PM blames the west for "provoking" Russia's attack on Ukraine.

Oh hang on, I'm told that, in fact, Nigel Farage is not the Prime Minister - I assumed he was because of all of the media coverage he gets, turns out his party don't even have a single MP at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cldd44zv3kpo

Daresay he'll have a few on here agreeing with him.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Oh hang on, I'm told that, in fact, Nigel Farage is not the Prime Minister - I assumed he was because of all of the media coverage he gets, turns out his party don't even have a single MP at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cldd44zv3kpo

Daresay he'll have a few on here agreeing with him.

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Probably the same idiots who argued against us helping the U.S. killing 500,000 Iraqis, similar numbers in Libya, toppling 2 stable regimes which are now basket cases of countries, and believe Ukraine was bombing the Donbas well before the Russian invasion..

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Oh hang on, I'm told that, in fact, Nigel Farage is not the Prime Minister - I assumed he was because of all of the media coverage he gets, turns out his party don't even have a single MP at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cldd44zv3kpo

Daresay he'll have a few on here agreeing with him.

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I'm surprised they didn't put this part in bold red capitalised letters with an XL font! They did give the sentence it's own paragraph though.

"Every vote for Farage is celebrated in Moscow!"

Probably true for Trump too

Did Ukraine have a vote on joining the EU?

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Originally Posted by pipster

Did Ukraine have a vote on joining the EU?

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No. Some countries know what’s good for them without needing to ask the public. Look where it got us.

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Originally Posted by pipster

Did Ukraine have a vote on joining the EU?

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They no longer have a democracy so how can they vote?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro...20EU%20deal%22.

Looks like they started negotiations to get into bed with the EU back in 2013, when did Russia move into Crimea, I think it was around 2014/15
They obviously did this for a reason, they didn’t want an EU nation on their doorstep or even a possible future nato member.
I vaguely remember the previous Ukrainian PM getting criticism for being a Russian stooge, then getting kicked out etc
And now we havre a Ukraine split in 2. A Russian invasion and a ruined Ukraine. If they had just stayed an independent country and not aligned to the EU we probably wouldn’t be in the situation we find ourselves in today. Russia probably want all the buffer countries to be like this rather than aligning with the EU

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Originally Posted by pipster

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro...20EU%20deal%22.

Looks like they started negotiations to get into bed with the EU back in 2013, when did Russia move into Crimea, I think it was around 2014/15
They obviously did this for a reason, they didn’t want an EU nation on their doorstep or even a possible future nato member.
I vaguely remember the previous Ukrainian PM getting criticism for being a Russian stooge, then getting kicked out etc
And now we havre an Ukraine split in 2. A Russian invasion and a ruined Ukraine. If they had just stayed an independent country and not aligned to the EU we probably wouldn’t be in the situation we find ourselves in today. Russia probably want all the buffer countries to be like this rather than aligning with the EU

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Not a smart move by Putin. Now he has NATO countries on his door all the way to the Baltic and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

Not a smart move by Putin. Now he has NATO countries on his door all the way to the Baltic and beyond.

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Can you verify your source just like can you verify western media outlets views on the “conflict”

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Originally Posted by pipster

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro...20EU%20deal%22.

Looks like they started negotiations to get into bed with the EU back in 2013, when did Russia move into Crimea, I think it was around 2014/15
They obviously did this for a reason, they didn’t want an EU nation on their doorstep or even a possible future nato member.
I vaguely remember the previous Ukrainian PM getting criticism for being a Russian stooge, then getting kicked out etc
And now we havre a Ukraine split in 2. A Russian invasion and a ruined Ukraine. If they had just stayed an independent country and not aligned to the EU we probably wouldn’t be in the situation we find ourselves in today. Russia probably want all the buffer countries to be like this rather than aligning with the EU

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How dare the Ukraine exercise self-determination. It should do what's best for its neighbours, not itself.

Farage is on the run now

He's got a big interview in the torygraph tomorrow saying the invasion of Ukraine was disgusting , immoral and shameful !

Much like Nigel

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Farage is on the run now

He's got a big interview in the torygraph tomorrow saying the invasion of Ukraine was disgusting , immoral and shameful !

Much like Nigel

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Our Nige might have shot himself in the foot with that comment. Not even your most rabid racist, selfish Anglophile appreciates someone who gets a hard on thinking about Vlad.

