Justin Welby

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Can you quote me ever writing a denial about Christmas not rising from the dead? Or have you just made that up? You do seem to imagine
things at times before you go off at irrelevant tangents?

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Christmas = Christ

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

In the opening minutes they make an excellent case for atheism covering most of the points we often read on this forum. The resurrection is the basis of Christian faith and if it can be proved that it did not happen, then Christianity is dead in the water. Obviously as a one-off historical event it can neither be proven or disproven in the scientific sense, so we have to look at the available evidence. This is something I did myself, but not until many years (20 or so?) after I had dismissed any notion of a loving creator God during my atheistic teenager days when I thought science could explain everything.

I read two books - "Who moved the stone" and "The case for Christ". These are both in-depth studies into what I suppose could be described as the sociology of the Holy Land at the time as a background to the events surrounding the resurrection,as well as aspects of the event itself. Both books were written by skeptics who set out to try to disprove the resurrection and deal with all the usual criticisms such as Jesus wasn't really dead in the first place, the disciples stole the body, Jesus had an identical twin brother, the disciples suffered some kind of mass hallucination, it was all wishful thinking etc. etc.

I'm pretty confident that no-one who contributes to this debate will bother to read either of these as it will take some considerable time/effort and will instead probably take a short cut and read a summary critique by some well known atheist. So this then is my challenge to you, as indeed I was challenged. Read them for yourself in their entirety and only then decide whether to accept or reject the resurrection. I try to be a constant witness to the Christian faith but you can lead a horse to water etc..... :wink:

I do not have the tenacity of Truthpaste so I will not labour the point. I've done my bit, now over to you.

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I do respect you but Truthpaste can be very cutting.

Truthpaste and Gofer - sorry, I can’t remember if I asked this before but would the proof of non-human intelligence (aliens) contradict your beliefs?

Also, do you believe in the firmament as described in the Bible, which suggests the Earth is flat? Thanks in advance. I’m genuinely interested in this topic.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

I do respect you but Truthpaste can be very cutting.

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TP and I are both believers in, and followers of, Jesus. TP is very much “in your face” and reminds unbelievers upfront that they are unrepentant sinners and are on the broad, easy road to hell – which is true, sadly. My approach is somewhat different. I first try to get folk to question why the world is the way it is today. God came in the form of Jesus to show us how to live but as G.K.Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found too difficult and left untried. Not by everyone of course, otherwise there would not be millions of people around the world who are Christians including TP and myself.

That is not to say that it is not difficult to be one. At worst in the U.K. Christians are subject to ridicule but in some parts of the world their lives are on the line – I personally know of pastors in India for example who have been murdered and their homes/churches burnt down.

We are Christians not because we believe we are somehow better, i.e. morally superior, to most people but quite the opposite – we recognise that however “good” we are, we are still sinners who fall way short of the goodness of God/Jesus. It is only by grace that we are saved. I like to leave that thought with people and let them ponder these things for themselves. At some point they will either become convicted of the truth that they are sinners in need of that grace or they will not. It is not my job to convert people, but just to sow the seeds.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

I do respect you but Truthpaste can be very cutting.

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Sure, I can be very direct, less so if I get to have a full converstion with individuals and in over 40 years of doing so I've had hundreds of atheists shake my hand, some have agreed to disagree but still say they've appreciated the converstion and often found out something about the Bible they'd not realised before.
What they wisely didn't do is dismiss what the Bible says without a second thought or fail to ask questions respectfully.

I would suggest we all try to do likewise on any subject and we won't hear so much from those who don't suffer fools gladly.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Truthpaste and Gofer - sorry, I can’t remember if I asked this before but would the proof of non-human intelligence (aliens) contradict your beliefs?

Also, do you believe in the firmament as described in the Bible, which suggests the Earth is flat? Thanks in advance. I’m genuinely interested in this topic.

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Non human life that wasn't angelic in origin would not fit with the Scriptures, why do you think secular scientists have thrown away, and will continue to burn billions of dollars (etc) trying to prove there is alien life!

The firnament has nothing to do with a flat-earth but relates to a water-vapour canopy that was part of a very different ecology prior to the worldwide flood; this filtered out much of the radiation that now pentrates the current atmospheric layers which all ties into the reason humans lived so much longer, particularly prior to the flood which itself was mainly caused by the firament releasing its waters:-

Genesis 7:11 - In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

What happened to your investigation into the 'drones' - did you get an conclusive answer?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Non human life that wasn't angelic in origin would not fit with the Scriptures, why do you think secular scientists have thrown away, and will continue to burn billions of dollars (etc) trying to prove there is alien life!

The firnament has nothing to do with a flat-earth but relates to a water-vapour canopy that was part of a very different ecology prior to the worldwide flood; this filtered out much of the radiation that now pentrates the current atmospheric layers which all ties into the reason humans lived so much longer, particularly prior to the flood which itself was mainly caused by the firament releasing its waters:-

Genesis 7:11 - In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

What happened to your investigation into the 'drones' - did you get an conclusive answer?

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A ‘water vapour canopy’ filtered out radiation and allowed people to live to fantastical ages?

Keep up the good work!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

A ‘water vapour canopy’ filtered out radiation and allowed people to live to fantastical ages?

Keep up the good work!

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Keep reading the Guardian, it occasionally comments on such matters :xmasthumbup:

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

What lie did I tell, oh unpleasant one?

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Best put up or apologise.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Just watched it. It's garrulous fluff from someone who couldn't imagine living a non-hedonistic lifestyle with religion.

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Your above comment was on Strobel speaking on the historical evidence for the Resurrection, yet at the same time you imply you've never denied the Resurrection!

