Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
such arrogance
could it be that previously there were too many policies and now there are too few?
the UK will always be won in the centre ground. The Tories know this, and Labour under Blair knew this. Sadly, most on the left aren't aware of this, or if they are, they prefer behaving like Citizen Smith than running the risk of getting into power.
I'd buy a car based on the sound it made. it its a noisy V10 or V12 then I'm buying it.
The centre within UK politics has moved all over the place since 97. Politics is all about momentum, small things take a grip and destroy otherwise decent campaigns (May 17, Corbyn 19). Labour are constantly fighting fires and can't control the message, policy comes a distance second to 'credibility'. The evidence of this is simple, the Tories have won multiple elections without revealing any policy detail.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?
To make myself clear (although it was already). Almost everybody is a dumbo, even the people who agree with me, even me, definitely you.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
it can be a general characteristic of those on the left that they believe someone who votes differently from them is either stupid or selfish. Those on the left tend to be less tolerant of those who hold differing political opinions.
the electorate should be free to make up their own minds about what is important to them and how they wish to vote. It is a fundamental principle of a functioning democracy that we have alternative viewpoints. Democracy is something many left wingers are against, as evidenced by certain posters comments in this thread
You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.
Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.
What value is a vote by someone forced to cast one?
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.
Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.
I've not said I'm impartial and I most certainly don't hate the left - alhough it can be said I dislike left and right in equal measure. Conversely, I quite admire some aspects of what the left do, just look at the Greens in Germany. Lets hope they win in the forthcoming Bundestag elections and show the UK just what a strong centre left party can do - God knows we need a a strong opposition to hold the current government to account.
The issue we have in the UK is left wing politics is full of arseholes who cannot countenance someone who disagrees with their viewpoint. you only have to read these posts to see what left wingers truly think. pah!
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
What value is a vote by someone forced to cast one?
It's of greater value than no vote at all. An example would be jury service - we have to be jurors and we have to, for a period of time, listen to and understand the facts of a case and are expected to make a decision.
Democracy is meant to be a form of governance by the whole population. In the last election, only 42% of the UK population voted. Of the people that did vote, for a large number, under our current [un-democratic] system, their vote was a waste of time because they will have no representation at a local or national level.
I am totally skeptical of the justifications of power i.e. monarchy, church, political parties - and believe we must take personal responsibility for the environment and the society we live in. Abdication of that responsibility is, to me, a gross form of societal sabotage.
I must be clear here, I am not in favour of the status quo, far from it.
We are already living through a mass extinction event. The way we, as a society and on an individual basis, live, is unsustainable and our current environmental crisis is far more important than invented left or right politics let alone political parties.
We have a responsibility to each and every one of us and the ecosystem. We have a personal responsibility to educate ourselves, communicate effectively, and work together in decision-making, and in order to do that, I believe we have to reject the status quo and the notion of political parties.
The value of our vote, right now, is not worth very much because it gives too much power to the state.
We cannot continue to expect anything other than a social and environmental disaster if just over half of a population share no collective responsibility. For the vote to be compulsory it has to be of value though, and you quite rightly raise that issue.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
To make myself clear (although it was already). Almost everybody is a dumbo, even the people who agree with me, even me, definitely you.
Phew I hate being left out lol.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
A few points in reply, your response suggests that what I said rattled your cage a bit, also you’ve spent a decade and more telling us on here that right is right, so it’s hard to reconcile you with being the reasonable man in the middle seeing both sides of the argument. However, although I do associate Conservatism with greed (I’ve always thought there is a dividing line between aspiration and greed, but it can be a thin one) and always will do, I was also making a general point that people tend to get more selfish/self absorbed as they get older - I have to admit I have.
I have gone the other way. I am far more mindful of other people as I get older - and am also more mindful of those who live on the breadline.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
It's of greater value than no vote at all. An example would be jury service - we have to be jurors and we have to, for a period of time, listen to and understand the facts of a case and are expected to make a decision.
Democracy is meant to be a form of governance by the whole population. In the last election, only 42% of the UK population voted. Of the people that did vote, for a large number, under our current [un-democratic] system, their vote was a waste of time because they will have no representation at a local or national level.
I am totally skeptical of the justifications of power i.e. monarchy, church, political parties - and believe we must take personal responsibility for the environment and the society we live in. Abdication of that responsibility is, to me, a gross form of societal sabotage.
