View Full Version : "From the river to the sea" chant
JamesWales
29-10-23, 19:00
Not really on is it? I feel deeply uncomfortable and pretty sad about that being chanted so widely on the streets of Britain.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 19:06
Not really on is it? I feel deeply uncomfortable and pretty sad about that being chanted so widely on the streets of Britain.
Well it depends on your perspective
People who want a free Palestine sing it in support of those in gaza
People who are anti Semitic......very different to being pro Palestine and sometimes sing it to intimidate people of Jewish origin
The press have jumped on the song as a reflection of the latter
But that's not a correct conclusion in many cases
Not really on is it? I feel deeply uncomfortable and pretty sad about that being chanted so widely on the streets of Britain.
Well you shouldn't.
https://www.voice.wales/from-the-river-to-the-sea-the-true-history-of-a-famous-slogan-for-palestine/
Well it depends on your perspective
People who want a free Palestine sing it in support of those in gaza
People who are anti Semitic......very different to being pro Palestine and sometimes sing it to intimidate people of Jewish origin
The press have jumped on the song as a reflection of the latter
But that's not a correct conclusion in many cases
The press have jumped on just about anything that doesn’t back Israel’s right to pulverise the Gaza Strip and everything/everyone in it, innocent or not.
The press have jumped on just about anything that doesn’t back Israel’s right to pulverise the Gaza Strip and everything/everyone in it, innocent or not.
Absolutely right and it's sickening
Not really on is it? I feel deeply uncomfortable and pretty sad about that being chanted so widely on the streets of Britain.
Man United fans used to sing something similar back in the day..."From the banks of the river Irwell.."
JamesWales
29-10-23, 20:49
Well you shouldn't.
https://www.voice.wales/from-the-river-to-the-sea-the-true-history-of-a-famous-slogan-for-palestine/
I know who Adam Johannes is. He's a nice guy, American I think, but basically at the forefront of every left-wing protest in Cardiff, so I'm not sure his interpretation is the one everyone uses.
To me it's hard not to view it as proposing the end of Israel, which puts it on the same par as those who want to see the end of Palestine for me.
Maybe it's just unfortunate wording, but I think it's uncomfortable listening to that being chanted so widely. Doesn't help.
I think it's very sad when a certain cohort of people get themselves in a lather over mere words borne out of repression and enforced misery yet appear strangely unmoved by the images of defenseless innocents being routinely slaughtered.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 21:32
I think it's very sad when a certain cohort of people get themselves in a lather over mere words borne out of repression and enforced misery yet appear strangely unmoved by the images of defenseless innocents being routinely slaughtered.
I suspected you wouldn't get it.
I suspected you wouldn't get it.
No I think you rather feared I would: and you'd be correct to be nervous.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 21:44
I know who Adam Johannes is. He's a nice guy, American I think, but basically at the forefront of every left-wing protest in Cardiff, so I'm not sure his interpretation is the one everyone uses.
To me it's hard not to view it as proposing the end of Israel, which puts it on the same par as those who want to see the end of Palestine for me.
Maybe it's just unfortunate wording, but I think it's uncomfortable listening to that being chanted so widely. Doesn't help.
If Israel continue to bomb its going to get louder
In some ways it's all that people have got
I am more concerned about the bombing of hospitals and people in convoys heading south , following instructions from Israel
Far worse than what you describe as an unpleasant chant
I mean you are joking ?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:03
If Israel continue to bomb its going to get louder
In some ways it's all that people have got
I am more concerned about the bombing of hospitals and people in convoys heading south , following instructions from Israel
Far worse than what you describe as an unpleasant chant
I mean you are joking ?
Sludge is your lack of self awareness such that you don't realise what you spend your time endlessly moaning about on here? There are always far more important things, so you don't get to play that card, esp when you were fuming about Kay Burley and demanding she be sacked the other day.
The recognised solution here is a two-state solution. Chants like this don't remotely help achieve that, and they also are more likely to be used by Israel to justify what they are doing.
It's gross.
Sludge is your lack of self awareness such that you don't realise what you spend your time endlessly moaning about on here? There are always far more important things, so you don't get to play that card, esp when you were fuming about Kay Burley and demanding she be sacked the other day.
The recognised solution here is a two-state solution. Chants like this don't remotely help achieve that, and they also are more likely to be used by Israel to justify what they are doing.
It's gross.
James that's pretty lame, even by your standards.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:15
James that's pretty lame, even by your standards.
It's not though is it. It's pretty accurate.
Jordi Culé
29-10-23, 22:22
Sludge is your lack of self awareness such that you don't realise what you spend your time endlessly moaning about on here? There are always far more important things, so you don't get to play that card, esp when you were fuming about Kay Burley and demanding she be sacked the other day.
The recognised solution here is a two-state solution. Chants like this don't remotely help achieve that, and they also are more likely to be used by Israel to justify what they are doing.
It's gross.
“Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”
Part of the Likud Party charter.
I'd suggest that's more of a hindrance to a two party state than woke lefties chanting something in London?
It's not though is it. It's pretty accurate.
It's nothing of the sort. It reflects the innate vacuum of understanding of someone who has a "beginners guide" level of knowledge of the conflict and a cosy innate racism which doesn't allow true appreciation of the issue. Still, I'm sorry you were offended over your Pimm's soiree, maybe it would be an idea to avoid challenging news at the moment.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 22:25
It's not though is it. It's pretty accurate.
It's not widely being chanted stop your fussing
Deeply uncomfortable ?
Worldwide pressure might stop Israel but I very much doubt it , Israel are kicking into war machine mode
Save being deeply uncomfortable as you say for the repercussions of this current madness
Unpleasant chants which are open to interpretation don't kill but Israeli bombs do
Absolutely thousands
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 22:27
James that's pretty lame, even by your standards.
It's pathetic
As limp as a soppy stick of celery
Families are being wiped out by bombs not by protest songs
The Jews and Arabs have been killing each other for years and years
It's not widely being chanted stop your fussing
Deeply uncomfortable ?
Worldwide pressure might stop Israel but I very much doubt it , Israel are kicking into war machine mode
Save being deeply uncomfortable as you say for the repercussions of this current madness
Unpleasant chants which are open to interpretation don't kill but Israeli bombs do
Absolutely thousands
The only thing which would stop Israel would be if the evil USA defunded them and then we'd see them shit themselves confronted with a more even fight.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:37
“Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”
Part of the Likud Party charter.
I'd suggest that's more of a hindrance to a two party state than woke lefties chanting something in London?
Exactly the same principle.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:38
It's pathetic
As limp as a soppy stick of celery
Families are being wiped out by bombs not by protest songs
The Jews and Arabs have been killing each other for years and years
That was happening when you were frothing at the mouth about Kay Burley
Does that mean any chant is okay then?
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 22:38
The only thing which would stop Israel would be if the evil USA defunded them and then we'd see them shit themselves confronted with a more even fight.
