https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/107219...m-at-its-core/
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Some would say that antagonising natural born UK people is not the best way to win the leadership. What do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
This is clearly true.Quote:
I think part of the Brexit campaign, and part of the undertone of Brexit, from some politicians, Nigel Farage and others, had racism at its core and its heart
Clive Lewis is right in what he said, but maybe not right in the way his words were paraphrased and commented on by Sun editors and that champion of the people Iain Duncan-Smith. I agree with everything he is quoted as saying. especially this:
'I think part of the Brexit campaign, and part of the undertone of Brexit, from some politicians, Nigel Farage and others, had racism at its core and its heart.
'They used it as a mechanism to divide our communities, to divide our country.'
That isn't to say that racism was the main reason why people voted Brexit - he doesn't say that - but it was part of the campaign and it became normalised by the language of many leading Brexit campaigners.
I don't think he will end up on the Labour leadership ballot, but he is a very interesting politician. He has ideas and speaks well. Unlike a lot of MPs he thinks and talks on his feet - and answers the bloody question!
What a load of tosh. Where the heck does he get this idea that "people of colour" woke up with a sense of dread the day after the referendum? I'm sure lots of people woke up with a sense of dread that day, regardless of their colour!
It's quite funny how immigration went from being the single biggest topic in the pre Referendum debate to the subject which no one really wanted to talk about once the No vote was secured. It goes back to that Will Self quote about not everyone who voted Leave being a racist, but all racists voted Leave which Mark Francois had so much trouble understanding. The votes of such people were courted by the likes of Farage in particular and Clive Lewis is not wrong in saying that, but I hope these quotes were not used in the contect of his leadership bid, because I feel Labour needs to move on from Brexit now.
Lewis didn't make it through to the next round of the ballot, but Emily Thornberry did - unfortunately, Richard Burgon scraped into the next stage in the Deputy leader competition;-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51089217
Hasn't Em's displayed some disparaging white van driver and Brexit voter opinions that may hinder a love in up north ?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Lets prey they select a non London social elite resident , and one in tune with the real world .
Kent isn't 'up north'!Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30139832
I can't speak for the other 17 million people who voted to leave in the referendum but I am not a racist unless by that you include anyone who would like to see no further immigrants coming to the UK unless they have a pre-existing, verifiable job offer, based on a points system, so that we take in those who will be able to make a positive contribution, be they fruit pickers, brain surgeons, bus drivers or whatever else we need. The exception would be refugees from war-torn places like Syria with a cap on numbers as agreed within the U.N. like the VPRS scheme whereby each country pledges to take a set number over a period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
However I must add that, for me, that was a secondary reason for voting leave. The main reason by a country mile was the bloated, fat-cat, gravy train, inefficient, corrupt, bottomless money pit that the EU has become. Oh yes, the EU "generously" gives grants for infrastructure projects i.e some of our money back for projects which they approve! I am old enough to remember the Common Market and that worked well, but the pendulum has swung too far the other way now and as reform appears to be impossible, it's time to say goodbye I'm afraid.
You have covered the Labour Party gravy train, what's your thoughts on the Tories :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
It probably does but a lot of the consequence of Brexit will be felt over the next 2-5 years so moving on completely from pointing that out isn't responsible leadership, and fearing yet more Brexit fatigue isn't the best reason to act that way. If the accepted narrative becomes that the issues we may face going forward are no longer to do with Brexit then isn't it the same as accepting that austerity was a result of Labour run finances rather than global banking crisis? Boris Johnson comes out and says no one else did more to help bankers and no one cares because most still believe it was a labour government responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I'm not referring to any particular party in my post. Apart from the MEPs themselves there are the unelected commissioners, of which the Kinnocks are an example, where the expression "gravy train" hardly begins to describe the excesses. Take a read of this article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/k...rain-xcxbdkx6rQuote:
Originally Posted by Nelsonca61
Note: there are 28 commissioners!
In the EU parliament/commission there are 32,000 civil servants and 751 MEP’s. It costs 1.8 billion euros to run, equivalent to 2.3 million euros per MEP.
12 times a year the EU parliament moves to Strasbourg at a cost of 200 million euros. It involves moving then providing accommodation for 4000 people with all the associated documentation/files from Brussels just for 4 days, 12 times a year.
This is why I want out of the EU - the obscene extravagance of it all!
