Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

According to their spokesman, community pharmacists are supposedly all keen to be part of the vaccination programme. If all 11,000 pharmacies did take part a tremendous number of people could be vaccinated quickly. However, speaking as a retired industrial pharmacist who spent some time in retail, I don't know how they would find the time! As for the worry about aseptic technique, I hardly think there is much difference in working conditions between the consulting room in a pharmacy and a leisure centre. Pharmacists should be well aware of aseptic procedures?

Of greater concern to me is the availability of components like vials and stoppers. There are not that many manufacturers of pharmaceutical quality glass vials or stoppers, so the availability of these could well turn out to be the rate limiting step.

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I agree with your comments about supply chain issues like glass vials, could turn out to be the weakest link in the supply chain, not so much for the Pfizer product as product is finished in house and production planning would account for, but maybe for third party fill and finish of the Oxford jab.

I'm not so sure about community pharmacists being engaged en masse at this point in time. Boots are setting up a few hubs at large pharmacies to vaccinate 1000 a week, but your average community pharmacy couldn't do anything like that, and when you consider a 6 hour shell life once a dose has been extracted from a vial, and the fact that the SKU is 10 vials, community pharmacists could remove one heck of a lot of stock from an already friable supply chain, and potentially waste stock too.
Additionally, unlike the flu jab where appointments can be made for anyone, or even walk in service, the Covid jab will need to be given in priority order, and how is it all monitored? Pharmacy IT systems do not link to NHS patient data. Finally, according to the PIL patients have to be given a date for their 2nd jab at the time of the first, yet another administrative issue as the pharmacist will need to be sure he has stock available for these.

All in all I think pharmacy involvement would be best at a time when vaccination is open to the general population.

For those who think the UK is doing badly, our vaccination programme is doing rather well by comparison with the EU:

Vaccine doses given out by EU countries

Germany - 316,962

Italy - 182,442

Spain - 139,339

Poland - 92,220

Denmark - 51,512

Romania - 41,609

Portugal - 32,000

Greece - 16,233

Hungary - 15,000

Croatia - 13,798

Czech Republic - 13,000

Slovakia - 7,201

Austria - 6,000

Slovenia - 5,934

Finland - 5,445

France - 5,000

Bulgaria - 4,739

Ireland - 4,000

Estonia - 3,188

Latvia - 2,923

Lithuania - 2,270

Malta - 1,400

Luxembourg - 1,200

Belgium - 700

Started today: Netherlands

No data: Cyprus, Sweden

Source: Our World In Data

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Did he say which spring?

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Spring 2022....and by then we will need a new one anyway

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Originally Posted by Hilts

If they could do 1.3m a day. That means with supply they could have the first dose given to the entire UK population in about 2 months.

Id like to think your right. But I believe theyve managed 1.3m so far since it began.

However they say with the new vaccine things will speed up rapidly.

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I'm always willing to admit I was incorrect and I was. Apologies. However, I note that on another virus thread somebody gained the same impression that the 1.1m/1.3m figure was a daily total when clearly it was the cumulative total.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

For those who think the UK is doing badly, our vaccination programme is doing rather well by comparison with the EU:

Vaccine doses given out by EU countries

Germany - 316,962

Italy - 182,442

Spain - 139,339

Poland - 92,220

Denmark - 51,512

Romania - 41,609

Portugal - 32,000

Greece - 16,233

Hungary - 15,000

Croatia - 13,798

Czech Republic - 13,000

Slovakia - 7,201

Austria - 6,000

Slovenia - 5,934

Finland - 5,445

France - 5,000

Bulgaria - 4,739

Ireland - 4,000

Estonia - 3,188

Latvia - 2,923

Lithuania - 2,270

Malta - 1,400

Luxembourg - 1,200

Belgium - 700

Started today: Netherlands

No data: Cyprus, Sweden

Source: Our World In Data

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I know that the German government is being criticised heavily for not sourcing enough vaccinations.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I know that the German government is being criticised heavily for not sourcing enough vaccinations.

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Which is strange as they are the world leaders when it comes to producing pharmaceuticals aren’t they? Something I didn’t know until this pandemic....

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Originally Posted by goats

Which is strange as they are the world leaders when it comes to producing pharmaceuticals aren’t they? Something I didn’t know until this pandemic....

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Not sure why this is being turned into an "us and them " competition by Johnson, well I am sure why but I'm not going to make this political like he does. One thing to remember is that the EU approved the vaccine later.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I know that the German government is being criticised heavily for not sourcing enough vaccinations.

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France is also having problems in vaccine uptake. Partly due to the public's mistrust of vaccines in general and partly due to a complex pre-vaccine consent process, which I think, must be done several days before administering the vaccine.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I'm always willing to admit I was incorrect and I was. Apologies. However, I note that on another virus thread somebody gained the same impression that the 1.1m/1.3m figure was a daily total when clearly it was the cumulative total.

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No problem.

Im sure it will speed up.

