Why aren't we producing good young players?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but was Aaron Ramsey the last player of any note that was nurtured through our youth system? If so, what a player to produce, but it could be argued that four or five players maybe with half the ability of Ramsey would serve the club better than one brilliant player every ten years or so. The question is,why isn't the club producing young players with the character and ability to play at this level, it really does seem like a dour situation and from the outside, looks to me that the youth policy isn't working for the club.

Things have changed massively for young footballers over the last ten to fifteen years, emphasis is on education off the field, technique, nutrition, recovery, touch and awareness on the pitch, as well as being intelligent during a game whether with or without the ball, it's supposed to be the way of an academy, young players are supposed to be more rounded footballers. Go back to the early nineties, when none of the things i've mentioned were really implemented, we produced Nathan Blake, Damon Searle, nurtured a very young and inexperienced Gavin ward, three players who could play at Championship level. Then a little later, Scott Young, Nathan Jones, Earnie, James Collins, Chris Gunter, all could have, were, or are decent Championship players. The science wasn't really prevalent when these players came through the ranks, so why aren't we producing players when young players are supposedly being coached and nurtured in a much better way than when previous players were making the step up?

One of the reasons i believe that we're not seeing a return on the Academy is that they play these u23 games, which seem to me like glorified youth matches, and not even close to the competitiveness and physicality needed to step up in the professional game. I'm not sure when this change came about, but i recall the club playing reserve football, that would include youth players and seasoned professionals, as well as trialists released by other clubs, there was a competitive edge with young players pitting their wits against seasoned players who new every trick in the book and with a point to prove or an imminent move, that 'edge' just can't be there in these u21-u23 games, they don't reflect a real footballing environment, how can they?

Of the players i've mentioned above, all were decent, some better than others, but what they did have in common-and you can include Jason Perry-was character, an edge, a mental toughness that may have been produced by playing in a more real and competitve enviroment, that doesn't seem to be the case now, and there has to be a reason or reasons for it.

It is the same for every club.:thumbup:

if you mean we as cardiff city or we as Wales or we as the uk elite footballers are behind in everything you state . All sports including football is constantly changing every few years to gain a narrow margin over the competition . To me to have a chance to compete at the very top level the emphasis should always be about youth

as well as developing footballers by playing futsal at a young age bio banding is the next craze that all sports are now looking at to produce top class elite athletes . As ive mentioned a million times before if messi was born in the uk he wouldn't have got past an under 14 age group academy in the UK . An interesting article regarding the size of youngsters at youth level

https://www.pitchero.com/blog/should...y-size-not-age

time will tell but when that time comes the world will be moving on again to gain the edge without just producing 6 foot plus robot type footballers

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

if you mean we as cardiff city or we as Wales or we as the uk elite footballers are behind in everything you state . All sports including football is constantly changing every few years to gain a narrow margin over the competition . To me to have a chance to compete at the very top level the emphasis should always be about youth

as well as developing footballers by playing futsal at a young age bio banding is the next craze that all sports are now looking at to produce top class elite athletes . As ive mentioned a million times before if messi was born in the uk he wouldn't have got past an under 14 age group academy in the UK . An interesting article regarding the size of youngsters at youth level

https://www.pitchero.com/blog/should...y-size-not-age

time will tell but when that time comes the world will be moving on again to gain the edge without just producing 6 foot plus robot type footballers

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The thing is Mozz, i'm not convinced that things like futsal will make any difference to how young players develop in this country. I really believe that football is cultural and a unique style is afforded to most nations based on culture, history and the way people live their lives, trying to emulate a system that may benefit a different culture or country isn't necessarily going to work. Have a look at the players that have been successful abroad that were born in the UK, Ince, Beckham, Owen, Macmanaman, even Bale, all of them were or are direct players, that's what this country does best, the problem is that coaches seem to be bogged down with science and a fascination with Barcelona, in turn, these coaches seem to be trying to coach british players in a way that doesn't suit their culture, and it isn't working, infact, it's getting worse.

