If Bulut Stays-Can He Succeed?

And success would be play offs for the majority-I'm guessing?

so then, if Bulut is given another crack at it, then can anyone see us progressing up the league table? I'm not going to touch on the football in this pot, the style of play etc, the entertainment value or things that get our backsides off the seat. I'm more interested in his system, his very rigid system.

It's a non comital Midfield, flat, no penetration from central areas, no movement unless it's across the midfield line, a midfield who get the ball wide as soon as possible. Our attack play is from a wide position, which tells me that bulut likes to stretch the opposition, allow an attacking midfield player a tiny bit of freedom, but only when we have the ball. He doesn't want anything to do with playing through teams. We all know this stuff anyway.

I do believe that Bulut has a system of play, players need to be in certain positions at certain points of play during a game, i think that he likes discipline and hard work (nothing wrong with that) And i believe that he really thinks that his system can work, call him deluded or confident if you like, although sometimes there's not much between both those character traits and it can serve some people well.

I can't even watch his style of football anymore, it bores me rigid. I may not be interested, but i do believe that Bulut has method, and if he can bring in players who can buy into his work ethic, discipline, shape and incredibly rigid tactics, then i think that we could move up the table. I believe that the Championship is open to teams who do things differently or who force a style of play on to their opponents because it lacks quality.

I'm not endorsing his football, i can't stand it, but like i said, he has a system, and it's very rigid, games are very similar. I think that with his type of signings and a group of players drilled to shit and back that it could see us climbing the table.

I also believe teams that do things a bit differently get rewarded in the championship but all i have seen is a box standard static 4231 even though we don't necessarily have players with the characteristics to excel in that system.

We haven't had a championship-caliber lone striker but have players who have scored goals as a pair.

Collins is a runner but has been shackled, the keeper isn't great with his feet and team press in this league. This squad was more suited to 442

Our mate Russell Martin has superior players 1~24 but his possession-based boredom has got him to 4th and we need to get to 6th

Who would you rather watch Ipswich with fast committed all-out attack or Southampton? Is it suited to English football, especially the championship? Citeh are financial dopers so don't count.

There was a moment yesterday where Bowler had the ball and three Boro defenders descended on him and he ran out of room. Won't future oppositions just close the space on the flanks and we'll lose possession regardless of who's playing there? Maybe he'll surprise us all and there'll be more variation but surely the same tactics will give us another mid-table finish (provided the bodies on the line approach continues to work).

No.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No.

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Why.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No.

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That reply was like the final moments of a French Art House Film.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

That reply was like the final moments of a French Art House Film.

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In that case, non.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

In that case, non.

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:hehe: I'll set you up......

Yes if he is backed as with every manager that walks through the door. To succeed you need talent.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Yes if he is backed as with every manager that walks through the door. To succeed you need talent.

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Dedication's what you need.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Dedication's what you need.

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Indeed, and commitment, team working, intelligence, delivering, desire, flair, skill, above all wanting to play for your manager and fans, not just pick up ones pay packet without much contribution to our success.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Indeed, and commitment, team working, intelligence, delivering, desire, flair, skill, above all wanting to play for your manager and fans, not just pick up ones pay packet without much contribution to our success.

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If you want to be a record breaker.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

That reply was like the final moments of a French Art House Film.

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*Bulut raises fingers to mouth as if about to whistle….but changes his mind…..close up of a single bead of sweat trickling down his forehead*

FIN

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

*Bulut raises fingers to mouth as if about to whistle….but changes his mind…..close up of a single bead of sweat trickling down his forehead*

FIN

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I'd stay up especially for the French films on channel 4.....

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I'd stay up especially for the French films on channel 4.....

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Those heady nights when a fledgling new channel showed films with Gerard Depardieu before he was fat!

Of course. Every chance we will finish 9th and just 7 points from play offs. Considering we have been 18th and 21st last 2 seasons and under a transfer embargo, as well as this being his first season in British football every chance he can progress us those few extra points.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

There was a moment yesterday where Bowler had the ball and three Boro defenders descended on him and he ran out of room. Won't future oppositions just close the space on the flanks and we'll lose possession regardless of who's playing there? Maybe he'll surprise us all and there'll be more variation but surely the same tactics will give us another mid-table finish (provided the bodies on the line approach continues to work).

