Will Labour and the Conservatives end up widening the gap between the political left and right?

First off, it's worth noting that Labour didn't win the last election by persuading lots of voters to change their vote and vote for them. They didn't sweep to power as Blair did in 1997, under a promise of making things better.

In the recent history of the party, a socialist leader forced a hung parliament, was then savaged by the media who first laughed at him and then realised people supported him. Labour were trounced by Boris Johnson in a popularity contest and looked at how to change. Labour believed it needed to take over the middle ground again, believing that policies that were more right wing were what the public wanted. They have adopted some form of mild Conservatism as a result. In the last decade, socialism has become a word to avoid, despite many socialist policies being popular with many voters. Labour has lost votes on the left side of the political spectrum, while in the last election, parties on the left have grown in support. There probably has been a small swing of Tory voters who voted Labour, though many decided to go with Reform. We have a situation where the left feel left out by Labour, while the right feel left out by the Tories, but many voters have arguably gone with one or the other often to stop the other lot!

I notice that immigration is now the most important issue overall for voters. I have lost count of the number of older people who are up in arms about losing winter fuel payments and are demanding an end to the all the handouts for the "boat people" instead. They believe all these immigrants are flooding the country for all of our freebies, a belief quickly destroyed by scrutiny of the facts, but facts don't matter to people that much any more, neither are any political parties interested in educating people about immigration. Reform won't take long to jump on the bandwagon here - a simple promise to restore those allowances to everyone and a promise to end immigration will see lots of older people looking at them as a viable alternative. Of course, Reform can promise what they want at the moment as they have no chance of power, but Labour have scored an own goal here.

It's worth noting again that, while socialism has been turned into a dirty word, Labour's purge on socialist MPs over the last couple of years has ensured that the recent amendment on the winter fuel payments didn't pass. My local MP was a socialist who would have voted to keep the payments, but our new MP after boundary changes, a centrist, voted to stop them. Would the recent amendments have passed a few years ago? Possibly yes.

I also notice that more people seem to be talking more about the huge wages and bonuses bosses of energy companies and so on are getting and the dialogue about the wealthiest getting wealthier while average working people having less and less to spend will grow. Eventually that will become another issue where some will say enough is enough. The current Labour party has distanced itself from that argument.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

First off, it's worth noting that Labour didn't win the last election by persuading lots of voters to change their vote and vote for them. They didn't sweep to power as Blair did in 1997, under a promise of making things better.

In the recent history of the party, a socialist leader forced a hung parliament, was then savaged by the media who first laughed at him and then realised people supported him. Labour were trounced by Boris Johnson in a popularity contest and looked at how to change. Labour believed it needed to take over the middle ground again, believing that policies that were more right wing were what the public wanted. They have adopted some form of mild Conservatism as a result. In the last decade, socialism has become a word to avoid, despite many socialist policies being popular with many voters. Labour has lost votes on the left side of the political spectrum, while in the last election, parties on the left have grown in support. There probably has been a small swing of Tory voters who voted Labour, though many decided to go with Reform. We have a situation where the left feel left out by Labour, while the right feel left out by the Tories, but many voters have arguably gone with one or the other often to stop the other lot!

I notice that immigration is now the most important issue overall for voters. I have lost count of the number of older people who are up in arms about losing winter fuel payments and are demanding an end to the all the handouts for the "boat people" instead. They believe all these immigrants are flooding the country for all of our freebies, a belief quickly destroyed by scrutiny of the facts, but facts don't matter to people that much any more, neither are any political parties interested in educating people about immigration. Reform won't take long to jump on the bandwagon here - a simple promise to restore those allowances to everyone and a promise to end immigration will see lots of older people looking at them as a viable alternative. Of course, Reform can promise what they want at the moment as they have no chance of power, but Labour have scored an own goal here.