futsal will make a very big of difference to developing young players in the uk make no mistake but it's too late for our national 11 a side teams to have an impact now as we are 10-15 years behind . didn't want to make it a futsal post more a bio banding post as the sizing of youngsters is now the next big buzz in the sporting world .

as for futsal a home championship competition is starting in 4 weeks time at the house of sport involving wales, england , scotland and northern ireland the first time ever . can't wait looking forward to it

england should win the group at a canter with the amount of money the english is investing in the sport but hopefully wales can finish 2'nd

meet rico wales first wales pro futsal player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nVG7XkzjtQ

futsal will make a very big of difference to developing young players in the uk make no mistake but it's too late for our national 11 a side teams to have an impact now as we are 10-15 years behind . didn't want to make it a futsal post more a bio banding post as the sizing of youngsters is now the next big buzz in the sporting world .

as for futsal a home championship competition is starting in 4 weeks time at the house of sport involving wales, england , scotland and northern ireland the first time ever . can't wait looking forward to it

england should win the group at a canter with the amount of money the english is investing in the sport but hopefully wales can finish 2'nd

meet rico wales first wales pro futsal player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nVG7XkzjtQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Correct me if i'm wrong, but was Aaron Ramsey the last player of any note that was nurtured through our youth system? If so, what a player to produce, but it could be argued that four or five players maybe with half the ability of Ramsey would serve the club better than one brilliant player every ten years or so. The question is,why isn't the club producing young players with the character and ability to play at this level, it really does seem like a dour situation and from the outside, looks to me that the youth policy isn't working for the club.

Things have changed massively for young footballers over the last ten to fifteen years, emphasis is on education off the field, technique, nutrition, recovery, touch and awareness on the pitch, as well as being intelligent during a game whether with or without the ball, it's supposed to be the way of an academy, young players are supposed to be more rounded footballers. Go back to the early nineties, when none of the things i've mentioned were really implemented, we produced Nathan Blake, Damon Searle, nurtured a very young and inexperienced Gavin ward, three players who could play at Championship level. Then a little later, Scott Young, Nathan Jones, Earnie, James Collins, Chris Gunter, all could have, were, or are decent Championship players. The science wasn't really prevalent when these players came through the ranks, so why aren't we producing players when young players are supposedly being coached and nurtured in a much better way than when previous players were making the step up?

One of the reasons i believe that we're not seeing a return on the Academy is that they play these u23 games, which seem to me like glorified youth matches, and not even close to the competitiveness and physicality needed to step up in the professional game. I'm not sure when this change came about, but i recall the club playing reserve football, that would include youth players and seasoned professionals, as well as trialists released by other clubs, there was a competitive edge with young players pitting their wits against seasoned players who new every trick in the book and with a point to prove or an imminent move, that 'edge' just can't be there in these u21-u23 games, they don't reflect a real footballing environment, how can they?

Of the players i've mentioned above, all were decent, some better than others, but what they did have in common-and you can include Jason Perry-was character, an edge, a mental toughness that may have been produced by playing in a more real and competitve enviroment, that doesn't seem to be the case now, and there has to be a reason or reasons for it.

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Just a couple of points I disagree with you about to start with. Ramsey wasn't a once in ten years player - the only other one I can think of who played for a club at the top end of the club games highest tier and appeared for them regularly in European competition was John Toshack in the time I have supported the club and he had left Liverpool by his mid to late twenties. Also, although to be fair to him, he never got the chance to prove me wrong because of injury, I'm not convinced Scott Young was good enough for the Championship.

Having got that out of the way, I must say that I agree with the large majority of what you say. You only have to look at the England teams struggles to get your proof that the Academy system at the top clubs has not fulfilled one of it's main aims when it was set up - that is, to provide a stronger national team.

