Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
There's little good about gross inequality, just as there is little good about absolute equality. In that sense a growing number of billionaires isn't a good thing.
Their reasoning behind it is highly highly questionable though and really does undermine the report. Colonialism, racism, empire etc. These happened hundreds of years ago. It doesn't account for the rapid increases in inequality in recent decades and it's a highly dubious analysis that wouldnt solve it. It's guff and it annoys me cos it doesn't change anything.
What has changed is technology has supercharged globalisation which has supercharged inequality.
Think about it. We used to have small building societies and banks in each region in each country. Slowly swallowed up by giants. We used to all buy local newspapers, now we largely get the news via a handful of social media companies. We used to hang over a fiver, now millions enrich finance companies every time they tap their card. We used to get a phone from British Telecom, now we pay for one from a global giant. The single market means the biggest companies in each sector in each country can just be swallowed up by bigger ones in other countries. That's the changes.
When they start actually talking about the causes of inequality rather than the political crap then we might get somewhere.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There's little good about gross inequality, just as there is little good about absolute equality. In that sense a growing number of billionaires isn't a good thing.
Their reasoning behind it is highly highly questionable though and really does undermine the report. Colonialism, racism, empire etc. These happened hundreds of years ago. It doesn't account for the rapid increases in inequality in recent decades and it's a highly dubious analysis that wouldnt solve it. It's guff and it annoys me cos it doesn't change anything.
What has changed is technology has supercharged globalisation which has supercharged inequality.
Think about it. We used to have small building societies and banks in each region in each country. Slowly swallowed up by giants. We used to all buy local newspapers, now we largely get the news via a handful of social media companies. We used to hang over a fiver, now millions enrich finance companies every time they tap their card. We used to get a phone from British Telecom, now we pay for one from a global giant. The single market means the biggest companies in each sector in each country can just be swallowed up by bigger ones in other countries. That's the changes.
When they start actually talking about the causes of inequality rather than the political crap then we might get somewhere.
Yeah I would put aside their reasoning and just look at the pure numbers and trajectory. My observation is that humans are inherently greedy, selfish and shortsighted as individuals, it is only when acting/viewing things as a collective do we seem to suppress those urges. Unfortunately the way incentives work, often the most greedy and selfish people will end up with the most money, and money = power.
I think once money blends with politics, ordinary people haven't got a hope. When massive companies sell you the things you need to survive like a roof over your head, water, warmth, food, you are their hostage and companies have one aim, increase profit. If they shift from that mantra they get swallowed up.
I think probably the answer as somebody who doesn't have the inclination to 'join them', is not to try and 'beat them' but essentially to check out, to value and find joy in things they can't sell you and disregard anything else.
Growth that doesn't affect you, and a country that is welcoming to capital and investment at the expense of ordinary people.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
Yeah it's a conundrum because at some point that basically has to pop, it's essentially imaginary.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
Socialism?
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Socialism?
black rock socialism , give us your money we're on your side ... honest
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Socialism?
Dirty word these days, the so called socialist UK Government ran for office with the slogan time for change and are, instead offering more neoliberalism and austerity and we know what that leads - just waiting for Rachel Reeves to start espousing the virtues of trickle down economics now.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
black rock socialism , give us your money we're on your side ... honest
Didn't Starmer just sell the UK to them?
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There's little good about gross inequality, just as there is little good about absolute equality. In that sense a growing number of billionaires isn't a good thing.
Their reasoning behind it is highly highly questionable though and really does undermine the report. Colonialism, racism, empire etc. These happened hundreds of years ago. It doesn't account for the rapid increases in inequality in recent decades and it's a highly dubious analysis that wouldnt solve it. It's guff and it annoys me cos it doesn't change anything.
What has changed is technology has supercharged globalisation which has supercharged inequality.
Think about it. We used to have small building societies and banks in each region in each country. Slowly swallowed up by giants. We used to all buy local newspapers, now we largely get the news via a handful of social media companies. We used to hang over a fiver, now millions enrich finance companies every time they tap their card. We used to get a phone from British Telecom, now we pay for one from a global giant. The single market means the biggest companies in each sector in each country can just be swallowed up by bigger ones in other countries. That's the changes.