It's worth noting again that, while socialism has been turned into a dirty word, Labour's purge on socialist MPs over the last couple of years has ensured that the recent amendment on the winter fuel payments didn't pass. My local MP was a socialist who would have voted to keep the payments, but our new MP after boundary changes, a centrist, voted to stop them. Would the recent amendments have passed a few years ago? Possibly yes.

I also notice that more people seem to be talking more about the huge wages and bonuses bosses of energy companies and so on are getting and the dialogue about the wealthiest getting wealthier while average working people having less and less to spend will grow. Eventually that will become another issue where some will say enough is enough. The current Labour party has distanced itself from that argument.

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Good post Eric. I’ve reached my self-imposed quota on here today but I’ll be back tomorrow. Full disclosure. I used to be a card carrying labour member for as long as I can remember but after Starmer was elected leader and reneged on his election pledges (I didn’t vote for him as leader) I cut it up and sent it to him with my resignation letter containing the reasons. My own MP Stephen Doughty abstained the other night.

You can't do anything without power

And even if you get power you will end up breaking promises and pissing people off

If my aunty had bollocks etc we would have a moderate centrist government

It's all very well people not liking starmer and I would have preferred someone else but did corbyn win an election ?

Never mind percentage of vote and oh at least he was a socialist ?

The world is full of dead left wing politicians who sat by talking about the good old days whilst the Tories were in government

You can stick that up your arse

The liberals , Plaid come up with good ideas but they are never going to get elected so a soft labour party is the best those of us who can't stand the Tories are going to get

Hopefully starmer will be replaced in time by someone better but just giving up on voting just means you can whinge but it's irrelevant

This energy costs decision was not thought out and hopefully a bit of a slap but it's not the rebirth of the nazis

I watched a recent edition of the Rest is Politics podcast where Alistair Campbell said Labour have to be careful because they don’t want people to think that the economic measures they are taking are just more austerity - I don’t see how it can be viewed as anything else.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I watched a recent edition of the Rest is Politics podcast where Alistair Campbell said Labour have to be careful because they don’t want people to think that the economic measures they are taking are just more austerity - I don’t see how it can be viewed as anything else.

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Blair inherited a good economy so initially he could spend on nhs , schools etc

Starmer has been given a hospital pass , he's simply not got much wriggle room

Reeves is driving the bus

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Blair inherited a good economy so initially he could spend on nhs , schools etc

Starmer has been given a hospital pass , he's simply not got much wriggle room

Reeves is driving the bus

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America under Biden chose to spend their way out of their economic problems and I would argue that economically they are doing no worse than us - in fact, I’d say they’re doing better than us.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Blair inherited a good economy so initially he could spend on nhs , schools etc

Starmer has been given a hospital pass , he's simply not got much wriggle room

Reeves is driving the bus

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If they try and run the UK like a household budget mate, we’ll end up with the far right. They have to care for the people and not just the books. They have to. I’ve spent all day trying to sort out medical issues again. It’s exhausting. They need to give people hope. Hope about work, education, training, healthcare….life in the UK post Brexit. Because it’s shit.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I watched a recent edition of the Rest is Politics podcast where Alistair Campbell said Labour have to be careful because they don’t want people to think that the economic measures they are taking are just more austerity - I don’t see how it can be viewed as anything else.

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Exactly!

...on reflection....after today....Starmer won't last until the next election.

He has lost touch with reality.
He's telling NHS staff they won’t get a pay rise until his reforms are in place. He's telling patients they can’t have contracted nurses until his reforms are ready. F*cking reforms. All sound familiar? Same will happen with Social Security. Nothing is happening with Social Care.
Who does he expect to staff the wards and care for patients in the meantime?
...meanwhile....mass exodus of NHS staff due to Brexit...ignored. Essential medication shortages and pharmacists over-stretched...ignored.
This isn't some theoretical policy debate where people can be ignored while business consultants draft a 'reform.'
There are people relying on the NHS right now. I'm not kidding, people are just being left to f*cking die. Treating them as acceptable collateral damage aka 'let the bodies pile high' while waiting for reforms....meanwhile....fly over to see Biden and talk about Ukraine.