Well essentially it's USA and the British on the sidelines
It's never going to end and the best to hope for is periods of madness interrupted by longer periods of peace
I mean it's good to be optimistic in life but I think it's unrealistic when you have two sides at such loggerheads
It's far more complicated than a few students singing songs and swearing at the police
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:39
It's nothing of the sort. It reflects the innate vacuum of understanding of someone who has a "beginners guide" level of knowledge of the conflict and a cosy innate racism which doesn't allow true appreciation of the issue. Still, I'm sorry you were offended over your Pimm's soiree, maybe it would be an idea to avoid challenging news at the moment.
So mass chanting, viewed as racist by many, and widely viewed as promoting a single Palestinian state is progressive and helps does it?
And yes, mass chanting like that on the streets of Britain is offensive IMO.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:40
The only thing which would stop Israel would be if the evil USA defunded them and then we'd see them shit themselves confronted with a more even fight.
USA is evil now. Am starting to see why you are cool with all this..
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 22:41
That was happening when you were frothing at the mouth about Kay Burley
Does that mean any chant is okay then?
Kay Burley is a prominent TV news anchor who was openly lying in front of millions of viewers and influencing people due to her position
If you can't grip the reality of that then I think you should have a few days off
So mass chanting, viewed as racist by many, and widely viewed as promoting a single Palestinian state is progressive and helps does it?
And yes, mass chanting like that on the streets of Britain is offensive IMO.
Most people, unlike you, detest repression and this is an outburst of support for people who cannot help themselves; they have the whole military and economic might of the Western world against them. You should maybe question your beliefs and show solidarity for the oppressed rather than being taken in by capitalist inspired lies.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:45
Kay Burley is a prominent TV news anchor who was openly lying in front of millions of viewers and influencing people due to her position
If you can't grip the reality of that then I think you should have a few days off
She was also talking about some insignificant event that David Lammy went to that no one paid much attention too. All the while people were being killed, but it's Kay Burley you got upset about.
She asked some questions. Mass racist chanting (as perceived by many) is something quite different indeed.
USA is evil now. Am starting to see why you are cool with all this..
USA has always been evil: have you been hibernating or something?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:47
Most people, unlike you, detest repression and this is an outburst of support for people who cannot help themselves; they have the whole military and economic might of the Western world against them. You should maybe question your beliefs and show solidarity for the oppressed rather than being taken in by capitalist inspired lies.
It's hard to believe that people with your naivity exist, but I guess they do.
Is any chant okay in that respect then? What about people who wanted to express support for any other cause? Christians in Egypt for example? Does that mean it's cool to sing anti-muslim songs?
I'm not sure of your logic.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 22:47
USA has always been evil: have you been hibernating or something?
Now I know you are a troll.
So mass chanting, viewed as racist by many, and widely viewed as promoting a single Palestinian state is progressive and helps does it?
And yes, mass chanting like that on the streets of Britain is offensive IMO.
From the river to the sea Palestine will be free.... of apartheid, ethnic cleansing, white Jewish supremacy, imprisonment without trial, murder by armed reactionary settlers, murder by the (misnamed) Israeli Defence Forces, and 75 years of colonial occupation and daily breaches of international law.
But of course 'many' view that anti-racist sentiment as racist and in your opinion it is offensive. Well if people are offended by a chant for freedom and democracy they (and you) deserve to be offended. I would be more impressed if you declared your offence at the mass murder of children, civilians, journalists, medical staff and aid workers.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 22:55
She was also talking about some insignificant event that David Lammy went to that no one paid much attention too. All the while people were being killed, but it's Kay Burley you got upset about.
She asked some questions. Mass racist chanting (as perceived by many) is something quite different indeed.
But she's lying and causing friction between communities due to those lies , on national TV
Thousands of people have called for her sacking
She didn't ask any questions ......she made a series of statements that were completely untrue
She did that because she is a stone cold conservative and was trying to discredit the opposition
You can't have news anchors lying at times of conflict and making political calls ?
Don't be utterly ubsurd
People on public demonstrations will occasionally chant stuff
Malcomb Rifkind .....a Scottish tory jew has just said on radio 4 news that public protest is vital and only a few hundred people were involved
If as a jew he's prepared to see things for what they are then that's fair enough as far as I am concerned
Jordi Culé
29-10-23, 23:03
Exactly the same principle.
Perhaps? Although the Likud Party leader is currently putting his words into practice at the minute.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:08
From the river to the sea Palestine will be free.... of apartheid, ethnic cleansing, white Jewish supremacy, imprisonment without trial, murder by armed reactionary settlers, murder by the (misnamed) Israeli Defence Forces, and 75 years of colonial occupation and daily breaches of international law.
But of course 'many' view that anti-racist sentiment as racist and in your opinion it is offensive. Well if people are offended by a chant for freedom and democracy they (and you) deserve to be offended. I would be more impressed if you declared your offence at the mass murder of children, civilians, journalists, medical staff and aid workers.
The Anti-Defamation league consider it antisemitic.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
It's not necessary is it? Isnt this about peace? Why the rise in hate crimes, the calls of jihad, the songs that are considered antisemitic?
None of it is helpful to the legitimate causes of peace or a long two-state solution is it?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:11
But she's lying and causing friction between communities due to those lies , on national TV
Thousands of people have called for her sacking
She didn't ask any questions ......she made a series of statements that were completely untrue
She did that because she is a stone cold conservative and was trying to discredit the opposition
You can't have news anchors lying at times of conflict and making political calls ?
Don't be utterly ubsurd
People on public demonstrations will occasionally chant stuff
Malcomb Rifkind .....a Scottish tory jew has just said on radio 4 news that public protest is vital and only a few hundred people were involved
If as a jew he's prepared to see things for what they are then that's fair enough as far as I am concerned
Anti Semitic hate crimes have soared in the UK in the last few weeks, and here you are being okay with chants widely considered to be antisemitic being chanted by many people at rallies.
You are allowed to criticise it you know.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:12
Perhaps? Although the Likud Party leader is currently putting his words into practice at the minute.
I believe they support a two-state solution now, no?
I certainly no, which is why I think it's a very poor chant to be hearing which is deeply unhelpful and doesn't help anyone's cause whatsoever.
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 23:14
The Anti-Defamation league consider it antisemitic.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
It's not necessary is it? Isnt this about peace? Why the rise in hate crimes, the calls of jihad, the songs that are considered antisemitic?
None of it is helpful to the legitimate causes of peace or a long two-state solution is it?
This is a conflict
Songs don't kill people wether you dislike them or not
The reason the police didn't get involved is because they were advised they would be on sticky ground
The worst threat to peace and to civil disorder and tit for tat attacks on Jews and Arabs is terrorism and trying to get revenge for these actions by bombing people like sitting ducks in gaza
Write to your mp or Mr sunak
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 23:17
Anti Semitic hate crimes have soared in the UK in the last few weeks, and here you are being okay with chants widely considered to be antisemitic being chanted by many people at rallies.
