View Full Version : Yma O Hyd
I wasn't at the game unfortunately but I just saw this video of Dafydd Iwan, incredible atmosphere. So good to see the passion behind a Welsh language song from young and old!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&fbclid=IwAR3nuu3ldFKdB8QhPBGELkP_qk69k7uuYzvNaETri hdD90Lu5i3aUyYWBdE&v=emPhXdwhQoE&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=VirginMediaSport
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 06:26
Passion at the rugby ?
You are having a laugh 😃
Passion at the rugby ?
You are having a laugh ��
Rugby?
Mr Soul '68
28-03-22, 07:11
Passion at the rugby ?
You are having a laugh ��
Sludgey, the clip is from Wales v Austria last week!
I bet you are currently phoning your mates in the metal world to do a thrash version, eh?
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 07:38
Rugby?
I was being sarcastic
At the rugby you get a few Tom Jones songs rattled out by pissed up once a year look at me in my daffodil fancy dress .
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 07:39
Sludgey, the clip is from Wales v Austria last week!
I bet you are currently phoning your mates in the metal world to do a thrash version, eh?
I know that , I was taking the piss
Amazing video and you wouldn't get that passion at the rugby , it's just not in the same league
Football fans, always been far far better than rugby counterparts
Enoch Mort
28-03-22, 08:09
Very powerful song with the crowd generating a great atmosphere. Pity about the bloke at 2.00 into the clip who is more preoccupied with his phone than the fervour of the occasion.
Football fans, always been far far better than rugby counterparts
that depends entirely on your definition of better
To be fair , I’ve followed Wales home and away for years and it’s only really since around 2015 that the atmosphere at Welsh football games has been great.
Welsh rugby on the other hand was always superb until around the redevelopment of the National Stadium (to the Millennium)
Very powerful song with the crowd generating a great atmosphere. Pity about the bloke at 2.00 into the clip who is more preoccupied with his phone than the fervour of the occasion.
Yes that grated a bit but it was great to see so many singing with such passion. It’s not something Dafydd Iwan will ever forget.
Very powerful song with the crowd generating a great atmosphere. Pity about the bloke at 2.00 into the clip who is more preoccupied with his phone than the fervour of the occasion.
Give him the benefit of the doubt, he was probably googling the lyrics.
William Treseder
28-03-22, 09:52
that depends entirely on your definition of better
We really have got to get out of this siege mentality, small country syndrome.
As a born and bred Cardiff boy, i am so proud of all our national sporting teams.
Ok, so your PE teacher may have forced the oval ball game on you, and the media maybe rugby biased, and other countries may stereotype us as a rugby nation, but we really should be moving away from all that claptrap now.We continually punch above our weight in rugby and football, so lets be proud of that.
In Italy, France, England, Ireland and Scotland both sports thrive, with no small minded animosity .
I wonder now if we'll get more than a 30 second clip of it at the CCS before City games before the 10 second clip of that Frank Hennessy noise....
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 10:02
To be fair , I’ve followed Wales home and away for years and it’s only really since around 2015 that the atmosphere at Welsh football games has been great.
Welsh rugby on the other hand was always superb until around the redevelopment of the National Stadium (to the Millennium)
Going to have to disagree with that
If Wales are not doing very well in the rugby most of the fans just get pissed
There is very little singing going on , even when Wales are on top
No real passion at all , unlike that video of the Wales Austria game
It's incredibly emotional but sadly it won't get the coverage that anything rugby related gets
A day after the win against Austria the back page of the Western Mail was covered with a story about the game v France the Saturday before
Its a complete and utter joke . There are football fans out there who in the same way the Welsh rugby fans say as long as we beat the English as long as ccfc , swans win the rugby can piss off and we can call that childish but I can understand it .
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 10:05
I wonder now if we'll get more than a 30 second clip of it at the CCS before City games before the 10 second clip of that Frank Hennessy noise....
Frank Hennesey is a rugby boy and has no interest in CCFC
Which is fine because I have never met anyone who has any interest in him.
It was cringeworthy that he and daffyd Ellis Thomas........who when interviewed said he was a man United fan ffs .....were wheeled out when we got to the cup final v pompey
Stick to your rugby 🏉
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 10:08
We really have got to get out of this siege mentality, small country syndrome.
As a born and bred Cardiff boy, i am so proud of all our national sporting teams.
Ok, so your PE teacher may have forced the oval ball game on you, and the media maybe rugby biased, and other countries may stereotype us as a rugby nation, but we really should be moving away from all that claptrap now.We continually punch above our weight in rugby and football, so lets be proud of that.
In Italy, France, England, Ireland and Scotland both sports thrive, with no small minded animosity .
You have just given some of the reasons why a lot of South Wales football fans really can't be doing with rugby and then say but never mind......
It's not as simple as that I am afraid
I wonder now if we'll get more than a 30 second clip of it at the CCS before City games before the 10 second clip of that Frank Hennessy noise....
I quite like the Hennessy clip. Yes, it's old school and stereotypical, but he's as much a part of Cardiff - more, arguably - as Dafydd Iwan, and I say that as a proud Welsh speaker who'd love nothing more than to see more people use the language. Yma o Hyd is a tub-thumping anthem that I've shouted (my voice is awful) more times than I care to remember, but the club and city represent Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised the song seems to have been adopted so readily by non-Welsh speakers.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm starting to get a bit concerned that Yma o Hyd is becoming too mainstream and far too overplayed. It's an awful comparison, but it feels like our version of Sweet Caroline, which used to be a nice song, but is now played everywhere, from numerous betting adverts to every England game.
The other huge factor being that you always get much better atmosphere at night games.
I would far rather have the full version of Yma o Hyd played before the City games than the Hennessy clip. But I understand where you're coming from.
William Treseder
28-03-22, 10:19
You have just given some of the reasons why a lot of South Wales football fans really can't be doing with rugby and then say but never mind......
It's not as simple as that I am afraid
Not if your small minded it’s not.
I would far rather have the full version of Yma o Hyd played before the City games than the Hennessy clip. But I understand where you're coming from.
:thumbup:
Mr Soul '68
28-03-22, 10:29
I know that , I was taking the piss
Amazing video and you wouldn't get that passion at the rugby , it's just not in the same league
Wales seems to have replaced rugby as the main sport of the nation as far as those attending matches of the respective national teams go. Rugby these days, and has been for a long time, is made up of mainly middle class people and those who can afford the outrageous prices the RFU charges for tickets to watch an international game
I quite like the Hennessy clip. Yes, it's old school and stereotypical, but he's as much a part of Cardiff - more, arguably - as Dafydd Iwan, and I say that as a proud Welsh speaker who'd love nothing more than to see more people use the language. Yma o Hyd is a tub-thumping anthem that I've shouted (my voice is awful) more times than I care to remember, but the club and city represent Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised the song seems to have been adopted so readily by non-Welsh speakers.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm starting to get a bit concerned that Yma o Hyd is becoming too mainstream and far too overplayed. It's an awful comparison, but it feels like our version of Sweet Caroline, which used to be a nice song, but is now played everywhere, from numerous betting adverts to every England game.
Why?
Could it be that you feel that there is some sort of bad feeling between non-speakers and speakers of the language.
Could it be that there is some sort of snobbery surrounding the Welsh speaking migrants sweeping through Pontcanna and Canton which fuels this feeling? Shirley not.
The fact that there are people in Wales that do not speak Welsh is no fault of theirs, but the past education system here.
Non-Welsh speaking people have been singing Mae hen wlad fy nhadau for years so why would they not join their Welsh speaking compatriots in such a heart-warming anthem?
Cymru am byth :wales:
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 10:39
Not if your small minded it’s not.
Well I think you are being disingenuous to the very people you are talking about who feel they have every right to cock their nose up at Rugby as that's exactly what they have been subject to
You have already yourself listed bullying sports teachers not allowing youngsters to play football and the media overkill
Are you saying those points you raised are not valid ?
Or they are but because YOU don't let it bother you then all those people with a disdain for Welsh rugby have to like it or lump it ?
As far as I am concerned if one of city or Swansea supporting mates say I fecking can't stand rugby I don't agree 100 percent but I can see why they give it the elbow .
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 10:41
Why?
Could it be that you feel that there is some sort of bad feeling between non-speakers and speakers of the language.
Could it be that there is some sort of snobbery surrounding the Welsh speaking migrants sweeping through Pontcanna and Canton which fuels this feeling? Shirley not.
The fact that there are people in Wales that do not speak Welsh is no fault of theirs, but the past education system here.
Non-Welsh speaking people have been singing Mae hen wlad fy nhadau for years so why would they not join their Welsh speaking compatriots in such a heart-warming anthem?
Cymru am byth :wales:
Pontcanna , dreadful place , minor media celebrity land
The Lone Gunman
28-03-22, 10:46
The fact that there are people in Wales that do not speak Welsh is no fault of theirs, but the past education system here.
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
Why?
Could it be that you feel that there is some sort of bad feeling between non-speakers and speakers of the language.
Could it be that there is some sort of snobbery surrounding the Welsh speaking migrants sweeping through Pontcanna and Canton which fuels this feeling? Shirley not.
The fact that there are people in Wales that do not speak Welsh is no fault of theirs, but the past education system here.
Non-Welsh speaking people have been singing Mae hen wlad fy nhadau for years so why would they not join their Welsh speaking compatriots in such a heart-warming anthem?
Cymru am byth :wales:
As a Welsh-speaker growing up in the Valleys, I was always aware of being in the minority. There remains a growing number of Welsh Primary and Secondary Schools in traditionally non-Welsh speaking areas of Wales, where the schools are effectively gulags, with the language only really being used in the classroom. Once the kids leave the school gate, the language is left behind. Going off on a tangent, my mother, who was from Maesteg, campaigned for a Welsh unit in a primary school in the mid-80s and was told by the then-Labour MP Allan Rogers to "go back to Welsh Wales, love". The irony of the same politician opening said unit a year later has never been lost on me.
I guess I've always been aware that the language is a divisive issue in Wales. As I said, I would love to see more people in Wales speak the language - and I use it whenever and wherever I can - but I'm always conscious of ramming the language down people's throat, so to speak. It's not for everyone, hence why I thought Yma O Hyd might not be "i ddant pawb", as we say in Welsh (i.e to everyone's taste). It was in no way meant to be a sinister or snobbish comment, I can assure you.
:thumbup:
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
if I had a magic pill that I could take and instantly be fluent in any one language, I probably still wouldn't choose Welsh .
it'd be in my top 3 probably though
the other bob wilson
28-03-22, 10:55
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
Having been taught Welsh between the ages of twelve and thirteen, I reckon I’d still be trying to master it now if I’d continued with my studies, Duw, it was hard.
I took French and Latin for those two years in school as well and found them both a lot easier to pick up than Welsh which struck me very much as a language you needed to be taught at the earliest age possible.
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
Learning a language properly takes time and a lot of regular practice. Once a week isn't enough.
Many people don't have the free time to give to it, even if they want to - for example job and family commitments eating up the vast majority of their time. I wouldn't say that anyone who hasn't learned simply can't be arsed
The Lone Gunman
28-03-22, 10:59
It's not for everyone, hence why I thought Yma O Hyd might not be "i ddant pawb", as we say in Welsh (i.e to everyone's taste).