Presumably you want Wales out of the UK too given the obscene extravagance of the houses of parliament and associated nonsense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
With respect we are talking a whole magnitude of scale difference there. If someone suggests we move Parliament twelve times a year to Manchester to fit in with the Northern Powerhouse scenario then I may agree with you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
The whole expenses scandal would never have occurred if I had been in charge of approving MP's expenses. During my working life I worked for several large companies and travelled abroad a lot for business purposes. In all that time I could account for literally every penny I spent in the form of proper receipts, and expenses were limited strictly to travel costs and subsistence - that's it. I expected the people who worked for me to do the same and they knew it. There were no "daily allowances", clothing allowances, entertainment allowances, or duck house allowances.
How timely this report on John Bercow's expenses in relation to the posts above!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51109296
He would not have got away with that on my watch!
Taxi to Nottingham is obscene but the rest needs to be seen in context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Common's and Lord's cost 600 million a year to run. EU parliament operates for not far off 10 times as many people. You can call that a whole new magnitude of scale if you like but I won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Rather than MPs move out of the 'palace of westminster' and away from the pomp and ceremony we will instead spend multiple billions renovating it.
I find it worrying how many Christian's voted brexit
I shouldn't be surprised but I do find it worrying
Love thy neighbour , unless hes an immigrant
No doubt about it a large number of brexit voters were racists , we want our country back idiots , they dont like being called racist but that's what a significant proportion of them areQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Are you a person of colour ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Because unless you are , you cant possibly say
You certainly didn't wake up that day with a sense of dread , I bet you were dancing in church that night as brexit is exactly what you wanted so no dread for you
If you read my post above you will see why I voted for Brexit. Yes, my Christian belief influenced my decision because the scandalous waste of public money supporting an unaccountable gravy train organisation is a moral issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Love thy neighbour: A lawyer asked Jesus the question "who is my neighbour?" In response, Jesus tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, the conclusion of which is that the neighbour in the parable is the man who shows mercy to the injured man—that is, the Samaritan.
As it happens I know a little bit about immigrants as I formed a local community group in my town which sponsored a Syrian refugee family to come to live in safety in Wales, so you don't need to lecture me about loving my neighbour thanks. I have also worked amongst some of the poorest people in Uganda and Malawi and unless I am mistaken they were people of colour too. You are free to express your prejudiced views against Christians of course, but you need be very careful before you make these generalisations otherwise you might look rather foolish.
Why do I need to be a "person of colour" (I am white BTW, is that not a colour?) to have woken up with a sense of dread? No, I was not dancing for joy as it happens because I know the vote has split the country and caused a lot of bitterness. That is not my fault, it was the fault of David Cameron for not correctly setting out the terms of the referendum. There should have been a minimum 67% of the vote in favour of one side or the other. That way no-one could turn around and claim that it was a close run thing and not a real test of public opinion etc etc...If 67% voted remain then the status quo would prevail, 67% to leave, we would leave. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Sorry, I was only talking about the House of Commons. The House of Lords should be scrapped and replaced with an elected assembly but with proper control of the purse strings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
But what if, as happened, less than 67% voted either way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
I do agree that a bigger majority should have been required for change, but anything over 50% leave would still have resulted in major clamour for leaving.
I am currently involved in sponsoring a Syrian family to come and live in wales , I do it because I want to not because god tells me to be good or some sense of christian moral , which is bullshitQuote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
You lot think that being christian makes you a moral person , what a load of crap
The local chess club donate to the starving in africa , go and join them !
I cant stand tory Christians , give to charity to make themselves all high and mighty then vote for social policies that force families to food banks
Pompous hypocritical idiots
A lawyer asked jesus a question ?
This is coming from a guidebook written hundreds of years after the emergence of this fantasy figure and you are quoting thisxas some sort of fact ? Its complete cobblers
You can believe it if you want but all this starving kids in africa are in need of help , where is this jesus fella now they need him ?
Nowhere , because he doesn't exist except in the minds of people afraid of death and desperate for an afterlife
There are no tories in heaven , not because tories are laggards, it's because heaven doesn't exist
Good job you're not referring to me then as I am none of those things!Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
You and I should meet face-to-face for a chat sometime rather than get embroiled in this keyboard warrior stuff which is in danger of descending into the sort of vitriolic nonsense frequently seen elsewhere on this board. Do you get to most home games at the CCFC?
