Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Good that some leading experts are excited by the latest developments unlike our First Minister. I was astounded at the stupid negative comments he made to the press yesterday. He was very negative about Pfizer's claims...." You would always want to read carefully what a particular competitor in this field says on their own behalf".

He doesn't realise that all Pfizer have done is report on the findings of a large double blind study, where the doctors involved did not know if patients were getting vaccine or a placebo until the code is broken. This is how medicines are tested worldwide. He really is anti-private industry.

Then he says "we will decide how to use it once it's available". Wales he says will be responsible for storage and distribution as well.

The facts are that supplies could possibly be available within the next 4-6 weeks. There is limited UK capacity for specialist distribution and storage at -80c, so he and Gethin had better get a move on and get a few logistic contracts sorted.

As for deciding who will get it first, well that will be sorted "once it's available". It needs sorting now. It's not as if you will be able to pop over to your GP for it.

Piss up and brewery come to mind

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To be fair, I heard Johnson say that the UK Government's order for the vaccine included the devolved Governments and this article confirms that;-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54879535

so what Drakeford was saying was that it would be for the Welsh Government to manage once they had received their allocation, which I would hope would be the policy the UK Government is following.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

To be fair, I heard Johnson say that the UK Government's order for the vaccine included the devolved Governments and this article confirms that;-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54879535

so what Drakeford was saying was that it would be for the Welsh Government to manage once they had received their allocation, which I would hope would be the policy the UK Government is following.

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And Mark Drakeford did say that Wales share will be based on population, so approx 5% of UK. So he knows what he's likely to get which means he should be into planning the vaccination programme now.
Vaccines will happen, if not Pfizer's then AZ. They all work on RNA in similar ways so I expect the AZ one to be just as good, and with the same cold storage issues.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

And Mark Drakeford did say that Wales share will be based on population, so approx 5% of UK. So he knows what he's likely to get which means he should be into planning the vaccination programme now.
Vaccines will happen, if not Pfizer's then AZ. They all work on RNA in similar ways so I expect the AZ one to be just as good, and with the same cold storage issues.

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I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that any Government would be sitting on their hands doing nothing in the situation the Welsh Government now finds itself in, do you really believe that they will not start thinking of how it is allocated before the vaccine has been approved and is in their hands?

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Good that some leading experts are excited by the latest developments unlike our First Minister. I was astounded at the stupid negative comments he made to the press yesterday. He was very negative about Pfizer's claims...." You would always want to read carefully what a particular competitor in this field says on their own behalf".

He doesn't realise that all Pfizer have done is report on the findings of a large double blind study, where the doctors involved did not know if patients were getting vaccine or a placebo until the code is broken. This is how medicines are tested worldwide. He really is anti-private industry.

Then he says "we will decide how to use it once it's available". Wales he says will be responsible for storage and distribution as well.

The facts are that supplies could possibly be available within the next 4-6 weeks. There is limited UK capacity for specialist distribution and storage at -80c, so he and Gethin had better get a move on and get a few logistic contracts sorted.

As for deciding who will get it first, well that will be sorted "once it's available". It needs sorting now. It's not as if you will be able to pop over to your GP for it.

Piss up and brewery come to mind

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Drakeford is absolutely right to give a cautious message. nothing is certain with this vaccine yet, and some people are already talking as though the whole thing will be done and dusted within a few weeks.
this coupled with us coming out of lockdown could send a very bad message that people don't need to be as careful going about their day to day activities, which absolutely could lead to people dying. I would much prefer a leader who chooses their words carefully and thinks about the potential consequences of them than just waffles on like the UK prime minister.

if you think Drakeford can't organise a. piss up in a brewery then what do you think about Johnson ?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that any Government would be sitting on their hands doing nothing in the situation the Welsh Government now finds itself in, do you really believe that they will not start thinking of how it is allocated before the vaccine has been approved and is in their hands?

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To quote Drakeford. " We will decide how to use it once it's available"

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Drakeford is absolutely right to give a cautious message. nothing is certain with this vaccine yet, and some people are already talking as though the whole thing will be done and dusted within a few weeks.
this coupled with us coming out of lockdown could send a very bad message that people don't need to be as careful going about their day to day activities, which absolutely could lead to people dying. I would much prefer a leader who chooses their words carefully and thinks about the potential consequences of them than just waffles on like the UK prime minister.

if you think Drakeford can't organise a. piss up in a brewery then what do you think about Johnson ?