I think Yma O Hyd is a dreadful dirge and, considering the lyrics, I find it more than a little ironic that it gets sung at Welsh football matches. But, as you say, each to their own.
The Lone Gunman
28-03-22, 11:05
I wouldn't say that anyone who hasn't learned simply can't be arsed
I didn’t say anyone, I said the vast majority of us can’t be arsed, and I stand by that 100%.
Fair play to anyone who has tried to learn Welsh and has had to give up due to time constraints or simply because they found it too difficult, but I think we both know that most of us haven’t given the notion a second thought since we left school.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 11:09
I didn’t say anyone, I said the vast majority of us can’t be arsed, and I stand by that 100%.
Fair play to anyone who has tried to learn Welsh and has had to give up due to time constraints or simply because they found it too difficult, but I think we both know that most of us haven’t given the notion a second thought since we left school.
Most English language people find learning Welsh very difficult
Often people coming from abroad with English as a second language pick up Welsh with relative ease
As a Welsh-speaker growing up in the Valleys, I was always aware of being in the minority. There remains a growing number of Welsh Primary and Secondary Schools in traditionally non-Welsh speaking areas of Wales, where the schools are effectively gulags, with the language only really being used in the classroom. Once the kids leave the school gate, the language is left behind. Going off on a tangent, my mother, who was from Maesteg, campaigned for a Welsh unit in a primary school in the mid-80s and was told by the then-Labour MP Allan Rogers to "go back to Welsh Wales, love". The irony of the same politician opening said unit a year later has never been lost on me.
I guess I've always been aware that the language is a divisive issue in Wales. As I said, I would love to see more people in Wales speak the language - and I use it whenever and wherever I can - but I'm always conscious of ramming the language down people's throat, so to speak. It's not for everyone, hence why I thought Yma O Hyd might not be "i ddant pawb", as we say in Welsh (i.e to everyone's taste). It was in no way meant to be a sinister or snobbish comment, I can assure you.
:thumbup:
:thumbup:
that depends entirely on your definition of better
Real
As a Welsh-speaker growing up in the Valleys, I was always aware of being in the minority. There remains a growing number of Welsh Primary and Secondary Schools in traditionally non-Welsh speaking areas of Wales, where the schools are effectively gulags, with the language only really being used in the classroom. Once the kids leave the school gate, the language is left behind. Going off on a tangent, my mother, who was from Maesteg, campaigned for a Welsh unit in a primary school in the mid-80s and was told by the then-Labour MP Allan Rogers to "go back to Welsh Wales, love". The irony of the same politician opening said unit a year later has never been lost on me.
I guess I've always been aware that the language is a divisive issue in Wales. As I said, I would love to see more people in Wales speak the language - and I use it whenever and wherever I can - but I'm always conscious of ramming the language down people's throat, so to speak. It's not for everyone, hence why I thought Yma O Hyd might not be "i ddant pawb", as we say in Welsh (i.e to everyone's taste). It was in no way meant to be a sinister or snobbish comment, I can assure you.
:thumbup:
My son is in Derbyn, and his Welsh is coming on really well, however , I do resonate with your “gulag” and comment, as in as soon as he leaves school he reverts to speaking English even with his Welsh speaking class friends.
We as parents are learning Welsh however , is so difficult to pick up. That said I’m proud as punch with his progress.
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
I wish I could.
But, as mentioned, being born in 1954 I had no opportunity to learn while in school, I then spent my college years and much of my working lie in England.
Shortly after moving to Cardiff I suffered a stroke, limiting my mobility and losing my driving licence.
I wolud love to learn , even now, but mobility problems are a major hindrance.
My son is in Derbyn, and his Welsh is coming on really well, however , I do resonate with your “gulag” and comment, as in as soon as he leaves school he reverts to speaking English even with his Welsh speaking class friends.
We as parents are learning Welsh however , is so difficult to pick up. That said I’m proud as punch with his progress.
Great to hear you're all learning the language. I was lucky enough to have been brought up in a bilingual household, where I spoke to Welsh to Mam and English to Dad. Like any language, I can well imagine it is difficult to learn. As someone else has said on here, hopefully being bilingual your kids (and you, as parents) may find it slightly easier learning a third language such as French or German, if and when that time comes.
Pob lwc!
As if by magic…..
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/watching-wales-football-team-become-23517725
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 15:36
Many English speaking Welsh people talk about learning the language and quite a few try
But life throws up many things and if I 2as asked if I wanted to try and learn the language I would say I don't have the time or interest
I would rather go for a walk , go fishing or learn to cook as I am a crap cook
Welsh doesn't interest me at all
That doesn't mean that I don't think kids should use the language and pass it on
However the double printing of official forms in Welsh and English is a waste of money especially in South East Wales and the Valleys as are the bilingual answering services on gp phonelines , local council offices , social services etc
Barry ?
Bridgend ?
I know about 20 Welsh speakers , all of them speak English, it's daft
I could understand it in Llanberis or Caernarfon
William Treseder
28-03-22, 15:57
Well I think you are being disingenuous to the very people you are talking about who feel they have every right to cock their nose up at Rugby as that's exactly what they have been subject to
You have already yourself listed bullying sports teachers not allowing youngsters to play football and the media overkill
Are you saying those points you raised are not valid ?
Or they are but because YOU don't let it bother you then all those people with a disdain for Welsh rugby have to like it or lump it ?
As far as I am concerned if one of city or Swansea supporting mates say I fecking can't stand rugby I don't agree 100 percent but I can see why they give it the elbow .
The Rugby haters are in a minority among City fans. The majority i know (and that’s a lot) tend to like, and watch both.
Taffy Blue in Berkshire
28-03-22, 16:11
Having been taught Welsh between the ages of twelve and thirteen, I reckon I’d still be trying to master it now if I’d continued with my studies, Duw, it was hard.
I took French and Latin for those two years in school as well and found them both a lot easier to pick up than Welsh which struck me very much as a language you needed to be taught at the earliest age possible.
I was taught Welsh for 4 years in Primary School in Llanishen around 1960 and then 2 years in secondary. Since then I learnt French and Latin and lived in Germany for 8.5 years in the 80's. My French is ok now as I'm often in France, my German pretty good and I can order food and drink in Spanish and Italian.
Sadly my Welsh is limited to half a dozen sentences and understanding some of the sports commentary on S4C.
Wonderful song and great atmosphere and wish I understood all the words to do it justice. TIB
UNDERHILL1927
28-03-22, 16:22
Why turn a perfectly good thread into a football v rugby battle. Childish from any side that resorts to this.
This song is all about bringing Wales together to show we’re still here….not still here apart from those rugby/football lot. Grow up
UNDERHILL1927
28-03-22, 16:27
And on the note of the Welsh language I’m embarrassed that I’ve never learnt it. I was taught French in school, ****ing French.
I was on the fence but this video has tipped me over and I’m starting to learn Welsh in the next few weeks.
StraightOuttaCanton
28-03-22, 16:57
I’ve not been in the stadium for a Welsh game since 2019 so I think I’ve missed the introduction of Yma O Hyd. When did it start and was there any stimulus (BBC Wales TV preview maybe)?
Anyone know what the song is actually about? My 10 year old said he sang it in school on st david’s day recently and it’s something along the lines of “I’m still here”….
Anyone know what the song is actually about? My 10 year old said he sang it in school on st david’s day recently and it’s something along the lines of “I’m still here”….
I found this the other day, I bookmarked it
Still Here
You don't remember Macsen,1
nobody knows him.
One thousand and six hundred years,
a time too long to remember.
When Magnus Maximus2 left Wales,
in the year 383,
leaving us a whole nation,
and today - look at us!
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here.
Let the wind blow from the East,3
let the storm roar from the sea,
let the lightning split the heavens,
and the thunder shout "encore!"
Let the tears of the faint-hearted flow,
and the servile lick the floor.
Despite the blackness around us,
we are ready for the breaking of the dawn!
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here.
We remember that Macsen the Emperor
left our country in one whole piece.
And we shall shout before the nations,
"We'll be here until Judgement Day!"
Despite every Dic Siôn Dafydd,4
despite old Maggie5 and her crew,
we'll be here until the end of time,
and the Welsh language will be alive!
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything.
We are still here,
we are still here,
in spite of everyone and everything,
in spite of everyone and everything...
1. The Welsh name for Magnus Maximus, Macsen Wledig. See below.
2. Welsh emperor of the Western Roman Empire, 383-388.
3. Referring to the Anglo-Saxon settlements east of Welsh territory.
4. A character in a poem of the Welsh satirical poet Jac Glan-y-gors.
5. Margaret Thatcher, prime minister of the United Kingdom, 1979-1990.
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/yma-o-hyd-still-here.html
And on the note of the Welsh language I’m embarrassed that I’ve never learnt it. I was taught French in school, ****ing French.
I was on the fence but this video has tipped me over and I’m starting to learn Welsh in the next few weeks.
I did Welsh History ( or a form of it ) in Barry boys Comp ( instead of a language ) got me fairly interested in learning more ( this was before the interweb ) and got me fairly deep into the Free Wales army / Meibion Glyndwr
my daughter is learning welsh at the mo, kids pick up languages fairly easy, she is doing Spanish in school and Welsh at home
I quite like it at Wales games - but hate it played down the city....relate more to cardiff born cardiff bred.
I quite like it at Wales games - but hate it played down the city....relate more to cardiff born cardiff bred.
Yeah I think it suits a Wales match for sure, they travel down from up north in good numbers aswell. I bet they love it, the ones I know really enjoy coming down here for a big night….
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 19:25
I quite like it at Wales games - but hate it played down the city....relate more to cardiff born cardiff bred.
Men of Harlech christ that's dreadful
Men of Harlech christ that's dreadful
Yes that’s terrible…. It would perhaps be more tolerable if people sang the words :hehe:
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 19:30
Yes that’s terrible…. It would perhaps be more tolerable if people sang the words :hehe:
That's not going to happen , it's more than one line
Our lot can't cope 😢
dembethewarrior
28-03-22, 19:39
Very powerful song with the crowd generating a great atmosphere. Pity about the bloke at 2.00 into the clip who is more preoccupied with his phone than the fervour of the occasion.
Depends what he was using his phone for really doesn't it.
dembethewarrior
28-03-22, 19:44
I quite like the Hennessy clip. Yes, it's old school and stereotypical, but he's as much a part of Cardiff - more, arguably - as Dafydd Iwan, and I say that as a proud Welsh speaker who'd love nothing more than to see more people use the language. Yma o Hyd is a tub-thumping anthem that I've shouted (my voice is awful) more times than I care to remember, but the club and city represent Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised the song seems to have been adopted so readily by non-Welsh speakers.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm starting to get a bit concerned that Yma o Hyd is becoming too mainstream and far too overplayed. It's an awful comparison, but it feels like our version of Sweet Caroline, which used to be a nice song, but is now played everywhere, from numerous betting adverts to every England game.
You are not rationing a chocolate bar during world War 2, you don't have to savour it.
Nowhere near the level that sweet Caroline is used.
dembethewarrior
28-03-22, 19:49
Let’s be honest, anyone and everyone in Wales who wants to learn to speak Welsh can do so. But the vast majority of us just can’t be arsed.
