Do some Cornish people have a closer affinity with Wales than England?

My old man, born & bred in St Austell, was a proud Cornishman.

He always maintained he was Cornish rather than English ~ so too did the rest of his large family.

Married my mum in Tongwynlais and happily settled in Cardiff for rest of his life, working as a guard on the coal trains up & down the valleys.

Said that South Wales was similar to Cornwall ... so many towns & villages preceded by Tre-

Way back the early settlers of Normandy, Cornwall, Southern Ireland & Wales were the Celts.

Wish I was in St Austell tonight for the match.

Rambling on ... due to the noise from those pesky Yorkies

In my experience - no.
They're Cornish first, then English.

Perhaps you'd expect the opposite from a Celtic point of view but I'm yet to find it

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Originally Posted by Forest Green Bluebird

My old man, born & bred in St Austell, was a proud Cornishman.

He always maintained he was Cornish rather than English ~ so too did the rest of his large family.

Married my mum in Tongwynlais and happily settled in Cardiff for rest of his life, working as a guard on the coal trains up & down the valleys.

Said that South Wales was similar to Cornwall ... so many towns & villages preceded by Tre-

Way back the early settlers of Normandy, Cornwall, Southern Ireland & Wales were the Celts.

Wish I was in St Austell tonight for the match.

Rambling on ... due to the noise from those pesky Yorkies

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Probably not - but there are many places in England where people feel as disenfranchised and as poor as the people in Wales. The endless England v Wales posts on here seem to ignore such things.

In the past I have occasionally come across Cornish people that have told me of their fondness and affinity with Wales but not for a good few years.
Just like Pembrokeshire, there is a large population of people that have moved from other parts of England so I guess that would have been diluted over the years.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Probably not - but there are many places in England where people feel as disenfranchised and as poor as the people in Wales. The endless England v Wales posts on here seem to ignore such things.

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Completely agree, that's a great point you make, although are we talking division by class, not nationality?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Probably not - but there are many places in England where people feel as disenfranchised and as poor as the people in Wales. The endless England v Wales posts on here seem to ignore such things.

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The UK is likely an example of a trickle down economy and that in focussing in on London and South West that UK politician's feel that the whole of the UK gets wealthier - not most groundbreaking of observations. It would explain why the North of England (for example) feel disenfranchised also, but I do think it's different in that while Newcastle can feel ignore they won't feel their national culture is under threat at any point.

To the original point, there are probably people in Cornwall or feel connected to the Union and people in Cornwall who feel more Celtic only. This is probably quite similar to Wales so a natural connection all round.

Being born and brought up in Wales, but with Cornish mother I would say they are Cornish first. I am told by my family that they are Cornish not English. But have no real affinity to the Welsh, and would support England every time. However they are aware of their Celtic roots and language. I do feel very much at home down there and I consider it do be different from the rest of England.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

In my experience - no.
They're Cornish first, then English.

Perhaps you'd expect the opposite from a Celtic point of view but I'm yet to find it

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Definitely Cornish first with their own language similar in many ways to Welsh / Irish

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Originally Posted by cardiff55

Being born and brought up in Wales, but with Cornish mother I would say they are Cornish first. I am told by my family that they are Cornish not English. But have no real affinity to the Welsh, and would support England every time. However they are aware of their Celtic roots and language. I do feel very much at home down there and I consider it do be different from the rest of England.

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My sentiments exactly. I feel 'at home' when visiting Falmouth & St Austell where one half of my relatives lived.

My OP was not meant to be another comment in England v Wales banter.

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Originally Posted by surge

The UK is likely an example of a trickle down economy and that in focussing in on London and South West that UK politician's feel that the whole of the UK gets wealthier - not most groundbreaking of observations. It would explain why the North of England (for example) feel disenfranchised also, but I do think it's different in that while Newcastle can feel ignore they won't feel their national culture is under threat at any point.

To the original point, there are probably people in Cornwall or feel connected to the Union and people in Cornwall who feel more Celtic only. This is probably quite similar to Wales so a natural connection all round.

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I'm my lifetime I've seen prosperity grow in Cardiff, so perhaps the trickle down effect has delivered some wealth and job benefits to Wales.

My daughter's boyfriend is from St Ives, and he watched the England games wearing a f***ing England shirt!

The Cornish are a recognised minority within the EU and have the same status as the Welsh, Scots and Irish.

Going back to the OP, if the question was do the Welsh have a closer affinity to Ireland rather than England, or to Scotland rather than England, I'd expect this thread to go into meltdown.

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Originally Posted by Forest Green Bluebird

My sentiments exactly. I feel 'at home' when visiting Falmouth & St Austell where one half of my relatives lived.

My OP was not meant to be another comment in England v Wales banter.

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Despite being a Cardiffian I have lived in a number of counties in the south west and feel at home here - and I even felt at home living in Germany and Scotland. My siblings have also lived abroad and have felt at home in Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Devon, The Netherlands and Germany. There are beautiful places and people all around the UK and people's DNA is not drastically different on either side of a line drawn on a map at a particular juncture in history. It's also about what one brings to the party, as it were.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Despite being a Cardiffian I have lived in a number of counties in the south west and feel at home here - and I even felt at home living in Germany and Scotland. My siblings have also lived abroad and have felt at home in Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Devon, The Netherlands and Germany. There are beautiful places and people all around the UK and people's DNA is not drastically different on either side of a line drawn on a map at a particular juncture in history. It's also about what one brings to the party, as it were.

