Personal pronouns in the workplace

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

[Whisperer]

SHE / IT

[UNDERHILL1927]

I’ll admit this is something I don’t know enough about. I supported an old member of one of my teams with their transition from male to female but still don’t know enough.

As with everything in life I think a lot of education and conversation needs to take place. Too many dismiss these feelings as a “fad”, I’m sure the same was said of gay people back in the day.

[RichardM]

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

We had a related discussion the other day. "They" just sounds wrong for an individual. If someone doesn't want to be a "he/him" or a "she/her" the only option left is "it".

[dembethewarrior]

I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care

But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.

Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:

[The Bloop]

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

The Church of England are considering the use of gender neutral terms for God. Maybe you could ask them what they'd do if someone didn't start the 'Lords' Prayer 'Our Parent, who art in Heaven...'?

[splott parker]

I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care

But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.

Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:

Please God tell me that ‘masturbates over robots’ was just something daft that you plucked out of thin air. :hehe:

[blue matt]

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

I have a " they " in my girls team, " they " have been a " they " for a while now, I used to struggle to remember ( I really did ), but after a while it becomes 2nd nature, as it happens as a " she ", " they " were one of my daughters best mates ( still are ), when we dont have a game I often bring them ( my daughter and her friend ) up to see city play

to be fair to " them ", who I explained to " them " that I would make mistakes and it wasnt me taking the pee, " they " said " I know Matt, you will try your best " " they " were very grown up about it and accepting that I would make mistakes, its was no drama when I did, still isnt, as occasionally I forget and get it wrong, " they " made the choice and are being very grown up about it when people do Make mistakes

when I call in the team, I have changed it from " in you come girls " to " come on in team " just to try and be respectful, as it happens " they " said to me " I still play for a girls team, so its ok to shout as you normally did " once again, showing a certain acceptance and maturity about the situation

When writing a match report, I found it tricky with them and they, but as you have seen above, I just use " they " ( for the person ) and they for the group, the Quotation mark has helped in that aspect

[dembethewarrior]

Please God tell me that ‘masturbates over robots’ was just something daft that you plucked out of thin air. :hehe:

Yes :hehe:

First thing that popped in my head

[UNDERHILL1927]

I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care

But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.

Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:

I agree with the getting it wrong. Unless someone is being blatantly antagonistic. The lady on my team was brilliant about it it be fair.

[dembethewarrior]

I agree with the getting it wrong. Unless someone is being blatantly antagonistic. The lady on my team was brilliant about it it be fair.

Exactly mate, it's all new and it'll take time :thumbup:

[Organ Morgan.]

Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?

I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

What a load of bollox!

[Des Parrot]

It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.

It’s similar with regards to racism, the perception is very different

[ToTaL ITK]

Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?

I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

What a load of bollox!

unless they are castrated? then there are no bollox

[blue matt]

Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?

I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

What a load of bollox!


without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina

[UNDERHILL1927]

without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina

Nothing snowflakey about empathy mate. The world needs more of it

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.

It’s similar with regards to racism, the perception is very different

I know that it is also being addressed linguistically in France, Germany and Spain.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?

I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

What a load of bollox!

Surely it's up to the person being addressed how they wish to be addressed? If everyone adhered to that simple bit of common decency we'd have no problems.

I'm sure that if I addressed you as a prejudiced old cock face you'd not be too happy, which is why I never would never refer to you as that.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina

Absolutely, and this is what I cannot understand. Some people get all annoyed at not being able to address someone as they want because that person doesn't want it. Weird.

[the other bob wilson]

What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.

Apart from that cousin in the Addams Family.

[dembethewarrior]

What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.

Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?

Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?

I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.

[Organ Morgan.]

Surely it's up to the person being addressed how they wish to be addressed? If everyone adhered to that simple bit of common decency we'd have no problems.

I'm sure that if I addressed you as a prejudiced old cock face you'd not be too happy, which is why I never would never refer to you as that.