Below that level, the latest rule changes in favour of Category One clubs has produced a system where you could understand smaller clubs questioning whether it's worth them continuing with an Academy when any really promising teenager they bring through can be bought by one of the big boys for a pittance as happened when Man City signed Rabbi Matondo from us.

Mind you, based on what we have seen in recent years, would Matondo have really been given the first team opportunity that he is unlikely to ever get at Man City if he had remained at Cardiff? Predents suggest that the answer is probably no.

I'm always banging on about Russell Slade effectively closing down the Academy for two years, but it's too easy to blame him for all that has gone wrong at the club regarding the the transition from Development team to first eleven.

I agree completely about the Development team concept and this is especially true now that the age limit for selection for this team has been raised to twenty three from twenty one. There was a time when Academy scholars starting on their first full time pro contract would face plenty of sides like the one City put out against Palace last Monday. That was a proper reserve team and those Palace players would have learned more playing against a team full of men that night than they do in five typical Development team games.

Many would say that Tommy O'Sullivan is the player who best represents the failure of both his club to get home produced youngsters into the first team and the whole Development team system, but I would say that this is a mantle more appropriate to Theo Wharton.

Both of these players were finding Development team football easy four years ago when they were still teenagers and that should have been the time when they should have been given the occasional chance to play against men at first team level by either playing in our first team from time to time or being loaned out to another side.

What happened instead was that they "stagnated" - I agreed with Russell Slade when he suggested this had happened to Tommy and I feel it applies equally to Theo who looked like a midfield player who had a bit of everything to his game at that time. To be fair to Slade, he was able to get Tommy, belatedly, loaned out to Port Vale and Newport and it has to be said that the results were hardly earth shattering, but Theo is now in a position where he is probably not going to be given another contract when his current deal runs out (don't think Tommy will get one either) having never been played against men except for in competitive games except for those few first team games he played under Malky Mackay in the FA and League Cup. It may be that Theo was not good enough to make a first team player, but he could well leave the professional game having never been given a chance to prove otherwise - City will have to admit that someone cocked up somewhere for that to happen at a club rapidly losing the reputation for giving youth a chance that it enjoyed in the early days of it's Academy.

Yesterday I watched Jarrad Welch give a superb midfield performance for the Under 18 team in their 3-0 win over Watford, He reminds me of myself in one way because he shares my habit of trying too many "Hollywood" passes, but any comparison ends after that because he has skill, strength, a bit of pace and stamina. Yesterday he looked like someone who could be ready for first team football pretty soon, but, given the way the club is shaped these days, he needs to have played senior football at a decent level for that to happen - he was loaned out to Aberdare in the second half of last season, but, with respect, he needs to go out to someone better than that now.

It's too easy to say we don't produce good young players any more, but I don't believe that - the problem is that we don't seem to know what to do with them when we do.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Just a couple of points I disagree with you about to start with. Ramsey wasn't a once in ten years player - the only other one I can think of who played for a club at the top end of the club games highest tier and appeared for them regularly in European competition was John Toshack in the time I have supported the club and he had left Liverpool by his mid to late twenties. Also, although to be fair to him, he never got the chance to prove me wrong because of injury, I'm not convinced Scott Young was good enough for the Championship.

Having got that out of the way, I must say that I agree with the large majority of what you say. You only have to look at the England teams struggles to get your proof that the Academy system at the top clubs has not fulfilled one of it's main aims when it was set up - that is, to provide a stronger national team.

Below that level, the latest rule changes in favour of Category One clubs has produced a system where you could understand smaller clubs questioning whether it's worth them continuing with an Academy when any really promising teenager they bring through can be bought by one of the big boys for a pittance as happened when Man City signed Rabbi Matondo from us.

Mind you, based on what we have seen in recent years, would Matondo have really been given the first team opportunity that he is unlikely to ever get at Man City if he had remained at Cardiff? Predents suggest that the answer is probably no.

