Dont allow democracy die ??

Darren Jones, the Labour MP for Bristol North West, told protesters in the city that people should take to the streets to demonstrate against the prime minister and not allow “democracy to die”.

Wasn't there a democratic vote and parliament actually stopped that due process happening.

Ironic , some Labour voters might find this a very bitter pill to swallow.

It appears big city Labour v poorer area Labour , is developing .

Next election will be very intresting.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Darren Jones, the Labour MP for Bristol North West, told protesters in the city that people should take to the streets to demonstrate against the prime minister and not allow “democracy to die”.

Wasn't there a democratic vote and parliament actually stopped that due process happening.

Ironic , some Labour voters might find this a very bitter pill to swallow.

It appears big city Labour v poorer area Labour , is developing .

Next election will be very intresting.

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If it's a choice between Parliamentary democracy and a glorified Opinion Poll then it's a no brainer surely Shirley?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

If it's a choice between Parliamentary democracy and a glorified Opinion Poll then it's a no brainer surely Shirley?

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My point is not about opinion polls its about actual democratic votes.

In 2016 we had a democratic vote .

Recently we had European elections which suggested there is still a hunger too leave.

It is suggested even amongst some Labour voters Boris decesion to suspend parliamentary business to get Brexit done and not interfered with is popular.

My OP point is, a Labour MP and it 's leader are talking about undemocratic behaviour, I personally feel over the last two years ,they with others have behaved equally un - democratic in blocking, amending bills and votes in the same way to kick the can down the road to an election , rather than abide or seek a decision even many of thier voters wanted (too leave )

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Originally Posted by life on mars

My point is not about opinion polls its about actual democratic votes.

In 2016 we had a democratic vote .

Recently we had European elections which suggested there is still a hunger too leave.

It is suggested even amongst some Labour voters Boris decesion to suspend parliamentary business to get Brexit done and not interfered with is popular.

My OP point is, a Labour MP and it 's leader are talking about undemocratic behaviour, I personally feel over the last two years ,they with others have behaved equally un - democratic in blocking, amending bills and votes in the same way to kick the can down the road to an election , rather than abide or seek a decision even many of thier voters wanted (too leave )

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You don't think protesting is democratic behaviour? You don't think voting on the outcome of bills with hopefully the best interests of the country in mind is democratic behaviour?

Yet you're all for Boris getting a no deal Brexit all costs.

It's clearly still Labour bad/Tories good for you, no matter how badly you try to say that you don't think that way.

I don't want to hear about democracy from people who've been using every low trick to thwart it for three years.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

If it's a choice between Parliamentary democracy and a glorified Opinion Poll then it's a no brainer surely Shirley?

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Hardly an exercise in Parliamentary democracy to spend three years misusing the rules to stop the implementation of a public vote in which Parliament " sought the directions of the electorate ".
It's the cheats within PW itself who have jepordised Parliamentary Democracy, not the electorate who seek to hold them to account for their malfeasance.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

My point is not about opinion polls its about actual democratic votes.

In 2016 we had a democratic vote .

Recently we had European elections which suggested there is still a hunger too leave.

It is suggested even amongst some Labour voters Boris decesion to suspend parliamentary business to get Brexit done and not interfered with is popular.

My OP point is, a Labour MP and it 's leader are talking about undemocratic behaviour, I personally feel over the last two years ,they with others have behaved equally un - democratic in blocking, amending bills and votes in the same way to kick the can down the road to an election , rather than abide or seek a decision even many of thier voters wanted (too leave )

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Mine too! Our Parliamentary Democracy honed over centuries will always trump the quack 2016 Opinion Poll: Simples

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Hardly an exercise in Parliamentary democracy to spend three years misusing the rules to stop the implementation of a public vote in which Parliament " sought the directions of the electorate ".
It's the cheats within PW itself who have jepordised Parliamentary Democracy, not the electorate who seek to hold them to account for their malfeasance.

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There's been no misuse of rules. The problem was the quack 2016 Opinion Poll which has only served to throw this country into political chaos and engender deep division. My guess is that if some alien civilization is scrutinizing us from afar they will have learnt a valuable lesson how not to implement democracy.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

My point is not about opinion polls its about actual democratic votes.

In 2016 we had a democratic vote .

Recently we had European elections which suggested there is still a hunger too leave.

It is suggested even amongst some Labour voters Boris decesion to suspend parliamentary business to get Brexit done and not interfered with is popular.