This tough guy Starmer act is only going to end one way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

...on reflection....after today....Starmer won't last until the next election.

He has lost touch with reality.
He's telling NHS staff they won’t get a pay rise until his reforms are in place. He's telling patients they can’t have contracted nurses until his reforms are ready. F*cking reforms. All sound familiar? Same will happen with Social Security. Nothing is happening with Social Care.
Who does he expect to staff the wards and care for patients in the meantime?
...meanwhile....mass exodus of NHS staff due to Brexit...ignored. Essential medication shortages and pharmacists over-stretched...ignored.
This isn't some theoretical policy debate where people can be ignored while business consultants draft a 'reform.'
There are people relying on the NHS right now. I'm not kidding, people are just being left to f*cking die. Treating them as acceptable collateral damage aka 'let the bodies pile high' while waiting for reforms....meanwhile....fly over to see Biden and talk about Ukraine.

This tough guy Starmer act is only going to end one way.

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The nhs staff on radio 4 this afternoon seemed to be on board with the idea of root and branch change

If we had the Tories in the cuts to nhs , care , housing , education would be even worse

It's the best of a bad bunch

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

If they try and run the UK like a household budget mate, we’ll end up with the far right. They have to care for the people and not just the books. They have to. I’ve spent all day trying to sort out medical issues again. It’s exhausting. They need to give people hope. Hope about work, education, training, healthcare….life in the UK post Brexit. Because it’s shit.

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It is shit but the Tories would have been far worse

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You can't do anything without power

And even if you get power you will end up breaking promises and pissing people off

If my aunty had bollocks etc we would have a moderate centrist government

It's all very well people not liking starmer and I would have preferred someone else but did corbyn win an election ?

Never mind percentage of vote and oh at least he was a socialist ?

The world is full of dead left wing politicians who sat by talking about the good old days whilst the Tories were in government

You can stick that up your arse

The liberals , Plaid come up with good ideas but they are never going to get elected so a soft labour party is the best those of us who can't stand the Tories are going to get

Hopefully starmer will be replaced in time by someone better but just giving up on voting just means you can whinge but it's irrelevant

This energy costs decision was not thought out and hopefully a bit of a slap but it's not the rebirth of the nazis

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I have absolutely no idea what this reply has to do with my initial post. It certainly doesn't address a single issue I raised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You can't do anything without power

And even if you get power you will end up breaking promises and pissing people off

If my aunty had bollocks etc we would have a moderate centrist government

It's all very well people not liking starmer and I would have preferred someone else but did corbyn win an election ?

Never mind percentage of vote and oh at least he was a socialist ?

The world is full of dead left wing politicians who sat by talking about the good old days whilst the Tories were in government

You can stick that up your arse

The liberals , Plaid come up with good ideas but they are never going to get elected so a soft labour party is the best those of us who can't stand the Tories are going to get

Hopefully starmer will be replaced in time by someone better but just giving up on voting just means you can whinge but it's irrelevant

This energy costs decision was not thought out and hopefully a bit of a slap but it's not the rebirth of the nazis

---

A good set of comments here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You can't do anything without power

And even if you get power you will end up breaking promises and pissing people off

If my aunty had bollocks etc we would have a moderate centrist government

It's all very well people not liking starmer and I would have preferred someone else but did corbyn win an election ?

Never mind percentage of vote and oh at least he was a socialist ?

The world is full of dead left wing politicians who sat by talking about the good old days whilst the Tories were in government

You can stick that up your arse

The liberals , Plaid come up with good ideas but they are never going to get elected so a soft labour party is the best those of us who can't stand the Tories are going to get

Hopefully starmer will be replaced in time by someone better but just giving up on voting just means you can whinge but it's irrelevant

This energy costs decision was not thought out and hopefully a bit of a slap but it's not the rebirth of the nazis

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I have absolutely no idea what this reply has to do with my initial post. It certainly doesn't address a single issue I raised.