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He wasn't just being cautious he was more or less suggesting that the Pfizer data should not be trusted.

As for him thinking about potential consequences, he is easing lockdown in Merthyr a place with the highest incidence in UK because his government may lose credibility if he didn't. What could the potential consequences of that be?

Then you look at the shoppers in Cardiff yesterday and wonder if the blanket easing of lockdown is going to come back to bite him.

Johnson and his handling of this has been a disaster from day 1.

While I still think him and his front bench are a disaster and the worst govt in living memory I thought yesterday was his best performance by some distance.

I expected a fist pumping everything thing will soon be ok performance. But no very cautious , stick to the rules etc.

Very similar to Drakeford and Sturgeon.

Staggered really that anyone would criticise what Drakeford said. Particularly from Tories when the bloke they voted in did the same.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

He wasn't just being cautious he was more or less suggesting that the Pfizer data should not be trusted.

As for him thinking about potential consequences, he is easing lockdown in Merthyr a place with the highest incidence in UK because his government may lose credibility if he didn't. What could the potential consequences of that be?

Then you look at the shoppers in Cardiff yesterday and wonder if the blanket easing of lockdown is going to come back to bite him.

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I said something similar and there was a deadly hush except for one poster. The UK should act as one in a pandemic. Isn't it strange that, at the beginning of this pandemic, many people were criticising the government's lack of quarantine arrangements for those arriving in the UK from abroad when now we can't even adopt arrangements to quarantine parts of the UK?

The cessation of the firebreak in areas where there are high concentrations of the virus is shameful.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that any Government would be sitting on their hands doing nothing in the situation the Welsh Government now finds itself in, do you really believe that they will not start thinking of how it is allocated before the vaccine has been approved and is in their hands?

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Theyve probably more or less decided on how it will be allocated.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Theyve probably more or less decided on how it will be allocated.

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Of course they have and I bet the arrangements will be the same, or virtually the same, in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Of course they have and I bet the arrangements will be the same, or virtually the same, in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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Oh, there'll be little variations I'm sure -just to show how different we are. England in the right arm, Wales opting for the left..

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I said something similar and there was a deadly hush except for one poster. The UK should act as one in a pandemic. Isn't it strange that, at the beginning of this pandemic, many people were criticising the government's lack of quarantine arrangements for those arriving in the UK from abroad when now we can't even adopt arrangements to quarantine parts of the UK?

The cessation of the firebreak in areas where there are high concentrations of the virus is shameful.

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Don't forget that the people in the areas of high concentration would have caught the virus before or as the lockdown was starting. You would have to expect that the number of people actually catching it today would be far lower.

Imagine the WAG had waited until England had acted to impose a lockdown, Merthyr would be running out of control and it would be an absolute disaster.

At the time Wales announced the lockdown all the Tories on here were saying it wasn't needed, the rates of infection were low and it would harm business.

England announce a much longer lockdown and all of a sudden Wales are leaving theirs too early.

The sheer mental gymnastics required by some on here to be able to always find a way to criticise Welsh Labour is utterly baffling.

The UK should have gone into a coordinated lockdown to tie in with half term and with the knowledge furlough would be extended.

Didnt happen because the UK govt dithered delayed and eventually did a massive U turn.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Oh, there'll be little variations I'm sure -just to show how different we are. England in the right arm, Wales opting for the left..

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And based on the UK (English) Government's record on the virus so far, I say (to borrow from another country) Vive Le Difference!

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Don't forget that the people in the areas of high concentration would have caught the virus before or as the lockdown was starting. You would have to expect that the number of people actually catching it today would be far lower.

Imagine the WAG had waited until England had acted to impose a lockdown, Merthyr would be running out of control and it would be an absolute disaster.

At the time Wales announced the lockdown all the Tories on here were saying it wasn't needed, the rates of infection were low and it would harm business.

England announce a much longer lockdown and all of a sudden Wales are leaving theirs too early.

The sheer mental gymnastics required by some on here to be able to always find a way to criticise Welsh Labour is utterly baffling.

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Thank you for replying. Your post seems to believe I was making a political point. I wasn't. For what's its worth I believe either England should have followed Wales (to the extent all of the Welsh arrangements made sense which they don't) or Wales should have followed England. There should be a coordinated response by all three nations as I stated. Instead we have a mish mash of policies with Wales coming out of their mini lockdown allowing people from high infected areas travelling into areas where there are lower levels such as the people travelling to Cardiff yesterday presumably to buy their inessential items which bizarrely they couldn't purchase until yesterday.