When they start actually talking about the causes of inequality rather than the political crap then we might get somewhere.
Slightly off topic - though maybe not...
Ocado is valued at £3.6 BILLION It has never made a profit, nor paid a dividend. The days where share value reflected the worth, profitability of a Company have gone, it's more like Bitcoin nowadays. And of course CEO's are rewarded for share value. So close half your outlets, merge with a smaller competitor, and the share price rockets and you trouser a few £million. Meanwhile competition and choice has diminished, access to local 'units' 'disappeared' in the name of 'improving customer experience'. Borderline criminality..
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
revolution
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
Print more money and devalue the pound, a semi in Rumney will £10 million before long, and they will all be quadrillionaires.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
revolution
It's more likely to be AI surveillance and control.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Socialism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
black rock socialism , give us your money we're on your side ... honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Dirty word these days, the so called socialist UK Government ran for office with the slogan time for change and are, instead offering more neoliberalism and austerity and we know what that leads - just waiting for Rachel Reeves to start espousing the virtues of trickle down economics now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Didn't Starmer just sell the UK to them?
Starmer has called himself a progressive and a socialist, and he has refused to call himself a socialist.
He could call himself a hedgehog. It doesn’t make it so.
Starmer is not a socialist and his government is not socialist. His party still has a few socialists in it.
The Blackrock reference is a good illustration of what he is really about.
He is a centrist social democrat who sometimes leans slightly to the left of centre on social policy and spending, but more often jumps to the right and supports reaction. He is a shallow, authoritarian manager of capitalism, and a good friend of those people highlighted in Mozzer’s post.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
What do people mean when they say socialism? Like Liberalism it really does span the spectrum in terms of use of the term; National? Soviet? European post war parties? Contemporary Nordic countries? African socialism? South American? There is enormous diversity and its hard to pin down what people mean.
Same with inequality generally. You can get wildly different figures depending on whether you judge the bottom 50% v the top 1% or the bottom 20% v the top 20% etc etc.
Then you have to consider that whilst extreme inequality plainly isn't a good thing, inequality generally isn't the be all and end all. It's about absolute poverty really. Some places with terrible qualities of life are more equal than some countries with much higher qualities of life.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
What do people mean when they say socialism? Like Liberalism it really does span the spectrum in terms of use of the term; National? Soviet? European post war parties? Contemporary Nordic countries? African socialism? South American? There is enormous diversity and its hard to pin down what people mean.
Same with inequality generally. You can get wildly different figures depending on whether you judge the bottom 50% v the top 1% or the bottom 20% v the top 20% etc etc.
Then you have to consider that whilst extreme inequality plainly isn't a good thing, inequality generally isn't the be all and end all. It's about absolute poverty really. Some places with terrible qualities of life are more equal than some countries with much higher qualities of life.
There's different aspects to view this from. Plainly, British people have a better qol than a lot of people in the world, but absolute poverty is only one issue and actually stops us addressing inequality because it essentially is saying 'its fine really'. The main problem with inequality and what turns into a death spiral for an economy is hidden in phrases like 'consumer confidence' which was cited by the cbi as a barrier to success/growth. What they really mean is 'people have no money to buy our shit' but they don't want to say that because they are partly to blame for it. If you are spending all your money on necessities you aren't able to participate in the wider economy, especially if you value experiences or your own future wellbeing over products.
Re: Politics of envy or objectively unsustainable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
that's stakeholder capitalism for you
in terms of number of billionaires by country found this
US: 735
China: 495
India: 169
Germany: 126
Russia: 105
Hong Kong: 66
Italy: 64
Canada: 63
Taiwan: 52
UK: 52
Brazil: 51
Australia: 47
France: 43
Switzerland: 41
Japan: 40
on the other side of the coin
Global debt = $315.1 trillion (2024). A record amount.
Since the pandemic, global debt has increased by $54.1 trillion, up 21%
But meanwhile, we are experiencing the greatest transfer of wealth to the super-rich in history
so what's the answer :shrug:
You might find this interesting ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCusGTuXP94