You may be okay to go along with an obvious pretence rather than risk causing offence, but some of us retain a backbone.

[the other bob wilson]

Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?

Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?

I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.

I take your point, but I’ll always think calling a person it is either an insult, a joke or a mixture of both.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?

Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?

I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.

There is a case when 'they' has been traditionally and correctly used as a singular (and on lieu of "he or she" e.g. "Regarding the person who borrowed the spare laptop, would they please return it as soon as possible."

[Organ Morgan.]

I've referred to Neil Warnock here today as 'he' and as far as I know s/he self-identifies as a female, or gender neutral, and might be offended.

If it's impossible for a male to be a female and vice versa then it's every bit as impossible for a male or female to be a sausage roll or teapot.

[dembethewarrior]

There is a case when 'they' has been traditionally and correctly used as a singular (and on lieu of "he or she" e.g. "Regarding the person who borrowed the spare laptop, would they please bring it back to the office"

And them?

[dembethewarrior]

I take your point, but I’ll always think calling a person it is either an insult, a joke or a mixture of both.

I agree it sounds horrible

[UNDERHILL1927]

I've referred to Neil Warnock here today as 'he' and as far as I know s/he self-identifies as a female, or gender neutral, and might be offended.

If it's impossible for a male to be a female and vice versa then it's every bit as impossible for a male or female to be a sausage roll or teapot.

You know that’s bollox, stop being pedantic for the sake of it. Live and let live ffs

[Eric the Half a Bee]

You may be okay to go along with an obvious pretence rather than risk causing offence, but some of us retain a backbone.

So if someone asked you to refer to them in a certain way, you'd disrespect their wishes because you've got a backbone?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

And them?

'Them' is simply the accusative form of 'they:
"If they bring it back to the office, I'll update it and return it to them".

[Wales-Bales]

It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I have met some strange women on my travels

One lass called Edwina was definitely closer to an Edward

I did a runner

It takes all sorts

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I have met some strange women on my travels

One lass called Edwina was definitely closer to an Edward

I did a runner

It takes all sorts

That's after you'd paid "her" £50 and taken her back to your wankpad, where you had the surprise that was advertised but not expected.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The question if we are to take things to an extreme is thus

A bloke , called David , is in prison for sexual assault on a woman

He's given 10 years inside

Halfway through he changes into a woman through surgery , tablets and psychological therapy

He's well behaved as a prisoner and when he comes out he meets a man and they get married

He's no longer deemed a threat to women by the authorities

He's now known as Davina

He's introduced to people as Davina and although it's obvious she's still go plenty of male physical characteristics people accept he as a she

What would be your reaction if your wife or girlfriend was sexually assaulted when she was younger and told you she was in the ladies toilets on Saturday night and this davina came in and was coming on to her and she had to get the bouncers ?

Because I think respecting people and understanding that a man wanting to be a woman or a woman wanting to be a man has been part of human life since we evolved ....and I think being told dave is now davina and doing your best to try to remember that and treat davina as a woman is absolutely the right thing that decent people do

But what the christ are we going to do when men who have become women and want the rights of women suddenly don't play by the rules ?

[+ the native hipster]

non binary, but plays for a girls team so happy with female when it suits her

[dembethewarrior]

It needs to be accepted that people will have different opinions as well, arguing and calling someone names because they don't follow the same opinion as the group is a bit silly really.

[Canton Kev]

The question if we are to take things to an extreme is thus

A bloke , called David , is in prison for sexual assault on a woman

He's given 10 years inside

Halfway through he changes into a woman through surgery , tablets and psychological therapy

He's well behaved as a prisoner and when he comes out he meets a man and they get married

He's no longer deemed a threat to women by the authorities

He's now known as Davina

He's introduced to people as Davina and although it's obvious she's still go plenty of male physical characteristics people accept he as a she

What would be your reaction if your wife or girlfriend was sexually assaulted when she was younger and told you she was in the ladies toilets on Saturday night and this davina came in and was coming on to her and she had to get the bouncers ?