I understand your point about the possibility of Welsh hospitals being overloaded so agree the need for the Welsh firebreak was obvious especially as the Welsh Nightingale hospital is not ready. In my opinion it would have been better if England would have entered their lockdown at the same time as Wales.

Just to clarify your point about the arrangements in England. When lockdown 2 ends on 2 December we will revert to the three tier system. That is very clear. Sorry but I don't know what is happening in Wales but from my outside perspective there seems to be a free for all where people can move about freely, drink in bars, pubs and restaurants and shop anywhere with no restrictions.

Of course if you agree that these arrangements are acceptable then that is your prerogative. It just so happens I don't but it's not for political reasons. This pandemic should not be about Labour v Conservative; it's far more important than that.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Of course they have and I bet the arrangements will be the same, or virtually the same, in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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The man himself, Mark Drakeford said" we will decide how to use it once it's available"

So if you reckon it's already been sorted you are suggesting that he's not being truthful.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

The man himself, Mark Drakeford said" we will decide how to use it once it's available"

So if you reckon it's already been sorted you are suggesting that he's not being truthful.

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He was asked a direct question on who decides how its used. This was to clarify who decides the UK government or the WAG. He said they will decide.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

He was asked a direct question on who decides how its used. This was to clarify who decides the UK government or the WAG. He said they will decide.

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Not quite. He said that the UK Gov purchases it and we get a share based on population.(.ie 5%). Then he said "we will decide how to use it when it is available."

All newspapers today have the vaccine as front page news, experts say its a breakthrough, WHO says same. Wales says, be cautious the data needs to be read carefully because its from a particular competitor in this field and published on their own behalf.

My daily newspaper had the table of action listing priority patients for England, nowt from Wales.

I hope for our sakes that our Wales government realises that they could have enough vaccine within a few weeks to protect 250,000 people in Wales.( 2 jabs each) They have to arrange specialist storage and distribution at extremely low temperatures and produce a priority list and an action plan.

This is nothing to do with party politics, just a siren call from me that I do not think Wales has considered mass vaccination as an imminent possibility. I'd love to be proved wrong.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Not quite. He said that the UK Gov purchases it and we get a share based on population.(.ie 5%). Then he said "we will decide how to use it when it is available."

All newspapers today have the vaccine as front page news, experts say its a breakthrough, WHO says same. Wales says, be cautious the data needs to be read carefully because its from a particular competitor in this field and published on their own behalf.

My daily newspaper had the table of action listing priority patients for England, nowt from Wales.

I hope for our sakes that our Wales government realises that they could have enough vaccine within a few weeks to protect 250,000 people in Wales.( 2 jabs each) They have to arrange specialist storage and distribution at extremely low temperatures and produce a priority list and an action plan.

This is nothing to do with party politics, just a siren call from me that I do not think Wales has considered mass vaccination as an imminent possibility. I'd love to be proved wrong.

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"Nothing to do with party politics" :hehe::hehe::hehe:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

The man himself, Mark Drakeford said" we will decide how to use it once it's available"

So if you reckon it's already been sorted you are suggesting that he's not being truthful.

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He's being a politician and he's giving a political answer because he doesn't want it to look like the Welsh Government automatically follows the UK Government's lead - it's just that I suspect that they will do in this case.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Not quite. He said that the UK Gov purchases it and we get a share based on population.(.ie 5%). Then he said "we will decide how to use it when it is available."

All newspapers today have the vaccine as front page news, experts say its a breakthrough, WHO says same. Wales says, be cautious the data needs to be read carefully because its from a particular competitor in this field and published on their own behalf.

My daily newspaper had the table of action listing priority patients for England, nowt from Wales.

I hope for our sakes that our Wales government realises that they could have enough vaccine within a few weeks to protect 250,000 people in Wales.( 2 jabs each) They have to arrange specialist storage and distribution at extremely low temperatures and produce a priority list and an action plan.

This is nothing to do with party politics, just a siren call from me that I do not think Wales has considered mass vaccination as an imminent possibility. I'd love to be proved wrong.

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Im certain they know and are preparing for the start of vaccination. I saw no difference in Drakeford or Johnsons response.

I certainly didnt read his answer as we will decide what to do when we get it.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Not quite. He said that the UK Gov purchases it and we get a share based on population.(.ie 5%). Then he said "we will decide how to use it when it is available."