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Cwrw Ysgawen - Purple Moose Brewery, Porthmadog.

I'm a Cornishman born and raised there until I was 10.

The Cornish certainly see themselves as Cornish first, but many do see themselves as English second. I moved to Cardiff at a young age so I saw the contradiction in this quickly, but there has been a huge influx of people from up country into Cornwall, and with the price of property and lack of work there is a back door ethnic cleansing going on. If the local population in Cornwall isn't protected then it will end up where more people in Cornwall won't be Cornish than are.

I have a right under European law to call myself Cornish, although whenever I do this, even here in Wales it gets laughed at, and i get told 'so you're English'.

In a lot of ways the Cornish bring it on themselves though, it's one of the poorest areas within the UK but continues to return conservative MPs and although the EU is what is protecting the Cornish identity and Cornwall also gets far more money from the EU than it contributes (the UK government having backed out of is promise to spend money on protecting the Cornish language), they still voted to leave the EU.... Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by speedyblue

I'm a Cornishman born and raised there until I was 10.

The Cornish certainly see themselves as Cornish first, but many do see themselves as English second. I moved to Cardiff at a young age so I saw the contradiction in this quickly, but there has been a huge influx of people from up country into Cornwall, and with the price of property and lack of work there is a back door ethnic cleansing going on. If the local population in Cornwall isn't protected then it will end up where more people in Cornwall won't be Cornish than are.

I have a right under European law to call myself Cornish, although whenever I do this, even here in Wales it gets laughed at, and i get told 'so you're English'.

In a lot of ways the Cornish bring it on themselves though, it's one of the poorest areas within the UK but continues to return conservative MPs and although the EU is what is protecting the Cornish identity and Cornwall also gets far more money from the EU than it contributes (the UK government having backed out of is promise to spend money on protecting the Cornish language), they still voted to leave the EU.... Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind.

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Maybe they're more like the Welsh than they think!

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Originally Posted by Forest Green Bluebird

My sentiments exactly. I feel 'at home' when visiting Falmouth & St Austell where one half of my relatives lived.

My OP was not meant to be another comment in England v Wales banter.

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If I couldnt live in Cardiff or able to afford second home Falmouth it would, love the place .

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

Maybe they're more like the Welsh than they think!

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When I holidayed there and it's usual every year UKIP presence could be felt I think their philosophy is about jobs , health ,schools for own first , not purely a racism /immigration thing ,bit like the many valley mates I have, who strangely do not vote in a rightist way only when Brexit came around . One of the many mysteries of politics, which Mrs May read wrongly,.

I went there on honeymoon hundreds of years ago and I remember quite a few locals supporting Mebyon Kernew, the Cornish Independence Party.
I had assumed it was no more but it appears to be still going -
https://www.mebyonkernow.org/

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Originally Posted by Forest Green Bluebird

Way back the early settlers of Normandy, Cornwall, Southern Ireland & Wales were the Celts.

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Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

Emmetts go home

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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I'm sure they said during the World Cup that they were supporting Wales in the Euros.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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Plymouth isn't in Cornwall, and is also an EDL type town where they hate everything not English from my experience.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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Indeed. Most of us are descendants of Celts, Frisians, Jutes, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Romans (who consisted of a multitude of people from beyond way beyond Rome and what is now Italy), Normans, French and many other people's who came over from the European mainland at some juncture. Our DNA is incredibly mixed and purists are bound to be disappointed if they send off for a DNA test. (I've just done one for another reason entirely).

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Originally Posted by ken smith

Plymouth isn't in Cornwall, and is also an EDL type town where they hate everything not English from my experience.

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That's over a quarter of a million people stereotyped then.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Indeed. Most of us are descendants of Celts, Frisians, Jutes, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Romans (who consisted of a multitude of people from beyond way beyond Rome and what is now Italy), Normans, French and many other people's who came over from the European mainland at some juncture. Our DNA is incredibly mixed and purists are bound to be disappointed if they send off for a DNA test. (I've just done one for another reason entirely).

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I consider myself Welsh because I was born in Cardiff but only 2 of my great grandparents were born in Wales

Cardiff X 2
Devon X 2
Forest of Dean X 3
Worcester X 1

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

That's over a quarter of a million people stereotyped then.

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Throw in Stoke, Burnley, Bolton, Preston, Blackpool, Barnsley, Carlisle, Fleetwood, Mansfield, Chesterfield and your closer to 2 million.