I'm always banging on about Russell Slade effectively closing down the Academy for two years, but it's too easy to blame him for all that has gone wrong at the club regarding the the transition from Development team to first eleven.

I agree completely about the Development team concept and this is especially true now that the age limit for selection for this team has been raised to twenty three from twenty one. There was a time when Academy scholars starting on their first full time pro contract would face plenty of sides like the one City put out against Palace last Monday. That was a proper reserve team and those Palace players would have learned more playing against a team full of men that night than they do in five typical Development team games.

Many would say that Tommy O'Sullivan is the player who best represents the failure of both his club to get home produced youngsters into the first team and the whole Development team system, but I would say that this is a mantle more appropriate to Theo Wharton.

Both of these players were finding Development team football easy four years ago when they were still teenagers and that should have been the time when they should have been given the occasional chance to play against men at first team level by either playing in our first team from time to time or being loaned out to another side.

What happened instead was that they "stagnated" - I agreed with Russell Slade when he suggested this had happened to Tommy and I feel it applies equally to Theo who looked like a midfield player who had a bit of everything to his game at that time. To be fair to Slade, he was able to get Tommy, belatedly, loaned out to Port Vale and Newport and it has to be said that the results were hardly earth shattering, but Theo is now in a position where he is probably not going to be given another contract when his current deal runs out (don't think Tommy will get one either) having never been played against men except for in competitive games except for those few first team games he played under Malky Mackay in the FA and League Cup. It may be that Theo was not good enough to make a first team player, but he could well leave the professional game having never been given a chance to prove otherwise - City will have to admit that someone cocked up somewhere for that to happen at a club rapidly losing the reputation for giving youth a chance that it enjoyed in the early days of it's Academy.

Yesterday I watched Jarrad Welch give a superb midfield performance for the Under 18 team in their 3-0 win over Watford, He reminds me of myself in one way because he shares my habit of trying too many "Hollywood" passes, but any comparison ends after that because he has skill, strength, a bit of pace and stamina. Yesterday he looked like someone who could be ready for first team football pretty soon, but, given the way the club is shaped these days, he needs to have played senior football at a decent level for that to happen - he was loaned out to Aberdare in the second half of last season, but, with respect, he needs to go out to someone better than that now.

It's too easy to say we don't produce good young players any more, but I don't believe that - the problem is that we don't seem to know what to do with them when we do.

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Fair enough about Ramsey and Young-I can't believe i didn't add Ledley, another direct player, especially in his earlier years. I've never watched a development game live, but seen highlights on player, and although they all look like they've got a good touch, passing ability etc, the games always look quite slow, they seem like they are afforded alot of time on the ball, which certainly isn't going to be the case if or when these players make the step up into the first team, without being dis-respectful, they look like training games where players are told to stand off the opposition a bit in order to prevent injury.

I really believe that a return to a reserve league with players at different levels of ability and at different stages of career would suit young players much better. I spent some time at the club, and there was a youth team for the apprentices, the next step up was the reserves, and a young player had to do well in the youth team to make that step up. Although not the greatest of quality, it was competitive and a real chance to claim a spot in the first team, as you would be up against four, five, maybe six first team players who may have been dropped, or in dispute with the manager (that happened alot) it was a baptism of fire for a sixteen 17 year old, and you had to learn very quickly, but you knew that if you did well, than there was a very real chance of getting a place in the first team squad.

Jarrard Welch sounds like a prospect, but i sort of lost it when you mentioned your preference for the 'Hollywood' ball, fair play Bob, i'd have had you down as a holding midfielder who broke up the play and gave it to the 'better' players, it's an image stuck in my head now that doesn't seem to want to go away, although you've certainly gone up in my estimation, 'Holylwood Wilson' great title for a book :thumbup:

The last person you could say was successful is Declan John but the argument isn't that strong there.