That means going out of your own way to learn a skill. Not the same as being taught in school, people are more likely to bother if it is being taught.
I've fancied learning a language for ages, but I question my desire because I never actually get around to doing it even at times I've got hours spare in a day..it's the effort that puts me off. Not many people go out of their way to make extra effort..
Many English speaking Welsh people talk about learning the language and quite a few try
But life throws up many things and if I 2as asked if I wanted to try and learn the language I would say I don't have the time or interest
I would rather go for a walk , go fishing or learn to cook as I am a crap cook
Welsh doesn't interest me at all
That doesn't mean that I don't think kids should use the language and pass it on
However the double printing of official forms in Welsh and English is a waste of money especially in South East Wales and the Valleys as are the bilingual answering services on gp phonelines , local council offices , social services etc
Barry ?
Bridgend ?
I know about 20 Welsh speakers , all of them speak English, it's daft
I could understand it in Llanberis or Caernarfon
Why is it a waste of money?
Why should someone who wants to fill in forms in their own language have to do it in English.
Would you expect a bi lingual French man to fill it one in English just because he can.
As for the waste of time in South East Wales and the Valleys statement that shows an ignorance on your part.
You under estimate how many welsh speakers there are in these areas.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 20:44
Why is it a waste of money?
Why should someone who wants to fill in forms in their own language have to do it in English.
Would you expect a bi lingual French man to fill it one in English just because he can.
As for the waste of time in South East Wales and the Valleys statement that shows an ignorance on your part.
You under estimate how many welsh speakers there are in these areas.
I would have bilingual forms and council services in predominantly welsh speaking areas but in most of South Wales I think it's a daft box ticking exercise
Most welsh speakers I know don't bother with S4C and certainly don't fill in forms in welsh
WTF is the point of having a woman on the council telephone answering machine in Bridgend speak to you in welsh ?
Carmarthen I can dig that
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 21:04
Many English speaking Welsh people talk about learning the language and quite a few try
But life throws up many things and if I 2as asked if I wanted to try and learn the language I would say I don't have the time or interest
I would rather go for a walk , go fishing or learn to cook as I am a crap cook
Welsh doesn't interest me at all
That doesn't mean that I don't think kids should use the language and pass it on
However the double printing of official forms in Welsh and English is a waste of money especially in South East Wales and the Valleys as are the bilingual answering services on gp phonelines , local council offices , social services etc
Barry ?
Bridgend ?
I know about 20 Welsh speakers , all of them speak English, it's daft
I could understand it in Llanberis or Caernarfon
But surely every Welsh speaker has the right in our country to receive government/council forms/literature etc in Welsh? What a poor country we would be if we denied Welsh speakers the opportunity to use Welsh as it's a waste of money.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 21:31
But surely every Welsh speaker has the right in our country to receive government/council forms/literature etc in Welsh? What a poor country we would be if we denied Welsh speakers the opportunity to use Welsh as it's a waste of money.
Well I don't think it's as clear cut as that
The vast majority of forms in Welsh from government agencies that arrive on the doorstep in South East Wales go in the recycling
In South West Wales it's almost certainly going to be that a fair amount are used as Welsh is the dominant language in Carmarthenshire etc
I think in an area where Welsh is spoken hugely as a living language Welsh speakers should be provided with Welsh forms
But what's the point of spending money on Welsh council forms where the language isn't used on a day to day basis
Apart from the pontcanna taffia District where in Cardiff are people conversing in Welsh on a level that justifies spending money on forms , signage etc ?
I just think it's daft and doesn't do anything to strengthen the language
Welsh will never die now , it will always be here as the song says , like the country but the way to keep it growing is by teaching people how to speak it in English speaking Wales in schools , night classes etc
We are not going to preserve Welsh by having council tax forms sent out in Welsh
It's just a waste of money that could be spent on teaching or promoting the language . Having a form come through your door in Welsh isn't going to do that .
I would have bilingual forms and council services in predominantly welsh speaking areas but in most of South Wales I think it's a daft box ticking exercise
Most welsh speakers I know don't bother with S4C and certainly don't fill in forms in welsh
WTF is the point of having a woman on the council telephone answering machine in Bridgend speak to you in welsh ?
Carmarthen I can dig that
Nobody in Bridgend speaks Welsh?
That's funny because there were bus loads from Bridgend and Maesteg in my school.
More people speak welsh in Wales than fish.
So on that bssis what is the point of fishing?
Just because you don't use a service doesn't mean that others don't
Well I don't think it's as clear cut as that
The vast majority of forms in Welsh from government agencies that arrive on the doorstep in South East Wales go in the recycling
In South West Wales it's almost certainly going to be that a fair amount are used as Welsh is the dominant language in Carmarthenshire etc
I think in an area where Welsh is spoken hugely as a living language Welsh speakers should be provided with Welsh forms
But what's the point of spending money on Welsh council forms where the language isn't used on a day to day basis
Apart from the pontcanna taffia District where in Cardiff are people conversing in Welsh on a level that justifies spending money on forms , signage etc ?
I just think it's daft and doesn't do anything to strengthen the language
Welsh will never die now , it will always be here as the song says , like the country but the way to keep it growing is by teaching people how to speak it in English speaking Wales in schools , night classes etc
We are not going to preserve Welsh by having council tax forms sent out in Welsh
It's just a waste of money that could be spent on teaching or promoting the language . Having a form come through your door in Welsh isn't going to do that .
Disgraceful attitude.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 21:40
Well I don't think it's as clear cut as that
The vast majority of forms in Welsh from government agencies that arrive on the doorstep in South East Wales go in the recycling
In South West Wales it's almost certainly going to be that a fair amount are used as Welsh is the dominant language in Carmarthenshire etc
I think in an area where Welsh is spoken hugely as a living language Welsh speakers should be provided with Welsh forms
But what's the point of spending money on Welsh council forms where the language isn't used on a day to day basis
Apart from the pontcanna taffia District where in Cardiff are people conversing in Welsh on a level that justifies spending money on forms , signage etc ?
I just think it's daft and doesn't do anything to strengthen the language
Welsh will never die now , it will always be here as the song says , like the country but the way to keep it growing is by teaching people how to speak it in English speaking Wales in schools , night classes etc
We are not going to preserve Welsh by having council tax forms sent out in Welsh
It's just a waste of money that could be spent on teaching or promoting the language . Having a form come through your door in Welsh isn't going to do that .
So, just for the record, you think it's a waste of money for Welsh speakers to be able to communicate in Welsh for government/local authority services in predominantly non Welsh speaking areas? Would you also get rid of Welsh language council phone lines in councils where Welsh speakers are in a minority?
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 21:41
Disgraceful attitude.
It certainly is.
How many other countries in the world would have people suggesting their own people should be denied the opportunity to use their own language?
I must of watched it 20 times on YouTube. I was lucky enough too be there on the night it was amazing. Comments on social media from all parts of the world are saying how passionate the Welsh fans are. We may not be the best team in the world but our passion and songs like Yma O Hyd sets us apart from all others:wales:
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 21:45
Nobody in Bridgend speaks Welsh?
That's funny because there were bus loads from Bridgend and Maesteg in my school.
More people speak welsh in Wales than fish.
So on that bssis what is the point of fishing?
Just because you don't use a service doesn't mean that others don't
Well I certainly havnt said that nobody in Bridgend speaks Welsh
There a shop in Bridgend , a little shop on the cobbled Bridge over the river . It's a welsh shop selling Welsh stuff . It's the only shop of its kind in Bridgend . I certainly hope it survives but its not going to be kept going by people getting sent forms from Bridgend Council in Welsh.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 21:49
Disgraceful attitude.
I don't think there's anything disgraceful about stating that spending money on bilingual Council forms that in many places are simply thrown in the bin is daft
I would spend the money on night classes to help people speak Welsh
Spending money on council tax forms in Welsh in Splott is ridiculous
I think Yma O Hyd is a dreadful dirge and, considering the lyrics, I find it more than a little ironic that it gets sung at Welsh football matches.
Yeah let's have GSTQ instead unless you have a better suggestion. which I doubt.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 21:52
So, just for the record, you think it's a waste of money for Welsh speakers to be able to communicate in Welsh for government/local authority services in predominantly non Welsh speaking areas?
Yes it's daft
Would you also get rid of Welsh language council phone lines in councils where Welsh speakers are in a minority?
Yep
You also phone up the doctors locally and you have 3 minutes of a recorded message in Welsh then English
It's ridiculous
I don't think there's anything disgraceful about stating that spending money on bilingual Council forms that in many places are simply thrown in the bin is daft
I would spend the money on night classes to help people speak Welsh
Spending money on council tax forms in Welsh in Splott is ridiculous
What would be the point in the classes? In your World there'd be no form in Welsh for the students to fill in.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 21:57
It certainly is.
How many other countries in the world would have people suggesting their own people should be denied the opportunity to use their own language?
I am not saying that though
I am saying in predominantly English speaking areas of South Wales drop all the silly box ticking nonsense
There are loads of ways Welsh speaking people can use the language as a living language
Try finding a Welsh speaking member of staff to deal with your council tax problem in say Barry
Good luck with that
I don't think there's anything disgraceful about stating that spending money on bilingual Council forms that in many places are simply thrown in the bin is daft
I would spend the money on night classes to help people speak Welsh
Spending money on council tax forms in Welsh in Splott is ridiculous
You do realise there a welsh school in Splott?
There are welsh speaking clubs in Cardiff plus sport teams but you think no welsh is spoke there? Weird
As for forms thrown in the bin most are welsh on.one side and English on the other.
I find it strange that because you don't speak welsh then using forms in the language should stop.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 22:00
Yep
You also phone up the doctors locally and you have 3 minutes of a recorded message in Welsh then English
It's ridiculous
I tell you what is ridiculous, denying Welsh speakers the opportunity to use Welsh.
The Welsh language has been on its arse in recent decades because, in part, people have been denied the opportunity to use the language. We now have an act giving Welsh equal prominence with English. It ensures anyone who wants to be able to use the medium of Welsh to communicate with publicly funded organisations are able to do so as a fundamental right. You want to remove that right from Welsh speakers. What effect will that have on the language? Not a positive one. A language dies a word at a time.
You clearly don't agree with Welsh speakers having this right - it's a waste of money.
Funnily enough, about 10 years ago I used to have the same opinion as you. I have radically changed my mind on the subject. My wife speaks Welsh. She chooses to communicate with our council in Welsh. I would never deny her that opportunity. I have Welsh speaking friends who do the same.
I am not saying that though
I am saying in predominantly English speaking areas of South Wales drop all the silly box ticking nonsense
There are loads of ways Welsh speaking people can use the language as a living language
Try finding a Welsh speaking member of staff to deal with your council tax problem in say Barry
Good luck with that
There are Welsh speakers all over South Wales, if a Welsh speaker wants a form /phone message in Welsh they should be able to have it.
The moment you stop providing that service the language will quietly start to die.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:01
What would be the point in the classes? In your World there'd be no form in Welsh for the students to fill in.
So people are learning Welsh so they can fill in Cardiff County Council forms ?
Or you are talking about other forms ?
Do you think the Welsh language is stronger through more people being taught it as youngsters and young adults or by people DEMANDING to be provided with Welsh language council tax forms ?
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 22:05
So people are learning Welsh so they can fill in Cardiff County Council forms ?
