The Two-faced, hypocritical Buffoon and his Party set for a Mauling at PMQ's Today..

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Originally Posted by blue matt

dont read either to be honest, I have various news feeds ping though on my phone and my MBP ( oh sorry, MacBook Pro )



I own 2 Billy Bragg CD's, so no

but seriously

I have spent my life Voting Labour or Plaid , I was a GMB Union rep for a few years, I have only once voted Conservative, so I dont class myself as right leaning, but as I have grown slightly older I have certainly moved away from the left ( but not in favour of the right ) I guess I just want all to have a equal shot at life BUT I dont want the working class to be penalised by the " too lazy to work lot " ( having worked as a carpenter for the local council / housing association I have seen it all ), I do get annoyed when I see people playing the system to screw it over, I guess thats right wing to you though

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Matt, you seem a lovely bloke and still.learning about life but believe me getting annoyed when you think people are screwing the system is classic right wing deflection. When you get older you'll find there's much more important things to worry about! Still, I got hope for you, you'll make it in the end.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

dont read either to be honest, I have various news feeds ping though on my phone and my MBP ( oh sorry, MacBook Pro )



I own 2 Billy Bragg CD's, so no

but seriously

I have spent my life Voting Labour or Plaid , I was a GMB Union rep for a few years, I have only once voted Conservative, so I dont class myself as right leaning, but as I have grown slightly older I have certainly moved away from the left ( but not in favour of the right ) I guess I just want all to have a equal shot at life BUT I dont want the working class to be penalised by the " too lazy to work lot " ( having worked as a carpenter for the local council / housing association I have seen it all ), I do get annoyed when I see people playing the system to screw it over, I guess thats right wing to you though

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People screwing the system are a tiny percentage of benefit claimants and the majority need it. It’s something like immigration that has been used by the media as an excuse to divide people and get them to not want a more socialist government even though it would more than likely be better than all of us.

You can read studies that show benefit fraud has an effect of about 0.01% on the country’s budget while tax fraud from companies and billionaires is way way above that.

Now ask yourself why that isn’t reported in newspapers or on the news channels ran by very wealthy people?

This has been clear for so long I can’t believe someone would use this as a reason to vote. All this info is out there if you consume independent trustworthy media. It’s used as propaganda by rags like the express all the time.

This is why people don’t trust articles from the mail or the sun because they have been doing this forever and their intentions are clear and their “facts” are easy disproven.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I posted the data on percentage of the population with a booster vaccine (UK is 2nd in Europe) and the number of deaths per capita for the last week (we are 31st).

If you are interested in facts over opinion then you would respect this information.

However, since you ask, I have looked at the covid deaths per capita for the last month too. UK is 30th in Europe on that

Any rational person who favours factual evidence would take from this that perhaps, just maybe, the UK government is doing better than some of you think.

But hey, insult me all you like. If you want to live in a fantasy land because you are still crying over spilt brexit that's up to you.

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So, you now say we’ve had a good month compared to the rest of Europe, but the data I posted places us twenty ninth in a list of Covid deaths per million of the population over a period of over two years since the disease first appeared. Of the twenty eight countries in front of us, four have a population of under a million which may or may not (I’ve not checked) adversely affect their standing in the table, while sixteen of them are countries which used to be part of the old Warsaw Pact - again, you wonder if the preponderance of such countries has something to do with a lack of resources (certainly, almost all of them must suffer in a comparison with us).

Of the countries which could be called Western European, non Warsaw Pact democracies that may have been members of the old Common Market, Belgium are twenty first and Italy are twenty eighth, all of the others are below us. Maybe that’s why the author of the article (someone whose findings SAGE have used) you dismissed as leftist propaganda used the language he did - right from the first wave, the figures tend to show the UK Government (and, by implication, the devolved Governments) have done worse than countries they share many similarities with and I would argue that there are valid grounds to suggest that the fact we’ve not done even worse is that the ordinary people in the UK have, at times, been ahead of their Governments in anticipating what’s coming.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Pretty hard hitting stuff from someone who has been involved with SAGE.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-link-omicron

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I’ve only just got round to reading this, seems a pretty well informed article by an expert in his field. Can someone point out what in it is in anyway left wing?