Because I think respecting people and understanding that a man wanting to be a woman or a woman wanting to be a man has been part of human life since we evolved ....and I think being told dave is now davina and doing your best to try to remember that and treat davina as a woman is absolutely the right thing that decent people do

But what the christ are we going to do when men who have become women and want the rights of women suddenly don't play by the rules ?

The same thing that happens now if a woman born as a woman doesn’t “play by the rules”. As you said, call the bouncer.

You think there’s never been a single incident of a woman coming onto another woman without consent?

[SuperBluebirds91]

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

Thanks for your honesty, very refreshing. I’d love to know more, ignorance isn’t bliss, education is bliss.

There’s a few in here using the usual whataboutery.

Black lives matter - all lives matter in nature.

Rather than judge people by the media and their ridiculous biases, I prefer to listen to real people like you, so thank you.

[blue matt]

non binary, but plays for a girls team so happy with female when it suits her

I guess this was a reply to my post

you could look at it that way

but

when " they " started playing football, " they " were a girl, and " they " are still physically a girl ( not taking any hormones ), Playing football is a massive plus for " them " in a rather mundane life, so to me, it really does no harm to anyone if " they " play football and it makes " them " happy while not identifing as a boy or girl, it really is no Drama

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

Thanks for your contribution and ignore those in this thread who aren't able to conduct themselves in an intelligent debate without descending to personal insults. Unfortunately, such people usually end up dominating thread and intelligent debate goes down the pan - but reading of your perspective is of interest to most thinking people on here, I would imagine.

[lardy]

Thanks for writing that, superbluebird. There will always be some who think their own narrow view of the world is the only one that exists and everyone else is simply wrong, such as on this thread, but most people are very open to reading first-hand accounts like yours.

[splott parker]

Perhaps the post of the year, as early as it is, thanks SuperBluebird, very enlightening :thumbup:

[North Cardiff Blue]

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

Interesting.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The same thing that happens now if a woman born as a woman doesn’t “play by the rules”. As you said, call the bouncer.

You think there’s never been a single incident of a woman coming onto another woman without consent?

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

[Maurice Swan]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

I think the bathroom issue is quite a big one

You ask for respect and understanding , I think anyone who abuses trans people is not worth a response

You are of course correct .....everyone needs to wee ....but I think the opinions of women who have raised the issue of being in a rest room , bathroom , showers needs to be considered

Some would not be bothered at all but a significant number would feel very uncomfortable

With regard to your journey through life I completely respect that and i wouldn't have any time for people who don't feel the same

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

I think it's refreshing that these things can be discussed Mo

Life is full of wonderful colours

[Maurice Swan]

I think it's refreshing that these things can be discussed Mo

Life is full of wonderful colours

On a FOOTBALL forum?

[blue matt]

On a FOOTBALL forum?

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

[JamesWales]

This has of course become an unfortunate political football that some people use as a tool in culture wars and where their perhaps legitimate concerns are ignored, but fundementally this is about being a decent, respectful and tolerant person.

As SuperBluebirds excellent post demonstrates, these are deeply personal issues for some people and it's not hard to refer to people how they wish, and that's not a gender or pronoun thing, it's basic courtesy. It is also really important that people feel there is arena in which they can discuss the wider political issues if they so wish, but that doesn't change respect for people, whatever you may think about the big issues.

As I will always preach, live and let live, humans are diverse and it's great that people can live and flourish however they wish.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

Why not just focus on the issue instead of childish arguments.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

There are other posts in this forum about skis, rugby, darts, Las Vegas and the automotive industry - and this thread clearly indicates what the subect matter is and that it even affects football teams, as confirmed by one contributor on here. You can always not read the thread if you want to avoid the subject matter, of course.

As for the foul language and descent into insults: I think those posts should be removed and not the thread itself.