Sounds like Farage has gone all Corbyn , SNP , Kier, Russian sympathisers

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Our Nige might have shot himself in the foot with that comment. Not even your most rabid racist, selfish Anglophile appreciates someone who gets a hard on thinking about Vlad.

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Can you not the similarity between what Russia has done in it's reaction to Ukraine being more aligned with the West and how the USA reacted in the bay of pigs ? - when Russia wanted to place nuclear weapons in Cuba - and the USA reacted accordingly..

Can anyone actually find a quote where he uses the word 'provoked'?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Can anyone actually find a quote where he uses the word 'provoked'?

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It’s there in the eleventh para of the linked BBC piece.

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Originally Posted by az city

How dare the Ukraine exercise self-determination. It should do what's best for its neighbours, not itself.

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Shocking isn’t it, there’s no point us or Scotland pursuing independence because it’ll only prompt an invasion by England and there’ll be some on here arguing they’d be right to do so because we had provoked them into it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Shocking isn’t it, there’s no point us or Scotland pursuing independence because it’ll only prompt an invasion by England and there’ll be some on here arguing they’d be right to do so because we had provoked them into it.

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https://x.com/ricwe123/status/180454...LhmySD2aRt-GNg

December 2013 John McCain, live from Kyiv,tells CNN the US delegation in Ukraine is seeking to "bring about" a "transition" in the country(remove the government)

Declares how "pleased" he is that Victoria Nuland is with him on the scene, attempting to achieve this goal....

Provoked is absolutely the wrong word and only one person is to blame - Putin. There is essentially zero moral justification for his war. The only remotely just part of his argument (that ethnic Russians were being abused in eastern Ukraine) is very flimsy and not justification for what he's done. So, it is all on Putin.

But. In the land of Realpolitik, there are still reasons for things happening. Just like Germany starting WW2 is entirely unjustified, it doesn't mean we ignore the treaty of Versailles which many Germans cite as a reason for grievance. Likewise, many on here have correctly argued that the Israel/Palestine situation did not start on October 7th.

So Farages wording was wrong, but in explaining what happened and why he is essentially right. Putin is a maniacal paranoid tyrant but he likely did feel threatened.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Provoked is absolutely the wrong word and only one person is to blame - Putin. There is essentially zero moral justification for his war. The only remotely just part of his argument (that ethnic Russians were being abused in eastern Ukraine) is very flimsy and not justification for what he's done. So, it is all on Putin.

But. In the land of Realpolitik, there are still reasons for things happening. Just like Germany starting WW2 is entirely unjustified, it doesn't mean we ignore the treaty of Versailles which many Germans cite as a reason for grievance. Likewise, many on here have correctly argued that the Israel/Palestine situation did not start on October 7th.

So Farages wording was wrong, but in explaining what happened and why he is essentially right. Putin is a maniacal paranoid tyrant but he likely did feel threatened.

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Yeah I don't have a massive issue with what farage has said here, other than strategically its stupid because it's so easy to jump on.

It draws some parallels to Israel/Gaza to me as well in a sense. In the aftermath of 7th Oct, the political class was unanimously giving Israel a blank cheque to do whatever they wanted. The reality is that things we do/support/contribute to have real consequences, usually for other people.

That isn't to say that now we are here, Ukraine should just hand over territory to appease Putin (for now) but to pretend that the world is just some kind of binary evil Vs good is just plain delusional.

I disagree that Farage is a Putin fan. What he was saying is the expansion of NATO enabled the latter to justify his war on Ukraine to his fellow Russian citizens. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I disagree that Farage is a Putin fan. What he was saying is the expansion of NATO enabled the latter to justify his war on Ukraine to his fellow Russian citizens. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

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He is certainly a Putin fan:

https://www.itv.com/news/update/2014...n-as-a-leader/

He may not want to share a fag and a pint with Putin, and he may not agree with all of Putin's mafia and crony capitalist policies (or claims he doesn't) but he rates him as the top political operator around at the moment.

Farage also loves Trump. And Trump has had a bromance and political collaboration with Putin for a decade.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

He is certainly a Putin fan:

https://www.itv.com/news/update/2014...n-as-a-leader/

He may not want to share a fag and a pint with Putin, and he may not agree with all of Putin's mafia and crony capitalist policies (or claims he doesn't) but he rates him as the top political operator around at the moment.

Farage also loves Trump. And Trump has had a bromance and political collaboration with Putin for a decade.

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Your man Corbyn was prone to the same Russian love in for more than a decade .