I can’t see anything online that make me think he’s a “lefty” either. And even if he is it seems a weird way to try and discredit someone who’s an expert making a valid point.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Newspapers aside the UK gov data supports some of what TOBW says. But of the home nations, since the start of the pandemic, per capita Wales has the highest incidence, the highest number of deaths as reported as Covid-19 on the death certificate, and highest number of patients admitted to hospital.

All this despite more rigorous restrictions in Wales than the other home nations. So if Worldometers show UK in a bad light compared to many parts of Europe, then what about Wales and our Sendedd...keeping Wales safe!!

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I know you tend to use CSO figures, so I assume you are when you make those claims against the Welsh Government, but this comes from what I presume is a reputable source and suggests something different - it also says that, when it comes to Covid deaths, Wales cannot be compared to the other home nations because of the different way they recorded them in the first wave.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/new...e-uk-countries

Also should be noted that wales has a higher average population age

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Also should be noted that wales has a higher average population age

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Interesting that when it comes to high UK incidence the finger is pointed at the incompetence of UK Gov.

When Wales is shown to be the worse of the home nations, the blame is down to something else.

Wales Gov is full of good intent, but their very own rail transport system is an excellent example of playing with fire when it comes to Covid. Frequently packed trains, lots of passengers without masks...and no enforcement. Old trains with all windows closed and wet with condensation.

Our First minister talks about keeping Wales safe, thumps the hospitality industry, asks us to protect a failing NHS that's now entering a third winter of Covid and has done seemingly nothing extra to prepare for it.

And now an off the cuff request from him to get a LFT before we go Christmas shopping to ensure we stay safe in one of his packed trains.

The only thing that Wales has done really well is the vaccination programme, all be it that the programme had a very slow start thanks to our first minister.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think Boris and his crew could shoot the royal family and kill off everyone over 75 and they would still get elected

The opposition are completely hopeless

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Under 75 for a landslide? Or only over 75s really support the royalty? Interesting point. Maybe a controlled shooting is needed. Like badgers. Pembrokeshire is/was already set up for this.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Interesting that when it comes to high UK incidence the finger is pointed at the incompetence of UK Gov.

When Wales is shown to be the worse of the home nations, the blame is down to something else.

Wales Gov is full of good intent, but their very own rail transport system is an excellent example of playing with fire when it comes to Covid. Frequently packed trains, lots of passengers without masks...and no enforcement. Old trains with all windows closed and wet with condensation.

Our First minister talks about keeping Wales safe, thumps the hospitality industry, asks us to protect a failing NHS that's now entering a third winter of Covid and has done seemingly nothing extra to prepare for it.

And now an off the cuff request from him to get a LFT before we go Christmas shopping to ensure we stay safe in one of his packed trains.

The only thing that Wales has done really well is the vaccination programme, all be it that the programme had a very slow start thanks to our first minister.

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With respect John. you're telling us that Wales is the worst of the home nations, but you're not showing us your evidence of that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the link I posted appears to suggest otherwise.

Agree with you about the trains, I certainly don't fancy travelling to the game in one on Saturday after my experience ten days ago on the way to the Sheffield United match, so I can see me giving it a miss.

More one rule for them and another one for us from the Conservative party;-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59657361

And this mornings news for the Tories on here.

Inflation hits 10-year high of 5.1% as cost of living squeeze tightens. More than double official 2% target.

Raucous Christmas party at Tory HQ leading to ex mayoral candidate and police and criminal commissioner Shaun Bailey resigning.

99 Tory’s oppose BJ’s plans in England.

State Pension age to increase to 68

But, but Jeremy Corbyn, left wing, socialism blah blah bloody blah.

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

And this mornings news for the Tories on here.

Inflation hits 10-year high of 5.1% as cost of living squeeze tightens. More than double official 2% target.

Raucous Christmas party at Tory HQ leading to ex mayoral candidate and police and criminal commissioner Shaun Bailey resigning.

99 Tory’s oppose BJ’s plans in England.

State Pension age to increase to 68

But, but Jeremy Corbyn, left wing, socialism blah blah bloody blah.

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And if you ask any cabinet member about any of those subjects their response will be about vaccine boosters.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

With respect John. you're telling us that Wales is the worst of the home nations, but you're not showing us your evidence of that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the link I posted appears to suggest otherwise.