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Not sure why this is being turned into an "us and them " competition by Johnson, well I am sure why but I'm not going to make this political like he does. One thing to remember is that the EU approved the vaccine later.

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I have a few vulnerable family members, so I really hope that The Government pulls this off.

However, I'm going to predict that in a couple of weeks they will be saying that comparing the numbers of vaccines administered in different countries isn't a valid means of judging The Government's performance.

Just a hunch!

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

France is also having problems in vaccine uptake. Partly due to the public's mistrust of vaccines in general and partly due to a complex pre-vaccine consent process, which I think, must be done several days before administering the vaccine.

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It fascinates me that it seems a rarity for people to try and have an global overview of current events and it's often as if Blighty exists in a bubble - and it can be very difficult to judge some complex matters at the best of times if we aren't political dogmatists.
However, and at the risk of stating the obvious, it seems that the UK has been dire in respect to the virus in general but ahead of many comparable countries in sourcing and delivering the vaccines.

Hardly shocking news, I know.

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Not sure why this is being turned into an "us and them " competition by Johnson, well I am sure why but I'm not going to make this political like he does. One thing to remember is that the EU approved the vaccine later.

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The EU have yet to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine but have approved the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Not sure why this is being turned into an "us and them " competition by Johnson, well I am sure why but I'm not going to make this political like he does. One thing to remember is that the EU approved the vaccine later.

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You are right it shouldn't really be an us or them but I do seem to recall the Government being criticised in the summer for not joining the EU vaccination program which it could have done. The same was true of the Europe wide PPE and ventilator programs.

As far as I can tell not joining those programs hasn't mattered one bit. In fact in the case of the vaccine it seems to have been an advantage ( up to now, could change of course) as we could start our vaccinations before Europe did.


Here's a recent link from the BBC which provides some information. mainly on the vaccine but there is some limited information on progress on the other schemes at the end.

Not just Johnston who makes it political (not disagreeing at all that he does)

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The EU have yet to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine but have approved the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

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Have the EU got access to Maderna yet? Or are they like us and will get it in the Spring.?

1.3 million vaccines in the UK as a whole so far.

Another update due today.

Daily updates from next Monday (11th)

According to ITV.Com

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The EU have yet to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine but have approved the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

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Isn't this a metaphor for Brexit*? The UK can now act more quickly than a massive trading block but ended up paying more for the vaccines.

New Zealand is donating (not sure if correct word but gives accurate enough impression) vaccines to neighbouring islands. The UK can vaccine everyone it wants to but can't escape the risk that if insufficient vaccines go to those who have been slower/less able to resource them then the virus mutates beyond the coverage of the existing vaccine and comes back here.

*drink

Scientific contribution (developing a vaccine and identifying drugs to be used as part of treatments) will definitely be seen as positive part of UK response though with good amount of credit going to Boris etc.

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Not sure why this is being turned into an "us and them " competition by Johnson, well I am sure why but I'm not going to make this political like he does. One thing to remember is that the EU approved the vaccine later.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The EU have yet to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine but have approved the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the vaccines being approved for use by individual countries and not the EU as a singularity?

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

You are right it shouldn't really be an us or them but I do seem to recall the Government being criticised in the summer for not joining the EU vaccination program which it could have done. The same was true of the Europe wide PPE and ventilator programs.

As far as I can tell not joining those programs hasn't mattered one bit. In fact in the case of the vaccine it seems to have been an advantage ( up to now, could change of course) as we could start our vaccinations before Europe did.


Here's a recent link from the BBC which provides some information. mainly on the vaccine but there is some limited information on progress on the other schemes at the end.

Not just Johnston who makes it political (not disagreeing at all that he does)

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Sorry forgot the BBC link about the EU Vaccine scheme in my earlier post

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52380823

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the vaccines being approved for use by individual countries and not the EU as a singularity?

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I think they could have done but I think they agreed to approving it as a bloc.

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Originally Posted by surge

Isn't this a metaphor for Brexit*? The UK can now act more quickly than a massive trading block but ended up paying more for the vaccines.

New Zealand is donating (not sure if correct word but gives accurate enough impression) vaccines to neighbouring islands. The UK can vaccine everyone it wants to but can't escape the risk that if insufficient vaccines go to those who have been slower/less able to resource them then the virus mutates beyond the coverage of the existing vaccine and comes back here.

*drink

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Did we pay more for the vaccines than them??? I thought we had a special deal for The Oxford one as it was developed and manufactured here and the Government put money into it.

Deleted by writer

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Have the EU got access to Maderna yet? Or are they like us and will get it in the Spring.?

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I don't know but the Moderna vaccine has yet to be approved for use in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I don't know but the Moderna vaccine has yet to be approved for use in the UK.

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Didnt know that. Had it in mind it had but we wouldnt get it by Spring.

Probably got that from its results and they mentioned Spring for us.

Thinking about it now can only remember Pfizer and Oxford given approval.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

I think they could have done but I think they agreed to approving it as a bloc.

