The Two-faced, hypocritical Buffoon and his Party set for a Mauling at PMQ's Today..

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’ve called you far worse because you are :thumbup:

The whole political landscape in this country from brexit to Covid is dominated at the moment from people whose support the government like a football team calling anyone who dates to criticise them a lefty no matter what they’re arguing.

It’s pathetic, shallow and stupid. And it’s no surprise some of ccmb’s resident “geniuses” partake in it.

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That's very nice of you to say so.

The reality is actually the opposite of what you point out - an opinion piece largely devoid of facts but packed to the rafters with anti-government rhetoric is shared.

And facts are used to try and restore some sense of reason and balance.

Thats the reality.

A balanced article would have used those facts to begin with. But then it would never have been published and never have been shared because people don't like facts if it doesn't suit their agenda.

I don't ignore the guardian. I read it online every day, it's just I have a strict balanced diet so I make sure I read the Daily Mail online in equal measure. Try it, within months you'll be grateful and more tolerant of different opinions too.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's very nice of you to say so.

The reality is actually the opposite of what you point out - an opinion piece largely devoid of facts but packed to the rafters with anti-government rhetoric is shared.

And facts are used to try and restore some sense of reason and balance.

Thats the reality.

A balanced article would have used those facts to begin with. But then it would never have been published and never have been shared because people don't like facts if it doesn't suit their agenda.

I don't ignore the guardian. I read it online every day, it's just I have a strict balanced diet so I make sure I read the Daily Mail online in equal measure. Try it, within months you'll be grateful and more tolerant of different opinions too.

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Having different opinions doesn't make some opinions right. There are some political opinions that are just wrong, just because they are an opinion doesn't give them validation.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Having different opinions doesn't make some opinions right. There are some political opinions that are just wrong, just because they are an opinion doesn't give them validation.

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In a limited number of cases, I agree entirely with you.

Some opinion pieces are just wrong. The article in question not the chief example of it, but edging that way.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

:hehe: Opinion pieces are always going to have bias, what planet are you on? Just like how you only ever post covid statistics when they prove a pre-conceived point you want to make. You weren't comparing death figures during periods where we were amongst the worst, in fact you were probably pushing the then government line of 'You can't compare across different countries' because it suited.

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I probably did actually.

But then again, when we were doing the worst in europe, the media were happy to tell us.

When we are 31st in europe for deaths and 2nd best for booster jabs, they find some other miserable news to inflict upon us.

I wasn’t talking about the article, I was talking about in general. Every little criticism of the government is met by a “lefty” by the people who blindly follow a government they voted for.

This thread is a perfect example of it.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Does read rather like clickbait for guardian readers. A quick look at his twitter shows the author is very much a left-wing activist amongst other things that no doubt qualify him.

The UK is number 2 in Europe for vaccine booster doses. Only Iceland is ahead. 35% of our population has had a booster jab. Germany is on 24%. France on 20%. EU average is 18%. So quite clearly we are doing something right
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...BR~CAN~DEU~FRA

In terms of 7 day average for deaths, we are 31st (31ST!!!) in Europe. Again, pretty relevent data, that they choose to omit, and again, quite clearly we are doing something right
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...BR~CAN~DEU~FRA

The level of support given to people during the pandemic was also truly extraordinary and we will be paying for it for years - again, all ignored, bar a small element of it which is mentioned, which he chooses to criticise.

These are pretty important statistics, that obviously the guardian ignores because it doesn't suit the narrative. Put up an inflammatory headline for middle class lefties to masturbate over and share on twitter and job done.

It's just the Daily Mail of the left. Opinion pieces in the guardian have only a passing interest in balance or factual accuracy. It's like doing a review of Cardiff City's season and only showing highlights of the defeats.

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So, you think the people of the UK have got their steer on what to do when the pandemic has hit hard from their Government then? Seems to me the population has to a large extent been ahead of the politicians. For example, back in March 2020, while Johnson was telling people to keep on shaking hands and he was going to rugby internationals, many were already preparing for, or even in, their own lockdown. I started my “lockdown” a week before the Government called one and I know plenty who did the same.

It was the same last autumn and December, the UK Government dithered and reacted late, while the Welsh Government, rightly, called their firebreak lockdown only to undo the good work, by reopening things too quickly. I make no claims as to any great intelligence, but you could see the spike which ruined Christmas in England and the devolved countries a mile off and, again, I think large parts of the population were in lockdown mode well before the politicians came around to that way of thinking.