Agree with you about the trains, I certainly don't fancy travelling to the game in one on Saturday after my experience ten days ago on the way to the Sheffield United match, so I can see me giving it a miss.

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PHE UK Gov data.....Total cases. E 9275513, NI 339297, S 772674. W 541254..Wales about 5% of UK population so per capita we are not so good

Deaths as recorded on death certificate per 100,000 population. E 255.9, NI 205.6, S 223.2. W283.9

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

People screwing the system are a tiny percentage of benefit claimants and the majority need it. It’s something like immigration that has been used by the media as an excuse to divide people and get them to not want a more socialist government even though it would more than likely be better than all of us.

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I fully understand that, still doesn't take away from the fact that the tiny percentage that cheat the system annoys me, it always has, Ive worked in the houses of them, they are proud that they are doing it

Immigration doesn't overly bother me, I have friends from various places, I will have a coffee ( in a Turkish coffee shop, with real turks serving me ) with 2 polish Lads ( one used to work for me ) next week to have a christmas catch up

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

This has been clear for so long I can’t believe someone would use this as a reason to vote. All this info is out there if you consume independent trustworthy media. It’s used as propaganda by rags like the express all the time.

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I didn't use my dislike of people cheating the system as my reason to vote for the Torys

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Matt, you seem a lovely bloke and still.learning about life but believe me getting annoyed when you think people are screwing the system is classic right wing deflection. When you get older you'll find there's much more important things to worry about! Still, I got hope for you, you'll make it in the end.

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Oh Im not that nice :hehe: but thanks

It doesn't worry me that much, just annoys me at times, I just concentrate on things I can alter in the world, by it at the food bank or my own personal stuff,

So what did make you vote for the tories then if it wasn’t the reasons you gave for becoming more right leaning one post ago?

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Originally Posted by blue matt

I fully understand that, still doesn't take away from the fact that the tiny percentage that cheat the system annoys me, it always has, Ive worked in the houses of them, they are proud that they are doing it

Immigration doesn't overly bother me, I have friends from various places, I will have a coffee ( in a Turkish coffee shop, with real turks serving me ) with 2 polish Lads ( one used to work for me ) next week to have a christmas catch up



I didn't use my dislike of people cheating the system as my reason to vote for the Torys

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You’ll lose your mind when you hear about the rich evading tax and hiding their wealth in offshore bank accounts. Surely your anger is best served on those. Reminds me of that famous cartoon Attachment 4711

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So, you now say we’ve had a good month compared to the rest of Europe, but the data I posted places us twenty ninth in a list of Covid deaths per million of the population over a period of over two years since the disease first appeared. Of the twenty eight countries in front of us, four have a population of under a million which may or may not (I’ve not checked) adversely affect their standing in the table, while sixteen of them are countries which used to be part of the old Warsaw Pact - again, you wonder if the preponderance of such countries has something to do with a lack of resources (certainly, almost all of them must suffer in a comparison with us).

Of the countries which could be called Western European, non Warsaw Pact democracies that may have been members of the old Common Market, Belgium are twenty first and Italy are twenty eighth, all of the others are below us. Maybe that’s why the author of the article (someone whose findings SAGE have used) you dismissed as leftist propaganda used the language he did - right from the first wave, the figures tend to show the UK Government (and, by implication, the devolved Governments) have done worse than countries they share many similarities with and I would argue that there are valid grounds to suggest that the fact we’ve not done even worse is that the ordinary people in the UK have, at times, been ahead of their Governments in anticipating what’s coming.

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This is much more style of debate I have to say - scrutinising the numbers and coming to conclusions. And you make a fair point. Against many 'western peers' our death rates from Covid are moderately worse. That should be acknowledged. Our vaccinations are generally quicker, and on the economy and long term education or mental and physical health impacts it's probably too soon to tell.

I wouldnt so hastily dismiss the former Warsaw pact countries mind. Although economically they may still lag, I dont think they really have any less tools at their disposal to manage this pandemic than we do. But it's a fair point to make.

Either way, when we really look into the data like this, and consider all the wider impacts, it's hard to come to such a conclusion that the UK government is a total disaster, or the UK is a disaster etc. It's way more nuanced than that and some things we've done bad, some good, most middling.

For the record - I didn't dismiss it as leftist propaganda. That makes me sound like I'm standing trial at one of Stalins purges. I called him a lefty - A light hearted term and one I think is fairly accurate.