You are allowed to criticise it you know.
Rifkind a prominent Conservative jew explains his views that a minority of people chanting should be put in perspective.....
Or you ?
I will keep my counsel
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 23:18
I believe they support a two-state solution now, no?
I certainly no, which is why I think it's a very poor chant to be hearing which is deeply unhelpful and doesn't help anyone's cause whatsoever.
So how often have YOU heard this chant ?
Who was singing it ?
And where ?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:19
This is a conflict
Songs don't kill people wether you dislike them or not
The reason the police didn't get involved is because they were advised they would be on sticky ground
The worst threat to peace and to civil disorder and tit for tat attacks on Jews and Arabs is terrorism and trying to get revenge for these actions by bombing people like sitting ducks in gaza
Write to your mp or Mr sunak
Songs don't kill people, you are right. So songs widely considered as racist, or certainly suggesting a nation shouldn't exist are therefore okay?
The problem is that words do cause problems. And that's why word matter and there are consequences of things like this. Again, it's stuff like this that undermines the marches, that will be used by Israel to justify violence and more than anything is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trying to find peace.
"Stop the war", "Peace", "Pray for Palestine", "Free Palestine" all do that. "from the river to the sea.." does not do that. It inflames things. And you know it too.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:21
So how often have YOU heard this chant ?
Who was singing it ?
And where ?
There's ample references to it online from the march in London on Saturday, and the same march the week before
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 23:24
There's ample references to it online from the march in London on Saturday, and the same march the week before
But you didn't witness it ?
You are getting frothy mouthed
100000 on the march , a small minority singing this song that you think was offensive but others don't
I think you are pissing scarlet ribbons
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:27
But you didn't witness it ?
You are getting frothy mouthed
100000 on the march , a small minority singing this song that you think was offensive but others don't
I think you are pissing scarlet ribbons
I wasn't at Gillingham on Saturday either but I still saw a video of that idiot doing monkey impressions (which I guess you are cool with as impressions don't hurt anyone, right?)
Type it into twitter. Theres numerous videos of the chant being sung by many - not all of course, far from all, but that doesn't make it okay and mean you can sweep it under the carpet.
Jordi Culé
29-10-23, 23:41
I believe they support a two-state solution now, no?
I certainly no, which is why I think it's a very poor chant to be hearing which is deeply unhelpful and doesn't help anyone's cause whatsoever.
You believe Netanyahu supports a real two state solution? Allowing a Palestinian state with full sovereignty? Netanyahu has had to cosy up to Otzma Yehudit who are a far right wing party should refuse to accept any discussion about two state solutions.
You accuse others of being naive?
SLUDGE FACTORY
29-10-23, 23:41
I wasn't at Gillingham on Saturday either but I still saw a video of that idiot doing monkey impressions (which I guess you are cool with as impressions don't hurt anyone, right?)
Type it into twitter. Theres numerous videos of the chant being sung by many - not all of course, far from all, but that doesn't make it okay and mean you can sweep it under the carpet.
What racist impressions of Jewish people did you see or hear about on these marches ?
Can you forward me someone doing racist impressions of Jewish people along the same lines as those done by the Gillingham idiot on Saturday?
When you have done that I will give you my opinion as to its offensiveness
You are complaining that these chants used by a small minority of pro Palestinian protestors ......and quite a few hi jackers and hangers on .....are not doing the peace process any good
I certainly don't think this faux outrage by you on here is contributing to be honest
The main cause of this shitshow is the hamas attack and the bombing going on which will cause far more long term damage and repercussions to both communities
You are sinking like a heavy stone here and I am going to bed
Now I know you are a troll.
You know nothing: you are a pampered infant.
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:50
You believe Netanyahu supports a real two state solution? Allowing a Palestinian state with full sovereignty? Netanyahu has had to cosy up to Otzma Yehudit who are a far right wing party should refuse to accept any discussion about two state solutions.
You accuse others of being naive?
Despite your whataboutery Jordi, this thread is about a chant widely considered to be racist at worst or calling for the end of a nation at best that is entirely unconnected to finding a peaceful solution.
It doesn't help the peace cause one bit.
Why can't you say it isn't on?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:51
What racist impressions of Jewish people did you see or hear about on these marches ?
Can you forward me someone doing racist impressions of Jewish people along the same lines as those done by the Gillingham idiot on Saturday?
When you have done that I will give you my opinion as to its offensiveness
You are complaining that these chants used by a small minority of pro Palestinian protestors ......and quite a few hi jackers and hangers on .....are not doing the peace process any good
I certainly don't think this faux outrage by you on here is contributing to be honest
The main cause of this shitshow is the hamas attack and the bombing going on which will cause far more long term damage and repercussions to both communities
You are sinking like a heavy stone here and I am going to bed
So racist chants are okay with you is essentially what you are saying, if it is a minority?
JamesWales
29-10-23, 23:51
You know nothing: you are a pampered infant.
Good one.
It's hard to believe that people with your naivity exist, but I guess they do.
Is any chant okay in that respect then? What about people who wanted to express support for any other cause? Christians in Egypt for example? Does that mean it's cool to sing anti-muslim songs?
I'm not sure of your logic.
You're not sure of my logic because you've been brainwashed from birth and people like you who are lucky enough to live in luxury have no moral repulsion against slaughter of the innocents because it doesn't impinge upon your fortunate lives. People like you live in a cocoon. However, nasty little chants from the fuzzy wuzzies imposes fear into your cosy little existence. Don't worry, you can always shut the lights out and forget all about it.
Good one.
I'm glad the truth is starting to ram home; perhaps we'll make an upstanding citizen of you yet. I have hope!
JamesWales
30-10-23, 00:02
You're not sure of my logic because you've been brainwashed from birth and people like you who are lucky enough to live in luxury have no moral repulsion against slaughter of the innocents because it doesn't impinge upon your fortunate lives. People like you live in a cocoon. However, nasty little chants from the fuzzy wuzzies imposes fear into your cosy little existence. Don't worry, you can always shut the lights out and forget all about it.
You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.
Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.
All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.
You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.
Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.
All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.
James you are on another planet. Forget anti -semitic chanting, we have innocent children and babies being slaughtered by Israeli terrorists. Before you start that is no anti -semitic description, many Jewish people are horrified by this murderous onslaught.
If you are so dim and/or bigoted to be more concerned by repressed people voicing their anger at their evil overlords rather than the genocide of innocent people then I can't see how anyone could have an intelligent discourse with you. You're obviously a troubled individual and if I were religious I'd pray for you.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 00:32
James you are on another planet. Forget anti -semitic chanting, we have innocent children and babies being slaughtered by Israeli terrorists. Before you start that is no anti -semitic description, many Jewish people are horrified by this murderous onslaught.
If you are so dim and/or bigoted to be more concerned by repressed people voicing their anger at their evil overlords rather than the genocide of innocent people then I can't see how anyone could have an intelligent discourse with you. You're obviously a troubled individual and if I were religious I'd pray for you.