My OP point is, a Labour MP and it 's leader are talking about undemocratic behaviour, I personally feel over the last two years ,they with others have behaved equally un - democratic in blocking, amending bills and votes in the same way to kick the can down the road to an election , rather than abide or seek a decision even many of thier voters wanted (too leave )

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Mine too! Our Parliamentary Democracy honed over centuries will always trump the quack 2016 Opinion Poll: Simples

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

I don't want to hear about democracy from people who've been using every low trick to thwart it for three years.

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Yeah bloody sneaky remainers convincing the erg to vote against the deal.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Mine too! Our Parliamentary Democracy honed over centuries will always trump the quack 2016 Opinion Poll: Simples

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They're separate things, and a properly convened referrendum isn't a "quack opinion poll".

What's more, I guarantee that you're on the losing side of this argument ultimately.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

I don't want to hear about democracy from people who've been using every low trick to thwart it for three years.

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Talking of "low tricks",

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...different-way/

I would feel much better about this whole thing if the Referendum had been conducted in a manner which generally gave people the information they needed to arrive at a properly considered decision regarding our future. Instead, it was lowest common denominator stuff on both sides which, if there was any justice regarding the quality of debate and the arguments put forward, should have seen the Referendum ending in a 0-0 draw.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

They're separate things, and a properly convened referrendum isn't a "quack opinion poll".

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Not just separate; worse than that: mutually exclusive. Therein lies the problem. QED!

Protesters using democracy to protest against democracy :sherlock:

Nice and simple as I see it :

There was a vote not an opionon poll that delivered a leave result .

Biggest voting turn out for a long time (not a poll)

On 29 March 17 the (UK) invoked Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union which began the member state's withdrawal triggered in Jan 17, by Corbyn who announced that Labour would impose a three-line whip to force Labour MPs in favour of triggering Article 50.

Then parliament simply delayed the UK departure by having .
endless Brexit debates and votes too disrupt the result to leave .

Opposition parties could have supported May's withdrawal deal.

As a result of not backing May's deal the impact was known to (all )

Boris into power enhancers a no deal exit .(which all knew)

Is that what they wanted anyway ??

Back to the OP , people voted to leave , MP,s dont agree how the duck is that democratic????????????????.


PS I hate the Tories and have always voted Labour throughout my life , they have let me down since JC and his like arrived and I no longer reognise the party I supported and belonged too for the last 40 year's.

Labour have put Boris in power no one else .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Nice and simple as I see it :

There was a vote not an opionon poll that delivered a leave result .

Biggest voting turn out for a long time (not a poll)

On 29 March 17 the (UK) invoked Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union which began the member state's withdrawal triggered in Jan 17, by Corbyn who announced that Labour would impose a three-line whip to force Labour MPs in favour of triggering Article 50.

Then parliament simply delayed the UK departure by having .
endless Brexit debates and votes too disrupt the result to leave .

Opposition parties could have supported May's withdrawal deal.

As a result of not backing May's deal the impact was known to (all )

Boris into power enhancers a no deal exit .(which all knew)

Is that what they wanted anyway ??

Back to the OP , people voted to leave , MP,s dont agree how the duck is that democratic????????????????.


PS I hate the Tories and have always voted Labour throughout my life , they have let me down since JC and his like arrived and I no longer reognise the party I supported and belonged too for the last 40 year's.

Labour have put Boris in power no one else .

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1. It was a glorified opinion poll which could have produced different results at different times. It's not cast in stone like some football result. It was purely advisory and some MPs chose to view it that way. Correctly in my opinion.

2. What is happening now amounts to a full blown assault on democracy.

3. How has JC let you down? Did he not select you for a top job maybe?

Virtually everyone I've encountered who banged on about British democracy - how precious it is why it must be preserved - also chose, when challenged, to somehow defend the anti-democratic office of the British head of state so absurdly hypocritical were they. The real hardcore drones retreated to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" as a last-ditch Maginot line defence. David Icke maintains that many people, perhaps the majority, merely repeat propaganda without bothering to rationalise the arrant bullshit they spout, and it's easy to agree with him.

I've viewed two dozen or more images of 'stop the coup' protests that took place yesterday at various UK towns and cities and didn't spot a non-white face amongst any of them. An identical demographic appear at Extinction Rebellion demos.

Parliament also voted heavily in favour to allow the referendum to take place think it was 6 to 1 in favour.

The wording on the referendum voting paper said leave or remain and followed by (the government will deliver your decesion )

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Parliament also voted heavily in favour to allow the referendum to take place think it was 6 to 1 in favour.