It’s all very convenient when you can just write off an article you disagree with because it appears in a publication you don’t like isn’t it, but, in this case, the writer certainly has a point - what’s that saying? That’s right, lions lad by donkeys.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So, you think the people of the UK have got their steer on what to do when the pandemic has hit hard from their Government then? Seems to me the population has to a large extent been ahead of the politicians. For example, back in March 2020, while Johnson was telling people to keep on shaking hands and he was going to rugby internationals, many were already preparing for, or even in, their own lockdown. I started my “lockdown” a week before the Government called one and I know plenty who did the same.

It was the same last autumn and December, the UK Government dithered and reacted late, while the Welsh Government, rightly, called their firebreak lockdown only to undo the good work, by reopening things too quickly. I make no claims as to any great intelligence, but you could see the spike which ruined Christmas in England and the devolved countries a mile off and, again, I think large parts of the population were in lockdown mode well before the politicians came around to that way of thinking.

It’s all very convenient when you can just write off an article you disagree with because it appears in a publication you don’t like isn’t it, but, in this case, the writer certainly has a point - what’s that saying? That’s right, lions lad by donkeys.

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Yes, the people have largely got their steer on what to do from the government. It's they who set the rules that councils, businesses, schools, the NHS, hospitality and the majority of the population follow. It's also they paying for vaccines and healthcare and furlough. So pretty clear they are steering the ship. Imperfectly so, but they are in charge.

I'm not interested in articles that laud the government, nor blame them for everything. The reality is far more nuanced.

Decisions were easier for Welsh Govt as they know the big economic decisions have to be made by Westminster, and they are happy with that. There's much less risk involved.

But I don't particularly praise or critique the Welsh Govt either. Or the Scottish, or the Italian, US, or New York State or any other government.

It's been a nightmare pandemic and very difficult to manage, with some things done well and some badly.

But, an article that totally ignores facts and presents a distorted image of reality - no, I don't like that. It's making a cheap political point and should be called out for such.

If there was a right-wing journalist in a right-wing newspaper claiming the Welsh Govt were the biggest problem and illustrated that with zero facts whatsoever, you would see it. Because it isn't, you decide to gloss over it, or in this instance, activity promote it. But that article, opinion piece as it may be, is borderline misinformation and there's a touch of the conspiracy theories about it

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I probably did actually.

But then again, when we were doing the worst in europe, the media were happy to tell us.

When we are 31st in europe for deaths and 2nd best for booster jabs, they find some other miserable news to inflict upon us.

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I can't say I am as keen as you are when it comes to reading newspapers but my recollection of this summer was that as a collective the media barely mentioned covid other than to say how well the vaccine rollout was going. During July, August and September UK case rates were completely out of line with other countries in Europe because of social distancing regulations being relaxed and the governing party's frankly childish stance on masks. It was barely mentioned that we were having 20k+ cases and 100+ deaths a day compared to a virtual flat line in other countries. I don't remember you talking about it much either, which is odd because you love comparing covid stats between countries. Hmmm

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes, the people have largely got their steer on what to do from the government. It's they who set the rules that councils, businesses, schools, the NHS, hospitality and the majority of the population follow. It's also they paying for vaccines and healthcare and furlough. So pretty clear they are steering the ship. Imperfectly so, but they are in charge.

I'm not interested in articles that laud the government, nor blame them for everything. The reality is far more nuanced.

Decisions were easier for Welsh Govt as they know the big economic decisions have to be made by Westminster, and they are happy with that. There's much less risk involved.

But I don't particularly praise or critique the Welsh Govt either. Or the Scottish, or the Italian, US, or New York State or any other government.

It's been a nightmare pandemic and very difficult to manage, with some things done well and some badly.

But, an article that totally ignores facts and presents a distorted image of reality - no, I don't like that. It's making a cheap political point and should be called out for such.

If there was a right-wing journalist in a right-wing newspaper claiming the Welsh Govt were the biggest problem and illustrated that with zero facts whatsoever, you would see it. Because it isn't, you decide to gloss over it, or in this instance, activity promote it. But that article, opinion piece as it may be, is borderline misinformation and there's a touch of the conspiracy theories about it

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You’re just making yourself look absurd now. Deliberately or not, you’re completely missing the point of that article because you have a problem with the messenger.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I can't say I am as keen as you are when it comes to reading newspapers but my recollection of this summer was that as a collective the media barely mentioned covid other than to say how well the vaccine rollout was going. During July, August and September UK case rates were completely out of line with other countries in Europe because of social distancing regulations being relaxed and the governing party's frankly childish stance on masks. It was barely mentioned that we were having 20k+ cases and 100+ deaths a day compared to a virtual flat line in other countries. I don't remember you talking about it much either, which is odd because you love comparing covid stats between countries. Hmmm

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:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I can't say I am as keen as you are when it comes to reading newspapers but my recollection of this summer was that as a collective the media barely mentioned covid other than to say how well the vaccine rollout was going. During July, August and September UK case rates were completely out of line with other countries in Europe because of social distancing regulations being relaxed and the governing party's frankly childish stance on masks. It was barely mentioned that we were having 20k+ cases and 100+ deaths a day compared to a virtual flat line in other countries. I don't remember you talking about it much either, which is odd because you love comparing covid stats between countries. Hmmm

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Yes, the UK's case rates rose, as did the death rate moderately. We did relax to a greater extent than some countries, primarily due to vaccines, also perhaps a more libertarian minded government. I think you are right, there was far less reporting on Covid at this time, primarily because the second wave had ended and cases were vastly reduced.

Nonetheless, in the months you mention, we were 16th in Europe for deaths per capita. A kind of figure I would suggest that would result in relatively calm reporting
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...BR~CAN~DEU~FRA

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes, the people have largely got their steer on what to do from the government. It's they who set the rules that councils, businesses, schools, the NHS, hospitality and the majority of the population follow.

I'm not interested in articles that laud the government, nor blame them for everything. The reality is far more nuanced.

Decisions were easier for Welsh Govt as they know the big economic decisions have to be made by Westminster, and they are happy with that. There's much less risk involved.

But I don't particularly praise or critique the Welsh Govt either. Or the Scottish, or the Italian, US, or New York State or any other government.

It's been a nightmare pandemic and very difficult to manage, with some things done well and some badly.

But, an article that totally ignores facts and presents a distorted image of reality - no, I don't like that. It's making a cheap political point and should be called out for such.

If there was a right-wing journalist in a right-wing newspaper claiming the Welsh Govt were the biggest problem and illustrated that with zero facts whatsoever, you would see it. Because it isn't, you decide to gloss over it, or in this instance, activity promote it. But that article, opinion piece as it may be is borderline misinformation.

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Your absurd antidote to this is to read another article from a different publication i.e. The Daily Mail which is ideological, ignores facts, lies, and presents a distorted image all the name of tolerance and balance. You're actually no genius Mr J but merely a Trojan Horse of a debater. You aren't an analytical thinker nor are you balanced in any way. Anyone who uses the term lefty has just exposed their bias in neon letters.

I'm off to read Kafka's Metamorphosis in equal measure along with Mein Kampf so I ensure there's a sense of balance between two works of fiction.

Dominic Raab is a proper horrible **** isn’t he?

He’s claiming the overhaul of human rights law will counter “political correctness”

Which of these laws are our resident torystans think are overtly politically correct?

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Article 2: Right to life

Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment

Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour

Article 5: Right to liberty and security

Article 6: Right to a fair trial

Article 7: No punishment without law

Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence

Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion

Article 10: Freedom of expression

Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association

Article 12: Right to marry and start a family

Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms

Protocol 1, Article 1: Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property

Protocol 1, Article 2: Right to education

Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to participate in free elections

Protocol 13, Article 1: Abolition of the death penalty

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Mad that our current government feels the right to be a **** is more valuable than our right to protest.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yes, the UK's case rates rose, as did the death rate moderately. We did relax to a greater extent than some countries, primarily due to vaccines, also perhaps a more libertarian minded government. I think you are right, there was far less reporting on Covid at this time, primarily because the second wave had ended and cases were vastly reduced.

Nonetheless, in the months you mention, we were 16th in Europe for deaths per capita. A kind of figure I would suggest that would result in relatively calm reporting
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...BR~CAN~DEU~FRA

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Libertarian minded government? Don’t make me laugh. Is this the same libertarian government who has just brought out laws to stop its people demonstrating if they “make too much noise”. Is this the same libertarian government who want you to show voter ID at the ballet box. And don’t start me on the libertarian government who want to abolish The Human Rights Act.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Your absurd antidote to this is to read another article from a different publication i.e. The Daily Mail which is ideological, ignores facts, lies, and presents a distorted image all the name of tolerance and balance. You're actually no genius Mr J but merely a Trojan Horse of a debater. You aren't an analytical thinker nor are you balanced in any way. Anyone who uses the term lefty has just exposed their bias in neon letters.

I'm off to read Kafka's Metamorphosis in equal measure along with Mein Kampf so I ensure there's a sense of balance between two works of fiction.

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Ah yes, everything you like is good and honourable.

Anything anyone else likes is bad.

Remember, I am advocating reading newspapers that cross the political divide and illustrating articles with facts.

If you have a problem with that, then with respect you are probably part of the problem I allude to.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Dominic Raab is a proper horrible **** isn’t he?

He’s claiming the overhaul of human rights law will counter “political correctness”

Which of these laws are our resident torystans think are overtly politically correct?



Mad that our current government feels the right to be a **** is more valuable than our right to protest.

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Read this after my last post. Agreed!

You just know the death penalty is incoming too.

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Libertarian minded government? Don’t make me laugh. Is this the same libertarian government who has just brought out laws to stop its people demonstrating if they “make too much noise”. Is this the same libertarian government who want you to show voter ID at the ballet box. And don’t start me on the libertarian government who want to abolish The Human Rights Act.

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I said 'more libertarian minded' which we generally have been Covid wise. And people would dispute your analysis of the rest you have written.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Ah yes, everything you like is good and honourable.

Anything anyone else likes is bad.

Remember, I am advocating reading newspapers that cross the political divide and illustrating articles with facts.

If you have a problem with that, then with respect you are probably part of the problem I allude to.

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Facts in the Daily Heil. Do us all a favour lol.

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Facts in the Daily Heil. Do us all a favour lol.

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Your ignorance shines through like a beacon. Either you read the Daily Mail and know it is an opinion led newspaper like the guardian, or you don't in which case by definition you don't know what you are talking about. In all honesty, it has a greater diversity of opinion than the guardian, although the journalism is generally more tabloid

I read both.

Just read a diversity of things. Life is too short, and you'll realise that many of your prejudices are wrong, and many of the things you consider gospel are also wrong.

Just popping in to try and save some people some time by reminding you that no matter what the subject, JamesWales is never wrong

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Ah yes, everything you like is good and honourable.

Anything anyone else likes is bad.

Remember, I am advocating reading newspapers that cross the political divide and illustrating articles with facts.

If you have a problem with that, then with respect you are probably part of the problem I allude to.

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....he typed sanctimoniously.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Just popping in to try and save some people some time by reminding you that no matter what the subject, JamesWales is never wrong

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Thanks babe. I am wrong as often as anyone else though.

However in an article entitled "The weakest link in fighting Covid is not the public, it’s the UK government" written by a politically motivated journalist in a politically motivated newspaper that fails to point out that the UK is currently..

A) Ranked 2nd in Europe, behind only Iceland in Booster jabs and way ahead of many countries.

and

B) Ranked 31st in Europe for deaths in the last week.

..Means I think I am right on this occasion to point out that the article is highly questionable, even if it does upset the angry lot on here.

These are clearly facts that should make us question his opinions somewhat. If you don't choose to question them then fine, you can ignore the facts.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Pathetic how everything people don’t agree with now has been reduced to “lefty” no wonder the political discourse and economy of this country are down the toilet.

Everything can be ruled by making people think it’s a culture war. It’s like America lite over here.

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not sure if you are being serious

this has been going on for ages, during the Brexit debates, the remainers were always shouting " thats a right leaning newspaper " or " how can we take that serious when its in the Daily Mail ( for example ) "

if the news story doesn't suit, its normally discredited because in a newspaper / press that leans the one direction ( always the wrong one it seems )

now someone mentions a "lefty " its unacceptable :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Your ignorance shines through like a beacon. Either you read the Daily Mail and know it is an opinion led newspaper like the guardian, or you don't in which case by definition you don't know what you are talking about. In all honesty, it has a greater diversity of opinion than the guardian, although the journalism is generally more tabloid

I read both.

Just read a diversity of things. Life is too short, and you'll realise that many of your prejudices are wrong, and many of the things you consider gospel are also wrong.

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Come on now James. We all know that the Daily Heil is a vile hateful rag. It certainly is not a “News Paper”.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Not everything has. The right are more than capable of writing inaccurate click bait articles too. 'Lefty' doesn't mean anyone on the left either, but it's a valid to call it out if you think their ideological stance is getting in the way of accuracy.

Also, you call people far far worse things than 'righty'.

But I do think it's fair to call these things out. There are some pretty damning stats that contradict the thrust of the argument that are clearly omitted as they would challenge the paper and authors editorial stance, and no doubt lead to less sharing on social media.

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You could also argue that if you dont ride along on a populists liberal /left /central view your cancelled or ridiculed

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Come on now James. We all know that the Daily Heil is a vile hateful rag. It certainly is not a “News Paper”.

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not everything they do is Heil or vile

Extract From Mail :

How YOU made Britain proud: More than 40million items of vital PPE for hospitals, care homes and charities, and £11.7m donated by generous readers and benefactors... Now PM and NHS chief lead praise for 'historic' Mail Force campaign.

Mail Force charity has donated more than 40million pieces of personal protective equipment during Covid
The last donations to Mail Force charity took the total past £11.7million, exceeding all expectations.

Every penny donated by tens of thousands of readers has gone straight to fight against coronavirus

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Originally Posted by life on mars

You could also argue that if you dont ride along on a populists liberal /left /central view your cancelled or ridiculed

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Take a look at what is going on politically in Britain and Europe in general, and then tell me that right wing opinion is cancelled out. Utter nonsense.

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Come on now James. We all know that the Daily Heil is a vile hateful rag. It certainly is not a “News Paper”.

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We don't know that. I am well aware of it's reputation of course, but equally a lot of people who don't read it spread somewhat inaccurate stories about it. It's pretty good at holding governments to account in it's own way and has some very commendable campaigns. It does also have a greater diversity of opinion within it, which I think is important.

Personally, I see more abuse and 'hate' coming from people who object to it than people who support it, it's just in the minds of polite society that is an acceptable form of hate.

But hey, I don't advocate it. If you only read one paper don't read the Daily Mail. But you are better off reading a variety, and if you want to understand the country you live in, ignoring it's most popular media sources is rarely a good idea.

Also, i like the women in the 'right hand' column on the daily mail website.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

We don't know that. I am well aware of it's reputation of course, but equally a lot of people who don't read it spread somewhat inaccurate stories about it. It's pretty good at holding governments to account in it's own way and has some very commendable campaigns. It does also have a greater diversity of opinion within it, which I think is important.

Personally, I see more abuse and 'hate' coming from people who object to it than people who support it, it's just in the minds of polite society that is an acceptable form of hate.

But hey, I don't advocate it. If you only read one paper don't read the Daily Mail. But you are better off reading a variety, and if you want to understand the country you live in, ignoring it's most popular media sources is rarely a good idea.

Also, i like the women in the 'right hand' column on the daily mail website.

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You’ll be telling us next to get our news from “GB News”.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Thanks babe. I am wrong as often as anyone else though.

However in an article entitled "The weakest link in fighting Covid is not the public, it’s the UK government" written by a politically motivated journalist in a politically motivated newspaper that fails to point out that the UK is currently..

A) Ranked 2nd in Europe, behind only Iceland in Booster jabs and way ahead of many countries.

and

B) Ranked 31st in Europe for deaths in the last week.

..Means I think I am right on this occasion to point out that the article is highly questionable, even if it does upset the angry lot on here.

These are clearly facts that should make us question his opinions somewhat. If you don't choose to question them then fine, you can ignore the facts.

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The headline was written by a Guardian sub-editor, not the author of the opinion piece. But either way it wasn't written by 'a politically motivated journalist'.

Steve Reicher is a well-known and respected academic - Professor of Social Psychology at St Andrews. His expertise and focus during Covid is on the messages from government (including government scientists and other spokespeople) - what they say and how they are delivered - and the impact on public opinion and response. He has written a series of opinion pieces on this for The Guardian and been interviewed as an expert by the BBC and Channel 4 fairly regularly. He is not an expert on vaccines or on hospitalisation rates from Covid. That is why his piece did not stray into the areas of distraction you threw out.

The fact that the NHS has delivered an impressive vaccination programme (at least until the booster stage) and that the severity of the latest Covid variant isn't yet known, is not relevant to his point. So you are (again) wrong to dismiss the piece.

You are right to say Steve is a 'lefty'. I knew him very well over 40 years ago when we were both in the Socialist Students Alliance at Bristol University. He had his head screwed on then and he has now. The difference between then and now is that he has since spent a working lifetime becoming an authority on social psychology, contributes to the Sage process and has opinions well worth hearing.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The headline was written by a Guardian sub-editor, not the author of the opinion piece. But either way it wasn't written by 'a politically motivated journalist'.

Steve Reicher is a well-known and respected academic - Professor of Social Psychology at St Andrews. His expertise and focus during Covid is on the messages from government (including government scientists and other spokespeople) - what they say and how they are delivered - and the impact on public opinion and response. He has written a series of opinion pieces on this for The Guardian and been interviewed as an expert by the BBC and Channel 4 fairly regularly. He is not an expert on vaccines or on hospitalisation rates from Covid. That is why his piece did not stray into the areas of distraction you threw out.

The fact that the NHS has delivered an impressive vaccination programme (at least until the booster stage) and that the severity of the latest Covid variant isn't yet known, is not relevant to his point. So you are (again) wrong to dismiss the piece.

You are right to say Steve is a 'lefty'. I knew him very well over 40 years ago when we were both in the Socialist Students Alliance at Bristol University. He had his head screwed on then and he has now. The difference between then and now is that he has since spent a working lifetime becoming an authority on social psychology, contributes to the Sage process and has opinions well worth hearing.

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And James will hear those opinions, then to form a coherent balanced and fully informed view he will go and read some Rod Liddle.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

not everything they do is Heil or vile

Extract From Mail :

How YOU made Britain proud: More than 40million items of vital PPE for hospitals, care homes and charities, and £11.7m donated by generous readers and benefactors... Now PM and NHS chief lead praise for 'historic' Mail Force campaign.

Mail Force charity has donated more than 40million pieces of personal protective equipment during Covid
The last donations to Mail Force charity took the total past £11.7million, exceeding all expectations.

Every penny donated by tens of thousands of readers has gone straight to fight against coronavirus

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This is incredible, yeah let's rely on donations for every area in life, just like those school teachers in usa fighting for money on ice rinks for supplies for their students. Why don't we dig Captain Tom out of his grave and put on some punch and judy while we're at it.

This is how it works old man. Taxes are cut for the richest, then they make a small donation and then simple folk say 'see look how generous they are, tHeY DiDnT hAvE tO dO tHaT'.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

And James will hear those opinions, then to form a coherent balanced and fully informed view he will go and read some Rod Liddle.

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

And James will hear those opinions, then to form a coherent balanced and fully informed view he will go and read some Rod Liddle.

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Actually I presented some data on vaccines and deaths but to be expect you to be accurate is asking too much..

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The headline was written by a Guardian sub-editor, not the author of the opinion piece. But either way it wasn't written by 'a politically motivated journalist'.

Steve Reicher is a well-known and respected academic - Professor of Social Psychology at St Andrews. His expertise and focus during Covid is on the messages from government (including government scientists and other spokespeople) - what they say and how they are delivered - and the impact on public opinion and response. He has written a series of opinion pieces on this for The Guardian and been interviewed as an expert by the BBC and Channel 4 fairly regularly. He is not an expert on vaccines or on hospitalisation rates from Covid. That is why his piece did not stray into the areas of distraction you threw out.

The fact that the NHS has delivered an impressive vaccination programme (at least until the booster stage) and that the severity of the latest Covid variant isn't yet known, is not relevant to his point. So you are (again) wrong to dismiss the piece.

You are right to say Steve is a 'lefty'. I knew him very well over 40 years ago when we were both in the Socialist Students Alliance at Bristol University. He had his head screwed on then and he has now. The difference between then and now is that he has since spent a working lifetime becoming an authority on social psychology, contributes to the Sage process and has opinions well worth hearing.

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Interesting and thanks for posting. Totally agree on the headline writer too. I meant to say that earlier.

This isn't a character assassination. I don't doubt his credentials. What I'm saying is his article was devoid of facts (which is true) and that those core facts would have undermined his argument and the papers editorial position and what its readers want to read.

It would have made for a more nuanced, balanced and accurate article, but it probably wouldn't have been commissioned, he wouldn't have been paid and certainly it wouldnt have been shared as much on social media or discussed as much on CCMB as a result!

Quite clearly, with a disease that infects Europeans the same way and a vaccine that is put into us the same way, the fact that we are 2nd in Europe for booster jabs and 31st for weekly deaths is pretty significant data.

Facts matter at the end of the day and they are absolutely key ones.

The article would be much better as a factual analysis than a largely fact-free diatribe against the government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

And James will hear those opinions, then to form a coherent balanced and fully informed view he will go and read some Rod Liddle.

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Although Liddle considered becoming a teacher, he decided against it on the grounds that he "could not remotely conceive of not trying to shag the kids" Wikipedia

Do you remember him writing for the South Wales Echo about music?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Actually I presented some data on vaccines and deaths but to be expect you to be accurate is asking too much..

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Well the underlying point you are making is that to form a balanced view you need to read from across the landscape. I agree with that but unfortunately because of the version of the conservative party that is in government right now, all the right leaning intellectuals are either in hiding or are indistinguishable from 'bloody lefties' in their consistent criticism of this government.

I didn't like the Cameron government but they still had some respectable conservative commentators willing to go to bat for them. Nowadays, for the 'balance' you are looking for, you are forced to pit some know-nothing shockjock blowhard Vs a professor or doctor.

As for your other point, I don't really get it. In the summer it was fine not to report on covid because all was calm and we were 16th in Europe for deaths and cases, but now we are 31st in the same table, they should be shoehorning it into articles for balance?? Why aren't you equally critical for the media not 'balancing' the good news vaccine stories of the summer months with case and death numbers?? It sounds like you only want it to work one way.

I would rather the media do their job, which for me is to investigate, probe and highlight things that aren't working the way they should. If a newspaper is praising a politician it usually means only one thing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Well the underlying point you are making is that to form a balanced view you need to read from across the landscape. I agree with that but unfortunately because of the version of the conservative party that is in government right now, all the right leaning intellectuals are either in hiding or are indistinguishable from 'bloody lefties' in their consistent criticism of this government.

I didn't like the Cameron government but they still had some respectable conservative commentators willing to go to bat for them. Nowadays, for the 'balance' you are looking for, you are forced to pit some know-nothing shockjock blowhard Vs a professor or doctor.

As for your other point, I don't really get it. In the summer it was fine not to report on covid because all was calm and we were 16th in Europe for deaths and cases, but now we are 31st in the same table, they should be shoehorning it into articles for balance?? Why aren't you equally critical for the media not 'balancing' the good news vaccine stories of the summer months with case and death numbers?? It sounds like you only want it to work one way.

I would rather the media do their job, which for me is to investigate, probe and highlight things that aren't working the way they should. If a newspaper is praising a politician it usually means only one thing...

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Mate this is exhausting now and I want my tea.

Of course, people should read news from across the spectrum. I do believe that very passionately and it would make for a more tolerant and informed electorate.

On this article, I think he ignored facts to just pump out an article that he wanted to get paid for and the guardian wanted to publish. Looking at key facts massively undermine his argument but I think facts trump opinions and you should alter the latter in favour of the former, not vice versa.

In terms of the summer, and cases of Covid and the media, I've lost the point being made but I think the media should proportionately report the facts at all times and hold the govt (and NHS and everything else) to account in a rational manner

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Originally Posted by blue matt

not sure if you are being serious

this has been going on for ages, during the Brexit debates, the remainers were always shouting " thats a right leaning newspaper " or " how can we take that serious when its in the Daily Mail ( for example ) "

if the news story doesn't suit, its normally discredited because in a newspaper / press that leans the one direction ( always the wrong one it seems )

now someone mentions a "lefty " its unacceptable :shrug:

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You always say things like this and I don’t really understand why? I wasn’t talking about newspapers or articles, I was talking about the inane responses in this thread.

The dailymail is a right leaning newspaper, it’s unquestionable. Look at the owners look at the story it prints.

The owners weren’t pro brexit because they’re right leaning though they were pro brexit because they are greedy *****.

Brexit was pushed by a right wing government with right wing ideals supported by a right wing media. That doesn’t mean any fact against it left, it just makes it a fact. But anyone presenting the facts is called a lefty.

If you can be a bit more clear about what your actual problem is I’ll happily answer it more because at the moment it’s lost on me.

Quote:

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Well the underlying point you are making is that to form a balanced view you need to read from across the landscape. I agree with that but unfortunately because of the version of the conservative party that is in government right now, all the right leaning intellectuals are either in hiding or are indistinguishable from 'bloody lefties' in their consistent criticism of this government.

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This couldn’t be more spot on.