I think you are the dim one. Where did I say that chanting matters more than people dying? I didn't say that. The point is, antisemitic chanting will not solve the problem, it will only contribute to making it worse. It only adds to the conflict and undermines efforts at peace, emboldened Israel as they can point to such instances happening in many cities.
And that's why you shouldn't support it, but you can't bring yourself to say it, which I find very odd.
And by your logic..that something worse is always happening..you would tolerate all racist or xenophobic chanting. Is that your position? Or is it only in this scenario that it's okay?
You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.
Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.
All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.
Decided to escalate and double down have you?
The ‘river to the sea’ is not anti Semitic. It was originally a Zionist slogan (very popular with Old Testament bashing Christian Zionists) to illustrate their ethnic cleansing ambitions. It was appropriated by the Palestinians to describe their ambition for a free and democratic state (or states if you were persuaded by Oslo) that over turned the colonial occupation we know now.
You have decided to echo the propaganda of the oppressors and vilify their victims. Not a surprise.
Jewish protestors in London and New York against the bloodbath in Gaza had no problem chanting ‘From the river to the sea Palestine will be free’ because they know it is about creating a land which is free of oppression and can be a home to all. It is the defenders of apartheid and ethnic cleansing who call that anti Semitism.
the other bob wilson
30-10-23, 05:18
So mass chanting, viewed as racist by many, and widely viewed as promoting a single Palestinian state is progressive and helps does it?
And yes, mass chanting like that on the streets of Britain is offensive IMO.
As racist and offensive as calling people gammon? You do love throwing the racism accusations around don’t you.
Jordi Culé
30-10-23, 06:54
Despite your whataboutery Jordi, this thread is about a chant widely considered to be racist at worst or calling for the end of a nation at best that is entirely unconnected to finding a peaceful solution.
It doesn't help the peace cause one bit.
Why can't you say it isn't on?
My '"whataboutery" is pointing out both sides in this debate are using similar vocabulary. You don't seem to be offended by the Likud party use of it? Even though it could be construed they are putting their words into practice? Strangely, you've ignored what is actually taking place in Palestine/Israel to become all outraged about flip flops wearing lefties using a slogan in London as you don't think their actions are helpful to any peace process.
Fuuck me.
Well it depends on your perspective
People who want a free Palestine sing it in support of those in gaza
People who are anti Semitic......very different to being pro Palestine and sometimes sing it to intimidate people of Jewish origin
The press have jumped on the song as a reflection of the latter
But that's not a correct conclusion in many cases
Yes you are right - if you are an anti Semite - then your perspective is right and you will chant it.
Maybe as the ccmb international spokes person you could tell us why it's not a correct conclusion?
Eric Cartman
30-10-23, 09:46
James rather than this clickbaity type 'some people think x is racist', why don't you explain why you think the chant is inherently racist/anti-semitic, the thread would go better then I think.
I think you are the dim one. Where did I say that chanting matters more than people dying? I didn't say that. The point is, antisemitic chanting will not solve the problem, it will only contribute to making it worse. It only adds to the conflict and undermines efforts at peace, emboldened Israel as they can point to such instances happening in many cities.
And that's why you shouldn't support it, but you can't bring yourself to say it, which I find very odd.
And by your logic..that something worse is always happening..you would tolerate all racist or xenophobic chanting. Is that your position? Or is it only in this scenario that it's okay?
One thing's for sure you obviously never studied logic. Did you study anything?
All that's happened in this thread is that you've shown yourself up to be bigoted, insecure and incapable of original thought.
If you are more bothered by chants than genocide then there's little hope for you.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 09:58
One thing's for sure you obviously never studied logic. Did you study anything?
All that's happened in this thread is that you've shown yourself up to be bigoted, insecure and incapable of original thought.
If you are more bothered by chants than genocide then there's little hope for you.
It's would be harder to find more irony in a post on here if I spent a year searching for it!
It's would be harder to find more irony in a post on here if I spent a year searching for it!
So that's another thing you don't understand lol. You need a lot of education I think but in all fairness deep down I think you're an honest trier. Naiive but honest.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 10:09
James rather than this clickbaity type 'some people think x is racist', why don't you explain why you think the chant is inherently racist/anti-semitic, the thread would go better then I think.
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
Jordi Culé
30-10-23, 10:31
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
How did the Netherlands judiciary regard the chant/slogan?
Have you conveniently disregarded their ruling?
Differing interpretations to the same words I guess?
I guess you could call it nuance?
SLUDGE FACTORY
30-10-23, 11:08
Yes you are right - if you are an anti Semite - then your perspective is right and you will chant it.
Maybe as the ccmb international spokes person you could tell us why it's not a correct conclusion?
I
So the people who are not anti jew but chant it to display their support of a free Palestine?
That's most people ......what's your conclusion about them ?
Do you think they are anti Semitic?
You are down a dark alley here
You are on the same level of stupidity and right wing nonsense spouting as James Wales , he's taken a right beating on here and it's his ego that's making it worse for him
A middle class white boy outraged by songs being sung on a public demo and suggesting there will be no peace because of this song ?
It's pathetic
Hamas and the far right zionist nutcases are the problem
Stop the bombing ff sake .....along comes JW with the oh Israel has the right to defend its self you know !
I am outraged !
Send more missiles , repeat ad nauseum
JamesWales
30-10-23, 11:10
How did the Netherlands judiciary regard the chant/slogan?
Have you conveniently disregarded their ruling?
Differing interpretations to the same words I guess?
I guess you could call it nuance?
So only some Jews find it racist then? Is that your basis for it being cool?
Inflames the situation, considered racist by some, so all good? No discomfort at all.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 11:13
I
So the people who are not anti jew but chant it to display their support of a free Palestine?
That's most people ......what's your conclusion about them ?
Do you think they are anti Semitic?
You are down a dark alley here
You are on the same level of stupidity and right wing nonsense spouting as James Wales , he's taken a right beating on here and it's his ego that's making it worse for him
A middle class white boy outraged by songs being sung on a public demo and suggesting there will be no peace because of this song ?
It's pathetic
Hamas and the far right zionist nutcases are the problem
Stop the bombing ff sake .....along comes JW with the oh Israel has the right to defend its self you know !
I am outraged !
Send more missiles , repeat ad nauseum
I haven't taken a beating. I've consistently claimed this is an unhelpful song that is likely racist and at a time of rising antisemitism is not good to hear on the streets of Britain.
The usual apologists, some of whom last week couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the calls for jihad on our streets, are now incapable of seeing the issue with it.
How toxic do things need to be?!
There is calling for peace and there chants that many consider racist. Wtf would you pick the latter to celebrate?
SLUDGE FACTORY
30-10-23, 11:25
I haven't taken a beating. I've consistently claimed this is an unhelpful song that is likely racist and at a time of rising antisemitism is not good to hear on the streets of Britain.
