]

Johnson is shocking

I cannot believe this arsehole is running the country
Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.

[life on mars]

Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.

It's a period of history that has been turbulent to say the least , Brexit, Covid, Trump , BLM , Climate ,Economic Chaos etc .

I do wonder if any other buffon could have done any worse or better something I don't know , can't judge compare Boris fully as it's not normal times, I'm sure though folk who say he's a buffon are right as they could easily have managed these last few years .

The only thing I feel personally feel, is the alternative
( Corbyn vehicle ) was a risk and a worry.

[blue matt]

Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.

indeed :thumbup:

but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact

[Eric Cartman]

Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.

Because of Covid? Boris didn't believe it was real, that does make dealing with it quite hard.

[Eric Cartman]

indeed :thumbup:

but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact

Except so far this thread is just an echo chamber of excuses and sympathy for Boris. Probably better targets for your sympathy right now, like a bunch of people so desperate to escape whatever faces them that they lose their lives falling off the undercarriage of a plane.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

indeed :thumbup:

but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact

Tory boy , always has been

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Because of Covid? Boris didn't believe it was real, that does make dealing with it quite hard.

Boris is a public school born into money asshole who is completely out of his depth

Theresa May had more balls than him and she was hopeless

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.

I don't care , he's not up to the job and if he was an army captain his troops would shoot him

[ninian opinian]

It's a period of history that has been turbulent to say the least , Brexit, Covid, Trump , BLM , Climate ,Economic Chaos etc .

I do wonder if any other buffon could have done any worse or better something I don't know , can't judge compare Boris fully as it's not normal times, I'm sure though folk who say he's a buffon are right as they could easily have managed these last few years .

The only thing I feel personally feel, is the alternative
( Corbyn vehicle ) was a risk and a worry.

Christ you’ve been brainwashed. We have an absolute clown and liar running the country and all you can come up with is but, but Corbyn.

I think you’ll find Corbyn was right all along. Voted against us invading Afghanistan. And please don’t come back with yes but Corbyn would have had tea with the Taliban etc, etc. Successive governments have invaded other countries, killing and maiming thousands and where has it got us. We are at more danger now from terrorist attacks than we’ve ever been and the country is back to square one.

[Jimmy the Jock]

The stop the war statement says "The British government should take a lead in offering a refugee programme and reparations to rebuild Afghanistan"..

Nothing wrong with the first part, yes we should take a lead in the refugee program. However the reparations part concerns me.

I do suspect that at some stage more prosperous countries will have to give financial help to Afghanistan. But are STW saying that we should immediately give cash to a regime that when it was previously in power was brutal and repressive? How would we know that they would use the money for the benefit of the Afghan people.

And if we call them reparations and give them to the Taliban what wrong are we righting there?

Isn't this a solution that has gone on for eternity.

The good guys finally stop trying to kill the bad guys , they shake hands and try to get along.
The good guys will make loadsa money helping to rebuild the damge they have done (helped by the bad guys )
The bad guys will make loadsa money doing whatever suits them (helped by the good guys.)

Human rights ? that will always be trumped by money I am afraid. Lets do some token hand wringing , we have tried everything else.

My only question is .

Are there really any good guys ?

[Jimmy the Jock]

Doesn't politics have its own separate place on this board?

I have just read the rest of the posts, people bickering about their favourite politicians .

Get it gone from here.

[RonnieBird]

Most people seem to just carry on listening to these politicians who are creating nothing but hot air.

Did anyone notice my earlier comments or are they just unthinkable?

[Hilts]

Back to the original question maybe the 2 in question dont want any part of the likes of a front bench which is probably the worst in history. Johnny Mercer I very much doubt would want to be part of it as he already wanted to resign as Veterans Minister.

[lardy]

It's not fear of your moron gang, Ronnie.

It's probably boredom with the pomposity and pointlessness of your wind ups - whether football or politics.

