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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's not acceptable though. If it's acceptable for someone to talk about Jihad for revenge for "his people" (and we have no idea where those people are from..they are presumably Muslims, but they could be from anywhere) then what else is okay?
If you are cool with that then presumably you are cool with the people of Hartlepool demanding to kill asylum seekers after someone was murdered up there last week? Is that okay? Is that an understandable response?
It's indefensible really and it also undermines the perfectly legitimate and peaceful views of the overwhelming majority of people at pro Palestine marches on the weekend.
You are talking nonsense. Have you heard Braverman asking local Hartlepool police to arrest people calling for revenge against asylum seekers?
Revenge against the innocents is always 100% wrong. In this instance the lone call for "jihad" was contained by the police. This dreadful government is just interfering and playing performative politics to gain brownie points. Had they condemned both the initial Hamas terrorism and the Israeli retaliations they would gain more credibility and kudos.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
You are talking nonsense. Have you heard Braverman asking local Hartlepool police to arrest people calling for revenge against asylum seekers?
Revenge against the innocents is always 100% wrong. In this instance the lone call for "jihad" was contained by the police. This dreadful government is just interfering and playing performative politics to gain brownie points. Had they condemned both the initial Hamas terrorism and the Israeli retaliations they would gain more credibility and kudos.
We may be talking about different things. The video I have watched is certainly more than one person and it's in front of a banner talking about Muslim armies.
It's grim.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
We may be talking about different things. The video I have watched is certainly more than one person and it's in front of a banner talking about Muslim armies.
It's grim.
The point is that it's been contained by the police. There is absolutely no call for government interference here which is likely to make matters worse. There are times when less is more.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
The point is that it's been contained by the police. There is absolutely no call for government interference here which is likely to make matters worse. There are times when less is more.
Contained, as in they got away with it. If you invite religious or racial violence it's normally considered a crime. Perhaps everyone should get away with it now? I don't think that's a good idea.
Careful what you wish for!
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Why on Earth would we hear about Hamas helping people trapped under buildings? The news is controlled by Israel and the West.
There is absolutely no way I would advocate nor back a jihad, it's utterly wrong but the point is one can understand one lone figure uttering the word out of revenge for the slaughter of his innocent people. Just like the pretext for the Israeli bombardment of Gaza by the way. If there were Jewish voices in the streets calling for a revenge attack on Gaza I didn't hear our Government trying to incriminate them.
The point is that the Western nations should be even handed in this conflict and their failure to restrain Israeli carnage means they have blood on their hands.
So you think everything we see in the media, for example Al Jazeera news which is not exactly pro-Israel/West, is carefully vetted so as to be sure to exclude any images of Hamas fighters helping in rescue attempts? Pull the other one. Hamas have no interest in the common man, they are Jihadists pure and simple, just like ISIS.
Everyone has blood on their hands in this conflict not least the folk who supply Hamas with weapons which enables them to attack Israel in the first place.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Contained, as in they got away with it. If you invite religious or racial violence it's normally considered a crime. Perhaps everyone should get away with it now? I don't think that's a good idea.
Careful what you wish for!
Not at all it was contained. You might not be happy with it but it's ample evidence the police handled the situation successfully
You might wish to inflame tensions but thankfully not everyone wants to.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Not at all it was contained. You might not be happy with it but it's ample evidence the police handled the situation successfully
You might wish to inflame tensions but thankfully not everyone wants to.
Ha, interesting take!
I wonder if you will be this consistent on all racist or violent chanting in public going forward?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
I have no idea what the person or people calling for Jihad meant - probably the meaning James and Suella have given it, but maybe not.
Interesting that the BBC have chosen to give a definition of the word in their news report - and acknowledgement that outside the main western media (and social media) it is a word with a range of meanings:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67190812
"Jihad" literally means "effort" or "struggle" in Arabic. In Islam the main meaning is an internal struggle, such as a believer's struggle to live in accordance with their faith. Jihad can also be an outward struggle or war, which in Islamic teaching must be in self defence and within prescribed limits.
Somehow I doubt it was a call for an internal struggle to live a good life - but who knows? Whatever the intention it created a very unhelpful distraction from the main messages of the demonstrations - a gift to those who want to equate Palestinians and their supporters with the Hamas military wing.
Interesting also how much of the reporting is about how the demonstrations and political slogans in support of Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories could be upsetting to the UK Jewish community. Leaving aside the fact that a significant minority of the UK Jewish community was on those demonstrations, why is there no concern at all by politicians or the press that the 100% support for Israeli war crimes might be upsetting for the UK Palestinian diaspora or just people who object to mass murder for revenge?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
So you think everything we see in the media, for example Al Jazeera news which is not exactly pro-Israel/West, is carefully vetted so as to be sure to exclude any images of Hamas fighters helping in rescue attempts? Pull the other one. Hamas have no interest in the common man, they are Jihadists pure and simple, just like ISIS.
Everyone has blood on their hands in this conflict not least the folk who supply Hamas with weapons which enables them to attack Israel in the first place.
I totally agree everyone has blood on their hands and I'm not excusing the murderous Hamas terrorists for one moment. They are as oblivious to ordinary Palestine suffering as the Israeli government is.
However, an eye for an eye is not the way to settle this conflict. Hamas and Israel will ensure it prolongs itself far into the future. The only possibility of a settlement is for the bigger client powers to take the responsibility to settle it themselves.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Ha, interesting take!
I wonder if you will be this consistent on all racist or violent chanting in public going forward?
Hardly interesting, just purely factual. As much as you might dislike it further disturbances were prevented. I think if we can keep Braverman and her swivel eyed troops as far away from the situation we might ensure the peace is held.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I totally agree everyone has blood on their hands and I'm not excusing the murderous Hamas terrorists for one moment. They are as oblivious to ordinary Palestine suffering as the Israeli government is.
However, an eye for an eye is not the way to settle this conflict. Hamas and Israel will ensure it prolongs itself far into the future. The only possibility of a settlement is for the bigger client powers to take the responsibility to settle it themselves.
Sadly an eye-for-an-eye seems to be the philosophy of the Israeli government. As someone on Radio 4 said the other day an eye-for-an-eye means that eventually everybody ends up blind - not the ideal scenario.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Sadly an eye-for-an-eye seems to be the philosophy of the Israeli government. As someone on Radio 4 said the other day an eye-for-an-eye means that eventually everybody ends up blind - not the ideal scenario.
It originates in the Abrahamic religions so naturally the Christians, Jews and Moslems will all espouse it. But it's totally wrong. It only creates a continual cycle of bloody revenge and ups the ante every time. Something has to break it and restraint is a good starting position to take. It definitely claims the higher moral ground.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Hardly interesting, just purely factual. As much as you might dislike it further disturbances were prevented. I think if we can keep Braverman and her swivel eyed troops as far away from the situation we might ensure the peace is held.
Nah sorry, you can't get away with that shape shifting.
Further disturbance prevented at the expense of allowing racist and violent chanting on Britain's streets.
They should go after them after the event if not before. It's mental that you tolerate stuff like this tbh. It's so odd.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Nah sorry, you can't get away with that shape shifting.
Further disturbance prevented at the expense of allowing racist and violent chanting on Britain's streets.
They should go after them after the event if not before. It's mental that you tolerate stuff like this tbh. It's so odd.
I think it's rather more odd, and indeed disturbing that you wish to risk inflaming more tension just because of your ideological beliefs.
The Palestinian sympathisers have every right to demonstrate against the repression, abuse and slaughter of their people. If the Metropolitan Police managed to allow freedom of expression without major, violent disruption (which they achieved) then they should be applauded and should not have dangerous politicians interfering with their work and undermining their authority.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
It originates in the Abrahamic religions so naturally the Christians, Jews and Moslems will all espouse it. But it's totally wrong. It only creates a continual cycle of bloody revenge and ups the ante every time. Something has to break it and restraint is a good starting position to take. It definitely claims the higher moral ground.
With respect, Christians (of which I am one) do not espouse an eye-for-an-eye mentality. IMO Jews are still stuck in an Old Testament mentality and have mainly rejected Jesus (although I understand that there are an increasing number of Jewish Christians) hence I am not surprised that they still have that sense of revenge in their make-up. Sadly we get the world we deserve and it is heartbreaking to see the effect, especially on innocent children.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I think it's rather more odd, and indeed disturbing that you wish to risk inflaming more tension just because of your ideological beliefs.
The Palestinian sympathisers have every right to demonstrate against the repression, abuse and slaughter of their people. If the Metropolitan Police managed to allow freedom of expression without major, violent disruption (which they achieved) then they should be applauded and should not have dangerous politicians interfering with their work and undermining their authority.
Keep turning a blind eye to racism and violent chanting Dorcus. Maybe then it will go away.
How about a blind eye to other things too? Don't want to make a fuss after all.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Keep turning a blind eye to racism and violent chanting Dorcus. Maybe then it will go away.
How about a blind eye to other things too? Don't want to make a fuss after all.
There's no way I'd turn a blind eye to racism but I'm proud that, unlike you, I have no desire to instigate further violence in an already highly charged climate. Is it bloodlust and superiority that fuels your ignorance Jim?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
With respect, Christians (of which I am one) do not espouse an eye-for-an-eye mentality. IMO Jews are still stuck in an Old Testament mentality and have mainly rejected Jesus (although I understand that there are an increasing number of Jewish Christians) hence I am not surprised that they still have that sense of revenge in their make-up. Sadly we get the world we deserve and it is heartbreaking to see the effect, especially on innocent children.
You may not, I never said you did, but it is a doctrine entrenched in the Gospels, and within the other two Abrahamic texts as well.
It sounds like you may be one of the more enlightened Christians but not everyone is like you. We only need cast our gaze across the pond to see just how violent Christian sects can be in America. Generally, the Western world powers, borne out of the Abrahamic teachings will espouse the belief particularly when it comes to backing one of their own colonial settler states. The fact that Muslims hold similar beliefs only inflames the situation..
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
There's no way I'd turn a blind eye to racism but I'm proud that, unlike you, I have no desire to instigate further violence in an already highly charged climate. Is it bloodlust and superiority that fuels your ignorance Jim?
You literally are the one advocating turning a blind eye to it. That is absolutely what you are doing.
Police doing their job is it "bloodlust" and "superiority".
By your definition the police wouldn't arrest anyone, least of all anyone violent.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
You literally are the one advocating turning a blind eye to it. That is absolutely what you are doing.
Police doing their job is it "bloodlust" and "superiority".
By your definition the police wouldn't arrest anyone, least of all anyone violent.
Not at all, there are instances where arresting people is the correct thing to do. The event you are alluding to is definitely not one of them.
Thank Goodness you're not the Commissioner for Police.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Not at all, there are instances where arresting people is the correct thing to do. The event you are alluding to is definitely not one of them.
Thank Goodness you're not the Commissioner for Police.
Because it's racism aimed at Jews? I can't understand why you would tolerate people calling for jihad under a banner of a Muslim army in the UK and think that's okay.
Your argument seems to be that those being arrested would react angrily. But as I said, by that token you wouldn't arrest anyone.
Man beats his wife on street - don't arrest him, he could get violent.
I can't believe you are okay with it
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Because it's racism aimed at Jews? I can't understand why you would tolerate people calling for jihad under a banner of a Muslim army in the UK and think that's okay.
Your argument seems to be that those being arrested would react angrily. But as I said, by that token you wouldn't arrest anyone.
Man beats his wife on street - don't arrest him, he could get violent.
I can't believe you are okay with it
Again you're spouting nonsense.
A lone man called for "jihad". I doubt you read it properly but earlier in the thread Jon explained there are nuances to the word which non Muslims would probably not understand or interpret wrongly. This lone instance of someone chanting the word did not encite violence, therefore it was not illegal. Had the police arrested the man then violent scenes might well have occurred. The police managed the situation correctly.
Did not some Jewish people call for revenge after the Hamas attacks? Do you not think that might have been harrowing and offensive for Arab people? Yet there was no public condemnation over that.
It may boil your piss that one lone person cried "jihad" and was allowed to get away scot free but the sensible amongst us would prefer not to escalate tensions. In any case it's reported the Police had a quiet word with the chap afterwards. Top marks in my opinion and all credit to a professional approach.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
I have seen plenty of clips of Jewish protestors saying horrendous things. That is why people outside of the conflict need to stay objective and not get drawn into the emotional side of things, that just fans the flames.
There appears to be a narrative in the UK/world media that this conflict began the other week when Hamas murdered and kidnapped Israeli civilians. That is not objective and needs to be challenged because it provides cover to the Israeli response.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueArmy 86
Very powerful speech by Matt Carthy - the need more like him and Clare Daly to speak truth to power and hypocrisy, but instead we get the likes of Sunak and Starmer.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
Very powerful speech by Matt Carthy - the need more like him and Clare Daly to speak truth to power and hypocrisy, but instead we get the likes of Sunak and Starmer.
The government have even got the likes of TFL inducted into their crusade against the Palestinian people. Its been reported a tube driver shouted "Free Palestine" and has been suspended from his duties today.
No mention of "jihad" in any context in which it may be construed but just a simple plea for the end of occupation and oppression. When the government has everyone dancing to their tune it's easy to see why so much resentment is aroused.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Appalling scenes on BBC News from Gaza
They are sitting ducks
Kids lined up in hospitals , some dying waiting for help , others dying on the way in
Cease fire , humanitarian aid is being called by UN
Many more deaths if the Israelis go in
The Sec General of UN says its time to halt the operations
Israeli is a law unto itself
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
The government have even got the likes of TFL inducted into their crusade against the Palestinian people. Its been reported a tube driver shouted "Free Palestine" and has been suspended from his duties today.
No mention of "jihad" in any context in which it may be construed but just a simple plea for the end of occupation and oppression. When the government has everyone dancing to their tune it's easy to see why so much resentment is aroused.
it's a good job we have banned jews from using the tube.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
I see the UN Secretary is getting it in the neck this morning from the usual subjects in the UK press for saying that Israel has contravened international law. Why is it seemingly impossible to acknowledge the unspeakable horror of the Hamas attack on 7 October, while also pointing out Israel’s part in bringing it about and their dubious, in some respects, response to it? It’s not the simple case of good v evil that Netanyahu has tried to present it as.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-67212275
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
With respect, Christians (of which I am one) do not espouse an eye-for-an-eye mentality. IMO Jews are still stuck in an Old Testament mentality and have mainly rejected Jesus (although I understand that there are an increasing number of Jewish Christians) hence I am not surprised that they still have that sense of revenge in their make-up. Sadly we get the world we deserve and it is heartbreaking to see the effect, especially on innocent children.
We get the world we deserve in many respects because of religion
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I see the UN Secretary is getting it in the neck this morning from the usual subjects in the UK press for saying that Israel has contravened international law. Why is it seemingly impossible to acknowledge the unspeakable horror of the Hamas attack on 7 October, while also pointing out Israel’s part in bringing it about and their dubious, in some respects, response to it? It’s not the simple case of good v evil that Netanyahu has tried to present it as.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-67212275
The Telegraph headline is the worst.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
it's a good job we have banned jews from using the tube.
Do you think so? Have you recently joined Hamas?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I see the UN Secretary is getting it in the neck this morning from the usual subjects in the UK press for saying that Israel has contravened international law. Why is it seemingly impossible to acknowledge the unspeakable horror of the Hamas attack on 7 October, while also pointing out Israel’s part in bringing it about and their dubious, in some respects, response to it? It’s not the simple case of good v evil that Netanyahu has tried to present it as.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-67212275
I just watched an interview between Kay Burley and Darren Jones, Labour's Shadow Treasury Secretary. What a piece of shite!
Tried to come over all hand wringing and so sad at the terrible plight of the people of Gaza but....would he or Labour call for a ceasefire? Not a bit of it. Tried to deflect time after time after time. Just spouted the same old crap as the Tories.
No doubt he can go home to his family happy he lives a cosy, safe existence cocooned from danger. It puts me off voting Labour completely if this is what it's become.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I just watched an interview between Kay Burley and Darren Jones, Labour's Shadow Treasury Secretary. What a piece of shite!
Tried to come over all hand wringing and so sad at the terrible plight of the people of Gaza but....would he or Labour call for a ceasefire? Not a bit of it. Tried to deflect time after time after time. Just spouted the same old crap as the Tories.
No doubt he can go home to his family happy he lives a cosy, safe existence cocooned from danger. It puts me off voting Labour completely if this is what it's become.
The Labour Party know that any sense that they are not towing the line will lead to claims of anti semitism which of course is nothing to do with criticism of Israeli war policy
If the bombing continues then I can't see how they can keep up with this strategy
Ultimately thousands of people are going to die and I think Starmer has a duty to step up here
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The Labour Party know that any sense that they are not towing the line will lead to claims of anti semitism which of course is nothing to do with criticism of Israeli war policy
If the bombing continues then I can't see how they can keep up with this strategy
Ultimately thousands of people are going to die and I think Starmer has a duty to step up here
It sickens me. It's just pure calculation to win votes and devoid of humanity.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Contained, as in they got away with it. If you invite religious or racial violence it's normally considered a crime. Perhaps everyone should get away with it now? I don't think that's a good idea.
Careful what you wish for!
Ever been to Northern Ireland in July?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Ever been to Northern Ireland in July?
Bullseye
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Ever been to Northern Ireland in July?
YES, In the early 80,
Attended an orange day march (as a catholic)
Had to stay on a RAF base, in bandit County down
Got stopped early hours in the morning driving back from near Belfast by the British Army armed!!! back then, Belfast center was cordoned off, going for a piss in a boozer was quite nervy with a non Irish accent, the RAF base I stayed on, the Sgt, s mess was mortar bombed, my colleagues were playing snooker when it went off and literally shat themselves, one so frightened he immediately came home.
What do you want to know?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Ever been to Northern Ireland in July?
No.
Are you saying it's cool to call for religious murder on the streets of the UK days after a massacre then?
That's cool is it?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No.
Are you saying it's cool to call for religious murder on the streets of the UK days after a massacre then?
That's cool is it?
that isn't what jihad means is it?