Or you are talking about other forms ?
Do you think the Welsh language is stronger through more people being taught it as youngsters and young adults or by people DEMANDING to be provided with Welsh language council tax forms ?
Simple question, yes or no.
Should Welsh speakers, regardless of where they live in Wales, be able to communicate in Welsh to their local council, government etc?
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:05
You do realise there a welsh school in Splott?
There are welsh speaking clubs in Cardiff plus sport teams but you think no welsh is spoke there? Weird
As for forms thrown in the bin most are welsh on.one side and English on the other.
I find it strange that because you don't speak welsh then using forms in the language should stop.
I don't think it's because I don't speak Welsh that these bilingual forms should stop .
I think they should stop because it's a waste of money and box ticking .
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:07
There are Welsh speakers all over South Wales, if a Welsh speaker wants a form /phone message in Welsh they should be able to have it.
The moment you stop providing that service the language will quietly start to die.
I don't think anyone can demand something and expect to get it
It's 2022 , the welsh language is strong and its strong because people are speaking it and people are learning it . They are not learning it by getting a form through the post in welsh as well as English.
So people are learning Welsh so they can fill in Cardiff County Council forms ?
Or you are talking about other forms ?
Do you think the Welsh language is stronger through more people being taught it as youngsters and young adults or by people DEMANDING to be provided with Welsh language council tax forms ?
In it's simplest terms you're saying that someone who is Welsh speaking shouldn't get a form or message in Welsh when they are in Wales.
I really can't understand why you think that's reasonable.
I'm not saying that people learn Welsh in order to fill in forms, I know people who can't speak Welsh but fill in the Welsh part of the form as they want the form to be sent out in Welsh in the future!
Clearly education makes the language stronger, that's a no-brainer. Only sending out English forms means that Welsh speakers don't get the option, but they should get that option for the reasons in the first paragraph.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:10
Simple question, yes or no.
Should Welsh speakers, regardless of where they live in Wales, be able to communicate in Welsh to their local council, government etc?
No
I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .
I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:17
In it's simplest terms you're saying that someone who is Welsh speaking shouldn't get a form or message in Welsh when they are in Wales.
I really can't understand why you think that's reasonable.
I'm not saying that people learn Welsh in order to fill in forms, I know people who can't speak Welsh but fill in the Welsh part of the form as they want the form to be sent out in Welsh in the future!
Clearly education makes the language stronger, that's a no-brainer. Only sending out English forms means that Welsh speakers don't get the option, but they should get that option for the reasons in the first paragraph.
They have been given that right now but I think it's daft
There's 200 people in my street
3 houses are Welsh speaking
They get council tax forms in Welsh and English, most people in the street don't speak welsh and can't understand the forms , they are bilingual and can understand English ....it just seems a waste of money when it's just a bloody form
Eric the Half a Bee
28-03-22, 22:20
No
I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .
I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.
End of argument from me. No point carrying on with it. You have an attitude towards this I find utterly abhorrent.
I don't think it's because I don't speak Welsh that these bilingual forms should stop .
I think they should stop because it's a waste of money and box ticking .
You have no idea how many people use the language
It's just ignorance on your part
You don't speak the language so you won't come into contact with it and think it's not worthwhile.
I hear it spoken nearly every day
I use it in my job with welsh speakers
My daughter used to work in Cardiff and was the designated welsh speaker with customers who wanted to deal in the language.
She would have welsh speakers coming up to hear all the time and was as natural as speaking in English
You say you would prefer to go walking or fishing which is mainly things you do on your own so it's not surprising you don't come across it.
The thing is that I can bump into more welsh speakers than anglers whenever I go out but I don't think that lakes and fisheries should be closed down because I don't fish and nobody i now does either.
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:23
End of argument from me. No point carrying on with it. You have an attitude towards this I find utterly abhorrent.
OK 👌
SLUDGE FACTORY
28-03-22, 22:27
You have no idea how many people use the language
It's just ignorance on your part
You don't speak the language so you won't come into contact with it and think it's not worthwhile.
I hear it spoken nearly every day
I use it in my job with welsh speakers
My daughter used to work in Cardiff and was the designated welsh speaker with customers who wanted to deal in the language.
She would have welsh speakers coming up to hear all the time and was as natural as speaking in English
You say you would prefer to go walking or fishing which is mainly things you do on your own so it's not surprising you don't come across it.
The thing is that I can bump into more welsh speakers than anglers whenever I go out but I don't think that lakes and fisheries should be closed down because I don't fish and nobody i now does either.
Fishing , Football , Curry
Just interests
Public money generally isn't spent on that
But S4C which has dreadful viewing figures is subsidised and council forms are sent out to people in Welsh and English and its utterly pointless . And a waste of money .
Fishing , Football , Curry
Just interests
Public money generally isn't spent on that
But S4C which has dreadful viewing figures is subsidised and council forms are sent out to people in Welsh and English and its utterly pointless . And a waste of money .
Public money is spent on football and fishing.
Probably more than on these forms you keep banging on about.
Council tax forms ate once a year.
Maintaing parks and sporting areas are all year round.
Fishing is expensive to maintain and keep the rivers and lakes unpolluted.
Wash DC Blue
28-03-22, 22:42
The Welsh Language is massively important to Wales.
I went to Mr Urdd at Llangranog, learned to the best of my shitty ability taught by Mr Robert's at a school in Newport.
Even went to see the Cardiff Tigers (I think) American Football team at Ninian Park followed by Cefyl Pren at The Newport Centre that evening.
On the flip side, been ****ed off by the staff at Ifor Bach for rudimentary knowledge of the Welsh Language which just made me resentful rather than understanding.
Super Furry Animals have been amazing at building personal bridges for me.
I hope that the language flurries and that at some point in time the majority of people in Wales will have a better command of the language than me.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 01:47
So, just for the record, you think it's a waste of money for Welsh speakers to be able to communicate in Welsh for government/local authority services in predominantly non Welsh speaking areas? Would you also get rid of Welsh language council phone lines in councils where Welsh speakers are in a minority?
Sounds like something Thatcher would do.. bloody Tories.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 01:49
I am not saying that though
I am saying in predominantly English speaking areas of South Wales drop all the silly box ticking nonsense
There are loads of ways Welsh speaking people can use the language as a living language
Try finding a Welsh speaking member of staff to deal with your council tax problem in say Barry
Good luck with that
So basically **** the Welsh speaking people in these areas then because they are such a minority its pointless. Sounds like a tory attitude to things.
UNDERHILL1927
29-03-22, 05:33
Having a mare here Sludge.
The ridiculous nature of the situation was summed up for me yesterday when for a reason to get on a Welsh language course I wrote, “I’m embarrassed that I don’t know my mother tongue “. I don’t know the language of the country that I’ve lived in for 42 years, how mental is that?
As for getting rid of Welsh literature etc, that’s only going to marginalise Welsh speakers even more and make the language less visible.
The Lone Gunman
29-03-22, 06:12
Yeah let's have GSTQ instead unless you have a better suggestion. which I doubt.
What a strange thing to say. You sound a bit confused. You know that Yma O Hyd isn't our national anthem, right?
As for me coming up with 'a better suggestion', the fact is I couldn't care less what Wales fans sing before international matches. Whatever makes them happy is fine is fine by me. I think Yma O Hyd is utter garbage, but if other people like it then so be it.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 07:11
The Welsh Language is massively important to Wales.
I went to Mr Urdd at Llangranog, learned to the best of my shitty ability taught by Mr Robert's at a school in Newport.
Even went to see the Cardiff Tigers (I think) American Football team at Ninian Park followed by Cefyl Pren at The Newport Centre that evening.
On the flip side, been ****ed off by the staff at Ifor Bach for rudimentary knowledge of the Welsh Language which just made me resentful rather than understanding.
Super Furry Animals have been amazing at building personal bridges for me.
I hope that the language flurries and that at some point in time the majority of people in Wales will have a better command of the language than me.
I totally agree with you that the Welsh language is very important . But it's made stronger by helping people to speak welsh . These forms don't do that .
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 07:14
Public money is spent on football and fishing.
Probably more than on these forms you keep banging on about.
Council tax forms ate once a year.
Maintaing parks and sporting areas are all year round.
Fishing is expensive to maintain and keep the rivers and lakes unpolluted.
I pay for fishing through my rod licence and fishing permit . That money goes towards keeping the rivers and lakes clean . It's completely irrelevant .
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 07:17
So basically **** the Welsh speaking people in these areas then because they are such a minority its pointless. Sounds like a tory attitude to things.
No it was a Labour government that gave Wales devolution and massively invested in the Welsh language and I voted for that .
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 07:35
Having a mare here Sludge.
The ridiculous nature of the situation was summed up for me yesterday when for a reason to get on a Welsh language course I wrote, “I’m embarrassed that I don’t know my mother tongue “. I don’t know the language of the country that I’ve lived in for 42 years, how mental is that?
As for getting rid of Welsh literature etc, that’s only going to marginalise Welsh speakers even more and make the language less visible.
I think you are being very precious . Since the Industrialisation of South Wales and the rapid growth of population English has become the dominant language . We know that 100 years ago the language was persecuted .
It's in a far better state these days thanks to the 1997 devolution and investment since then .
What people I think should be able to differentiate between is kids being beaten with a stick for speaking Welsh and the almost zealot like March towards Wales becoming a country where only 10 percent of a town like Bridgend speak welsh but the only way of getting a decent education is sending children to a Welsh school where it appears the use of the language drops out after school as the parents don't speak welsh .
Now clearly if the language for future generations can be encouraged by welsh schools and welsh education then it makes sense to analyse whether money is being spent on areas that matter .
I think that spending money on helping people to speak welsh is a good idea . I think spending money on bilingual services is a waste of money because very very few people in Wales who speak welsh as their first language are not able for the purposes of a form to understand English.
I think the pro welsh language lobby are completely over the top . Welsh is in a far better state these days and it's got nothing to do with bilingual council forms .
Well I don't think it's as clear cut as that
The vast majority of forms in Welsh from government agencies that arrive on the doorstep in South East Wales go in the recycling
In South West Wales it's almost certainly going to be that a fair amount are used as Welsh is the dominant language in Carmarthenshire etc
I think in an area where Welsh is spoken hugely as a living language Welsh speakers should be provided with Welsh forms
But what's the point of spending money on Welsh council forms where the language isn't used on a day to day basis
Apart from the pontcanna taffia District where in Cardiff are people conversing in Welsh on a level that justifies spending money on forms , signage etc ?
I just think it's daft and doesn't do anything to strengthen the language
Welsh will never die now , it will always be here as the song says , like the country but the way to keep it growing is by teaching people how to speak it in English speaking Wales in schools , night classes etc
We are not going to preserve Welsh by having council tax forms sent out in Welsh
It's just a waste of money that could be spent on teaching or promoting the language . Having a form come through your door in Welsh isn't going to do that .
I think the point you make that "Welsh will never die now" is completely incorrect.
without significant efforts to keep it going it could easily die out within a few generations.
it is held up as a model of how to maintain a minority language by many countries.
there are languages in China with tens of millions of speakers that you've never heard of, that are dying out rapidly because the Chinese government want mandarin to be the only language
I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .
Wow, I thought you were a socially conscious liberal, the mask has well and truly slipped :frown:
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 09:23
Wow, I thought you were a socially conscious liberal, the mask has well and truly slipped :frown:
Sludge facTORY
Been staring us in the face.
Sludge facTORY
Been staring us in the face.
Ha ha. Good spot.
I recall an incident reported a couple of years ago.
Two women of let's say foreign appearance, were chatting on a bus.
A man of far right views couldn't understand their language and took exception
and berated them saying something like
"you're in England now - you should be speaking English!"
One of them replied, in English,
Actually, we're in Wales and we are speaking Welsh - what's your problem?"
There wasn't a hole deep enough for him to crawl into.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 09:41
I recall an incident reported a couple of years ago.
Two women of let's say foreign appearance, were chatting on a bus.
A man of far right views couldn't understand their language and took exception
and berated them saying something like
"you're in England now - you should be speaking English!"
One of them replied, in English,
Actually, we're in Wales and we are speaking Welsh - what's your problem?"
There wasn't a hole deep enough for him to crawl into.
I'm not disputing if it happened or not, but doesn't this sound like one of them urban myths you read online?!
JamesWales
29-03-22, 09:42
In defence of Sludge...
And bearing in mind I haven't read everything here.
But it is possible to be critical of some pro-welsh language policies and that not mean you don't support the language. Same way you can be a christian and criticise some church policies. For example, the language needs to 'win around' people if it is to have popular support. Spending money on bilingual signage may not be the best way to do that. Sludge's comments are very common in Cardiff.
Sometimes less is more and 'shoving things down peoples throats' (not my words) isn't always the best thing to do.
Personally I have no issue at all with bilingual general information as it's cheaper than an opt out system and tends to lead to more concise communication (ie, you keep it to one side of paper, so the Welsh/English is reversible).
One thing I would change is the requirement for kids to study Welsh until 16. I think after 14 it should be optional, by which time you have gained an awareness of the cultural and linguistic elements of the language but you are unlikely to become fluent in it compared to kids at Welsh language schools and it does impact upon other subjects given there are only so many hours in the day. I'm a big believer in learning foreign languages (ich kann Deutsche sprechen...) and I don't want us to fall further behind on that.
Anecdotally I think that policy does build some resentment towards the language, including amongst young people 'made' to learn it.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 09:45
In defence of Sludge...
And bearing in mind I haven't read everything here.
But it is possible to be critical of some pro-welsh language policies and that not mean you don't support the language. For example, the language needs to 'win around' people if it is to have popular support. Spending money on bilingual signage may not be the best way to do that. Sludge's comments are very common in Cardiff.
Sometimes less is more and 'shoving things down peoples throats' (not my words) isn't always the best thing to do.
Personally I have no issue at all with bilingual general information as it's cheaper than an opt out system and tends to lead to more concise communication (ie, you keep it to one side of paper, so the Welsh/English is reversible).
One thing I would change is the requirement for kids to study Welsh until 16. I think after 14 it should be optional, by which time you have gained an awareness of the cultural and linguistic elements of the language but you are unlikely to become fluent in it compared to kids at Welsh language schools and it does impact upon other subjects given there are only so many hours in the day.
Anecdotally I think that policy does build some resentment towards the language, including amongst young people 'made' to learn it.
I had 1 hour of Welsh a week after 14
My daughter is 15 and gets the same one whole hour a week.
I'm not disputing if it happened or not, but doesn't this sound like one of them urban myths you read online?!
It was in the eggo or Western Mail
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 09:59
It was in the eggo or Western Mail
Yeah I've got teeny recollections of the story myself so wasn't trying to dispute it was reported somehow..just saying it sounds like one of them types of stories you hear repeated down the pub etc.
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 10:04
No
I have always thought that the provision of services should be determined by the demand for that service .
I don't see the point of sending out bilingual council forms when in some places hardly anyone speaks Welsh.
Are you of the same opinion about the incurred costs and the obvious waste of time in providing language platforms for say Somali, Arabic, Aramaic, perhaps even Ukranian on its way etc ?
Genuinely curious.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:09
Are you of the same opinion about the incurred costs and the obvious waste of time in providing language platforms for say Somali, Arabic, Aramaic, perhaps even Ukranian on its way etc ?
Genuinely curious.
The reason why in a city like cardiff that multi language information is provided because in many immigrant communities the population , especially amongst the elderly , speaks very little English.
In Cardiff is there a elderly population of Welsh speakers that cannot understand English and need these bilingual forms ?
I very much doubt it .
In defence of Sludge...
here he is again, defending the tories :hehe:
The reason why in a city like cardiff that multi language information is provided because in many immigrant communities the population , especially amongst the elderly , speaks very little English.
In Cardiff is there a elderly population of Welsh speakers that cannot understand English and need these bilingual forms ?
I very much doubt it .
I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?
JamesWales
29-03-22, 12:12
here he is again, defending the tories :hehe:
haha :hehe:
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:17
I think the point you make that "Welsh will never die now" is completely incorrect.
without significant efforts to keep it going it could easily die out within a few generations.
it is held up as a model of how to maintain a minority language by many countries.
there are languages in China with tens of millions of speakers that you've never heard of, that are dying out rapidly because the Chinese government want mandarin to be the only language
Do you think Cardiff County Council providing a call line in English and Welsh is a significant step in preserving the Welsh language ?
I don't
Spend the money on a Welsh language festival in Cardiff every summer for example
Who wants English , or Indeed Welsh to be the only language ?
That's clearly not what the critics of bilingual Council forms is about
Welsh is in a good state these days , better than I can remember . Do people think the council spending money on language classes for the many is a better use of resources ?
Or is anyone who suggests that a goose stepping anti Welsh nazi ?
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:20
I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?
I bet you most of them fill it in in English
My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .
It's box ticking
I bet you most of them fill it in in English
My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .
It's box ticking
Can't think why she left you with your open minded attitude to life?
I think there are around 35 k people in Cardiff who's first language is Welsh.
they can probably all manage to fill in a form in English, but why should they have to?
Never that many, less than 5% of the population isn’t it? Know quite a few parents who send their kids to Welsh primary but none of them speak any Welsh….
I bet you most of them fill it in in English
My ex missus was a raving Welsh nationalist , on the day of the vote for a Welsh parliament she pissed off into town shopping with her mother who was always slagging off the English and neither of them bothered to vote .
It's box ticking
This is such an unbelievably arrogant attitude to have, it's not box ticking if you prefer to fill it in in your first language. Who the hell do you think you are?
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 12:33
Can't think why she left you with your open minded attitude to life?
It's because he's a tory. He's let it slip in this thread.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 12:34
This is such an unbelievably arrogant attitude to have, it's not box ticking if you prefer to fill it in in your first language. Who the hell do you think you are?
Whoa now. You keep that violence in check sonny.
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 12:37
Never that many, less than 5% of the population isn’t it? Know quite a few parents who send their kids to Welsh primary but none of them speak any Welsh….
According to the last census 11.1% are fluent in Welsh.
I'd be interested to know the percentages of those that speak Somali, Arabic etc. so Sludge can support his case that providing a Welsh language platform is a waste of time and money when comparing the absolute need for the provision of other languages to support some communities within Cardiff.
The Lone Gunman
29-03-22, 12:38
I wonder if Dafydd Iwan regards any of the Welsh team as being a Dic Siôn Dafydd?
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:38
Can't think why she left you with your open minded attitude to life?
She didn't like English people so I left her
Precious .
Whoa now. You keep that violence in check sonny.
Don't make me get my girlfriend to slap you
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:41
This is such an unbelievably arrogant attitude to have, it's not box ticking if you prefer to fill it in in your first language. Who the hell do you think you are?
I am simply voicing an opinion that its daft . I am not advocating death to Welsh speakers .
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:42
It's because he's a tory. He's let it slip in this thread.
Her mother was a Welsh speaker
Moaned about the English
And voted tory
Never forget you're Welsh
Isn't it
I am simply voicing an opinion that its daft . I am not advocating death to Welsh speakers .
Why don't you just opt out of receiving a paper copy of your council tax bill and go online only. That'll save you receiving both versions.
Here's a bit of light reading for you about 'Bilingual Cardiff'. Sorry if you feel its a waste of time. I think the progress has been brilliant and long may it continue.
In spite of everyone and everything, we are still here.
https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/Your-Council/Strategies-plans-and-policies/Bilingual-Cardiff/Pages/default.aspx
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:47
According to the last census 11.1% are fluent in Welsh.
I'd be interested to know the percentages of those that speak Somali, Arabic etc. so Sludge can support his case that providing a Welsh language platform is a waste of time and money when comparing the absolute need for the provision of other languages to support some communities within Cardiff.
Do you think the elderly Welsh speaking community in Cardiff.....let's say cathedral Road .....has a very disadvantaged community of people who have a very poor command of English for use on official documents in similar number to those in South Cardiff from say the Yemeni community ?
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 12:51
Why don't you just opt out of receiving a paper copy of your council tax bill and go online only. That'll save you receiving both versions.
Here's a bit of light reading for you about 'Bilingual Cardiff'. Sorry if you feel its a waste of time. I think the progress has been brilliant and long may it continue.
In spite of everyone and everything, we are still here.
https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/Your-Council/Strategies-plans-and-policies/Bilingual-Cardiff/Pages/default.aspx
The increase in people speaking Welsh is largely down to kids being taught it in school , according to that .
That's fine as suggests that's the best way òf preserving the language .
What effect do you think having bilingual Council forms has on the strength of the language ?
The increase in people speaking Welsh is largely down to kids being taught it in school , according to that .
That's fine as suggests that's the best way òf preserving the language .
What effect do you think having bilingual Council forms has on the strength of the language ?
Cant think of any negatives, but I'll answer that with a question and ask what effect do you think not having bilingual forms will have on the strength of the language? Will adopting that position strengthen or weaken the language?
She didn't like English people so I left her
Precious .
That's what this is all about
Nothing to do with the language and all to do with your ex.
Let it go.
The increase in people speaking Welsh is largely down to kids being taught it in school , according to that .
That's fine as suggests that's the best way òf preserving the language .
What effect do you think having bilingual Council forms has on the strength of the language ?
So when these pupils get older how will they fill out the forms in Welsh if they are only in English?
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 14:14
Don't make me get my girlfriend to slap you
:hehe:
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 14:15
This board is ****ing nuts.
The lengths people will go to not to concede an argument :hehe:
William Treseder
29-03-22, 16:07
This board is ****ing nuts.
The lengths people will go to not to concede an argument :hehe:
What happens on here is, someone will start a thread on a topic. Soon lots of other posters read it, then naturally decide to comment on it, and give an opinion.
The hilarity starts when certain posters will go to any lengths to ‘prove’ their opinion is the one that is correct and matters 😂.
Wasnt there a poster on here a couple of months ago saying this song shouldn't be played at football?
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 16:28
Do you think the elderly Welsh speaking community in Cardiff.....let's say cathedral Road .....has a very disadvantaged community of people who have a very poor command of English for use on official documents in similar number to those in South Cardiff from say the Yemeni community ?
There's two tonka toys in your head currently and continuously crashing into each other if this is the basis of your opinion.