Adam Matthews and Darcy Blake before that. So we are talking 4-8 years ago when players were last being moulded into the first team.

In all fairness I think we have been extremely lucky to see Ramsey come through and we probably won't see another of that class for 40 or 50 years unless something drastic changes for the club.

If you take a look at the current Welsh side, 4 of those have come from our academy - Collins, Gunter, Ledley and Ramsey.

3 of them have come from Swansea - Allen, Davies, MacDonald and 4 if you count Emyr Huws who was poached by Man City.

2 from Wrexham - Ward and Taylor.

I guess my point here is we (Welsh clubs) don't see a great deal of players come through and properly make it as a pro in our first teams. Some of them e.g. O'Sullivan and Wharton (as mentioned above), perhaps Yorwerth and Tom James were/haven't been given a proper chance at the club in first team - especially in the last couple of years where we have had totally meaningless cup games/end of year league games and continued to play the same squad of players. What's a young player thinking if he can't get a game over a knackered 30 year old, who desperately needs a break?

If Ramsey was a 17 year old under Russell Slade he'd have probably not even trained with the older group and would still be here now as a 20 year old rotting in our academy.

It's a difficult one and hard to single out one reason. Probably the biggest reason is that we have had a lot of money to spend on transfers since the days of Ramsey and Co.

We have been a club who has flirted and ultimately achieved promotion in that time and we have generally adopted a shit or bust approach to promotion.

Since then we had Russell Slade who in my opinion was happy to just keep his job for another week so his focus on the academy and the future of the club was non-existent.

Trollope had a nightmare and when Warnock was appointed I had very little optimism that things would improve. However, having recently read his book he said he brought in 14 players from the academy at Palace!

It was also great to see him down Treforest taking an interest in the younger kids a few weeks ago. I believe a few academy kids have been training up with the first team too recently.

I do think that there maybe is a lack of an edge that you mention and some are quite happy to look pretty and ping balls around. My mate manages a Welsh league team and he says that some of the kids from the academy lack drive and hunger and maybe some do think they've arrived.

The culture of English football in the top two divisions hardly promotes pushing through kids for first team football. There's too much money and too much disparity, so I don't see it changing any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Fair enough about Ramsey and Young-I can't believe i didn't add Ledley, another direct player, especially in his earlier years. I've never watched a development game live, but seen highlights on player, and although they all look like they've got a good touch, passing ability etc, the games always look quite slow, they seem like they are afforded alot of time on the ball, which certainly isn't going to be the case if or when these players make the step up into the first team, without being dis-respectful, they look like training games where players are told to stand off the opposition a bit in order to prevent injury.

I really believe that a return to a reserve league with players at different levels of ability and at different stages of career would suit young players much better. I spent some time at the club, and there was a youth team for the apprentices, the next step up was the reserves, and a young player had to do well in the youth team to make that step up. Although not the greatest of quality, it was competitive and a real chance to claim a spot in the first team, as you would be up against four, five, maybe six first team players who may have been dropped, or in dispute with the manager (that happened alot) it was a baptism of fire for a sixteen 17 year old, and you had to learn very quickly, but you knew that if you did well, than there was a very real chance of getting a place in the first team squad.

Jarrard Welch sounds like a prospect, but i sort of lost it when you mentioned your preference for the 'Hollywood' ball, fair play Bob, i'd have had you down as a holding midfielder who broke up the play and gave it to the 'better' players, it's an image stuck in my head now that doesn't seem to want to go away, although you've certainly gone up in my estimation, 'Holylwood Wilson' great title for a book :thumbup:

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I'm talking about when I was in my teens here mind, but if there was a choice between a flashy crossfield ball and a sensible, but effective, five yard pass, I'd always opt for the former and there are elements of that in Welch's game - to be fair to him, another difference between him and the me of forty odd years ago is that many of his find their intended target!