The usual apologists, some of whom last week couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the calls for jihad on our streets, are now incapable of seeing the issue with it.
How toxic do things need to be?!
There is calling for peace and there chants that many consider racist. Wtf would you pick the latter to celebrate?
I think you are full of fake outrage
It's pathetic
What have you achieved by saying on here you are outraged by a song that has been sung for generations by both Palestinians and Arabs ?
I am outraged by the time bombing of little kids
You are not doing anything about your virtue signalling
If there was a pro Israel march in London or Cardiff the chances of you joining it would be zero
You would be on here , sniffling and moaning
Talk TV is made for you
Jordi Culé
30-10-23, 11:46
So only some Jews find it racist then? Is that your basis for it being cool?
Inflames the situation, considered racist by some, so all good? No discomfort at all.
You're trying to control the narrative again Jimbo, failing by the way.
So far you've recognised the words used by peace protestors as being anti semetic but not anti Arab when used by the party currently in government in Israel as their stated aim. In fairness, you do acknowledge the vocabulary of both groups being very similar but have managed to control your outrage towards the Likud Party/Israeli Government who are currently practicing what they preach in the form of bonbing the fuuck out of Gaza and its population, the majority who are civilians.
You are though, outraged by a number of lentil eating, lemon tea drinking flip flop wearers in London as they may cause trouble to any peace process and are obviously calling for the extermination of all Jewish people.
Also you're now conclusively (in your eyes) proving the words used by both Pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli groups are inflammatory and considered racist (you still haven't said they were for Pro Israeli groups though?). Your extensive research shows that Austria agrees with your sentiments, other facts presented show that not all countries agree with those sentiments.
You appear to be very intransigent about this matter which for me is surprising as you've regularly put it out on CCMB how you are able to interpret situations that those with much lower intelligence levels just cannot fathom. If I may dare suggest, you seem blinkered in relation to the topic which sort of nicely sums up the whole wider issue of Israel/Palestine at the moment and that includes both sides of the fence.
I think you are full of fake outrage
It's pathetic
What have you achieved by saying on here you are outraged by a song that has been sung for generations by both Palestinians and Arabs ?
I am outraged by the time bombing of little kids
You are not doing anything about your virtue signalling
If there was a pro Israel march in London or Cardiff the chances of you joining it would be zero
You would be on here , sniffling and moaning
Talk TV is made for you
Jimmy's taken an absolutely thrashing in this thread: No one agrees with him except for little Pipsqueak who always seems to pop up to lick Jim's entrails.
Jimmy cannot or more likely refuses to see he's wrong but of course being the faux "intellectual one" he resorts to belittle anyone else as "apologists" and extremists just because they disagree with him. Didn't he even try to decry people who happened to have supported the previous Labour leader because in Jim's book anyone who doesn't support his one-eyed view are heathens.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 12:07
You're trying to control the narrative again Jimbo, failing by the way.
So far you've recognised the words used by peace protestors as being anti semetic but not anti Arab when used by the party currently in government in Israel as their stated aim. In fairness, you do acknowledge the vocabulary of both groups being very similar but have managed to control your outrage towards the Likud Party/Israeli Government who are currently practicing what they preach in the form of bonbing the fuuck out of Gaza and its population, the majority who are civilians.
You are though, outraged by a number of lentil eating, lemon tea drinking flip flop wearers in London as they may cause trouble to any peace process and are obviously calling for the extermination of all Jewish people.
Also you're now conclusively (in your eyes) proving the words used by both Pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli groups are inflammatory and considered racist (you still haven't said they were for Pro Israeli groups though?). Your extensive research shows that Austria agrees with your sentiments, other facts presented show that not all countries agree with those sentiments.
You appear to be very intransigent about this matter which for me is surprising as you've regularly put it out on CCMB how you are able to interpret situations that those with much lower intelligence levels just cannot fathom. If I may dare suggest, you seem blinkered in relation to the topic which sort of nicely sums up the whole wider issue of Israel/Palestine at the moment and that includes both sides of the fence.
I think the issue Jordi is that there has been a massive rise in antisemitism, little Jewish kids schools in London daubed in blood, some windows snashed, arrests for racism and mass chanting on the streets calling for something that many call racist.
I've never ever defended what Israel do. It's not me defending that, and there is another thread on that
The war itself is of course more abhorrent. But this kind of rhetoric as well as bringing racial discord to the UK and making some fear walking the streets is only likely to prolong that. It doesn't promote nor make the two state solution any easier.
I think this is about some pretty disturbing events and opinions latching onto a legitimate peace movement that helps absolutely no one and I think it should be called out for what it is, without turning a blind eye.
You were more angry about the Rubiales kiss than people chanting racist slogans on the street. Fancy that.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 12:10
Jimmy's taken an absolutely thrashing in this thread: No one agrees with him except for little Pipsqueak who always seems to pop up to lick Jim's entrails.
Jimmy cannot or more likely refuses to see he's wrong but of course being the faux "intellectual one" he resorts to belittle anyone else as "apologists" and extremists just because they disagree with him. Didn't he even try to decry people who happened to have supported the previous Labour leader because in Jim's book anyone who doesn't support his one-eyed view are heathens.
Why don't you try to explain to us why in an period of conflict, rising gare crime on all sides but particularly towards Jews in the UK you are so happy to defend a chant that many would consider racist?
Aside from anything else it muddies the aims of the protests doesn't it?
No one disputes calling for peace or a free Palestine, but the song in question is considered racist by many. Do you really not care a jot about that? Your response is to defend it and personally attack the person pointing out it's not Okay.
Why is that?
Why don't you try to explain to us why in an period of conflict, rising gare crime on all sides but particularly towards Jews in the UK you are so happy to defend a chant that many would consider racist?
Aside from anything else it muddies the aims of the protests doesn't it?
No one disputes calling for peace or a free Palestine, but the song in question is considered racist by many. Do you really not care a jot about that? Your response is to defend it and personally attack the person pointing out it's not Okay.
Why is that?
James any so called personal attacks I make are only in response to your continual ad hominem sneers. Maybe you could consider conducting your debates more on a structured basis rather than resorting to risible personal slights. Just a bit of friendly advice, you might find more people take your arguments seriously if you avoid abusing people.
As for the main thrust of your argument I find any instance of anti-Jewish personal abuse, particularly against children, abhorrent and I would be happy to see any perpetrator collared by the police. On the other hand I think any protest against Zionism and the Israeli government is justified and only cynics and malcontents will try to conflate the two issues.
The "River to the Sea" chant is in my opinion firmly in the camp of Arab/Palestinian reaction to repression and the longing for a free homeland. Despite some Jews not liking it that doesn't mean it should be proscribed because it has been pointed out the true meaning of the chant is open to misinterpretation.
However my main point is that at this time I think all our energies should be directed at trying in some small way to get to a ceasefire quickly and stop the horrific daily carnage. I can't get over exercised about a mass call for freedom.