[NYCBlue]

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

[Canton Kev]

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

It clearly isn't

A man convicted of rape against women who trans into a woman is clearly a risk to women

JK Rowling got dogs abuse for saying the same

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

Metal Will Never Die

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

What represents using the opposite?

[Canton Kev]

It clearly isn't

A man convicted of rape against women who trans into a woman is clearly a risk to women

JK Rowling got dogs abuse for saying the same

And a woman convicted of rape against another woman isn't?

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.



Good luck to you SB91, but while there are individuals who make unhelpful comments there is no "anti-trans campaign" as such. That's misinformation in itself.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

And a woman convicted of rape against another woman isn't?

Can a woman who cannot penetrate another woman with a penis she doesn't have be convicted of rape ?

If she can do you think your wife , partner , girlfriend on finding out a former man with a rape conviction , now trans into a woman , is at a party at the local social club and is using the same toilets as her ?

Would you be OK with that ? Would she , more importantly?

Respecting trans people in their day to day lives is very important but in some circumstances things have not been thought out

What about transvestites who in many cases have no feelings to transform ?

Are you and your partner OK with them going into the ladies room ?

A lot of women who have had bad experiences with men are not going to be happy with a transvestite , a drag queen , a trans person who still remains biologically a man etc being in the female toilets ....and that's before the issue of criminal sexual convictions are considered

Trans people must be respected but there are caveats that simply can't be brushed under the carpet

[Canton Kev]

On a FOOTBALL forum?

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

[UNDERHILL1927]

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

He’s upset because of something that happened about a month ago. Needs to get over it.

[Maurice Swan]

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

Why does a non-football thread ire you so much? And why did you open it in the first place?
There is every opportunity to read up about Warnock's new job and the perilous state of the club on other threads.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

[Canton Kev]

Can a woman who cannot penetrate another woman with a penis she doesn't have be convicted of rape ?


No because the UK legal definition of rape is completely outdated to the point where basically only men can be convicted of rape. In UK law rape is defined as penetration by a penis without the other person’s consent.

In my opinion I don’t see the difference between a man forcing his penis into someone, or a woman forcing her fingers or an object into someone. One would be considered rape and the other would be considered sexual assault.

I doubt my parter would be comfortable if she went into the bathroom and bumped into a MtoF who’d been convicted of rape. Likewise if she went in and bumped into a woman who’d been convicted of sexually assaulting someone.

Would you be comfortable going for a piss and knowing the man stood next to you was a convicted gay rapist? Or had been convicted of GBH? Etc. I wouldn’t be personally. But public toilets are just that, public.

In the latest census 0.5% of the respondents said they identified as a different gender to the one they were born with. Let’s say roughly 0.25% of the UK are MtoF.

You’ve created a fake, hyper specific scenario that is extremely unrealistic and in doing so are ignoring the fact women can sexually assault other women.

I don’t think the trans debate is that simple or clear cut but this example you’ve created is akin to saying people convicted of a knife crime 10 years ago shouldn’t be allowed into B+Q because they sell sharp blades.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

They can but if a trans person who was a man but now a woman is able to access women's toilets , changing rooms , showers etc than that clearly gives such a person with a propensity to assault women a clear opportunity

[Divine Wright]

I think it's comparable to foreign people calling you "English" when you are Welsh or Scottish.

It's jarring/offensive/factually incorrect.

I worked with someone who is non-binary. I TRIED to refer to them as "they-them-their" because I'm not a complete cnut.

I slipped up occasionally but did my best to adjust.


.........I guess it was the same for people who would use racial slurs or (casual) sexist language and had to watch their tongue when such things became unacceptable in civilised society.

I never use the word "****" or "Chinky" or refer to my partner as the "ball and chain" and I don't think it inhibits my ability to express myself adequately. Nowadays, I try to avoid things like "man-made" or "policeman" ....it's not that tough.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

Good choice about not having the energy, with some in here you’d be wasting your time.