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 17:06
There's two tonka toys in your head currently and continuously crashing into each other if this is the basis of your opinion.
https://youtu.be/H3KpR6EyZX0
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 17:35
Wasnt there a poster on here a couple of months ago saying this song shouldn't be played at football?
Jimmy Cymru I’m guessing?
Think he was afraid of the song causing Welsh football supporters to start burning holiday homes on the way back to theirs after the game?
UNDERHILL1927
29-03-22, 18:18
Sludge facTORY
Been staring us in the face.
😂😂😂😂😂
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 18:55
😂😂😂😂😂
He had a good run, fair play.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 19:14
He had a good run, fair play.
I am still here , you on the other hand ....
You have had more comebacks than Mickey Thomas
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 19:15
There's two tonka toys in your head currently and continuously crashing into each other if this is the basis of your opinion.
Well what's your scribe then 🤔
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 19:26
I am still here , you on the other hand ....
You have had more comebacks than Mickey Thomas
As asocialist Labour member :thumbup:
Haven't you only just done a little comeback of your own after spending time away? Wouldn't you now being back also be "a comeback" ? Or ain't that in your rules.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 19:35
As asocialist Labour member :thumbup:
Haven't you only just done a little comeback of your own after spending time away? Wouldn't you now being back also be "a comeback" ? Or ain't that in your rules.
I have no idea what you are talking about
Are Wales winning ?
I am still here , you on the other hand ....
You have had more comebacks than Mickey Thomas
I am still here - Sounds like a good song title :hehe:
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 19:51
I have no idea what you are talking about
Are Wales winning ?
You do :hehe:
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 19:52
I am still here - Sounds like a good song title :hehe:
If only there were a Welsh version
The WFA could send it out to us all in English.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-03-22, 19:54
You do :hehe:
I honestly have no idea if Wales are winning or not
dembethewarrior
29-03-22, 19:56
I honestly have no idea if Wales are winning or not
That's how you're chosing to play it is it :hehe:
How was your little stint away, another comeback notched for you. More notches than your bedpost.
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 20:00
I have no idea what you are talking about
Are Wales winning ?
You have no idea what anyone is talking about at anytime.
The mumblings of your mind do not allow it.
Jordi Culé
29-03-22, 20:02
Well what's your scribe then ��
A bag of glue.
Organ Morgan.
29-03-22, 20:09
Sludge facTORY
Been staring us in the face.
For years I've been exposing his real political beliefs rather than those of his alter ego who has a social conscience. He always posts here while wearing a Tory blue polkadot cravat which is incongruous with the grubby vest he has on.
The Chingford Skinhead, Norman 'on your bike' Tebbit, is among his heroes. He's so far gone that when Thatcher snuffed it he wore a black armband for weeks as a mark of respect.
He is this message board's quintessential rotter.
SLUDGE FACTORY
30-03-22, 04:41
That's how you're chosing to play it is it :hehe:
How was your little stint away, another comeback notched for you. More notches than your bedpost.
I was dealing with a family illness
She's back in the Princess Of Wales hospital Bridgend , waiting for a heart operation
Send her a card if you like ? 👍
If she becomes critical I will be off again . Life's like that , you have to prioritise your friends and family .
SLUDGE FACTORY
30-03-22, 04:42
A bag of glue.
Are you lot still on that ?
Not good
dembethewarrior
30-03-22, 07:13
I was dealing with a family illness
She's back in the Princess Of Wales hospital Bridgend , waiting for a heart operation
Send her a card if you like ? 👍
If she becomes critical I will be off again . Life's like that , you have to prioritise your friends and family .
And I also would have had reasons for my "gaps in posting" if you will.
I remember prioritising my daughter over cardiff city, remember how you reacted to that:hehe:
SLUDGE FACTORY
30-03-22, 08:03
And I also would have had reasons for my "gaps in posting" if you will.
I remember prioritising my daughter over cardiff city, remember how you reacted to that:hehe:
Not quite the same though is it ?
As far as I know your daughter wasn't seriously ill and isn't. You simply used that as an excuse .
You said you didnt bother watching cardiff city ......but still came on here I might add ....because your daughter didn't like the long ball game
I think that's a bit of a cop out really but there you go
I am off into princess of Wales this afternoon , the valve into her heart is blocked , the artery is like a balloon and they are trying to get her stable . If they get her stable they might operate but given her age that's risky .
If I am absent from here for a while then please be assured its because my mother is seriously ill , I am not bored or anything .
Not quite the same though is it ?
As far as I know your daughter wasn't seriously ill and isn't. You simply used that as an excuse .
You said you didnt bother watching cardiff city ......but still came on here I might add ....because your daughter didn't like the long ball game
I think that's a bit of a cop out really but there you go
I am off into princess of Wales this afternoon , the valve into her heart is blocked , the artery is like a balloon and they are trying to get her stable . If they get her stable they might operate but given her age that's risky .
If I am absent from here for a while then please be assured its because my mother is seriously ill , I am not bored or anything .
All the best to your mother Sludge, hope it works out ok
Not quite the same though is it ?
As far as I know your daughter wasn't seriously ill and isn't. You simply used that as an excuse .
You said you didnt bother watching cardiff city ......but still came on here I might add ....because your daughter didn't like the long ball game
I think that's a bit of a cop out really but there you go
I am off into princess of Wales this afternoon , the valve into her heart is blocked , the artery is like a balloon and they are trying to get her stable . If they get her stable they might operate but given her age that's risky .
If I am absent from here for a while then please be assured its because my mother is seriously ill , I am not bored or anything .
all the best
Hope things work out for the best Sludge
I don't think there's anything disgraceful about stating that spending money on bilingual Council forms that in many places are simply thrown in the bin is daft
I would spend the money on night classes to help people speak Welsh
Spending money on council tax forms in Welsh in Splott is ridiculous
is that because people of Splott cannot read or because there are no Welsh speakers in Splott?
They have been given that right now but I think it's daft
There's 200 people in my street
3 houses are Welsh speaking
They get council tax forms in Welsh and English, most people in the street don't speak welsh and can't understand the forms , they are bilingual and can understand English ....it just seems a waste of money when it's just a bloody form
you know everyone on your street? Is this Ramsey Street?
and what about Welsh learners in the other 197 houses who'd like to have a go at their written Welsh?
Fishing , Football , Curry
Just interests
Public money generally isn't spent on that
But S4C which has dreadful viewing figures is subsidised and council forms are sent out to people in Welsh and English and its utterly pointless . And a waste of money .
public money is spent on things that matter to the majority. Most Welsh people who don't speak the language still want it to thrive.
I totally agree with you that the Welsh language is very important . But it's made stronger by helping people to speak welsh . These forms don't do that .
how do learners practice their written Welsh?
dembethewarrior
30-03-22, 10:28
Not quite the same though is it ?
As far as I know your daughter wasn't seriously ill and isn't. You simply used that as an excuse .
You said you didnt bother watching cardiff city ......but still came on here I might add ....because your daughter didn't like the long ball game
I think that's a bit of a cop out really but there you go
I am off into princess of Wales this afternoon , the valve into her heart is blocked , the artery is like a balloon and they are trying to get her stable . If they get her stable they might operate but given her age that's risky .
If I am absent from here for a while then please be assured its because my mother is seriously ill , I am not bored or anything .
You may be happy putting your life on here, and that's fine, if you.lime the support some.randomers offer you. I personally don't.
Life is hard for us all, storp trying to make me feel bad, because I honestly don't, life's a journey.for us all we.all go through it pal.you ain't the only one.
Hope you mother is well, but you don't half play for the sympathy vote on here
I'll get hammered for that I suppose, hey ho.
JamesWales
30-03-22, 10:41
Everyone should just be a bit more open minded about it; Sludge about the welsh language and what it means to people, and others about Sludge's opinions, which as a tax payer he is totally entitled to have, as he may have other priorities. Lots will agree with both sides.
Look after yourselves, aaaaaaaaaand each other.
Everyone should just be a bit more open minded about it; Sludge about the welsh language and what it means to people, and others about Sludge's opinions, which as a tax payer he is totally entitled to have, as he may have other priorities. Lots will agree with both sides.
Look after yourselves, aaaaaaaaaand each other.
Kids learn Welsh in school, that enough really isn’t it….kids pick up stuff pretty quick whether they will ever need to use it is another thing
Wash DC Blue
30-03-22, 17:53
Kids learn Welsh in school, that enough really isn’t it….kids pick up stuff pretty quick whether they will ever need to use it is another thing
I saw My 7 year old Niece yesterday and she was counting in Welsh and saying little sentences.
Cute as a button to me she is.
It's just nice to see and hear.
splott parker
30-03-22, 18:09
I saw My 7 year old Niece yesterday and she was counting in Welsh and saying little sentences.
Cute as a button to me she is.
It's just nice to see and hear.
In the words of the song are you ‘still here’ ? If so, when d’you go back? Have you seen a huge difference or not a lot of change?
Wash DC Blue
30-03-22, 18:14
In the words of the song are you ‘still here’ ? If so, when d’you go back? Have you seen a huge difference or not a lot of change?
Fly back tomorrow Mate.
Biggest change I noticed in Cardiff was the BBC building where the bus station was...
Newport is still its rough around the edges...yet charming self :) albeit with more pubs and shops closing down.
Lots of coffee shops and hotels though.
Been a nice trip and hope to get back in June or for the final.
splott parker
30-03-22, 18:29
Y
Fly back tomorrow Mate.
Biggest change I noticed in Cardiff was the BBC building where the bus station was...
Newport is still its rough around the edges...yet charming self :) albeit with more pubs and shops closing down.
Lots of coffee shops and hotels though
Been a nice trip and hope to get back in June or for the final.
Shame you couldn’t hang on for the Swansea game. Safe trip:thumbup:
Swiss Peter
30-03-22, 20:17
Thought it was good at the time the other night, but the song comes across to me as the sort of anthemic crowd-stirrer that I normally really don't like very much.
Also, It doesn't worry me, but I'm surprised the song and singer's wider context (the 'Yes'/PC connection) isn't discussed more.
Thought it was good at the time the other night, but the song comes across to me as the sort of anthemic crowd-stirrer that I normally really don't like very much.
Also, It doesn't worry me, but I'm surprised the song and singer's wider context (the 'Yes'/PC connection) isn't discussed more.
I had a Welsh-speaking girlfriend at the time it came out. "We're still here despite Maggie"? Ticks all the boxes for me.
Swiss Peter
30-03-22, 20:32
I had a Welsh-speaking girlfriend at the time it came out. "We're still here despite Maggie"? Ticks all the boxes for me.
Well, me too. Just surprised - given the 'broad church' that we have on here - that we don't hear a counter view.
Eric the Half a Bee
30-03-22, 20:38
Well, me too. Just surprised - given the 'broad church' that we have on here - that we don't hear a counter view.
It has been done.
True story. I used to conduct a male voice choir in the valleys and I got them to learn Yma O Hyd. Other male voice choirs were singing it successfully with little fuss. Unfortunately, the choir I was with had quite a strong older right wing element. One refused to sing about Maggie as she was his hero. One English guy refused to sing it as he (wrongly) believed it was an anti-English song. A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
On the flip side, another choir I am currently with sing it regularly and have changed Maggie to Boris.
It has been done.