By the way you may have noticed I never use the term anti-Semitic and prefer anti-Jewish because the former is problematic in the sense that both Jews and Muslims in the main are, among other ethnic groups, Semites. I think it an unfortunate use of terminology.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 13:07
James any so called personal attacks I make are only in response to your continual ad hominem sneers. Maybe you could consider conducting your debates more on a structured basis rather than resorting to risible personal slights. Just a bit of friendly advice, you might find more people take your arguments seriously if you avoid abusing people.
As for the main thrust of your argument I find any instance of anti-Jewish personal abuse, particularly against children, abhorrent and I would be happy to see any perpetrator collared by the police. On the other hand I think any protest against Zionism and the Israeli government is justified and only cynics and malcontents will try to conflate the two issues.
The "River to the Sea" chant is in my opinion firmly in the camp of Arab/Palestinian reaction to repression and the longing for a free homeland. Despite some Jews not liking it that doesn't mean it should be proscribed because it has been pointed out the true meaning of the chant is open to misinterpretation.
However my main point is that at this time I think all our energies should be directed at trying in some small way to get to a ceasefire quickly and stop the horrific daily carnage. I can't get over exercised about a mass call for freedom.
By the way you may have noticed I never use the term anti-Semitic and prefer anti-Jewish because the former is problematic in the sense that both Jews and Muslims in the main are, among other ethnic groups, Semites. I think it an unfortunate use of terminology.
Have you read what you've written to me in this thread?! All for....saying that chanting racist chants on the street is disturbing and unhelpful. Have a word with yourself.
Have you read what you've written to me in this thread?! All for....saying that chanting racist chants on the street is disturbing and unhelpful. Have a word with yourself.
Of course I read it. Did you think it was written by AI?
I dispute your description of racism. You don't get to be Judge, Jury and Executioner you know.
Jordi Culé
30-10-23, 13:22
I think the issue Jordi is that there has been a massive rise in antisemitism, little Jewish kids schools in London daubed in blood, some windows snashed, arrests for racism and mass chanting on the streets calling for something that many call racist.
I've never ever defended what Israel do. It's not me defending that, and there is another thread on that
The war itself is of course more abhorrent. But this kind of rhetoric as well as bringing racial discord to the UK and making some fear walking the streets is only likely to prolong that. It doesn't promote nor make the two state solution any easier.
I think this is about some pretty disturbing events and opinions latching onto a legitimate peace movement that helps absolutely no one and I think it should be called out for what it is, without turning a blind eye.
You were more angry about the Rubiales kiss than people chanting racist slogans on the street. Fancy that.
Wowser! *laughing*
That's going off at a tangent buddy.
I can see what you're getting at though as you're floundering in this discussion as you were in that one due to induced myopia caused by having your head stuck up your own arse and being unable to see other people's perspectives or indeed feelings.
Back to today's discussion though, Pro Palestinian supporters in London, England are more of an obstacle to peace in Gaza than the Israeli state/ Likud Party who are currently bombing it to absolute bits and it's the Pro Palestinian supporters shouting slogans that are disturbing your ever so genteel sensibilities the most?
You're correct that anti semitic incidents reported have gone up, you should point out so have reports of islamophobia. Interestingly, islamophobic reports were higher than anti semitic crimes reported prior to Hamas attacks in Israel.
You know that though.
Have I missed anything?
No comment on the chant I had no idea what it is/meant until reading this Fred, the biggest disappointment for me is the almost total lack of interest in looking for a peaceful solution, from any of the main players, yes it's been going on since day dot but if your not talking, peace is impossible, my 1st memory of this conflict I think is the Munich Olympics and without googling I'm reasonably sure it's related?. Whilst knowing about the 6 day war I cannot remember it on TV.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 13:44
Of course I read it. Did you think it was written by AI?
I dispute your description of racism. You don't get to be Judge, Jury and Executioner you know.
But I've provided links to various organisations that DO consider it racist and it is they who matter here. Its not really for you to tell someone it isn't racist if they are saying it is, and the wording, whilst as ever is a grey area is pretty dodgy.
There are ways to call for peace or support Palestine without using slogans and chants that many consider racist so when that doesn't happen, I think it should be called out. Aside from anything it doesn't calm the situation or make peace anymore likely, as I've said, if anything its the exact opposite.
So probably racist, probably xenophobic, definitely unpleasant, likely to make people fearful, and highly unlikely to help the cause of peace.
So why support it?!
JamesWales
30-10-23, 13:48
Wowser! *laughing*
That's going off at a tangent buddy.
I can see what you're getting at though as you're floundering in this discussion as you were in that one due to induced myopia caused by having your head stuck up your own arse and being unable to see other people's perspectives or indeed feelings.
Back to today's discussion though, Pro Palestinian supporters in London, England are more of an obstacle to peace in Gaza than the Israeli state/ Likud Party who are currently bombing it to absolute bits and it's the Pro Palestinian supporters shouting slogans that are disturbing your ever so genteel sensibilities the most?
You're correct that anti semitic incidents reported have gone up, you should point out so have reports of islamophobia. Interestingly, islamophobic reports were higher than anti semitic crimes reported prior to Hamas attacks in Israel.
You know that though.
Have I missed anything?
I did point that out
I have said I don't support what Israel is doing
You can't really accuse others of tangents when you take a criticism of racist chanting and use it to mean I support Zionism. If I object to someone being called a 'p***' that doesn't mean I support the Pakistani govt either..get it?!
I just don't see why you don't call it out. Many Jewish people are telling you it's racist but you are like...nah it's okay..what do they know?
And again, aside from anything it's souring what is of course a very legitimate set of protests for peace
But I've provided links to various organisations that DO consider it racist and it is they who matter here. Its not really for you to tell someone it isn't racist if they are saying it is, and the wording, whilst as ever is a grey area is pretty dodgy.
There are ways to call for peace or support Palestine without using slogans and chants that many consider racist so when that doesn't happen, I think it should be called out. Aside from anything it doesn't calm the situation or make peace anymore likely, as I've said, if anything its the exact opposite.
So probably racist, probably xenophobic, definitely unpleasant, likely to make people fearful, and highly unlikely to help the cause of peace.
So why support it?!
All on your opinion, not mine and whatever other groups think about it is of no concern to me. I will make my own mind up thank you.
Your continual deflecting only serves to confirm your greater concern for chants of freedom rather than outright slaughter of children and babies. It really doesn't show you up in a good light.
In any case I started another thread questioning the ethics of world governments not demanding a ceasefire. I note you haven't responded to that which leads me to assume that slaughter and genocide is not your main concern but rather the sensibilities of a few people put out by a chant for freedom.
Eric Cartman
30-10-23, 14:46
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.
I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.
Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.
life on mars
30-10-23, 15:29
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Joint_Staff/13-F-0117_DOC_07-course-materials-perspectives-on-Islam_and_Islamic_radicalism.pdf
https://theconversation.com/antisemitism-how-the-origins-of-historys-oldest-hatred-still-hold-sway-today-87878
life on mars
30-10-23, 15:50
I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.