Thank you for sharing your experience, truly enlightening

[Pedro de la Rosa]

They can but if a trans person who was a man but now a woman is able to access women's toilets , changing rooms , showers etc than that clearly gives such a person with a propensity to assault women a clear opportunity

I don’t think a rapist is that bothered that they shouldn’t be in the women’s changing rooms. A sign on the door isn’t going to change their mind.

[dembethewarrior]

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

There is a fella who goes to a pub in an area near to where I live. They won't give him the op. I'm not sure if I call the person a them in this instance as they've not had any work..it's all too confusing tbh..anyway, they go in the pub from time to time and even though they are addressed by their preferred female name and wear women's clothing they've been told that they must use the men's toilet. That's not discrimination, they've not had an op. This person chooses to ignore this request and uses the women's, the people in there seem ok with it which is why I suppose it goes on, but it only takes one "non regular" to go into this pub and use the toilet and freak out when they see a man there in women's clothing. I have a teenage daughter and I'd be absolutely raging if they used the toilet at the same time.

Some people may not see the difference, as the person identifies as a woman, but for me they've been turned down for the op, whatever the reason may be and will never get to the point where they are fully changed from a man to a woman, I mean what is the correct way to go about this? It's all good a couple of pisshead locals giving it the ok but should it happen?

If they'd had the op they'd have no problem in there, but I know of people who aren't comfortable with the situation (that don't use the pub at the same time)

It's not wanting to discriminate, but what would be the correct way to go about this issue? Because to the naked eye it's a man dressed up as a woman with toilet tissue in their bra, using the women's toilet. That makes me uncomfortable, given my daughters age, and she has been in there at the same time in the past.

[dembethewarrior]

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

You still banging on about your deleted thread. I've had loads get on with it..

[ToTaL ITK]

jesus christ! the ignorance in this thread is high.
Do any of you know any transgender people and you are aware that it's not only men that transition.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

No because the UK legal definition of rape is completely outdated to the point where basically only men can be convicted of rape. In UK law rape is defined as penetration by a penis without the other person’s consent.

In my opinion I don’t see the difference between a man forcing his penis into someone, or a woman forcing her fingers or an object into someone. One would be considered rape and the other would be considered sexual assault.

I doubt my parter would be comfortable if she went into the bathroom and bumped into a MtoF who’d been convicted of rape. Likewise if she went in and bumped into a woman who’d been convicted of sexually assaulting someone.

Would you be comfortable going for a piss and knowing the man stood next to you was a convicted gay rapist? Or had been convicted of GBH? Etc. I wouldn’t be personally. But public toilets are just that, public.

In the latest census 0.5% of the respondents said they identified as a different gender to the one they were born with. Let’s say roughly 0.25% of the UK are MtoF.

You’ve created a fake, hyper specific scenario that is extremely unrealistic and in doing so are ignoring the fact women can sexually assault other women.

I don’t think the trans debate is that simple or clear cut but this example you’ve created is akin to saying people convicted of a knife crime 10 years ago shouldn’t be allowed into B+Q because they sell sharp blades.

Good luck in defending that if it comes to court

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

jesus christ! the ignorance in this thread is high.
Do any of you know any transgender people and you are aware that it's not only men that transition.

Yes , woman in her late twenties who is called chloe

She's changed from a woman

Nice person

Don't know anyone who has ever given her hassle

Transphobia definitely exists and maybe always will but most people are open minded these days or alternatively couldn't care less

JK Rowling has made very salient arguments and discussions about these situations , she has recieved death threats and educated university lecturers have been hounded out of their jobs

[Whisperer]

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

Yeah same in the industry I work in, I find it all a bit pathetic if I'm honest, it's the prenouns that jar me. Why do you have to point it out to everyone.
And before anyone starts my nephew is a trans kid so as a family we have first hand experience and it's also painful for some family members.