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More a response to CN probably, who’s ripped up his membership card. God knows who he voted for now but they will never get within 1000 miles of being able to DO anything.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I have absolutely no idea what this reply has to do with my initial post. It certainly doesn't address a single issue I raised.

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Your post was a criticism of the labour party for moving to the right and suggested corbyn was " OK "

The political reality is that having party conferences and talking a good game is very romantic but won't win elections

Thatcher and the Tories during the 80s and 90s won 18 years of power because labour had weak leadership and most importantly the opposition was split

Labour , Liberals , Plaid , etc etc

The sooner a moderate middle ground party is formed to sweep up the centre , the better

Loads of middle ground Tories would vote for this too and the blue meanies could be kept out permanently

Until that happens all the back stabbing will continue and labour will always be trying to be electable and not socialist etc etc

I would drop socialism , nationalism and all the other cobblers and just get on with it

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Your post was a criticism of the labour party for moving to the right and suggested corbyn was " OK "

I would drop socialism , nationalism and all the other cobblers and just get on with it

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Already been done. You've got your wish. You've got Starmerism. The man who stands for.....?????????

....it's easier to get Taylor Swift and Oasis tickets than it is to get a GP appointment for a serious illness in the UK. We don't need more platitudes from any government of any colour and we certainly don't need to pay masses in consultancy fees for three years to come up with an NHS reform document. Labour needed to hit the ground running regarding this. They needed to have announced a credible plan from day one. They had plenty of time to formulate one before gaining power. That's how planning and logistics works. It's called leadership.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Already been done. You've got your wish. You've got Starmerism. The man who stands for.....?????????

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We will only get my wish when there is an official moderate left of centre anti tory party

As it is it's like ferrets scrapping in a bag

It's even more important now the tory vote has split to reform

It's an open goal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

We will only get my wish when there is an official moderate left of centre anti tory party

As it is it's like ferrets scrapping in a bag

It's even more important now the tory vote has split to reform

It's an open goal

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Fair point. :thumbup:

Edit: I don't know if you or anyone else has picked up on my dislike of Starmer? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Fair point. :thumbup:

Edit: I don't know if you or anyone else has picked up on my dislike of Starmer? :hehe:

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I don't like starmer , cooper , kendall etc

Yvette Cooper is like an annoying sixth former

But they are a better option than braverman , Patel, jenrick etc , in my opinion

But I would prefer something else

There are enough decent mps in the labour , liberals, greens etc and soft Tories....Ken Clarke , Dominic Grieve , Douglas hurd types ....to form a decent moderate government

The far left will call a party like this tory lite but they can keep whistling from their armchairs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

First off, it's worth noting that Labour didn't win the last election by persuading lots of voters to change their vote and vote for them. They didn't sweep to power as Blair did in 1997, under a promise of making things better.

In the recent history of the party, a socialist leader forced a hung parliament, was then savaged by the media who first laughed at him and then realised people supported him. Labour were trounced by Boris Johnson in a popularity contest and looked at how to change. Labour believed it needed to take over the middle ground again, believing that policies that were more right wing were what the public wanted. They have adopted some form of mild Conservatism as a result. In the last decade, socialism has become a word to avoid, despite many socialist policies being popular with many voters. Labour has lost votes on the left side of the political spectrum, while in the last election, parties on the left have grown in support. There probably has been a small swing of Tory voters who voted Labour, though many decided to go with Reform. We have a situation where the left feel left out by Labour, while the right feel left out by the Tories, but many voters have arguably gone with one or the other often to stop the other lot!

I notice that immigration is now the most important issue overall for voters. I have lost count of the number of older people who are up in arms about losing winter fuel payments and are demanding an end to the all the handouts for the "boat people" instead. They believe all these immigrants are flooding the country for all of our freebies, a belief quickly destroyed by scrutiny of the facts, but facts don't matter to people that much any more, neither are any political parties interested in educating people about immigration. Reform won't take long to jump on the bandwagon here - a simple promise to restore those allowances to everyone and a promise to end immigration will see lots of older people looking at them as a viable alternative. Of course, Reform can promise what they want at the moment as they have no chance of power, but Labour have scored an own goal here.