I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.
It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!
The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The American Jewish committee do too
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea
Austria even banned a march based on it
https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/
Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374
How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
Jordi Culé
30-10-23, 16:45
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
Jesus Allah.
Eric Cartman
30-10-23, 17:24
Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .
OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...
Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .
Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??
By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .
Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.
We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .
The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.
You sound more like you want the eradication of all Muslims than a two state solution.
Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.
5885
If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.
Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!
JamesWales
30-10-23, 19:44
My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.
I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.
Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.
I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.
But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.
So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?
If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.
Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.
This chant should get in the bin.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 19:46
Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.
5885
If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.
Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!
I think you are confused Jon. I am the one objecting to the chant. I'm saying it's not okay, irrespective of who says it.
It's you that seems to think it's okay.
Eric Cartman
30-10-23, 20:37
I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.
But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.
So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?
If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.
Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.
This chant should get in the bin.
It isn't about ignoring it, it is about not wanting to set a precedent that you later regret. It is about valuing one person's right to say something over the other person's right to be offended/upset.
There is a line somewhere of course but you do appear to be drawing it very close to one end of the spectrum, evidenced by the fact that you don't seem to be able to explain why you think the words are racist or racially motivated.
There is also an argument that censoring/suppressing something that you think develops into or is linked to dangerous extremism probably won't achieve what you intend it to for a few reasons. 1) extremist views go underground but also 2) the moderates feel unjustly persecuted and move further towards entrenched ideological positions and further away from pushing for a logical solution which stops innocent people dying.
life on mars
30-10-23, 21:21
Let's be honest quite a number of folk within these Pro Palestinian marches are a handy cover for Antisemitism hatred.
See Labour starting to show its colours as Andy Mcdonald is suspended for uttering this dreadful genocide phrase .
What happens with his actual Muslim MP's surely they resigned on principle.
Everyones fool Corbyn may have to step up and save the party or form a new one with his radicals .
JamesWales
30-10-23, 21:28
It isn't about ignoring it, it is about not wanting to set a precedent that you later regret. It is about valuing one person's right to say something over the other person's right to be offended/upset.
There is a line somewhere of course but you do appear to be drawing it very close to one end of the spectrum, evidenced by the fact that you don't seem to be able to explain why you think the words are racist or racially motivated.
There is also an argument that censoring/suppressing something that you think develops into or is linked to dangerous extremism probably won't achieve what you intend it to for a few reasons. 1) extremist views go underground but also 2) the moderates feel unjustly persecuted and move further towards entrenched ideological positions and further away from pushing for a logical solution which stops innocent people dying.
Yeah I get that, there is a balance to be found and you certainly can't be banning things merely for being unpleasant or offensive. And I don't doubt there is different interpretations of this song (the wording Andy McDonald has been suspended for actually seems harsh)..
But..I think when you have a lot of people living in genuine fear in this country, I really don't think the song is tolerable yet it seems to be in a way we wouldn't tolerate other songs deemed as racist by many on the receiving end.
Personally I view it more as xenophobic and about seeking to deny Israel its existence. People would dispute this of course, and others still would say this is the meaning and because of Israel's history as the only Jewish state, they could also in turn consider it racist.
I think it's grim and I find it pretty uncomfortable seeing people chant it and I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
Again, aside from anything else it highlights that there may be a pretty unpleasant minority attaching themselves to peace marches.
JamesWales
30-10-23, 22:22
Funnily enough BBC talking about these very issues now on the 10 O clock news.
What Andy McDonald said at the demonstration on Saturday:
"We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."
This is deeply offensive to Labour, to the Mail, to the Israeli spin machine and to Life on Mars (who calls it genocidal - whilst the death tolls climbs in Gaza!). Of course it is. We need more lectures on morality from the board's top misogynist and Islamophobe!
We are in the middle of a cynical, bullshit, hypocritical propaganda war whilst hundreds of babies are burnt and dismembered by bombs every night. It's sick.
the other bob wilson
31-10-23, 06:09
What Andy McDonald said at the demonstration on Saturday:
"We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."
This is deeply offensive to Labour, to the Mail, to the Israeli spin machine and to Life on Mars (who calls it genocidal - whilst the death tolls climbs in Gaza!). Of course it is. We need more lectures on morality from the board's top misogynist and Islamophobe!
We are in the middle of a cynical, bullshit, hypocritical propaganda war whilst hundreds of babies are burnt and dismembered by bombs every night. It's sick.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67268154
Meanwhile, the Israeli PM is saying this is the time for war.
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-10-23, 09:06
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67268154
Meanwhile, the Israeli PM is saying this is the time for war.
Absolute clown
Far more dangerous to Jewish people in the UK than the rivers to the sea chants
Complete nutter , would peace being determined by a 2000 year old book full of fairy stories
Absolute clown
Far more dangerous to Jewish people in the UK than the rivers to the sea chants
Complete nutter , would peace being determined by a 2000 year old book full of fairy stories
He's not a clown, he's a genocidal maniac.
Jordi Culé
31-10-23, 18:46
I did point that out
I have said I don't support what Israel is doing
You can't really accuse others of tangents when you take a criticism of racist chanting and use it to mean I support Zionism. If I object to someone being called a 'p***' that doesn't mean I support the Pakistani govt either..get it?!
I just don't see why you don't call it out. Many Jewish people are telling you it's racist but you are like...nah it's okay..what do they know?
And again, aside from anything it's souring what is of course a very legitimate set of protests for peace
I haven't called out the slogan as I don't see it as being anti semitic. Not in the case of the majority of Pro Palestinisn supporters marching in London.
If used by a Hamas member, I'd have probably a different interpretation.
What I see is the term/slogan being weaponised by both sides to interpret meaning which suits their opinions or politics.
It was used in the 60s before Hamas corrupted it.
JamesWales
31-10-23, 21:26
I haven't called out the slogan as I don't see it as being anti semitic. Not in the case of the majority of Pro Palestinisn supporters marching in London.
If used by a Hamas member, I'd have probably a different interpretation.
What I see is the term/slogan being weaponised by both sides to interpret meaning which suits their opinions or politics.
It was used in the 60s before Hamas corrupted it.
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
By the way the words of Alexei Sayle are worth reading for those getting overvexed about this issue. Just maybe he has found a stance to adopt as a way out of this nightmare for everyone.
JamesWales
31-10-23, 22:10
Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?
Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?
I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?
Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.
However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.
The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-10-23, 22:12
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself
Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians
You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948
The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics
JamesWales
31-10-23, 22:29
You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself
Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians
You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948
The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
SLUDGE FACTORY
31-10-23, 22:49
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
You have got more excuses than a master of excuses
You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages
Anyone else would graciously retire
JamesWales
31-10-23, 22:59
You have got more excuses than a master of excuses
You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages
Anyone else would graciously retire
Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.