[ToTaL ITK]

Yes , woman in her late twenties who is called chloe

She's changed from a woman

Nice person

Don't know anyone who has ever given her hassle

Transphobia definitely exists and maybe always will but most people are open minded these days or alternatively couldn't care less

JK Rowling has made very salient arguments and discussions about these situations , she has recieved death threats and educated university lecturers have been hounded out of their jobs

Fair play .Hope all goes well for Chloe
It's a huge decision to transition because of the family and friends pressure. I know 3 that have done it. Every story is different and some of them are heartbreaking.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Fair play .Hope all goes well for Chloe
It's a huge decision to transition because of the family and friends pressure. I know 3 that have done it. Every story is different and some of them are heartbreaking.

Chloe has learned that some pubs and their regulars are not as welcoming as others

I told her pubs are crap full stop but there you go

[Canton Kev]

Good luck in defending that if it comes to court

What?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

What?

It's OK your honour , my client attacked a woman in the ladies toilets we accept that but she had a right to be there

[Canton Kev]

It's OK your honour , my client attacked a woman in the ladies toilets we accept that but she had a right to be there

What are you babbling on about?

[ToTaL ITK]

.

[Divine Wright]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

100% trying to deflect the focus so they don’t have to use a brain cell and change the way they think.

[ToTaL ITK]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

JK Rowling

[+ the native hipster]

I guess this was a reply to my post

you could look at it that way

but

when " they " started playing football, " they " were a girl, and " they " are still physically a girl ( not taking any hormones ), Playing football is a massive plus for " them " in a rather mundane life, so to me, it really does no harm to anyone if " they " play football and it makes " them " happy while not identifing as a boy or girl, it really is no Drama

the trauma of being 'non binary' and having to say you play on a girls team must be horrendous for her, obviously you cant be a 'non binary' team as then you have to let the boys in, the sad part is she believes gender roles are so strict

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.


100% trying to deflect the focus so they don’t have to use a brain cell and change the way they think.


I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

It's like a tag team of missing the point. It's been said for ages that the main concern is safeguarding women's spaces from predatory males and not transwomen but yeah 100% Some On Here probably don't have a brain etc etc.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Hi thanks for your reply, unfortunately there is and it’s not something that people would be probably be aware about unless you are trans or have a close family member who is trans and experience this stuff regularly. It’s not just one group of people but many. There are groups of people who put incorrect and negative information out there about there which is extremely damaging to trans peoples mental health, safety and even their rights. LGB alliance is just one to mention but there are quite a few in the UK and the US. The groups put things out there and as a result people read things, they believe them. I’ve experienced it for years mate.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Hi there I read your comment so wanted to reply to it with a few things to consider.

First off - people who are transgender are not a threat to women in the toilet/bathroom. If they were, we would know by now because trans people have been using the toilet that they is right for their gender for decades. Yes there are groups of people who kick up a stink about it but where are all these rapes and assaults taking place then?

First off in regards to having the surgery - people do not become a woman or become a man for example when they have gender reassignment surgery. They are already that gender - that’s how they feel already inside. When I was 10 long before I knew what trans was and long before I knew about surgery I already felt I was a boy. I already was. The surgery is to help a persons body realign with how they are feeling inside because not having surgery can cause a lot of mental distress. Many trans people don’t have surgery and never will for many reasons - health or just that they don’t feel it’s necessary. That doesn’t mean they are completely comfortable but they’ve made the decision not to. So basically body parts are just physical parts and they are irrelevant to your gender (again only something that your will be really aware of if you are transgender). Yes most men have penis and most woman have a vagina but this is t the case for trans people who do make up quite a large number of people worldwide.

The second thing I wanted to mention is that just because someone has a penis it doesn’t mean they are going to expose themselves or do something untoward to someone else.