It's worth noting again that, while socialism has been turned into a dirty word, Labour's purge on socialist MPs over the last couple of years has ensured that the recent amendment on the winter fuel payments didn't pass. My local MP was a socialist who would have voted to keep the payments, but our new MP after boundary changes, a centrist, voted to stop them. Would the recent amendments have passed a few years ago? Possibly yes.

I also notice that more people seem to be talking more about the huge wages and bonuses bosses of energy companies and so on are getting and the dialogue about the wealthiest getting wealthier while average working people having less and less to spend will grow. Eventually that will become another issue where some will say enough is enough. The current Labour party has distanced itself from that argument.

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I think you are spot on with the final paragraph. Labour will need to at least make it look like the burden isn't solely placed on 'ordinary folk' to fix the problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

...on reflection....after today....Starmer won't last until the next election.

He has lost touch with reality.
He's telling NHS staff they won’t get a pay rise until his reforms are in place. He's telling patients they can’t have contracted nurses until his reforms are ready. F*cking reforms. All sound familiar? Same will happen with Social Security. Nothing is happening with Social Care.
Who does he expect to staff the wards and care for patients in the meantime?
...meanwhile....mass exodus of NHS staff due to Brexit...ignored. Essential medication shortages and pharmacists over-stretched...ignored.
This isn't some theoretical policy debate where people can be ignored while business consultants draft a 'reform.'
There are people relying on the NHS right now. I'm not kidding, people are just being left to f*cking die. Treating them as acceptable collateral damage aka 'let the bodies pile high' while waiting for reforms....meanwhile....fly over to see Biden and talk about Ukraine.

This tough guy Starmer act is only going to end one way.

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I think a couple of important things have happened as part of this report into the NHS.

1) An acknowledgement that despite an above inflation increase in funding (something that the previous government was always keen to talk about), what we spend on healthcare is lagging further behind other similar countries.

2) An indication that there could be a push back on this narrative that any spending on non-frontline staff in the NHS is wasted money. I can't remember when that became a popular view but it has led to a complete mess of a service.

It can't be fixed overnight and yes there are real world consequences to that but I think the grown up thing to do is what they are doing. The big question for me is, when the bill comes in whether they will actually be willing to invest in whatever a modern NHS looks like. Retention of staff, tech/analysis/systems and a care system that frees up beds will all cost a lot of money up front but will save money in the future.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

If we had the Tories in the cuts to nhs , care , housing , education would be even worse.

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The Tories aren't in, your lot are.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The Tories aren't in, your lot are.

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I know

That's why I said if the Tories were in , it would be far worse

Feck in hell

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I think a couple of important things have happened as part of this report into the NHS.

1) An acknowledgement that despite an above inflation increase in funding (something that the previous government was always keen to talk about), what we spend on healthcare is lagging further behind other similar countries.

2) An indication that there could be a push back on this narrative that any spending on non-frontline staff in the NHS is wasted money. I can't remember when that became a popular view but it has led to a complete mess of a service.

It can't be fixed overnight and yes there are real world consequences to that but I think the grown up thing to do is what they are doing. The big question for me is, when the bill comes in whether they will actually be willing to invest in whatever a modern NHS looks like. Retention of staff, tech/analysis/systems and a care system that frees up beds will all cost a lot of money up front but will save money in the future.

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Some interesting points there Eric. I will give them some thought and reply properly as there are a few things that I'm particularly interested in. I do acknowledge that my deep dislike and distrust of Starmer creates a red mist of prejudice but I'm trying (really trying) to be more balanced. This wasn't a good week though as a load of NHS related issues were affecting me personally so I've been a bit snarky.