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That's the thing, if Bulut's tactics are really as rigid and specific as Tuerto says they are (they certainly have been this season), aren't we going to be dead easy to play against next season because the opposition will know exactly how we are going to set up?

There was a fair bit of optimism within the week leading up to Saturday's match that we may see a few youngsters starting, but apart from Ashford (would he have been in the starting eleven if Grant was fit?), the youngsters had to wait for their chance es we lined up tactically just as we always do for league games. Ashford's first half performance offered proof that Bulut's mantra about working hard out of possession was still being applied - nothing wrong with that, but it's a question of degree with me and Bulut's priorities with his so called wingers have been very defensively orientated, moreso than with most clubs we play I'd say. I found it a bit sad that so much of Ashford's youthful enthusiasm was used up chasing back and forth deep in his own half making sure we had ten of the team behind the ball as soon as Boro got within fifty yards of our goal.

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but all season long, I've found the contrast in the type of football we play in Cup and league matches fascinating. The team selected are clearly given more freedom to express themselves when we're in possession with the pay back behind the mad defensive selections which improve the team's ability to play out from the back, but at the expense of what I'll call basic defending because there are so few natural defenders involved (those that are tend to be out of position).

To my mind, if you're a young full back, midfielder, winger or striker playing for the first team under bulut in a cup tie, it must be like playing an age group in terms of the type of football being played, but it is no preparation for what you'll be facing in Bulut's starting eleven for a Championship fixture. We may not be anything like as much of a long ball team under Erol Bulut, but it's still the case that the football played by the first team in the Championship bears no relation tactically to the way our youngsters play in our age group teams.

Erol Buluts' teams are good at winning games that we manage to stay in until their closing stages - our record from going behind from 1-0 down to win is pretty good, but if 1-0 becomes 2-0 or 3-1 then forget it - we've only drawn two games 2-2 all season and we were leading 2-0 and 2-1 in those. Similarly, we've only scored more than two in a game twice - a 3-2 win over Coventry in which we were never behind after taking an early lead and the 4-0 win on the ground of a side that are all but relegated.

This helps explain to some degree why we've only been capable of winning by one goal margins for the last six months whereas our lack of goals means that opponents are safe in knowing that the match is as good as won if they can get two goals clear of us.

We may not play a version of hoofball any more, but the basic thinking behind our tactical approach is the same, no matter who we're playing in a Championship game, we go out onto the pitch with an attitude that shouts "we think our opponents are better than us" - you would have thought that during a season where we been mid table or better for nearly all of the time, we still kept on playingon the back foot at hime against sides that were below us in.the table.

This philosophy explains why that big win at Huddersfield back in October is unique ib our season in being the only game out of the forty five in which it felt like we were in command for the whole ninety minutes - even last season there were matches like Birmingham, Rotherham, Blackburn and Reading at home where it felt like we were in charge throughout despite us only winning them 1-0 - not one of our home games have had that feel to them this season I'd say, we edge our way to wins under Bulut, but with the way he sets us up, it's the only way we can do it..

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Why.

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Depends what you call success. His baseline is to keep us in this division so Tan might be able to sell the club close to the land of milk and honey. As Hudson alluded to recently, Tan probably gets involved in everything where he doesn’t need too. Bulet gets well paid, does enough to keep his job and us in this league. Entertainment doesn’t even come into it, now and again we have a day like the jacks at home, Ipswich etc….id love to know what the “real” attendances have been this season…..

He's not staying, we'd know by now if he was, let's rip it al, up and start again, and as usual a New Manager for Christmas, and a relegation battle to look forward to again.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I'd stay up especially for the French films on channel 4.....

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we all know why

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

He's not staying, we'd know by now if he was, let's rip it al, up and start again, and as usual a New Manager for Christmas, and a relegation battle to look forward to again.

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Who is to say we wouldn't have a relegation battle if Bulut stays? Like others, I feel top half has been a false position for us and, statistically at least, virtually all stats point to a season of struggle, wins apart.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Who is to say we wouldn't have a relegation battle if Bulut stays? Like others, I feel top half has been a false position for us and, statistically at least, virtually all stats point to a season of struggle, wins apart.