True story. I used to conduct a male voice choir in the valleys and I got them to learn Yma O Hyd. Other male voice choirs were singing it successfully with little fuss. Unfortunately, the choir I was with had quite a strong older right wing element. One refused to sing about Maggie as she was his hero. One English guy refused to sing it as he (wrongly) believed it was an anti-English song. A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
On the flip side, another choir I am currently with sing it regularly and have changed Maggie to Boris.
:thumbup:
Swiss Peter
30-03-22, 20:55
It has been done.
True story. I used to conduct a male voice choir in the valleys and I got them to learn Yma O Hyd. Other male voice choirs were singing it successfully with little fuss. Unfortunately, the choir I was with had quite a strong older right wing element. One refused to sing about Maggie as she was his hero. One English guy refused to sing it as he (wrongly) believed it was an anti-English song. A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
On the flip side, another choir I am currently with sing it regularly and have changed Maggie to Boris.
Yeah, I thought it probably had! Thanks, Eric.
Swiss Peter
30-03-22, 21:02
It has been done.
True story. I used to conduct a male voice choir in the valleys and I got them to learn Yma O Hyd. Other male voice choirs were singing it successfully with little fuss. Unfortunately, the choir I was with had quite a strong older right wing element. One refused to sing about Maggie as she was his hero. One English guy refused to sing it as he (wrongly) believed it was an anti-English song. A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
On the flip side, another choir I am currently with sing it regularly and have changed Maggie to Boris.
Sorry, just read that again. Is the singer (and the song) not linked heavily with pro-independence then? Genuine question. Some stuff I was reading the other day suggested otherwise.
The Lone Gunman
30-03-22, 21:11
A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
Considering it was penned by a former president of Plaid Cymru who has a conviction for defacing English language road signs, I assumed it was a pro-independence song of some sort. But to be honest it's difficult to work out what the lyrics are really supposed to mean. Maybe something gets lost in translation, but a fair percentage of it reads like gibberish to me.
It has been done.
True story. I used to conduct a male voice choir in the valleys and I got them to learn Yma O Hyd. Other male voice choirs were singing it successfully with little fuss. Unfortunately, the choir I was with had quite a strong older right wing element. One refused to sing about Maggie as she was his hero. One English guy refused to sing it as he (wrongly) believed it was an anti-English song. A couple of others thought (wrongly) that it is a pro-independence song and thought we shouldn't sing it.
On the flip side, another choir I am currently with sing it regularly and have changed Maggie to Boris.
You should have found another choir.
Eric the Half a Bee
30-03-22, 22:09
You should have found another choir.
I did.
Eric the Half a Bee
30-03-22, 22:10
Considering it was penned by a former president of Plaid Cymru who has a conviction for defacing English language road signs, I assumed it was a pro-independence song of some sort. But to be honest it's difficult to work out what the lyrics are really supposed to mean. Maybe something gets lost in translation, but a fair percentage of it reads like gibberish to me.
And that's the point. It's not difficult to work out what the lyrics mean.
Wash DC Blue
30-03-22, 22:34
Y
Shame you couldn’t hang on for the Swansea game. Safe trip:thumbup:
Thank You SP.
splott parker
31-03-22, 05:40
Considering it was penned by a former president of Plaid Cymru who has a conviction for defacing English language road signs, I assumed it was a pro-independence song of some sort. But to be honest it's difficult to work out what the lyrics are really supposed to mean. Maybe something gets lost in translation, but a fair percentage of it reads like gibberish to me.
A stirring song, no doubt but it does seem like it was written by a 321 script writer.
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 07:28
And that's the point. It's not difficult to work out what the lyrics mean.
Well it's got me. I'm not being facetious, I genuinely don't know what the lyrics are supposed to mean.
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 07:52
Well it's got me. I'm not being facetious, I genuinely don't know what the lyrics are supposed to mean.
Despite the best endeavours of others like Thatcher, the country established by Macsen, the Welsh Roman Emperor 1600 years ago is still here. Give or take a bit of poetic licence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POv-3yIPSWc
If only songs were this simple, like in the old days :hehe:
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:02
Despite the best endeavours of others like Thatcher, the country established by Macsen, the Welsh Roman Emperor 1600 years ago is still here. Give or take a bit of poetic licence.
And some inclement weather, apparently.
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 08:03
And some inclement weather, apparently.
Doh, it wouldn't be Wales otherwise!
JamesWales
31-03-22, 08:08
Sorry, just read that again. Is the singer (and the song) not linked heavily with pro-independence then? Genuine question. Some stuff I was reading the other day suggested otherwise.
This was talked about in another thread where I said I liked the song but suggested the FAW may not want to get too close on what is quite a partisan song politically in a climate in Wales that may get more political in coming years with the independence debate.
My interpretation is that it's very much about the Welsh language but the singer is very much about the Welsh language and independence so I still think the FAW should not get overly cosy.
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:26
If the translation I've read is accurate, one section of the song goes as follows:
"Let the tears of the faint-hearted flow and the servile lick the floor."
So who does Dafydd Iwan regard as the faint-hearted and the servile?
That's followed with:
"Despite the blackness around us, we are ready for the breaking of the dawn!"
What is the blackness around us? And what does the line about the breaking of the dawn signify?
Another line says:
"Despite every Dic Siôn Dafydd...."
What does the song's author mean by that?
Another line says:
"Despite every Dic Siôn Dafydd...."
What does the song's author mean by that?
they are a character in a poem of the Welsh satirical poet Jac Glan-y-gors
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 08:33
What does the song's author mean by that?
We skipped the light fandango
Turned cartwheels 'cross the floor
I was feeling kinda seasick
The crowd called out for more
The room was humming harder
As the ceiling flew away
When we called out for another drink
The waiter brought a tray
And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face, at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale
She said "there is no reason"
And the truth is plain to see
But I wandered through my playing cards
Would not let her be
One of sixteen vestal virgins
Who were leaving for the coast
And although my eyes were open
They might have just as well've been closed
And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face, at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale
And so it was that later
Swiss Peter
31-03-22, 08:37
This was talked about in another thread where I said I liked the song but suggested the FAW may not want to get too close on what is quite a partisan song politically in a climate in Wales that may get more political in coming years with the independence debate.
My interpretation is that it's very much about the Welsh language but the singer is very much about the Welsh language and independence so I still think the FAW should not get overly cosy.
Thanks. I missed the other thread. I can see where you are coming from with this. It is what prompted my question really.
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:38
What does the song's author mean by that?
Can't say I recall A Whiter Shade of Pale being sung at Welsh internationals, but I've missed a fair few in recent years.
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:40
they are a character in a poem of the Welsh satirical poet Jac Glan-y-gors
I'm aware of that. But who is the author of Yma O Hyd referring to? Who are the 'Dic Sion Dafydds' as far as he and those who champion this song concerned? What is the context?
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 08:42
Can't say I recall A Whiter Shade of Pale being sung at Welsh internationals, but I've missed a fair few in recent years.
I thought you were struggling with the concept of lyrical interpretation not location. My mistake.
Jesus Christ, overthinking this a bit aren't we some of you? 30000 Welsh people sing a song together, build up a brilliant atmosphere and have a great time, let's find some negatives
JamesWales
31-03-22, 08:44
Can't say I recall A Whiter Shade of Pale being sung at Welsh internationals, but I've missed a fair few in recent years.
A whiter shade of Bale would sound quite stirring coming from the Canton end in full voice.
JamesWales
31-03-22, 08:45
Jesus Christ, overthinking this a bit aren't we some of you? 30000 Welsh people sing a song together, build up a brilliant atmosphere and have a great time, let's find some negatives
Don't bring Jesus into it. He has enough going on with his first Christmas world cup coming up
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 08:46
Don't bring Jesus into it. He has enough going on with his first Christmas world cup coming up
Truthpaste in 3.2.1
I'm aware of that. But who is the author of Yma O Hyd referring to? Who are the 'Dic Sion Dafydds' as far as he and those who champion this song concerned? What is the context?
Its from a music sheet site, but this is what they have said
Dic Siôn Dafydd – (literal translation: “Richard son of John son of David” - is a term of abuse applied to a Welshman who denies his native language and speaks only English. In other words, a traitor.
The term originates from a one Dic Siôn Dafydd who left Wales to became a draper in London. His pomposity led him to claim that he had forgotten how to speak Welsh, and on a visit to his mother in Wales who spoke only Welsh he insisted on speaking English.
Its from a music sheet site, but this is what they have said
Dic Siôn Dafydd – (literal translation: “Richard son of John son of David” - is a term of abuse applied to a Welshman who denies his native language and speaks only English. In other words, a traitor.
The term originates from a one Dic Siôn Dafydd who left Wales to became a draper in London. His pomposity led him to claim that he had forgotten how to speak Welsh, and on a visit to his mother in Wales who spoke only Welsh he insisted on speaking English.
Oh God you've just added another 5 pages to this thread :hehe:
Oh God you've just added another 5 pages to this thread :hehe:
Im here all day :getscoat:
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:50
Jesus Christ, overthinking this a bit aren't we some of you?
Bit touchy, aren't you?
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:51
Oh God you've just added another 5 pages to this thread
Are you a Welsh speaker of a servile, floor-licking Dic Sion Dafydd?
Bit touchy, aren't you?
Says the one demanding explanations of lyrics a week after the game :hehe:
Just let people enjoy things, it's fine
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 08:57
Says the one demanding explanations of lyrics a week after the game
It's merely a discussion. If you don't like it, find yourself another thread.
It's merely a discussion. If you don't like it, find yourself another thread.
Oh I like it just fine, my contribution to the discussion is that you're overthinking it and should let people enjoy things. If you don't like that, find yourself another thread
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 09:03
Oh I like it just fine....
Stop whinging, then.
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-03-22, 09:07
Does anyone remember that druid bloke Dr Robyn Lewis who was prominent in the Welsh language Society alongside Ffred Ffrancis ?
He used to write into the western mail and described anyone living in Wales who didn't speak welsh as a monoglot and a colonialist
Daft old sod , probably dead now
He hated the English so much he studied at university college London, England
Mind you we do have the people who say they walk into pubs and shops in Welsh speaking areas and THEY .....start speaking in Welsh
I have never experienced that , I think it's a myth and quite frankly if you go into a pub in a Welsh speaking area and the locals are speaking Welsh then it seems perfectly normal I would have thought .
Used to go on holiday when I was younger to Newquay West Wales with my mate and his family who were from Birmingham but moved down here when my mate was a kid
His old man loved Wales, soon became a regular at Cardiff City
It's only a line on a map really
splott parker
31-03-22, 09:12
A whiter shade of Bale would sound quite stirring coming from the Canton end in full voice.
A Paler Shade of White wouldn’t go amiss about ten to five on Saturday afternoon.
We're in the middle of something here Sludge, bit rude to interrupt tbh
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-03-22, 09:17
We're in the middle of something here Sludge, bit rude to interrupt tbh
What's happening , I am on heavy duty painkillers at the moment and totally off my face
splott parker
31-03-22, 09:19
We're in the middle of something here Sludge, bit rude to interrupt tbh
Don’t talk to Sludge ap Factory like that:-)
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 09:21
Does anyone remember that druid bloke Dr Robyn Lewis who was prominent in the Welsh language Society alongside Ffred Ffrancis ?