You can tell Ronnie is desperate for a bite, he came back 5 minutes later for a followup before anyone had even noticed his first one :hehe:

[Hilts]

You can tell Ronnie is desperate for a bite, he came back 5 minutes later for a followup before anyone had even noticed his first one :hehe:

😂😂😂😂

[life on mars]

Boris is a public school born into money asshole who is completely out of his depth

Theresa May had more balls than him and she was hopeless

Interesting to note not many statements from her on Afghanistan during her tennership and after and she had full knowledge of the withdrawal before her snipe at Boris yesterday, hindsight is a wonderful gift isn't Sir Kier and Terssa

[lardy]

Interesting to note not many statements from her on Afghanistan during her tennership and after and she had full knowledge of the withdrawal before her snipe at Boris yesterday, hindsight is a wonderful gift isn't Sir Kier and Terssa

I thought it was a wonderful speach

[Elwood Blues]

Doesn't politics have its own separate place on this board?

I have just read the rest of the posts, people bickering about their favourite politicians .

Get it gone from here.


Yes it does have a separate place, but I believe something as important as this deserves the wider circulation it gets on the main board. The Politics board tends to attract the usual suspects when it comes to discussions, and while many of the same people contribute to threads such as this on the main board as well, people who would not normally look at the politics board also contribute which I think is important.

I have long had an antipathy towards the politics board in any case. I think it pretty pointless, but that discussion needs a separate post which I will write one of these days. I think perhaps it is time we looked at it again

[Elwood Blues]

Back to the original question maybe the 2 in question dont want any part of the likes of a front bench which is probably the worst in history. Johnny Mercer I very much doubt would want to be part of it as he already wanted to resign as Veterans Minister.

I don't think we will see them in the cabinet unless there is a change of Prime Minister.

[jon1959]

I do wonder if any other buffon could have done any worse or better something I don't know , can't judge compare Boris fully as it's not normal times, I'm sure though folk who say he's a buffon are right as they could easily have managed these last few years .



I am confident that Gianluigi Buffon would have done a better job than the buffoon in No 10. :thumbup:

[life on mars]

I thought it was a wonderful speach

Thought Tom Tugendhat's hit the right and better notes .

[az city]

No it’s not that. True it’s not fear either though.
I just think it’s a bit of a pity that a few people are so obsessed with their own egos that they can’t enjoy and often won’t tolerate the exploration of anything which bucks their current pattern of thinking.

Of course that’s how we advance and it’s sometimes both interesting and entertaining, which does no harm. Look ,you’re as bad as anyone if you think about it - what did you want to do there - add to the conversation, challenge the concept or just call me a big twat and somehow boost yourself up by diminishing someone else or what they said ?

Huh? Look in the mirror, mate. Mostly you post contrarian viewpoints just designed to elicit a response. You surely don't believe a lot of the tripe you come out with? You're even posting climate-change denier BS.

[Elwood Blues]

I thought it was a wonderful speach

As I pointed earlier in this thread, Lord Hain gave an excellent speech in the Lords where he said that all governments in the last 20 years bear responsibility and he wasn't going to get into the finger pointing at current politicians. This includes Theresa May's governments and I wonder what plans were put in place for such things as Visa's for interpreters and other vulnerable Afghansand indeed what contingency for an event such as this.

She spoke many fine words but would she have done any better when push came to shove??

[life on mars]

As I pointed earlier in this thread, Lord Hain gave an excellent speech in the Lords where he said that all governments in the last 20 years bear responsibility and he wasn't going to get into the finger pointing at current politicians. This includes Theresa May's governments and I wonder what plans were put in place for such things as Visa's for interpreters and other vulnerable Afghansand indeed what contingency for an event such as this.

She spoke many fine words but would she have done any better when push came to shove??

Not a single MP could have done a thing , logistically once USA pulled out we were done like a kipper.

The only thing any UK politician could have done differently was not be on holiday and have a phone on 24/7 .

Its worth noting since April repatriations have been taking place from Afghanistan to UK , as have discussion.

Most politicians knew the Taliban would become a force that's why for the last two years they have been engaged in discussions with the west , its fair to say most experts were shocked at thier sudden advances by such a relatively small force in such a big country against a huge number of people???

[Gofer Blue]

Not a single MP could have done a thing , logistically once USA pulled out we were done like a kipper.

The only thing any UK politician could have done differently was not be on holiday and have a phone on 24/7 .

Its worth noting since April repatriations have been taking place from Afghanistan to UK , as have discussion.

Most politicians knew the Taliban would become a force that's why for the last two years they have been engaged in discussions with the west , its fair to say most experts were shocked at thier sudden advances by such a relatively small force in such a big country against a huge number of people???

The blame for that lies squarely with the Afghan army who, basically, ran away.