So with Strobels two year investigation was focused on the bodily resurrection of Christ, can you tell us clearly - fluff or fact?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Your above comment was on Strobel speaking on the historical evidence for the Resurrection, yet at the same time you imply you've never denied the Resurrection!

So with Strobels two year investigation was focused on the bodily resurrection of Christ, can you tell us clearly - fluff or fact?

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Tell me what lie I specifically told.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Tell me what lie I specifically told.

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Dancing around this eh, as you wish. You dismissed his evidence as fluff. Now have the bottle to explain why or retire to it.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Dancing around this eh, as you wish. You dismissed his evidence as fluff. Now have the bottle to explain why or retire to it.

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The content in the video was garrulous fluff. No evidence was presented.

Now tell me what lie I told.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

The content in the video was garrulous fluff. No evidence was presented.

Now tell me what lie I told.

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From 10.45mins - 16.30mins in the >> interview Strobel provides numerous reasons why the Bible's claim of the Resurrection more than stands up against other ancient writings that are widely accepted as historical fact today.

Are these points fluff or not?

I've no more time to spend on you just using denial, if you believe the resurrection then just say so, your lack of doing so will tell others all they need to know - God already knows.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

From 10.45mins - 16.30mins in the >> interview Strobel provides numerous reasons why the Bible's claim of the Resurrection more than stands up against other ancient writings that are widely accepted as historical fact today.

Are these points fluff or not?

I've no more time to spend on you just using denial, if you believe the resurrection then just say so, your lack of doing so will tell others all they need to know - God already knows.

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It's one person's opinion and it wasn't back up with anything like a scintilla of evidence. Still, if you believe in talking snakes and donkeys you will believe in anything.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's one person's opinion and it wasn't back up with anything like a scintilla of evidence. Still, if you believe in talking snakes and donkeys you will believe in anything.

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If you are really confident that there is no evidence OUTSIDE of the Bible for the Resurrection then here are no less than 4 proofs in this 2 minute video which point to 'an avalanche of evidence' - pick any one of these and we can examine the evidence behind it publicly (here).

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

If you are really confident that there is no evidence OUTSIDE of the Bible for the Resurrection then here are no less than 4 proofs in this 2 minute video which point to 'an avalanche of evidence' - pick any one of these and we can examine the evidence behind it publicly (here).

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I watched that video. Obviously I regret it now.

It is just like most of the embarrassing crap you post. No evidence of anything. Just empty assertions backed by BTEC graphics to imply significance.

No significance. No evidence. No argument. Just a lot of gushing words!

Lame brain nonsense (again)!

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Lie all you like, he was as devastated as any atheist would be (in one sense) to discover his former atheistic wife was now believing in something that all the details from his extensive research couldn't deny as historical fact.
Christ rose from the dead, stop wasting your time denying it and start to process what that now means for you and everyone.

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Where did he go again? I missed that bit

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

If you are really confident that there is no evidence OUTSIDE of the Bible for the Resurrection then here are no less than 4 proofs in this 2 minute video which point to 'an avalanche of evidence' - pick any one of these and we can examine the evidence behind it publicly (here).

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You seem to endlessly present strawman arguments based on specific statements I have never made. You haven't come up with evidence for me lying, by the way.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I watched that video. Obviously I regret it now.

It is just like most of the embarrassing crap you post. No evidence of anything. Just empty assertions backed by BTEC graphics to imply significance.

No significance. No evidence. No argument. Just a lot of gushing words!

Lame brain nonsense (again)!

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But it's EVIDENCE, John! It can't be denied that donkeys spoke, Lot's wife was turned to salt and water was turned into wine. Lee Strobel said so in videos.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Your above comment was on Strobel speaking on the historical evidence for the Resurrection, yet at the same time you imply you've never denied the Resurrection!

So with Strobels two year investigation was focused on the bodily resurrection of Christ, can you tell us clearly - fluff or fact?

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I can't remember ever specifically discussing the resurrection, that's why.

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20...id-fitzgerald/

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20...id-fitzgerald/

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Truthpaste will believe any thing talking donkeys ect.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Truthpaste and Gofer - sorry, I can’t remember if I asked this before but would the proof of non-human intelligence (aliens) contradict your beliefs?

Also, do you believe in the firmament as described in the Bible, which suggests the Earth is flat? Thanks in advance. I’m genuinely interested in this topic.

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My first go-to thoughts on any question regarding Biblical content are: did Jesus have anything to say on the matter? i.e. matters concerning the human condition. As far as I know Jesus had nothing to say about the shape of the earth or extraterrestrial beings, so any response I could give would have to be my own personal opinion.

Firstly, re aliens. It's an interesting question which I have thought about from time to time but I can't say it's kept me awake at night! If there are sentient beings out there similar to us, then like everything else in nature they were created by God. That does not in any way demean us, human kind. Perhaps we are unique in the sense that we alone acknowledge that there is a creator (God) which gives us a special relationship with him – who knows? So, no, proof of the existence of alien beings would not contradict my beliefs.

Secondly, re flat earth. I suspect Jesus wouldn't have wasted time discussing the shape of the earth and being God in human form he would have known the shape as he created it! What bearing would such knowledge have on what he would have regarded as being important in life? What use would such knowledge be to a blind beggar on the streets of Jerusalem in the 1st century or an orphaned child in Gaza in the 21st? These are the things he cares about.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20...id-fitzgerald/

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My prophecy came true then!...

I'm pretty confident that no-one who contributes to this debate will bother to read either of these as it will take some considerable time/effort and will instead probably take a short cut and read a summary critique by some well known atheist.