All newspapers today have the vaccine as front page news, experts say its a breakthrough, WHO says same. Wales says, be cautious the data needs to be read carefully because its from a particular competitor in this field and published on their own behalf.

My daily newspaper had the table of action listing priority patients for England, nowt from Wales.

I hope for our sakes that our Wales government realises that they could have enough vaccine within a few weeks to protect 250,000 people in Wales.( 2 jabs each) They have to arrange specialist storage and distribution at extremely low temperatures and produce a priority list and an action plan.

This is nothing to do with party politics, just a siren call from me that I do not think Wales has considered mass vaccination as an imminent possibility. I'd love to be proved wrong.

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I would assume that the arrangements to store and distribute a potential vaccine that looks like it'll be available in a few weeks are being looked at by someone., surely you don't believe they're really just sitting on their hands?

However, I think it is right for Drakeford to exercise caution, as if he came out with a statement saying that "hooray the vaccine is nearly here, we're all saved" then you'd see a lot of people suddenly caring a lot less about social distancing measures.

It is also worth considering that there are other companies working on vaccines - one or more of these may turn out to be more effective than the Pfizer one, or not require such extreme temperatures to give them a useable shelf life. So I can understand the comments about it being one companies message.

If we get the Pfizer vaccine here in Wales, and it sits around for weeks because we have nothing put in place for it, while people are dying in large numbers then yes absolutely the blame would stand at the door of the Welsh govermnent - however it is just speculation that that is going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

"Nothing to do with party politics" :hehe::hehe::hehe:

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He is very fond of knee jerk reaction

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As for deciding who will get it first, well that will be sorted "once it's available". It needs sorting now. It's not as if you will be able to pop over to your GP for it.

Piss up and brewery come to mind

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Biggest Clown on TV

Mark Drakeford.

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Like he said....nothing to do with party politics

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

He's being a politician and he's giving a political answer because he doesn't want it to look like the Welsh Government automatically follows the UK Government's lead - it's just that I suspect that they will do in this case.

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This playing politics is getting ridiculous on all sides now.

It is far too important for our leaders to play party games

All parties responded cautiously yesterday.

The only real difference was when few tougher questions were asked Drakeford answered clearly and confidenly whereas Boris immediately starts stuttering , stammering and struggled to get his sentences out.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

This playing politics is getting ridiculous on all sides now.

It is far too important for our leaders to play party games

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I dont think they did yesterday to be fair.

I thought Drakeford and Johnson did what they should. Be cautious.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Im certain they know and are preparing for the start of vaccination. I saw no difference in Drakeford or Johnsons response.

I certainly didnt read his answer as we will decide what to do when we get it.

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How else do you interpret the quote then.

Let's put it this way

If Boris said we will decide how to use it when it is available, Sir Keir would (rightly) rip him apart at the next PMQ's for not having a plan!!

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Originally Posted by Hilts

All parties responded cautiously yesterday.

The only real difference was when few tougher questions were asked Drakeford answered clearly and confidenly whereas Boris immediately starts stuttering , stammering and struggled to get his sentences out.

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All these arguments are really unnecessary and disguise the fact that the likely availability of the vaccine should be celebrated and not be the subject of political differences.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

All these arguments are really unnecessary and disguise the fact that the likely availability of the vaccine should be celebrated and not be the subject of political differences.

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I think the caution from the government was more to stop people coming out of a lockdown and just acting like things are normal.

It's definitely a massive thing to be celebrated but we still need to get to the point where people are getting it before letting our guard down.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

All these arguments are really unnecessary and disguise the fact that the likely availability of the vaccine should be celebrated and not the subject of political differences.

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Of course.

Its great news. Im actually stunned. 90% effective. Isnt the flu 50%?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

All these arguments are really unnecessary and disguise the fact that the likely availability of the vaccine should be celebrated and not be the subject of political differences.

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It's fair enough for the papers or the general public to celebrate this, but I wouldn't want Drakeford or Johnson celebrating this yet, cautious but hopeful seems to be the right tone at this stage.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Of course.

Its great news. Im actually stunned. 90% effective. Isnt the flu 50%?

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Yeah 50-60% on a good year I think.

The good thing about it being 90% is even if some people are reticent to take it, the herd immunity isn't as important when it's this strong.

I hope they can release some info to show people vaccines don't have latent issues (other than in one case I think) and the way these are made there is almost no chance of latent issues.

You might get short term side effects like the flu jab but as long as what they've told us about the trials is right they're perfectly safe.