The wording on the referendum voting paper said leave or remain and followed by (the government will deliver your decesion )

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And the past thirty eight months has proved how totally inadequate and unfit for purpose that wording was.

Intresting development and welcome ,deselection is such a poor behaviour for being brave abouts one's view


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/unit...r-brexit-deal/

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And the past thirty eight months has proved how totally inadequate and unfit for purpose that wording was.

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Yes and how sad that is , shame on all you MP'S for your lack of loyalty to its people .

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

1. It was a glorified opinion poll which could have produced different results at different times. It's not cast in stone like some football result. It was purely advisory and some MPs chose to view it that way. Correctly in my opinion.

2. What is happening now amounts to a full blown assault on democracy.

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Talk about rewriting history!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXE

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Screaming &#39;Fascists out!&#39; while trying to physically prevent your political opponents from demonstrating...<br><br>The irony. <a href="https://t.co/A9lv6ZoMqv">pic.twitter.com/A9lv6ZoMqv</a></p>&mdash; Paul Embery (@PaulEmbery) <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1167100123891097600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 29, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Valerie Vaz, Labour’s Shadow Commons Leader, has called for prorogation at least three times since May.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Screaming &#39;Fascists out!&#39; while trying to physically prevent your political opponents from demonstrating...<br><br>The irony. <a href="https://t.co/A9lv6ZoMqv">pic.twitter.com/A9lv6ZoMqv</a></p>&mdash; Paul Embery (@PaulEmbery) <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1167100123891097600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 29, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Fascist out.
Federalist in .
Oohh hang on we hate both .
Peppa Pigg in they shout .


Where do they keep all their other, rent a mob banners, like save the planet , hug a tree ,down with Trump, boo too Royalist .

Must have a big garage

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Yes and how sad that is , shame on all you MP'S for your lack of loyalty to its people .

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So, besides a majority of those who bothered to vote saying they wanted to Leave, what was the "will of the people"? No deal? A Norway type deal? A Canada type deal? Leave, but stay in the single market?

I wouldn't expect any one to read all of this now;-

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ide_the_EU.pdf

but it is a Government document produced in 2016 that outlines the alternative approaches open to the UK in the event of a Leave vote in the forthcoming referendum. It runs to forty seven pages and just a quick glance through it shows the size of the task facing those who had to bring about the departure.

It's simple to deduce what those voting remain wanted because it was, essentially, a vote for the status quo, but how on earth people can claim that all those voting Leave were happy for us to do so with no deal is beyond me. There is a poll taken just before the vote appearing in another thread which, very surprisingly, you and one or two others show no interest in, proving that, clearly, most people intending to vote Leave were not expecting us to do so without a deal - presumably, they were of the opinion that we would go having signed up for one of the alternatives outlined in the document I've put a link to.

What has happened is that, although the majority of MPs are remainers, there is nothing to indicate that there is a majority who want to remain at all costs - my guess is that the majority believe the result of the Referendum is should be honoured. The problem arises though that the number of alternative options available to them makes it hard for agreement to be reached on the best way to do so and, in that respect, they are surely only mirroring the thoughts of millions of leave voters who would have made their decision with a a preferred method of leaving in mind.

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, leaving with no deal was always painted as a worst case scenario in the event of leave winning, but now we appear to be heading towards a solution which three years ago only the zealots were advocating - it's clear that the the large majority of MPs don't want this to happen and so why shouldn't they do all that they can to prevent it from doing so?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Fascist out.
Federalist in .
Oohh hang on we hate both .
Peppa Pigg in they shout .


Where do they keep all their other, rent a mob banners, like save the planet , hug a tree ,down with Trump, boo too Royalist .

Must have a big garage

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Wrote your criticism of Boris like you say you were going to? Or is it another day of Daily Express readers comment type outrage?

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Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2

Wrote your criticism of Boris like you say you were going to? Or is it another day of Daily Express readers comment type outrage?

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Fascist outrage report

I wouldn't let the average person questioned about Brexit in TV voxpop interviews on the street run my household budget, never mind the fate of the country at large.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I wouldn't let the average person questioned about Brexit in TV voxpop interviews on the street run my household budget, never mind the fate of the country at large.

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So you reject democracy. At least you're honest about it.
Who's going to decide which people are clever enough to have a say ? Um ... It's you isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

So you reject democracy. At least you're honest about it.
Who's going to decide which people are clever enough to have a say ? Um ... It's you isn't it ?

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Wild idea but maybe we could have a big vote where each area picks somebody, maybe call it a general election.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Wild idea but maybe we could have a big vote where each area picks somebody, maybe call it a general election.