You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.
For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.
Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.
There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.
But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!
It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.
And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.
Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.
The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.
I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?
Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.
However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.
The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.
At last we agree about something
SLUDGE FACTORY
01-11-23, 10:17
There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.
But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!
It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.
And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.
Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.
The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.
If people who call for a free Palestine are according to JW cool with what he thinks are anti Semitic chanting .....despite being sung by plenty of people of Jewish origin then he clearly is an Israeli stooge
SLUDGE FACTORY
01-11-23, 10:22
Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.
You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.
OK let's call it as you would say
You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism
You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else
That's Zionism
You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child
JamesWales
01-11-23, 10:49
OK let's call it as you would say
You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism
You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else
That's Zionism
You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child
Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.
Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.
SLUDGE FACTORY
01-11-23, 11:22
Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.
Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.
You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting
That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing
It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it
It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians
If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence
But like the Palestinians you have nothing
You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it
JamesWales
01-11-23, 13:23
You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting
That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing
It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it
It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians
If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence
But like the Palestinians you have nothing
You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it
I didn't actually say you are cool with antisemitism, I said you are cool with the chant (and you clearly are) and that chant is considered racist. You can put the two together if you want but I didn't say it.
And for the nth time, this is about social harmony in that UK, not the war itself which is plainly massively more traumatic.
However, given you started a thread demanding Kay Burley be sacked for asking a politician a question you rather lose the right to accuse others of not seeing the bigger picture.
Jordi Culé
02-11-23, 16:57
Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.
But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475
In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.
So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.
And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.
I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.
I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.
'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.
To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.
My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?
As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.
Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.
Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.
JamesWales
03-11-23, 17:30
I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.
I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.
'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.
To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.
My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?
As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.
Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.
Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.
It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.
Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.
So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.
I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.
As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.
It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.
Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.
So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.
I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.
As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
SLUDGE FACTORY
03-11-23, 18:42
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
The Israeli government is democratic extremist
Which basically means they kill people if they have to and sometimes when they don't have to
There is video footage of gangs of Israelis in tel aviv chanting kill the Arabs! circulating on the news tonight
But that's OK because Israel is a democracy
JamesWales
03-11-23, 18:46
You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?
You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?
Wow!
I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.
If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history
I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.
If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
SLUDGE FACTORY
03-11-23, 20:31
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
Indeed
It may be a pseudo democracy but that doesn't mean it isn't prone to killing and lying
Blimey Thatcher and the sinking of the belgrano and Blair in Iraq!
Legitimacy by election doesn't clear states of illegality
JamesWales
03-11-23, 20:55
I'm not equating them as the same thing.
I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.
I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.
But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.
There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).
Don't disagree with much of that tbh. I just think sometimes we forget that Israel is by far the most liberal and democratic state in the middle east.
As I said though, that makes no difference if that state is responsible (or even part responsible if you blame Hamas first) for a family member dying.
I also think it's unfortunate that Netanyahu is in power, but I think he's also a product of the wider arena there. Who in that part of the world seeks a weak leader? Irrespective, he is in power and I don't think the response would be much different if he wasn't really and Hamas knew what would happen. I can only hope that somehow after this we reach some kind of reckoning that means people demand peace in future, from both sides. But I can't see this happening until Hamas are no more.
Jordi Culé
04-11-23, 07:10
It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.
Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.
So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.
I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.
As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.
James, I suggest you re-read my posts to see what my opinion on 'From the River...' is and the political motivations for its use by the majority of Pro Palestinian peace ptotestors in London.
I think I'm right in acknowledging that the 'slogan' can be viewed as both problematic and anti semitic/anti Arab when used by certain political groups, organisations or individuals.
I'll reaffirm my points that the slogan is being interpreted by different groups to legitimise and give credibility to their opinions, politics, beliefs, that's pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli by the way.
You've become concerned, outraged even, about woke lefties probably named Tamara and Tarquin, destabilising the peace process by marching around London sporting a shemagh each. How is the peace process doing this morning as a quick glimpse on a news website says a UN official is stating there is no actual safe place in the whole of Gaza.
As for not seeing the Israeli government as being extremist, I'll suggest their current policy of collective punishment on Gaza (which is construed as a war crime) supports my opinion they're as bad as Hamas.
Not sure why you've thrown 'gay rights' into the equation of a thread you started quite specifically? For me, we lost any credibility on that when the World Cup was hawked to Qatar and very little was said about their lack of equality. I'll wait for the great and the good to ramp up the support of 'gay rights' when the World Cup trots off to Saudi in 2034, or the next Tyson Fury fight is held in Saudi. Perhaps St. Pep of Catalonia can say something in support of gay rights or we can expect the Man City and Newcastle teams to sport rainbow t-shirts before a game at the Ethiad when playing a fixture?
As pointed out, no one will disagree with your point regarding gay civil rights in Gaza but you're swerving the original discussion and points. The discussion and points you've brought to the table butt.
SLUDGE FACTORY
04-11-23, 13:45
I don't care how liberal and democratic people who support Israel think it is
I couldn't give a toss
Those are just words
Facts show that liberal and democratic Israel, our friends apparently , are bombing kids
If that's being liberal and democratic take us back to the caves
I don't care how liberal and democratic people who support Israel think it is
I couldn't give a toss
Those are just words
Facts show that liberal and democratic Israel, our friends apparently , are bombing kids
If that's being liberal and democratic take us back to the caves
I think countries can be democratic and still abhorrent. Often it's due to the fact they have an abhorrent majority within their populace. Whether a country is democratic or not is irrelevant.
SLUDGE FACTORY
04-11-23, 17:28
I think countries can be democratic and still abhorrent. Often it's due to the fact they have an abhorrent majority within their populace. Whether a country is democratic or not is irrelevant.
America has plenty of moronic rednecks
Jordi Culé
05-11-23, 11:50
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/
Seems like a reasonable suggestion?
In fairness Netanhayu has binned him for the moment.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/
Seems like a reasonable suggestion?
In fairness Netanhayu has binned him for the moment.
What happened to "but Israel is only defending itself"?
What happened to "but Israel is only defending itself"?
Havent you had the call from the UN yet ?
Thought they would have recognised your peace negotiating skills by now.. surely, a man like yourself is wasted campaigning on here - you should be on the world stage where you can show case your abilities, reach for the stars and save the world...
SLUDGE FACTORY
05-11-23, 14:11
Havent you had the call from the UN yet ?
Thought they would have recognised your peace negotiating skills by now.. surely, a man like yourself is wasted campaigning on here - you should be on the world stage where you can show case your abilities, reach for the stars and save the world...
This is part of your MO on here
It's a little odd
SLUDGE FACTORY
05-11-23, 14:14
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/
Seems like a reasonable suggestion?
In fairness Netanhayu has binned him for the moment.
When it's too extreme even for
Netanyahu , you know he's flakey
This is part of your MO on here
It's a little odd
He's so thick he has to babble like a baby.
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