Conspiracy theorists will have a field day though.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I would assume that the arrangements to store and distribute a potential vaccine that looks like it'll be available in a few weeks are being looked at by someone., surely you don't believe they're really just sitting on their hands?

However, I think it is right for Drakeford to exercise caution, as if he came out with a statement saying that "hooray the vaccine is nearly here, we're all saved" then you'd see a lot of people suddenly caring a lot less about social distancing measures.

It is also worth considering that there are other companies working on vaccines - one or more of these may turn out to be more effective than the Pfizer one, or not require such extreme temperatures to give them a useable shelf life. So I can understand the comments about it being one companies message.

If we get the Pfizer vaccine here in Wales, and it sits around for weeks because we have nothing put in place for it, while people are dying in large numbers then yes absolutely the blame would stand at the door of the Welsh govermnent - however it is just speculation that that is going to happen.

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I hope e get several effective vaccines. Pfizer is good news because the others in development work in a similar way. They will all need to be stored in the same way as the Pfizer vaccine. I doubt others will be more effective than 90%. 50% is considered good

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Like he said....nothing to do with party politics

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I’d be saying the same things whatever party the person represented

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Originally Posted by Rjk

It's fair enough for the papers or the general public to celebrate this, but I wouldn't want Drakeford or Johnson celebrating this yet, cautious but hopeful seems to be the right tone at this stage.

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Drakeford disappointed me as he suggested that the data should be read carefully because it came from a a competitor company in this field. The data was published by Pfizer but it was the results of a 43,000 patient study conducted in a controlled way by doctors in many parts of the world.

Bojo just stumbled through and said it was good news.

The study is exciting because the results are so good and the side effects apparently low. Further Pfizer, like AZ, has taken a business risk and already made millions of doses.

If our regulatory authorities approved the drug for use today it could be leaving the factory tomorrow. This isn't a maybe in the future thing, this is now. Even Pfizer say its ready to roll.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And based on the UK (English) Government's record on the virus so far, I say (to borrow from another country) Vive Le Difference!

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I'm not sure anything he's done differently to England has had any material difference. I'm not sure that much that has been done/not done in other countries has had much impact. Italy, France and Spain have imposed far more strict lockdowns/restrictions/curfews that the UK, yet have all had pretty much the same 'results'. Wales has a few built up areas - the rest is mountains and sheep, just like Cornwall. High figures in the Valleys, low in the hills. Mr Pastry & Co. haven't been that effective, despite what us Welsh would like to think..

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I’d be saying the same things whatever party the person represented

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Apologies. I got you mixed up with someone with a similar user name who has heaped the blame for England's frailties on government agencies, civil servants and scientists and Wales's on governing politicians

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Apologies. I got you mixed up with someone with a similar user name who has heaped the blame for England's frailties on government agencies, civil servants and scientists and Wales's on governing politicians

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I'm pleased that you spotted your error

Just 444 new cases reported in Wales;-

https://public.tableau.com/profile/p...eadlinesummary

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I'm not sure anything he's done differently to England has had any material difference. I'm not sure that much that has been done/not done in other countries has had much impact. Italy, France and Spain have imposed far more strict lockdowns/restrictions/curfews that the UK, yet have all had pretty much the same 'results'. Wales has a few built up areas - the rest is mountains and sheep, just like Cornwall. High figures in the Valleys, low in the hills. Mr Pastry & Co. haven't been that effective, despite what us Welsh would like to think..

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It isn't just the Welsh who think so - polls in England have consistently shown that people there think the Welsh government has handled it more effectively than the UK government.

I have plenty of sympathy for all of the European governments trying to feel their way through this, as it is something that is completely new to all of us. I'm sure every country has made mistakes, and learned a lot, but we are still a long way from being able to deliver the kind of response they saw in the far east IMO.

It just seems to me that a lot of the worst mistakes that I'm aware of have come from the UK government - undoubtedly that'll be because they are under the most scrutiny here, but still I'd challenge anyone to say they've done well.

Late to lock down twice, Test and trace, PPE procurement, really confusing messaging to the public (barnard castle etc), the ventilator project

The other nations in the UK aren't performing MUCH differently in terms of outcomes in fairness.

At wales' door I suppose you can say they were also late to lockdown in the first instance, and perhaps in a couple of weeks we'll be saying that the 2nd lockdown should have lasted longer. They built a hospital in the Stadium that they didn't need, then dismantled it and are building another one.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples for both.