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Originally Posted by Cyncoed Slumdog

I went there on honeymoon hundreds of years ago and I remember quite a few locals supporting Mebyon Kernew, the Cornish Independence Party.
I had assumed it was no more but it appears to be still going -
https://www.mebyonkernow.org/

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The answer to the question is "yes" as Mebyon Kernow have strong links with Plaid Cymru. Some of their councillors have spoken at Plaid conferences and MK's leader, Dick Cole, is friendly with many Welsh nationalists, including people who are not in Plaid Cymru. I once published a piece written by Dick Cole on my now defunct blog.

https://www.mebyonkernow.org/news/tag.php?tag=plaid cymru

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Originally Posted by Llanedeyrnblue

I consider myself Welsh because I was born in Cardiff but only 2 of my great grandparents were born in Wales

Cardiff X 2
Devon X 2
Forest of Dean X 3
Worcester X 1

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Self-identity is a fascinating subject. I remember seeing the episode of 'Who Do You Think You Are' in which the black activist and film director, who had always campaigned on 'black issues' and against any remnants of slavery, where he is informed that it is highly likely that he descended from a white slave owner.

And I remember reading in a German magazine about a guy who was born around 1945 to an unmarried mother in what became East Germany. He lived with the stigma of being illegitimate and different but embraced his identity of being part American, his mother having stated that she was raped by a GI during the war. The young lad collected as much paraphernalia about the USA as possible and even, if I remember, rightly, got hold of a beaten up old American car when he was old enough to drive. However, on her death bed (and this was after East Germany had shed the yoke of the Soviet Union) she admitted to him that the person who raped her was a Russian soldier. It is highly possible that she was reticent to point the finger at the Russians at the time.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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I thought the Celts came out of Eastern Europe and then their culture spread across the whole continent and parts of modern Turkey.

The main early cultural centres that archaeologists have explored were around the Alps - Hallstadt and La Tene from 800 to 100 BC - but that the Greeks at the time of the Trojan Wars about 1200 BC were supposedly Celts too (Iron Age warrior elites who formed the original city states).

When I was much younger it was accepted that the Celts migrated across Europe and displaced the peoples they met. More recently I think the view has changed. Most historians and archaeologists now go for the integration theory, that Iron Age warriors and traders came to Britain from the continent in fairly small numbers and were assimilated by the indigenous Bronze Age people. The culture and the language changed because the Celts were dominant, but it is unlikely there was a mass migration and displacement.

Cornish-Welsh fusion from Gwenno!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rCeygWexyA

Have visited the place for years.

Whilst it has a distinctly different vibe to other parts of England it is still very much part of England and in my experience the locals on the whole feel English but also cornish. Similarly to how a Welsh person may feel Welsh and British.

Wouldn't say they at all identify more with Wales or other celtic regions but on the whole I have found them to be very warm people and largely welcoming. Of course tourism is a huge economic driver there so they probably just want my money.

It's a beautiful place though and definitely somewhere I would be happy to live, employment issues aside.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Indeed. Most of us are descendants of Celts, Frisians, Jutes, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Romans (who consisted of a multitude of people from beyond way beyond Rome and what is now Italy), Normans, French and many other people's who came over from the European mainland at some juncture. Our DNA is incredibly mixed and purists are bound to be disappointed if they send off for a DNA test. (I've just done one for another reason entirely).

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The rural Welsh and Cornish are genetically distinct apparently: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735

It's not as if any group or tribe was homogeneous anyway. Besides being a mix themselves they would have also swallowed up other people en route and recruited them voluntarily and forcibly. They would have also procreated with females of other tribes , whether it be via rape, kidnapping, slavery or just having an awareness that the gene pool need some variety.

Romans must have been in the minority in the Roman Empire.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's not as if any group or tribe was homogeneous anyway. Besides being a mix themselves they would have also swallowed up other people en route and recruited them voluntarily and forcibly. They would have also procreated with females of other tribes , whether it be via rape, kidnapping, slavery or just having an awareness that the gene pool need some variety.

Romans must have been in the minority in the Roman Empire.

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Given that Rome itself was such a melting pot of citizens/slaves/freedmen, many from other territories, this seems likely. Many emperors weren't Roman Italians either.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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Plymouth isn't in Cornwall though!

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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"The Celts weren't a homogeneous bunch despite the common roots of their languages; the Cornish are more genetically distant from the Welsh and the Scots than they are to certain English people."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/cornish.html

There is no such thing as a Celtic gene. The Celts were just a group of people across most of Europe that shared similar languages and culture. The name Celt came from Greek writers who described this particular group. The word Gal and derivatives are words which describe areas where this group settled such Galicia (Now part of Spain), Galatia (now part of Turkey) and of course Gaul. They also give the root to the word Gaelic/ Gallic etc.


Of interest, Paris is named after a Celtic tribe, as is Belgium. The names of Celtic tribes are also obvious in the names Kent, Scotland and Cornwall.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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I think they/we came from different areas. I think the idea is that the celts in Britain and Ireland came from the Alpes....Switzerland that way. I think there might have been Iberian celts as well. But that would have been a few thousand years, if not more before the saxons and angles came over 'ere. A lot of welsh people are decendants of the orginal inhabitants of the island some 10,000 years ago after the last ice age.

There have been a number of different genetic studies (genome/mitochondrial) that have shown the Welsh especially to be markedly different other parts of the Island. That obviously depends on the part of Wales you are from though. West and North have obviously had fewer immigrants than the South East.

Before that India.

Before that Africa.