He used to write into the western mail and described anyone living in Wales who didn't speak welsh as a monoglot and a colonialist
Daft old sod , probably dead now
He hated the English so much he studied at university college London, England
Mind you we do have the people who say they walk into pubs and shops in Welsh speaking areas and THEY .....start speaking in Welsh
I have never experienced that , I think it's a myth and quite frankly if you go into a pub in a Welsh speaking area and the locals are speaking Welsh then it seems perfectly normal I would have thought .
Used to go on holiday when I was younger to Newquay West Wales with my mate and his family who were from Birmingham but moved down here when my mate was a kid
His old man loved Wales, soon became a regular at Cardiff City
It's only a line on a map really
Enjoy your monologues Sludge but for some reason this came to mind!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1035805923833524224
If the translation I've read is accurate, one section of the song goes as follows:
"Let the tears of the faint-hearted flow and the servile lick the floor."
So who does Dafydd Iwan regard as the faint-hearted and the servile?
That's followed with:
"Despite the blackness around us, we are ready for the breaking of the dawn!"
What is the blackness around us? And what does the line about the breaking of the dawn signify?
Another line says:
"Despite every Dic Siôn Dafydd...."
What does the song's author mean by that?
my understanding is the faint hearted and servile are people who welcome English "oppression"
the blackness around us would be English "oppression" or the fact that Wales barely exists as a nation these days
the breaking of the dawn would be being ready for when Wales rises again as a strong independent nation
DIC Sion dafydd was a character in a poem who was Welsh but ashamed of his welshness, and tried to hide it, even to the point of only speaking in English to his own mother who only spoke Welsh. sort of a Welsh version of an Uncle Tom kind of character.
Does anyone remember that druid bloke Dr Robyn Lewis who was prominent in the Welsh language Society alongside Ffred Ffrancis ?
He used to write into the western mail and described anyone living in Wales who didn't speak welsh as a monoglot and a colonialist
Daft old sod , probably dead now
He hated the English so much he studied at university college London, England
Mind you we do have the people who say they walk into pubs and shops in Welsh speaking areas and THEY .....start speaking in Welsh
I have never experienced that , I think it's a myth and quite frankly if you go into a pub in a Welsh speaking area and the locals are speaking Welsh then it seems perfectly normal I would have thought .
Used to go on holiday when I was younger to Newquay West Wales with my mate and his family who were from Birmingham but moved down here when my mate was a kid
His old man loved Wales, soon became a regular at Cardiff City
It's only a line on a map really
My ex (in the 70's) was from Bagshot, Surrey, as were most of her family - but her mum was from Pembrokeshire and spoke Welsh.
On a visit to the mum's family, they were in a pub down west, and were speaking English, as only the mum could speak Welsh.
Bar staff and locals were speaking Welsh and were not too complimentary about the little group of "Englanders".
So when they were leving, although they knew perfectly well where they were going, mum went up to the bar and loudly asked for directions - in Welsh! Queue chins dropping to the floor. :hehe:
JamesWales
31-03-22, 09:37
my understanding is the faint hearted and servile are people who welcome English "oppression"
the blackness around us would be English "oppression" or the fact that Wales barely exists as a nation these days
the breaking of the dawn would be being ready for when Wales rises again as a strong independent nation
DIC Sion dafydd was a character in a poem who was Welsh but ashamed of his welshness, and tried to hide it, even to the point of only speaking in English to his own mother who only spoke Welsh. sort of a Welsh version of an Uncle Tom kind of character.
I thought Dawn was some bird. The faint hearted were those living under the Welsh NHS, the blackness was coal
I thought Dawn was some bird. The faint hearted were those living under the Welsh NHS, the blackness was coal
Maybe the Welsh FA shouldn't get Dafydd Iwan back for the final, at this rate people will spend the entire first half debating the lyrics instead of watching the game :hehe:
I thought Dawn was some bird. The faint hearted were those living under the Welsh NHS, the blackness was coal
no you didn't
Citizen's Nephew
31-03-22, 10:03
Is this a safe place for me to say that it's possible to be pro-independent but hate tub-thumping nationalism?
StraightOuttaCanton
31-03-22, 10:08
Can't say I recall A Whiter Shade of Pale being sung at Welsh internationals, but I've missed a fair few in recent years.
Didn’t you like the shirts?
Citizen's Nephew
31-03-22, 10:11
no you didn't
:hehe:
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 10:12
Oh I like it just fine, my contribution to the discussion is that you're overthinking it and should let people enjoy things. If you don't like that, find yourself another thread
You haven't always got to be a smart arse you know.
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 10:16
Didn’t you like the shirts?
The shirts were fine. Didn’t think much of the songs, though. I preferred Can’t Take My Eyes Off You.
[QUOTE=The Lone Gunman;5288193]If the translation I've read is accurate, one section of the song goes as follows:
"Let the tears of the faint-hearted flow and the servile lick the floor."
So who does Dafydd Iwan regard as the faint-hearted and the servile?
Not so thinly veiled dig at DML if you ask me.
JamesWales
31-03-22, 10:51
Is this a safe place for me to say that it's possible to be pro-independent but hate tub-thumping nationalism?
I don't support independence but you are spot on. The two aren't the same.
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 10:55
I don't support independence but you are spot on. The two aren't the same.
You should know by now it's lines in the sand and full on war from one side or the other on ccmb.
You haven't always got to be a smart arse you know.
he started it!
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 11:25
he started it!
You're better than this Delm. Don't let them drag you down.
You're better than this Delm
I think we both know I'm not :hehe:
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-03-22, 11:30
I think Welsh is great
That single mum from Barry that won miss world ?
She spoke Welsh
Bloody marvellous
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 11:36
I think we both know I'm not :hehe:
It just sounded like a good response :hehe:
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 12:31
Tomorrow on The Big Debate
Men of Harlech
Does misappropriated propaganda for White Colonial misadventure have a place in 21st Century Wales?
Zombie Nation
Is this a dot-joining subliminal warning of the forthcoming Great Reset that you ignore at your peril?
The Lone Gunman
31-03-22, 12:52
Tomorrow on The Big Debate
Zombie Nation
Is this a dot-joining subliminal warning of the forthcoming Great Reset that you ignore at your peril?
Today on The Big Debate:
Why do people refer to the track ‘Kernkraft 400’ as being Zombie Nation when that is the name of the artist? And should ‘Hey Jude’ be renamed Beatles for the sake of consistency?
Shall we start singing Delilah instead? Nothing wrong with that is there 🙄
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 12:58
Today on The Big Debate:
Why do people refer to the track ‘Kernkraft 400’ as being Zombie Nation when that is the name of the artist? And should ‘Hey Jude’ be renamed Beatles for the sake of consistency?
See, you can do this tune stuff when you put your mind to it!
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-03-22, 13:07
Shall we start singing Delilah instead? Nothing wrong with that is there 🙄
Primal Concrete Sledge
Pantera
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 13:16
Today on The Big Debate:
Why do people refer to the track ‘Kernkraft 400’ as being Zombie Nation when that is the name of the artist? And should ‘Hey Jude’ be renamed Beatles for the sake of consistency?
Does hey jude repeatedly say beatles throughout the song?
Citizen's Nephew
31-03-22, 16:20
Tomorrow on The Big Debate
Men of Harlech
Does misappropriated propaganda for White Colonial misadventure have a place in 21st Century Wales?
Zombie Nation
Is this a dot-joining subliminal warning of the forthcoming Great Reset that you ignore at your peril?
This Is Wales
Is this reductionism and is the use of Anglicised place names an act of subconscious fealty?
A Quiet Monkfish
31-03-22, 16:38
I'll sing the national anthem, but for me all this poetry, hymn-like singing, tears, dreary folk tales of Welsh of old, myths, anti-English sentiments, it's all a bit dull and depressing. Much prefer proper 'footy' singing..
I'll sing the national anthem, but for me all this poetry, hymn-like singing, tears, dreary folk tales of Welsh of old, myths, anti-English sentiments, it's all a bit dull and depressing. Much prefer proper 'footy' singing..
I get your point but give me a spirited full house singalong to Yma o Hyd every day of the week over Dun Dun Dun Dun *insert player name*
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 16:51
I get your point but give me a spirited full house singalong to Yma o Hyd every day of the week over Dun Dun Dun Dun *insert player name*
*insert player name*
Hope they have a Welsh grandparent!
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 17:04
I'll sing the national anthem, but for me all this poetry, hymn-like singing, tears, dreary folk tales of Welsh of old, myths, anti-English sentiments, it's all a bit dull and depressing. Much prefer proper 'footy' singing..
I'd have said the same, but after listening to the atmosphere while it's sang you have to admit it works.
Like dunking toast in your tea. You wouldn't believe it before it happened.
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 17:22
I'd have said the same, but after listening to the atmosphere while it's sang you have to admit it works.
Like dunking toast in your tea. You wouldn't believe it before it happened.
That it works is the magic bit. Welsh speakers or not, people travelling from the furthest reaches of the nation and sworn rivals all excited to be in the Canton Stand or elsewhere belting out songs unique to the Welsh football team or they wouldn't dream of singing in any other ground or environment. Players "crocked" for months putting in stellar performances. I think anyone who was there last week who didn't love it has lost a bit of their soul.
Saying that...winning helps!
dembethewarrior
31-03-22, 19:18
That it works is the magic bit. Welsh speakers or not, people travelling from the furthest reaches of the nation and sworn rivals all excited to be in the Canton Stand or elsewhere belting out songs unique to the Welsh football team or they wouldn't dream of singing in any other ground or environment. Players "crocked" for months putting in stellar performances. I think anyone who was there last week who didn't love it has lost a bit of their soul.
Saying that...winning helps!
Last bit nailed it
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 20:06
This Is Wales
Is this reductionism and is the use of Anglicised place names an act of subconscious fealty?
Very Good!
Super Joniesta
Does a journeyman currently plying his trade in League 2 have similar ball distribution and retention skills to a Catalan midfield general at the height of his powers or is this further evidence of national hyperbole?
splott parker
31-03-22, 20:26
Very Good!
Super Joniesta
Does a journeyman currently plying his trade in League 2 have similar ball distribution and retention skills to a Catalan midfield general at the height of his powers or is this further evidence of national hyperbole?
Our little lot changed the lyric to ‘always’ rather than ‘never’ during his cameo the other evening. The song has to be an ironic pisstake.
That it works is the magic bit. Welsh speakers or not, people travelling from the furthest reaches of the nation and sworn rivals all excited to be in the Canton Stand or elsewhere belting out songs unique to the Welsh football team or they wouldn't dream of singing in any other ground or environment. Players "crocked" for months putting in stellar performances. I think anyone who was there last week who didn't love it has lost a bit of their soul.
Saying that...winning helps!
You only have to read the comments on YouTube to appreciate the impact it had on people and most of them were not in attendance. Anyone who was there and didn't love it is dead from the neck up.
cyril evans awaydays
31-03-22, 20:40
Our little lot changed the lyric to ‘always’ rather than ‘never’ during his cameo the other evening. The song has to be an ironic pisstake.
In fairness most teams have cult players like Jonny. I'm sure few Ulstermen really believe that international back lines cower in fear of Will Grigg's combustibility. He did us proud in Bordeaux against Slovakia and scored a worldie in Sofia from memory.
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