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This seems to be the position in the extract below from an article written by a German:


"The sclerotic and sluggish EU machine has, unforgivably, botched the roll-out of the vaccines, and the consequences are likely to prove fatal to many thousands of our citizens........................................

My home country of Germany had, by Tuesday, vaccinated some 317,000 people — by far the most of the EU27.

Yet what a bitter irony it is that we who were crucial to the development and manufacturing of the Pfizer/BioNTech jab — BioNTech is a start-up based outside Frankfurt — must now watch lorry loads of supplies travelling to Britain while our own roll-out is beset by delay, uncertainty and fears about future supply.

Our health minister has warned that Germany will not be vaccinating at Britain’s rate until at least the summer, thanks to distribution problems and the EU’s ill-considered ‘cap’ on the number of doses that can be distributed to the various member states."

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I don't know but the Moderna vaccine has yet to be approved for use in the UK.

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My mate in Italy says this is the one that’s all the talk there.....

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I agree with your comments about supply chain issues like glass vials, could turn out to be the weakest link in the supply chain, not so much for the Pfizer product as product is finished in house and production planning would account for, but maybe for third party fill and finish of the Oxford jab.

I'm not so sure about community pharmacists being engaged en masse at this point in time. Boots are setting up a few hubs at large pharmacies to vaccinate 1000 a week, but your average community pharmacy couldn't do anything like that, and when you consider a 6 hour shell life once a dose has been extracted from a vial, and the fact that the SKU is 10 vials, community pharmacists could remove one heck of a lot of stock from an already friable supply chain, and potentially waste stock too.
Additionally, unlike the flu jab where appointments can be made for anyone, or even walk in service, the Covid jab will need to be given in priority order, and how is it all monitored? Pharmacy IT systems do not link to NHS patient data. Finally, according to the PIL patients have to be given a date for their 2nd jab at the time of the first, yet another administrative issue as the pharmacist will need to be sure he has stock available for these.

All in all I think pharmacy involvement would be best at a time when vaccination is open to the general population.

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You make some good points there. I agree a few large pharmacy hubs would be a good idea in order to reduce potential waste and guarantee continuity of supply for the second dose. I suppose the downside is that by definition there would not be many such centres so maybe not too local for elderly folk. As I said earlier I really don't know how a pharmacist in your local independent or small chain pharmacy would have the time or the facilities to get involved in the vaccination scheme on top of their normal "day job"!

Re vials/stoppers/caps - Pfizer will also be dependent on third party manufacturers for the supply of these too, although they may have greater commercial "clout" I suppose. I do wonder if we might see shortages of other injectable products that require 10 ml or 20 vials?

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Didnt know that. Had it in mind it had but we wouldnt get it by Spring.

Probably got that from its results and they mentioned Spring for us.

Thinking about it now can only remember Pfizer and Oxford given approval.

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We have ordered the Moderna vaccine for delivery by the Spring subject of course to approval. Because of that the MHRA has given the approval process lower priority.

Schools shut until half term, what a surprise....wonder when all governments will back down and vaccinate teachers. No brainier

The Guardian’s rolling coverage is reporting that there’s been a study which suggests that the Oxford vaccine will be effective against the British and South African mutations.

Moderna vaccine just approved in the Uk.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55586410

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Moderna vaccine just approved in the Uk.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55586410

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That makes 367m doses of the 3 vaccines vaccines on order. I wonder what will happen with the surplus?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

That makes 367m doses of the 3 vaccines vaccines on order. I wonder what will happen with the surplus?

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The total figure quoted on BBC yesterday was 140 million, whoich is enough for everyone in the UK>

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Originally Posted by Vindec

That makes 367m doses of the 3 vaccines vaccines on order. I wonder what will happen with the surplus?

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Maybe re vaccinate the initial ones?

Could be into 2022 for the whole population.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

The total figure quoted on BBC yesterday was 140 million, whoich is enough for everyone in the UK>

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The BBC article quoted in the TOBW post and my earlier post states:

"In total, the UK has now ordered 367 million doses of vaccines to protect against Covid-19."

However the 367m I suppose might include orders for vaccines that have yet to be approved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55577426

People like this should be charged with manslaughter. Why does this country produce some absolute scumbags?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The BBC article quoted in the TOBW post and my earlier post states:

"In total, the UK has now ordered 367 million doses of vaccines to protect against Covid-19."

However the 367m I suppose might include orders for vaccines that have yet to be approved.

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No one is quite sure yet how often we'll need to be vaccinated, so having a potential supply in hand for maybe next year is a very prudent approach.

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

No one is quite sure yet how often we'll need to be vaccinated, so having a potential supply in hand for maybe next year is a very prudent approach.

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The shelf life of these vaccines is 6 months.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

The shelf life of these vaccines is 6 months.

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Yeah but thats the order though isnt it.?

Theyll have 6 months from production. So next year could be fine

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

The shelf life of these vaccines is 6 months.

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But have they printed enough triplicate forms to fill in ?