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An electoral college then ?

The referendum was a straight question though, Eric, not an election

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

The referendum was a straight question though, Eric, not an election

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It was a glorified opinion poll and tantamount to subverting the sovereignty of Parliament via an attempt to short circuit it. That quivering fool Cameron has a lot to answer for.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

So you reject democracy. At least you're honest about it.
Who's going to decide which people are clever enough to have a say ? Um ... It's you isn't it ?

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If you weren't so bloated with egotism and self-importance you may have noted other messages I have posted hitherto stating that very few people, me included, knew enough of the ramifications of Brexit to vote on the matter with any authority - and many of the people interviewed on the street by the media seem to back up their views on either side of the debate with nothing more than vacuous slogans.

Best not misrepresent my views RB (/WB?) and accuse me of a superiority complex that you undoubtably have yourself. In spades.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

It was a glorified opinion poll and tantamount to subverting the sovereignty of Parliament via an attempt to short circuit it. That quivering fool Cameron has a lot to answer for.

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Yet, they had a debate and a vote on whether to " seek directions" from the electorate and did so.
It wasn't an opinion poll, it was a properly convened electoral process in which only registered electors could take part.
Parliament had every opportunity to prevent the referrendum when they debated it, but when they passed it, they passed the decision to the people.

You might not like the outcome , but it is a fact, and the sovereignty of parliament certainly does not extend to changing its mind after it has " called an election" because it dislikes the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

If you weren't so bloated with egotism and self-importance you may have noted other messages I have posted hitherto stating that very few people, me included, knew enough of the ramifications of Brexit to vote on the matter with any authority - and many of the people interviewed on the street by the media seem to back up their views on either side of the debate with nothing more than vacuous slogans.

Best not misrepresent my views RB (/WB?) and accuse me of a superiority complex that you undoubtably have yourself. In spades.

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Again with the WB crap !
Whatever I think of my own abilities as compared to some , which is irrelevant anyway so I'm not going to debate it, I'm not suggesting that I should have any more than one vote, or that my opinions - no matter how correct I hold them to be - should outweigh the majority opinion.
I was horrified when Blair was elected in 1997 and correctly predicted many of the disasters this would lead to, but it never occurred to me that anyone should try to block or reverse it.

The truth is that very few people understand much about the issues they vote for on this issue or a general election either, but that's no reason to doubt the democratic process . The only alternative is war when you really come down to reality, and this is why intelligent men understand the importance of respecting and abiding by it.

Incidentally, this ego battle you seem to be waging is stupid and pointless. No one here knows enough about anyone else to judge them and the conclusions would be meaningless anyway. That all adds up to a total of nothing, so it's not worth consideration in what is actually a very important issue in real terms.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Again with the WB crap !
Whatever I think of my own abilities as compared to some , which is irrelevant anyway so I'm not going to debate it, I'm not suggesting that I should have any more than one vote, or that my opinions - no matter how correct I hold them to be - should outweigh the majority opinion.
I was horrified when Blair was elected in 1997 and correctly predicted many of the disasters this would lead to, but it never occurred to me that anyone should try to block or reverse it.

The truth is that very few people understand much about the issues they vote for on this issue or a general election either, but that's no reason to doubt the democratic process . The only alternative is war when you really come down to reality, and this is why intelligent men understand the importance of respecting and abiding by it.

Incidentally, this ego battle you seem to be waging is stupid and pointless. No one here knows enough about anyone else to judge them and the conclusions would be meaningless anyway. That all adds up to a total of nothing, so it's not worth consideration in what is actually a very important issue in real terms.

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Ego battle that I am waging? What ego battle is that? I think you have me confused with someone else as I don't engage with your posts and only responded to your stupid reply to mine. And your posts ooze ego, that's for sure. Superior education, superior judgement, independent thinker blah, blah, blah...
I have managed to have sensible conversations over the years with everyone except WB/you. Pity you can't say the same aboput your interactions with other posters in the weeks/years you have been on here.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Yet, they had a debate and a vote on whether to " seek directions" from the electorate and did so.
It wasn't an opinion poll, it was a properly convened electoral process in which only registered electors could take part.
Parliament had every opportunity to prevent the referrendum when they debated it, but when they passed it, they passed the decision to the people.

You might not like the outcome , but it is a fact, and the sovereignty of parliament certainly does not extend to changing its mind after it has " called an election" because it dislikes the outcome.

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A properly convened official electoral process which resulted in one side fined for illegality.

Hmmmmm