Even if the whole thing is indeed a work of fantasy, that does not alter the fundamental truth of the parable does it? I suppose a modern day version would be for example where a Syrian man comes across an injured ISIS fighter, someone who is hated by the entire Syrian population, and having compassion on him takes him to a doctor/hospital and pays for the treatment himself. That would be a true case of loving thy neighbour.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Jesus is not around physically (until the second coming), so meanwhile Christians are to be his earthly hands and feet. BTW I am neither afraid of death (maybe the dying bit!) and not "desperate" for an afterlife. Only the honest belief in Jesus will see you into heaven -all our good works count for nowt. Hence whether we like it or not, there are likely to be Tories in heaven!
If less than 67% voted either way then the status quo would stand i.e. we would remain in the EU. That is whole point - there has to be a significant proportion of voters, hence strictly nlt 67%. That would be the rule and hence forget about any clamour either way with anything less.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
I agree it should have been set there, but had 60% voted to Leave but nothing was done, the last three years would have been even worse than it has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
The local chess club do as much good work as Christians for the less well offQuote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
You are a tory christian are you not ?
Yes it's a Syrian family to be relocated to the vale of glamorgan
So god has made you moral ? This is fantasy island stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Oscar Wilde once called a cynic someone who knew the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I worked with and usually against the EU Commission for a good proportion of my career. I found them competent and coherent but equally risk averse, arrogant and at times spendthrift in the manner you describe.
But when making decisions, particularly major investment ones you have to look at the benefits as well as the costs. The government's own economic analysis placed in the House of Commons library after Johnson's withdrawal deal estimates that over a 15 year period the UK'S GDP will be between 2.1 and 3.9% pa smaller than if we retained membership.
The upper limit is based on low to no net inward migration from the EU of a type that a goodly proportion of leave voters would likely be comfortable with. It also factors in the financial settlement and the cessation of our net contributions. It was the least worst option on the table and if as intimated we plan to diverge away from EU standards and towards a basic free trade agreement these figures could be higher.
Using your metric that equates to an economic benefit loss of between 65 and 110 million euros per annum for each MEP. In a business case it membership on economic grounds regardless of a proportion of EU profligacy would be a no brainer.
We have to recognise that other factors were and still are at play for many people that drove the result and leave we will on 31st January for better or worse.
That's what I am driving at. Where is the line between recognising the benefits and wishing to reform from within and wanting to leave? The lord's isn't a new thing, why aren't you advocating leaving the UK?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
The next decade will be about denying that analysis like this (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...it-for-the-u-k) is true. I based my vote on 2 things
1) this premise, that we would need only see a small economic hit for the net contribution to be dwarfed by lost growth.
2) that being able to move almost completely freely around loads of varied and interesting land is life-altering. That right will be handed out based on income/wealth now.
Why? I voted leave but like everyone else I would have known about the 67% rule before I voted, so no argument surely. If the vote was 66.9% then I would ask for a recount!Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
These sound like Project Fear arguments to me. Let's wait and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
There's no saving you buddy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Why this obsession with good works? I have never claimed that Christians have a monopoly on good works. Indeed in Ephesians 2:8-9 it says: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
If you recall you taunted me with your comment about love thy neighbour unless he is an immigrant, as if I am some rabid far-right racist. My example of bringing the Syrian refugee family was simply in response to that comment, not some additional bragging rights about good works. Incidentally our community sponsorship group consists of people of faith and of no faith, I just happened to have had the motivation to kick it off.
Why do you also seem to characterise a Christian as some kind of racist Brexit/Tory-voting toff? It makes me wonder how many Christians you know personally. For the record I would describe myself as apolitical in as much as I have no political affiliations. I suppose if you wanted to classify me I would be leaning towards socialist but my ideal political party would be a kind of pick and mix of policies from all parties but firmly based on justice and equality for all.
I don’t think God has made me a moral person but he brought me to the realisation that I have fallen way short of the person that Jesus expects me to be. Hence I aim to be the best person I can be (but will never be “perfect”) for him and to be his hands and feet wherever I find myself. “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matthew 25:40).
If you would like to meet to have a chat and a drink with me, the offer is there. I do not get to many games any more but I do have a Flexiticket so I get down to the CCS when I can. I used one last weekend to watch the Swansea game – not a classic unfortunately!
Yes we are leaving so we will now see if the prophets of doom were right , as a once famous poster back in the day " lets wait and see " and I cant wait for wait and see moment , there such fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue