Stay in the EU petition

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

I'm just asking because very similar predictions were made when America did their own version of Brexit, and things couldn't have turned out any better for them on the jobs and wages front.

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Left Europe in 1776, didn’t they?

I voted leave, for reasons I’ve already explained earlier in the thread, and I’d vote leave again.
I do feel though, that the embarrassing, shambolic way the government have handled the whole thing, should lead to another people’s vote.
Imo it needs to be taken out of the politicians hands. I feel it would be just for an independent panel, to go live on TV, explaining in layman’s terms, and as honestly as possible, the pros and cons of leaving or staying.
Then it should be put to the public again, and we stand by the new result.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

That’s the bloody point though, the Tories have wasted 3 years deliberating how to get Brexit without actually doing anything. It’s an absolute farce and how anyone would consider voting Conservative again in the next x years.

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Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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Corbyn isn’t a bad alternative, if he’d have been PM instead of Tory Blair perhaps a lot of our young lads would still be alive.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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Why did they submit article 50 before they decided what they wanted.

You still haven’t said why brexit is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I have no disdain for the 17 million who voted to leave.

I only have disdain for those who promised them a brexit that was almost impossible to achieve at the time and due to the negotiation process is now completely impossible to achieve.

Whatever anyone says they didn’t vote for a weaker economy and massive job losses. And that’s what we’ve already got, even if we revoke a lot of the damage has already been done.

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Many leavers are to stupid to realise the damage done, as you say, already happened as companies worldwide have left our shores. Who knows how long it will take to recover? Strange how some areas like the valleys, mid and west wales where enployment isn’t easy all voted to leave, cities like Cardiff, Bristol and London voted to remain. I can’t speak for London, which always seems to be booming, but Cardiff and Bristol certainly are. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the gap becomes yet bigger between Cardiff and the regions that voted to leave? You reap what you sow I guess.....

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Why did they submit article 50 before they decided what they wanted.

You still haven’t said why brexit is a good idea.

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You could be sitting and waiting for a loooooong time.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Why did they submit article 50 before they decided what they wanted.

You still haven’t said why brexit is a good idea.

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It beggars belief why they didn’t sort a deal out first, then we can vote on it. Would you agree to buy a house when you didn’t know where it was, how big it was or anything about it, other than the fact it was a house......:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by goats

It beggars belief why they didn’t sort a deal out first, then we can vote on it. Would you agree to buy a house when you didn’t know where it was, how big it was or anything about it, other than the fact it was a house......:facepalm:

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I know the EU wouldn’t negotiate until we submitted it but why not get what we want sorted first?

Also people saying Corbyn would be bad I’d love to know how he’d be worse than May or Cameron.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I know the EU wouldn’t negotiate until we submitted it but why not get what we want sorted first?

Also people saying Corbyn would be bad I’d love to know how he’d be worse than May or Cameron.

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I think Corbyn would have been good, he'd say or commit little, confuse the !uck out of them, not bring his party together as one , talk about the will of the people , hang on, which party am I talking about ?

Who's going to buy all the food from the EU which we currently consume? Who's going to buy all the German cars that we drive? We are a net contributor to the EU, so they lose more than us if we don't make a trade deal. The EU is also on the verge of a recession. The reason why they don't want us to leave is ideological, because other countries will follow, and it will be the end of the grand plan for an enlarged USEU.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Who's going to buy all the food from the EU which we currently consume?

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Are you for real? Where are we going to buy all the food that we get from the EU if we left without a deal? We won't have the trade deals in place for years. Not buying our food from the EU isn't going to affect the EU, it'll affect us when we're paying more for it and can't get what we want.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Are you for real? Where are we going to buy all the food that we get from the EU if we left without a deal? We won't have the trade deals in place for years. Not buying our food from the EU isn't going to affect the EU, it'll affect us when we're paying more for it and can't get what we want.

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So the EU are going to bin everything they sell to us, a country who are currently a net contributor to the EU coffers? It looks like they love recessions in the EU, since they are going to cut their nose off to spite their face.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So the EU are going to bin everything they sell to us, a country who are currently a net contributor to the EU coffers? It looks like they love recessions in the EU, since they are going to cut their nose off to spite their face.

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I couldn't give a rat's arse what they do with it. Are you suggesting that the EU should offer us whatever we want just to sell food to us and that makes them more desperate than us, who won't be able to cover the loss of food? If that is your opinion, please seek help.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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Conservative and DUP (paid for whereas many other things haven't been - the NHS for example) have 324 seats in House of Commons and with Sinn Fein abstaining that is a majority. At what point has Westminster been able to have a majority support any concrete leave policy in the past three years despite this? It's completely disingenuous to say issue is with opposition parties when May has spent entire time trying to hold her government together, and characters like Boris quit their ministerial position in protest....only to reverse their decision when they might progress their careers on the back of it. Rees-Mogg turned from saying May's deal turned us into a slave state into now supporting it because he thinks it's the right move tactically!?!

It's completely disingenuous to say issue is with opposition parties.

Which leaders of the Leave campaign do you trust to do Brexit correctly? I'd argue Kate Hoey probably has more credibility than most others at this point.

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Originally Posted by surge

Conservative and DUP (paid for whereas many other things haven't been - the NHS for example) have 324 seats in House of Commons and with Sinn Fein abstaining that is a majority. At what point has Westminster been able to have a majority support any concrete leave policy in the past three years despite this? It's completely disingenuous to say issue is with opposition parties when May has spent entire time trying to hold her government together, and characters like Boris quit their ministerial position in protest....only to reverse their decision when they might progress their careers on the back of it. Rees-Mogg turned from saying May's deal turned us into a slave state into now supporting it because he thinks it's the right move tactically!?!

It's completely disingenuous to say issue is with opposition parties.

Which leaders of the Leave campaign do you trust to do Brexit correctly? I'd argue Kate Hoey probably has more credibility than most others at this point.

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Wahey! I've been arguing this on social media for about a month now, with no-one willing to provide a coherent answer. I doubt you'll get one on here.

https://twitter.com/GPEArthur/status...494437377?s=19

I see Boris is now backing the deal because he thinks he'll get a crack at the top job if he does, the shameless self interested Kent.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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But they haven't spent three years negotiating. They wasted months on a general election and David Davies spent something like four hours in meetings with the EU over the course of a year.

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Originally Posted by Arfur Europe

https://twitter.com/GPEArthur/status...494437377?s=19

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Johnson and Gove looked like they were about to cry on Brexit night. Charlatans the lot of them.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Perhaps not such a farce when you consider the alternatives (Corbyn or Cable !!). The Conservatives have spent the last three years negotiating a deal to leave the EU, as they were given a mandate to do, whereas all the other parties have done is moan, complain and block it without putting forward any alternatives until the last few days or merely stating that they wanted to reverse the referendum.

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Corbyn might be bad. We know May is bad. He can't be worse.

Raab couldn't be arsed to read the GFA. Davis turned up with ****ing printer paper to meetings to show he'd done work, which he hadn't. Johnson and Gove believe what they'll want if they have a sniff of power. JRM's dad wrote a book on how to make money in a crisis, and he's made £7m and counting. This is the level of shithousery you're dealing with. This Conservative government is the worst government that you could ever conceive and it's not even ****ing close.

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Originally Posted by lardy

But they haven't spent three years negotiating. They wasted months on a general election and David Davies spent something like four hours in meetings with the EU over the course of a year.

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Would that have made a difference? We're the ones leaving. The EU have their legislations, laws etc. Any deals we want have to fit in with EU framework.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Would that have made a difference? We're the ones leaving. The EU have their legislations, laws etc. Any deals we want have to fit in with EU framework.