When I left school, I barely played much football after that, but went through a phase of playing squash in my twenties and my attitude was the same then. I'd be forever trying to play volleyed drop shots from the back of the court. I was a goodish player and became pretty good at playing that shot, but it would always be a case of me sounding off afterwards about the one or two that came off, as opposed to the fifteen or twenty that didn't :hehe::thumbup:.

Isn't there some stat about how many players Pochetino has introduced and England squads? Something like the majority of new caps have come from either Spurs or Southampton.

It seems that you need the right manager and right circumstances to introduce youth players at any level these days: West Brom and Sunderland are doing it due to their circumstances while Pep (often supplement by big name signings) and Poch do it due to the style of their play. Mark Hughes seems to be not so interested but does have a chairman who would support a greater focus on youth while there are plenty of others fans and/or chairmen wanting instant success who wouldn't allow for a youth player to have their chance. Even the most supportive of fan can be caught saying "the manager sees them every week in training, if the kid was good enough he'd be playing" only for an out of sorts Scott Malone to be prioritised over a potentially promising Declan John or an Arsenal youth reject picked over a home grown talent who goes to another championship club.

There is a lot of talk about the potential need for quotas to ensure future English (widen it to British to escape the biased British media) talent and a lot of talk of sports science and statistics, I wonder how a club would do if they had a fixed quota in their squad for young promising players, here and now players and more experienced lot who their fitness staff and coaches were able to get the best out of?

I know a guy in the Under 18s and he always says that the Under 16s look class and that a fair few could make it at the club

I was wondering if there's any truth in that and they're the next big hope?

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Originally Posted by City123

I know a guy in the Under 18s and he always says that the Under 16s look class and that a fair few could make it at the club

I was wondering if there's any truth in that and they're the next big hope?

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I can't be sure about this, but I believe the Under 16s have only lost one match in the league this season. From what I've seen of them, they do look a good bunch and two ot three of the five players selected in the Wales Victory Shield squad for last week's competition made a big impact up ion Scotland.

Players such as Sion Spence and Sam Bowen are breaking into the Under 18 team and there have been one or two others I've seen do well at that level when they've been given a chance.

Certainly, the Under 16s were the age group that Russell Slade and Ken Choo were most excited about when they attended a meeting with Trust members earlier this year and, based on what I've seen and heard, there will have to be serious questions asked at the club if we don't get one of the current Under 16 squad into the first team.

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Originally Posted by surge

Isn't there some stat about how many players Pochetino has introduced and England squads? Something like the majority of new caps have come from either Spurs or Southampton.

It seems that you need the right manager and right circumstances to introduce youth players at any level these days: West Brom and Sunderland are doing it due to their circumstances while Pep (often supplement by big name signings) and Poch do it due to the style of their play. Mark Hughes seems to be not so interested but does have a chairman who would support a greater focus on youth while there are plenty of others fans and/or chairmen wanting instant success who wouldn't allow for a youth player to have their chance. Even the most supportive of fan can be caught saying "the manager sees them every week in training, if the kid was good enough he'd be playing" only for an out of sorts Scott Malone to be prioritised over a potentially promising Declan John or an Arsenal youth reject picked over a home grown talent who goes to another championship club.

There is a lot of talk about the potential need for quotas to ensure future English (widen it to British to escape the biased British media) talent and a lot of talk of sports science and statistics, I wonder how a club would do if they had a fixed quota in their squad for young promising players, here and now players and more experienced lot who their fitness staff and coaches were able to get the best out of?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Tottenham.html

Not sure if Rickie Lambert should qualify really mind!

I know they had a situation whereby a certain proportion of those on the bench had to be youth players up in Scotland a few years ago, but I'm not sure it still exists - the problem with quotas, as UEFA found out about twenty years, is that any legal challenge to them is usually successful.

Sky Money has a lot to answer for I'm afraid, because even in the Championship now, the attitude is let's spend a couple of million on someone rather than give a kid a chance.