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No indication of that whatsoever, he's comfortably top half with a restricted budget and choice of players, if he stayed and was to get some overseas bargains a push for the playoffs, stage one was to make us secure and the top half of the table worked well, stage two would be better attacking players.

You've already predicted we'd finish near the bottom this season.

The question is essentially "can he adapt?", to which the answer is, there's zero evidence that he can based on this season.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

No indication of that whatsoever, he's comfortably top half with a restricted budget and choice of players, if he stayed and was to get some overseas bargains a push for the playoffs, stage one was to make us secure and the top half of the table worked well, stage two would be better attacking players.

You've already predicted we'd finish near the bottom this season.

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Thankfully we pinched enough wins to avoid that happening. Equally there were some thinking we could make the playoffs. That was even more nonsensical (or wildly optimisitic).

We should be grateful for the start we made. Even with a mini revival (of sorts), our form since Bristol City/Preston has been ranked 17th with one of the worst defences and feeblest attacks in the division.

Now, had we started the season poorly and found good form and progressed through the season, fair enough, but I feel that we've got worse as the season has gone on and stats bear that up. This hasn't got anything to do with the January transfer window, either.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

No indication of that whatsoever

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I forgot to reply directly to this bit, but there are a load of stats that would bear that out, many that don't compare favourably to last season's struggles. The only 2 stats that I can find that equate to a positive are the number of wins we've managed and our ability from set pieces. Virtually all other stats don't make for good reading.

If things had been the other way around, we'd lost a load of games narrowly but had given a few teams a good hiding, we'd finished in the bottom half but were creating lots of chances, scoring a few goals, I'd think that's something to work with. I look at Fergie's early years at Man Utd where they could give teams a hiding, but also lost a few. I remember them winning 6-2 at Highbury in the league cup. Arsenal won the league that season, conceding 18 at home all season, yet Fergie's youngsters gave them a battering. There was a feeling that, when they clicked, they'd be dangerous. I don't get that feeling with Bulut's side at all. If anything I fear we could lose most times we play.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Thankfully we pinched enough wins to avoid that happening. Equally there were some thinking we could make the playoffs. That was even more nonsensical (or wildly optimisitic).

We should be grateful for the start we made. Even with a mini revival (of sorts), our form since Bristol City/Preston has been ranked 17th with one of the worst defences and feeblest attacks in the division.

Now, had we started the season poorly and found good form and progressed through the season, fair enough, but I feel that we've got worse as the season has gone on and stats bear that up. This hasn't got anything to do with the January transfer window, either.

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If my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle, it was obvious we'd improved you could see months ago we'd finish top half and we did.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I forgot to reply directly to this bit, but there are a load of stats that would bear that out, many that don't compare favourably to last season's struggles. The only 2 stats that I can find that equate to a positive are the number of wins we've managed and our ability from set pieces. Virtually all other stats don't make for good reading.

If things had been the other way around, we'd lost a load of games narrowly but had given a few teams a good hiding, we'd finished in the bottom half but were creating lots of chances, scoring a few goals, I'd think that's something to work with. I look at Fergie's early years at Man Utd where they could give teams a hiding, but also lost a few. I remember them winning 6-2 at Highbury in the league cup. Arsenal won the league that season, conceding 18 at home all season, yet Fergie's youngsters gave them a battering. There was a feeling that, when they clicked, they'd be dangerous. I don't get that feeling with Bulut's side at all. If anything I fear we could lose most times we play.

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He inherited a poor squad and we are weak up top, with no Striker, and O'Dowda and Rambo have been out all season, some signings in those positions would make a World of difference, he's done well with what he has had.

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

The question is essentially "can he adapt?", to which the answer is, there's zero evidence that he can based on this season.

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Excellent point.
You need to be able to adapt: in any given game, from one opponent to the next, from one season to the next if others have sussed you out.

Bulut can’t/won’t.

Yet we’re not even good enough at the things he plans.

Considering he is quoted as saying he “hates to lose”, our defence has been absolutely shocking at times…and his desire to turn every creative player in the squad into a defender has dragged the whole team down.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I forgot to reply directly to this bit, but there are a load of stats that would bear that out, many that don't compare favourably to last season's struggles. The only 2 stats that I can find that equate to a positive are the number of wins we've managed and our ability from set pieces. Virtually all other stats don't make for good reading.