People who are trans are of no more risk than anyone else. I don’t personally know the lady but should is no more of a threat to your daughter than any other women who come into that pub. I would imagine she is very anxious about going into the toilet. Could you imagine being watched like a hawk - I mean if someone was going to commit a crime it’s hardly going to happen in a pub where big brother is watching you. She will go into the toilet in the cubicle, go for a pee or whatever, do make up spray abit of perfume and leave. The trans women is at risk of assault if she goes into either toilet - I would imagine she’s probably scared underneath even if she doesn’t show it.

Just out of interest what does your daughter think about it? If she has listened to a few people in the pub gossiping about it I would imagine she now has the view that this women is dangerous. Which is sad really.

Another thing to mention is that surgery is really no one’s business. Ok I know it’s probably very intriguing to know and fair enough, if she has gone around telling everyone that’s fine but to me it sounds like this person has obviously mentioned it to a couple of people privately and suddenly the whole pub is chatting about it. It’s an extremely personal thing mate. Imagine if you had to have surgery on your private parts - would you be happy with the entire pub chatting about it?

I understand there’s been a load of nonsense kicked up in the media about trans people posing a threat to women in the toilets or others people pretending to be a women (which should be noted is completely different anyway) but please consider that while yes your daughter should always be wary of safety risks anywhere she goes and it’s important she is safe - there is no threat from trans people (no more than any other group of people).

Do you actually know this lady? Have you spoken to her and got to know her? You might be surprised to find out she is just like any other person trying to navigate their way through life.

I’m not sure why she would have been told not to use the women’s toilet and who by?

I hope the above helps your worries and I hope my answers have come across respectful etc. I know many trans people (being trans myself).

[jon1959]

Thanks for your posts SuperBluebirds91. They have really added to this thread, and to my own understanding.

[SuperBluebirds91]

.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Sorry Bluebirdman of Alcathays- I replied to you post this morning but forgot to show whoI was replying too.my reply is the shorter one just above regarding anti trans groups etc from this morning. :thumbup: (post #91)

[SuperBluebirds91]

Apologies to dembethewarrior post #73. For some reason I replied to your post but it didn’t copy you into it so not sure what I did wrong. Anyway I have replied to your post this morning see a few posts above this one regarding the trans women in the pub. Hope that helps. My post above is 92#

[dembethewarrior]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

[UNDERHILL1927]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

I don’t think anyone doesn’t see your point mate. The problem is when people detract from the main point, which is trans rights, and their only argument is a small amount of “what ifs” and extreme situations

[dembethewarrior]

If like to add I'm in discussion mode here not trying to argue. It's nice that we're getting grown up talk with different types of people involved :thumbup:

[SuperBluebirds91]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

Thanks for your reply and of course everyone should be listened to. I appreciate you reading my comments. Don’t forget when I make comments it is only my point of view just like it is yours. Others may disagree on both sides. Some trans people may disagree with what I say but I don’t speak for everyone. I can only say it from my own experience. It should be noted thatI know many trans people but I obviously know many who aren’t aswell…..quite a few more :-)

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post about people being attacked etc. I understand about youngsters being self conscious and I would imagine that many teens are uncomfortable about their bodies in the presence of anyone. No one wants to make people feel uncomfortable but it’s just sad that people do feel this way, and in this case a trans women because that is all that person is….a woman who despite having been born with body parts that don’t align with who they are, they themselves would feel extremely self conscious in any situation and would probably be a person that is likely to be very sensitive and respectful towards others in that situation. What’s I’m trying to say is a trans woman would likely be someone who is an expert on how it feels to be self conscious and who know how to respect others. Obviously that may not take away how your daughter or others may feel so I think it’s probably important for these discussions to continue and more awareness in places such as schools. When I was a teen I played for a girls football team. I was extremely self conscious about the other girls looking at my body in the changing room - It wouldn’t matter who it was, I would self conscious fullstop mate. Of course this may have not have helped as I was trans but it appeared many others on the team were the same.

It’s never about me saying my views are the only ones that are correct, but personally I do think so many have the wrong perception of a trans woman. It’s not something that can be resolved on a football forum and needs further discussion but I appreciate you listening and hoping it has helped alleviate some worries even if you still have concerns mate.

[dembethewarrior]

I don’t think anyone doesn’t see your point mate. The problem is when people detract from the main point, which is trans rights, and their only argument is a small amount of “what ifs” and extreme situations

Every thread goes off on a tangent mate, and be it in work or in the pub or down the football conversation evolves mate.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

I just want to mention one other thing and will leave it that then. There are people who can probably answer your concerns better than me such as LGBT charities such as GLAAD. obviously people don’t have time and have very busy lives. Other things are by far a priority and some people don’t want to look at these things any further and that’s fine. You never know when things could come a lot closer to home for you - what would you do if your daughter was trans? Or a close family member. The more you are equipped the better IMO.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I just want to mention one other thing and will leave it that then. There are people who can probably answer your concerns better than me such as LGBT charities such as GLAAD. obviously people don’t have time and have very busy lives. Other things are by far a priority and some people don’t want to look at these things any further and that’s fine. You never know when things could come a lot closer to home for you - what would you do if your daughter was trans? Or a close family member. The more you are equipped the better IMO.

Your contributions on this thread have been an education for many of us - so please don't hesitate to add any further replies or points.

[dembethewarrior]

Thanks for your reply and of course everyone should be listened to. I appreciate you reading my comments. Don’t forget when I make comments it is only my point of view just like it is yours. Others may disagree on both sides. Some trans people may disagree with what I say but I don’t speak for everyone. I can only say it from my own experience. It should be noted thatI know many trans people but I obviously know many who aren’t aswell…..quite a few more :-)

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post about people being attacked etc. I understand about youngsters being self conscious and I would imagine that many teens are uncomfortable about their bodies in the presence of anyone. No one wants to make people feel uncomfortable but it’s just sad that people do feel this way, and in this case a trans women because that is all that person is….a woman who despite having been born with body parts that don’t align with who they are, they themselves would feel extremely self conscious in any situation and would probably be a person that is likely to be very sensitive and respectful towards others in that situation. What’s I’m trying to say is a trans woman would likely be someone who is an expert on how it feels to be self conscious and who know how to respect others. Obviously that may not take away how your daughter or others may feel so I think it’s probably important for these discussions to continue and more awareness in places such as schools. When I was a teen I played for a girls football team. I was extremely self conscious about the other girls looking at my body in the changing room - It wouldn’t matter who it was, I would self conscious fullstop mate. Of course this may have not have helped as I was trans but it appeared many others on the team were the same.

It’s never about me saying my views are the only ones that are correct, but personally I do think so many have the wrong perception of a trans woman. It’s not something that can be resolved on a football forum and needs further discussion but I appreciate you listening and hoping it has helped alleviate some worries even if you still have concerns mate.

Excellent post.

I'm glad you feel comfortable posting on here.

I think my original point was just how it comes across, as you've got what essentially looks like a man, but someone who identifies and feels like a woman, this can be confusing, because like I tried to put across earlier, this person essentially looks like a bloke dressed up walking into the women's toilet, I'm not saying they should have to use the men's, as that isn't right for them, but under the circumstances I don't see how they use the women's by default either. I'm not an ignorant person (you haven't suggested I am btw) I am always happy to learn and evolve as a person, it'll help me as a father as well.

The scenario isn't of someone fully transitioned, which is why I'm asking and why people feel awkward, these things will normalise over time so it won't be an issue, but as of now it's new for people and confusing as well.

[dembethewarrior]

If we don't ask we don't learn

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Sorry Bluebirdman of Alcathays- I replied to you post this morning but forgot to show whoI was replying too.my reply is the shorter one just above regarding anti trans groups etc from this morning. :thumbup: (post #91)

No problem :thumbup:

[bobh]

https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-02-23


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