I must be clear here, I am not in favour of the status quo, far from it.
We are already living through a mass extinction event. The way we, as a society and on an individual basis, live, is unsustainable and our current environmental crisis is far more important than invented left or right politics let alone political parties.
We have a responsibility to each and every one of us and the ecosystem. We have a personal responsibility to educate ourselves, communicate effectively, and work together in decision-making, and in order to do that, I believe we have to reject the status quo and the notion of political parties.
The value of our vote, right now, is not worth very much because it gives too much power to the state.
We cannot continue to expect anything other than a social and environmental disaster if just over half of a population share no collective responsibility. For the vote to be compulsory it has to be of value though, and you quite rightly raise that issue.
I certainly don't believe that a forced vote is of greater value than no vote at all. Those being forced to vote probably care not a jot about the outcome nor where they place an X on the ballot paper.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I certainly don't believe that a forced vote is of greater value than no vote at all. Those being forced to vote probably care not a jot about the outcome nor where they place an X on the ballot paper.
Until we force people to start taking personal responsibility for the decisions that have an impact on them, their families, colleagues, friends, and others, what hope do we have? If those being forced to vote care not a jot about the outcome or where they place an X on a ballot paper then should they reap the benefits of a society that is only in place because there are others who do care?
Of course, if these uncaring voters and 58% of non-voters in the UK end up living in a society that actively discriminates against them, their families, etc. because they just placed an X anywhere or didn't vote - maybe they'll be more appreciative of having the opportunity next time? Assuming there is a next time.
I'd ask myself this. Do I want to live in a society that forces me to actively partake in a democratic system or one that actively prevents me?
I understand the arguments for and against and I understand that there are complications. There would have to be caveats, for example, legal obligations to fulfill policies, local communities selecting local candidates that aren't affiliated to political parties, financial controls, and many more. But something has to change as the world is clearly broken.
We can all throw rocks. I may dislike many politicians and parties but I do respect the fact that they are actively putting themselves forward when the vast majority carp from the sidelines. If we could encourage and educate and admit to our institutionalisation maybe we'd have some hope.
We're just going to have to disagree on this one.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I have gone the other way. I am far more mindful of other people as I get older - and am also more mindful of those who live on the breadline.
Me too. Something we agree on. :thumbup:
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Me too. Something we agree on. :thumbup:
I'd have mandated voting and Covid vaccinations
( for those without health risks)
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Until we force people to start taking personal responsibility for the decisions that have an impact on them, their families, colleagues, friends, and others, what hope do we have? If those being forced to vote care not a jot about the outcome or where they place an X on a ballot paper then should they reap the benefits of a society that is only in place because there are others who do care?
Of course, if these uncaring voters and 58% of non-voters in the UK end up living in a society that actively discriminates against them, their families, etc. because they just placed an X anywhere or didn't vote - maybe they'll be more appreciative of having the opportunity next time? Assuming there is a next time.
I'd ask myself this. Do I want to live in a society that forces me to actively partake in a democratic system or one that actively prevents me?
I understand the arguments for and against and I understand that there are complications. There would have to be caveats, for example, legal obligations to fulfill policies, local communities selecting local candidates that aren't affiliated to political parties, financial controls, and many more. But something has to change as the world is clearly broken.
We can all throw rocks. I may dislike many politicians and parties but I do respect the fact that they are actively putting themselves forward when the vast majority carp from the sidelines. If we could encourage and educate and admit to our institutionalisation maybe we'd have some hope.
We're just going to have to disagree on this one.
Disagreeing is not problem on here, old fruit. Our exchanges have been civil, non-personal and respectful and that's what matters.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Disagreeing is not problem on here, old fruit. Our exchanges have been civil, non-personal and respectful and that's what matters.
Appreciated :thumbup:
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I'd have mandated voting and Covid vaccinations
( for those without health risks)
I think that's an interesting point however it's a bit more complicated when advocating what is technically a medical procedure. I don't agree with the anti-vaxxers but I do agree that it would have been better to have mandated a vote re. Covid vaccinations. But this is where I start arguing with myself (!) in that in order for your suggestion to work or my thoughts re. compulsory voting, they couldn't work under our current world of fake news (something we used to call by that quaint term - lying). Social Media monopolies and infiltration by governments make it very difficult to implement.
Of course, If I was the supreme leader of the universe (I'm still moderately ambitious) I promise to sort all of these problems out from the safety of my privately owned island. I'll even write it all down in a manifesto!
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I have gone the other way. I am far more mindful of other people as I get older - and am also more mindful of those who live on the breadline.
Yeah, maybe I was a little bit harsh on myself, because you have reminded me that I do my, little, bit for those worse off than me every week as well, but I'd still say I'm not as generous spirited as I was, say, twenty five years ago.
Well done to you for being able to maintain such an outlook at your very advanced age - what is it again, you're about a week older than me aren't you :hehe::thumbup:
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Yeah, maybe I was a little bit harsh on myself, because you have reminded me that I do my, little, bit for those worse off than me every week as well, but I'd still say I'm not as generous spirited as I was, say, twenty five years ago.
Well done to you for being able to maintain such an outlook at your very advanced age - what is it again, you're about a week older than me aren't you :hehe::thumbup:
Laughing here, TOBW. I honestly become happier with each year that passes. Our lifespan is finite and that becomes more evident as we get older - and I always thought that reaching 60 was all that I could expect from the Almighty who I don't believe in :hehe:
(In fact, I cashed in my superannuation when I was 20 as I didn't think I would live this long!).
Every year beyond 60 is a bonus and I am fortunate that I will still travel to some of the wackiest places on the planet when normal life resumes and that I have got my health and enough money to live on.
Having been to many very poor countries and seeing people living off collecting plastic bottles on rubbish tips and sleeping on the side of busy streets and without even owning a pair of shoes I realise how very fortunate we are in having been born into one of the world's richest countries. On the other hand, I will retire in the coming weeks and not have to worry financially until I shed my mortal coil.
Understandably, I don't really want to descend into a poor mental or physical state and if the gods permit me another 5 years of globetrotting, walking, attending gigs and City matches I will be happy as Larry. As the Grim Reaper gets closer I will cram more and more in to every week, month and year.
Now go and cheer up, you old bugger. You're not a bad egg really :-)
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Laughing here, TOBW. I honestly become happier with each year that passes. Our lifespan is finite and that becomes more evident as we get older - and I always thought that reaching 60 was all that I could expect from the Almighty who I don't believe in :hehe:
(In fact, I cashed in my superannuation when I was 20 as I didn't think I would live this long!).
Every year beyond 60 is a bonus and I am fortunate that I will still travel to some of the wackiest places on the planet when normal life resumes and that I have got my health and enough money to live on.
Having been to many very poor countries and seeing people living off collecting plastic bottles on rubbish tips and sleeping on the side of busy streets and without even owning a pair of shoes I realise how very fortunate we are in having been born into one of the world's richest countries. On the other hand, I will retire in the coming weeks and not have to worry financially until I shed my mortal coil.
Understandably, I don't really want to descend into a poor mental or physical state and if the gods permit me another 5 years of globetrotting, walking, attending gigs and City matches I will be happy as Larry. As the Grim Reaper gets closer I will cram more and more in to every week, month and year.
Now go and cheer up, you old bugger. You're not a bad egg really :-)
Nice message, thanks :thumbup:
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I think that's an interesting point however it's a bit more complicated when advocating what is technically a medical procedure. I don't agree with the anti-vaxxers but I do agree that it would have been better to have mandated a vote re. Covid vaccinations. But this is where I start arguing with myself (!) in that in order for your suggestion to work or my thoughts re. compulsory voting, they couldn't work under our current world of fake news (something we used to call by that quaint term - lying). Social Media monopolies and infiltration by governments make it very difficult to implement.
Of course, If I was the supreme leader of the universe (I'm still moderately ambitious) I promise to sort all of these problems out from the safety of my privately owned island. I'll even write it all down in a manifesto!
Indeed well presented.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Is this the future for non-tories at the next election?
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-past-the-post
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Veg1960
I just read that, Labour are clearly the party that could make it work, but I don’t see their left wing accepting it - perhaps we could see another SDP type split?
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I just read that, Labour are clearly the party that could make it work, but I don’t see their left wing accepting it - perhaps we could see another SDP type split?
It's hard to imagine a split these days that could compare with the Gang of Four that created the SDP though.
Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
It's hard to imagine a split these days that could compare with the Gang of Four that created the SDP though.
As the Gang Of Four Ironically sang - We Live As We Dream, Alone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dmaTtjTkHU