If things had been the other way around, we'd lost a load of games narrowly but had given a few teams a good hiding, we'd finished in the bottom half but were creating lots of chances, scoring a few goals, I'd think that's something to work with. I look at Fergie's early years at Man Utd where they could give teams a hiding, but also lost a few. I remember them winning 6-2 at Highbury in the league cup. Arsenal won the league that season, conceding 18 at home all season, yet Fergie's youngsters gave them a battering. There was a feeling that, when they clicked, they'd be dangerous. I don't get that feeling with Bulut's side at all. If anything I fear we could lose most times we play.

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What on earth are you doing comparing hit and miss man united and arsenal sides with us ?

It's a bit early for the meths !

what is success?
promotion to the premier League?

if so, what is our path to success?
for me it needs to be sustainable improvement year on year rather than betting the house on some expensive signings.
we need to be building something - sometimes when you play this kind of long game things will unexpectedly click early and you can go up, but you can't count on that happening, so the priority needs to be to progress each season while not overstretching financially.
Under Dave Jones we were stronger each season for 6 years in a row, transforming us from also rans to perennial promotion contenders.
we need that kind of gradual progress because my gut feeling is that the financial gulf between the haves and have nots is too big these days to make going for it a viable option in our current position.
We need to be bringing through younger players and making signings that will potentially have resale value in the majority of cases.
I'm not convinced that that is what Bulut is all about - but we have improved in league position, Ans we have a few youngsters a lot closer to the first 11 than before he took over so I think he deserves at least another year as long as his strategy alligns with the clubs.
unfortunately he strikes me as a "win now" type of manager, and we need someone who is going to build something.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

O'Dowda and Rambo have been out all season,

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Had you been managing the side, where would you have played O’Dowda (aka the Irish Messi)?

O Dowda is a talented player. But he was injury prone at Bristol City and the same with us.

If he was out of contract Id let him go.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

O Dowda is a talented player. But he was injury prone at Bristol City and the same with us.

If he was out of contract Id let him go.

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And can play in a number of positions

I think if both he and Ramsey had been playing just maybe ten games on top this season we would have seen a difference

In fact if we were showing a bit of flair the usual suspects would have been calling for a tighter defence and midfield

It's potty on here

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Originally Posted by Hilts

O Dowda is a talented player. But he was injury prone at Bristol City and the same with us.

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O’Dowda started five games this season. The side’s record in those games was won 1, drew 1, lost 3. The only victory in which he played the full 90 minutes was the 2-1 win against Sheffield Wednesday in August, and that would have ended in a draw had it not been for Vaulks giving City a penalty in injury time.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

And can play in a number of positions

I think if both he and Ramsey had been playing just maybe ten games on top this season we would have seen a difference

In fact if we were showing a bit of flair the usual suspects would have been calling for a tighter defence and midfield

It's potty on here

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Why are you implying we have a tight defence? We have conceded 65 goals, only 4 teams in the division have conceded more!!!

12th place but minus 14 goal difference is cause for alarm to my mind. We often get battered when we lose and only win by the odd goal. Not good.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Why are you implying we have a tight defence? We have conceded 65 goals, only 4 teams in the division have conceded more!!!

12th place but minus 14 goal difference is cause for alarm to my mind. We often get battered when we lose and only win by the odd goal. Not good.

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several of our wins are in games that we were getting battered in as well, and could easily have gone the other way.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

several of our wins are in games that we were getting battered in as well, and could easily have gone the other way.

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Yes, and some of the losses could have easily gone the other way, that's football!

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Had you been managing the side, where would you have played O’Dowda (aka the Irish Messi)?

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On the left he's a decent at fullback and left midfield, as an attacking player, and works hard when not injured or carrying a knock.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

O’Dowda started five games this season. The side’s record in those games was won 1, drew 1, lost 3. The only victory in which he played the full 90 minutes was the 2-1 win against Sheffield Wednesday in August, and that would have ended in a draw had it not been for Vaulks giving City a penalty in injury time.

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10 appearances won 5 lost 4 Leicester Sunderland Swansea QPR drew Leeds, probably wasn't fully match-fit for all of them.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

On the left he's a decent at fullback and left midfield, as an attacking player, and works hard when not injured or carrying a knock.

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So who would you have dropped?