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They'll accept a softer Brexit but May's "red lines" get in the way. How it took until a few months ago for our first deal to come out is embarrassing. May is doing her best to kick her deal down the road until we have no option to accept it, hence today's announcement. She knew the DUP and ERG wouldn't back her deal but it convinced enough Tory moderates to hold out for her deal, and her deal alone.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

They'll accept a softer Brexit but May's "red lines" get in the way. How it took until a few months ago for our first deal to come out is embarrassing. May is doing her best to kick her deal down the road until we have no option to accept it, hence today's announcement. She knew the DUP and ERG wouldn't back her deal but it convinced enough Tory moderates to hold out for her deal, and her deal alone.

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Precisely.

"Which leaders of the Leave campaign do you trust to do Brexit correctly?"

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Wahey! I've been arguing this on social media for about a month now, with no-one willing to provide a coherent answer. I doubt you'll get one on here.

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Genuine question for anyone who would still vote leave. I won't respond to any names you suggest (other than perhaps thanking you) but I would like to know which politician and/or political pundit is now considered the credible voice of leave. Is it Michael Gove or Kate Hoey? Is there someone I'm missing?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I couldn't give a rat's arse what they do with it. Are you suggesting that the EU should offer us whatever we want just to sell food to us and that makes them more desperate than us, who won't be able to cover the loss of food? If that is your opinion, please seek help.

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It's not just food though is it. I am talking about everything that we buy from them, and the arrangement benefits them more than it does us.

You got to love the way May is desperate to push her shite deal through, so desperate that if done she will walk off into the sunset with her pockets lined heavily no doubt a la Dave carmeron style. Corbyn seems to have moral values which sets him apart from your average MP, but he will never get enough backing being to left. Only centre labour like Blair will ever win in the UK. If anything ever good came from this shambles, it’s we need a new political system, maybe 5 or 6 smaller parties running.
But certain policies set in stone that They can’t f**k about with every 4 years and blame previous governments for any issues.
I genuinely fear for my kids future with the idiots we have in charge at the moment.....:frown:

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Originally Posted by goats

You got to love the way May is desperate to push her shite deal through, so desperate that if done she will walk off into the sunset with her pockets lined heavily no doubt a la Dave carmeron style. Corbyn seems to have moral values which sets him apart from your average MP, but he will never get enough backing being to left. Only centre labour like Blair will ever win in the UK. If anything ever good came from this shambles, it’s we need a new political system, maybe 5 or 6 smaller parties running.
But certain policies set in stone that They can’t f**k about with every 4 years and blame previous governments for any issues.
I genuinely fear for my kids future with the idiots we have in charge at the moment.....:frown:

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Couldn’t agree more with this.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Who's going to buy all the food from the EU which we currently consume? Who's going to buy all the German cars that we drive? We are a net contributor to the EU, so they lose more than us if we don't make a trade deal. The EU is also on the verge of a recession. The reason why they don't want us to leave is ideological, because other countries will follow, and it will be the end of the grand plan for an enlarged USEU.

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One of the myths was that the German car industry would ride to the rescue of Brexiters in pushing for an agreement that would favour our ‘gallant’ brexiteers.

That myth has been utterly debunked as well as that other bollocks about they need us more than we need them. It reads like Oz from Auf Wiedersen Pet in the one episode talking about how needed they were and how the could lay down the law.

That was bollocks too.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Who's going to buy all the food from the EU which we currently consume? Who's going to buy all the German cars that we drive? We are a net contributor to the EU, so they lose more than us if we don't make a trade deal. The EU is also on the verge of a recession. The reason why they don't want us to leave is ideological, because other countries will follow, and it will be the end of the grand plan for an enlarged USEU.

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Are you sure you don't want to cram any other clichés in?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

It's not just food though is it. I am talking about everything that we buy from them, and the arrangement benefits them more than it does us.

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Oh dear, you were doing so well pretending that you were thinking for yourself.

I buy more from Tesco than they buy from me, I should probably get down there and tell them how I want the store to look.

The sad thing about this whole mess is that this thread has thrown up a better discussion that has been had in the media and parliament.

I’m unapologetic in believing that leaving the EU is a catastrophic cluster**** and that the referendum was incredibly premature to .. however if the deal May struck was at least reasonable and making the best of (in my opinion) a bad situation at least it would have been something to unite us. It wasn’t and it isn’t and if never will be.

Part of the problem is that while the people who voted to remain are pretty united in what remain means .... stay in the EU and help reform an continue to try and get a better deal for the UK, the people who voted leave have very different opinions on what leaving looks like... no deal, Mays deal, another deal etc. And that is where we are with no competent leaders to unite the country as they are all jostling for their own positions and careers

The way the politicians have been so utterly incompetent (labour and conservatives) is incredibly sad.

I would say that many leavers I spoke too are a little embarrassed that they are now being represented (by default) by the likes of JRM, BJ and NF... three people who have never, will never represent or relate to working class people or know what we want and need.

Private jets, off shore accounts, shifting business interests outside the uk and in JRM case spouting Etonian nonsense and being an utter corkscrew to anyone who earns less than a million pounds a year.

The U.K. has now taken so long to exit we’re probably going to have to take part in the election for the “unelected bureaucrats”

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Oh dear, you were doing so well pretending that you were thinking for yourself.

I buy more from Tesco than they buy from me, I should probably get down there and tell them how I want the store to look.

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Do you have a business selling FMCG or any any other products to supermarkets?

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Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2

One of the myths was that the German car industry would ride to the rescue of Brexiters in pushing for an agreement that would favour our ‘gallant’ brexiteers.

That myth has been utterly debunked as well as that other bollocks about they need us more than we need them. It reads like Oz from Auf Wiedersen Pet in the one episode talking about how needed they were and how the could lay down the law.

That was bollocks too.

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So The German car industry are going to absorb the sales hit? The EU are also facing a potential trade war with America, that's a probable 25% tarriff on many items including motor vehicles. This is not good news for an economic block that is already close to recession, and Germany can't even meet their NATO funding obligations.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

In a democracy, is the will of the people 3 years ago more important than the will of the people now? 3 years ago I bought a packet of flour to make a loaf of bread. It's still in the cupboard, lots of small crawly things in there now that look like they might add some crunch to my loaf. Am I still required to abide by my decision of 3 years ago or am I allowed to change my mind and buy a new packet of flour?

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Does that mean if we have another vote and the result is the same then we should have another one in 3 years time because we may have changed our minds, like your flour might get weevils, and then another 3 years after that and so on? I can see the rest of europe loving us popping in and out.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Does that mean if we have another vote and the result is the same then we should have another one in 3 years time because we may have changed our minds, like your flour might get weevils, and then another 3 years after that and so on? I can see the rest of europe loving us popping in and out.

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You are not supposed to point out the gaping holes in people logical arguments, just pretent that you are scared or your own shadow and talk in a dramatic fashion with lots of references to doom and gloom :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Corbyn isn’t a bad alternative, if he’d have been PM instead of Tory Blair perhaps a lot of our young lads would still be alive.

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Corbyn would be a disaster for this countyry as bad as any bad Brexit. as soon as he won loads of investment and contracts would flow out of this country like a waterfall.
And he would spend the country back into poverty again just as every labour government always has done. Far left loons begin to take over, the likes od Derek Hatton cause chaos for other political ends and then the country has to vote the tories back in to clean up the mess. We ger pissed off with the austerity needed and when the books look better we vote labour back in and the whole sequence starts again.
Remeber the note left by one of Brown's ministers, "There's no money left, we spent it all" (Paraphrased)

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Are you for real? Where are we going to buy all the food that we get from the EU if we left without a deal? We won't have the trade deals in place for years. Not buying our food from the EU isn't going to affect the EU, it'll affect us when we're paying more for it and can't get what we want.

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This country is more than capable of producing all the food we need, and feed a lot of other people too. Modern farming methods make it possible. Subisidies to not grow things so we can help other countries farmers by buying there merely stifles this ability, it doesn't make it less possible.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

This country is more than capable of producing all the food we need, and feed a lot of other people too. Modern farming methods make it possible. Subisidies to not grow things so we can help other countries farmers by buying there merely stifles this ability, it doesn't make it less possible.

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WHAT? We import 48% of our food. Don’t be ridiculous.