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Originally Posted by jon1959

He is certainly a Putin fan:

https://www.itv.com/news/update/2014...n-as-a-leader/

He may not want to share a fag and a pint with Putin, and he may not agree with all of Putin's mafia and crony capitalist policies (or claims he doesn't) but he rates him as the top political operator around at the moment.

Farage also loves Trump. And Trump has had a bromance and political collaboration with Putin for a decade.

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Saying Putin is a shrewd political operator is not the same as being a fan.

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Saying Putin is a shrewd political operator is not the same as being a fan.

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

Farage is becoming increasingly Trumpian right down to the very thin skin he has.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

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So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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The people I admire are not politicians. Please don't jump to the same conclusions as SF!

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

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Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It’s there in the eleventh para of the linked BBC piece.

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Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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So many people say Farage is a shrewd politician, so I suppose he must be, but I can remember him saying that a 52/48 defeat for Leave would be small enough to convince him to keep on campaigning for Brexit - that’s something that I suspect will be used against him when the Remain side start pushing for closer ties with the EU as they inevitably will eventually. Talking of the Referendum, he wasn’t too shrewd when he came on TV as the polls were closing back in June 2016 to say he thought Remain had won. I have heard it said mind that he said that to try to get the odds on Leave to lengthen so he could make himself some money - interesting given a story doing the rounds at present.

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make with your second question, as far as Putin is concerned he would say that wouldn’t he and all Farage is doing is parroting Putin’s line - Farage is a modern day Neville Chamberlain type appeaser which is ironic given that he is one of those men of a certain age who talk almost lovingly about the Second World War as they try to convince themselves that they actually fought in it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So many people say Farage is a shrewd politician, so I suppose he must be, but I can remember him saying that a 52/48 defeat for Leave would be small enough to convince him to keep on campaigning for Brexit - that’s something that I suspect will be used against him when the Remain side start pushing for closer ties with the EU as they inevitably will eventually. Talking of the Referendum, he wasn’t too shrewd when he came on TV as the polls were closing back in June 2016 to say he thought Remain had won. I have heard it said mind that he said that to try to get the odds on Leave to lengthen so he could make himself some money - interesting given a story doing the rounds at present.

I didn't say Farage was a shrewd politician, I said Putin is a shrewd politician. Do you agree?

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make with your second question, as far as Putin is concerned he would say that wouldn’t he and all Farage is doing is parroting Putin’s line - Farage is a modern day Neville Chamberlain type appeaser which is ironic given that he is one of those men of a certain age who talk almost lovingly about the Second World War as they try to convince themselves that they actually fought in it.

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It's immaterial that "he would say that wouldn't he" of course he would! The fact is he said it, so you must agree that he used the NATO threat to justify the war in Ukraine to his fellow countrymen.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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The ITV news link I provided above stated (from his interview) that Farage regarded Putin as 'the world leader he most admires'.

I suppose I'm just an idiot to reduce that to 'Putin fan'. Oh well....

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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I missed your questions before.

Yes, I agree Putin is probably a 'shrewd politician' - but shrewd in the service of maintaining his power and prestige, not in improving the lives of ordinary Russians. He uses Great Russian nationalism and the wealth and influence of his cronies to stay in power (for now).

The 'NATO threat' was part of his justification for the invasion of Ukraine. There were other justifications too - around the status of Ukraine as an independent nation, around the events leading up to 2014 in the Donbas, and around the nature of the regime in Kyiv.

Not sure what the significance of the two questions is though. The question that started this is what Farage thinks about Putin - not what Putin has told Russians about the reasons for war in Ukraine or whether he is clever or not.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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Farage is a complete idiot

He may be very clever but the inflammatory language he uses regarding immigration means he is to be vilified not admired

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Well you are on the right of politics as you are a tory

I don't care if putin is shrewd

Or farage

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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Can you point me in the direction of where I said Mr Gofer was a fan of Mr Putin ?

Old fruit

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

It's immaterial that "he would say that wouldn't he" of course he would! The fact is he said it, so you must agree that he used the NATO threat to justify the war in Ukraine to his fellow countrymen.

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Sorry, I misread your message, I’d answer your first question by saying Putin has a measure of low cunning.

As for your second question, I repeat that he would say that wouldn’t he and, to repeat what I said earlier in the thread, Wales and Scotland could prepare for invasion if they were pushing too hard for independence if Putin was Prime Minister of the UK - the attempted invasion of Ukraine was not the action of a politically shrewd man.