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

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It’s almost like they were lied to. They’ll never admit it.

More than two million EU citizens could face deportation from the UK after a decision by Priti Patel to make them reapply to stay in the country. What the hell have we become?

PS story from the left wing Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...tain-tdgw99z59

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

It’s almost like they were lied to. They’ll never admit it.

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May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want. Annoyance at benefit fraud is very common in working class areas as it is at very close proximity to people who are playing it fair.

It's understandable that if someone is cheating the system in Ely, then someone living a few doors down and working etc will be more annoyed by it than someone in Lisvane for whom such things are generally out of sight.

The country isn't "full" but England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe, and people are allowed to see over development, the loss of some community assets, house price rises etc and associate the two.

In short, concerns over benefit fraud and population density are perfectly valid concerns for people. The mistake the left has generally made is the same one you are making now. You aren't understanding peoples concerns or offering viable solutions, you are merely mocking them and telling them what to think.

You need to learn to respect the electorate more, and if they have a view different to you, to understand it, not just dismiss it as someone being 'lied to'.

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May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want.

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They are but that doesn’t mean they are valid concerns. What you are saying is “the left” needs to address concerns about things that aren’t actual issues just because people think they are.

What a waste of time. Shame people won’t be concerned about tax dodging, would put much more in the country’s coffers is we dealt with that rather than the tiny % of people getting an extra few quid a week.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

They are but that doesn’t mean they are valid concerns. What you are saying is “the left” needs to address concerns about things that aren’t actual issues just because people think they are.

What a waste of time. Shame people won’t be concerned about tax dodging, would put much more in the country’s coffers is we dealt with that rather than the tiny % of people getting an extra few quid a week.

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They are valid concerns to people who are worried or annoyed about it. If you are working your arse off to provide for your family and making sacrifices and someone down the road is a benefit cheat, this will annoy you. Thats a valid concern. It may not be the country's biggest issue, but it's a valid issue for that person. It's not for you to decide what peoples concerns are. This is why we have universal suffrage, so all peoples concerns are heard.

Same as burglary may not be the biggest issue in the country, but for those who have been burgled, it is probably their number one concern and that's fair enough.

I agree with you on tax dodging, although the two aren't exclusive. They are both theft and really we don't need to seperate them out; people concerned about benefit cheats will also be concerned about tax avoidance.

Consider this. You are concerned about both benefit fraud and tax dodging.

One party says "I understand that and we will try and tackle that"

The other party says "pah, you dumbass, you should only be worried about one of those things! You are being lied to!"

Who are many people going to vote for?

Change the topic to Brexit, or cultural issues, or crime or any number of factors and it goes a long way to explaining why Labour lost the red wall and why more working class people now vote Tory than Labour. That may not continue, but for the last 5 years at least it's been about respect.

I don’t think one party is saying “you’re a dumbass” though. And I don’t think I was talking about a party winning votes.

I was just saying it’s depressing that people are using these as core reasons for how to vote when they aren’t actual issues.

The country’s full and voting for brexit when the actual issue is lack of spending and investment on the country and infrastructure is going to end up with the exact opposite result to what the person wants.

I think benefit cheats are lazy but they aren’t worth me voting to cut benefits to the majority of people who need them.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I don’t think one party is saying “you’re a dumbass” though. And I don’t think I was talking about a party winning votes.

I was just saying it’s depressing that people are using these as core reasons for how to vote when they aren’t actual issues.

The country’s full and voting for brexit when the actual issue is lack of spending and investment on the country and infrastructure is going to end up with the exact opposite result to what the person wants.

I think benefit cheats are lazy but they aren’t worth me voting to cut benefits to the majority of people who need them.

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Obviously I was using artistic licence to make a point with the 'dumbass' comment, but I assure you that it does often feel, particularly online, that many on the left do feel that way about the electorate.

I hear what you are saying and broadly respect it and agree with you on some points. The reality is though that people know what issues impact their lives and it's important to listen to those and explain them. Everyone has different concerns based on their own unique circumstances and it's not for you (or me) to tell them their concerns aren't valid.

If I’m honest I think one of the problems with political discourse recently is too much notice is taken of social media by the government and the opposition.

Twitter especially is always quoted and used as evidence for things but it’s active user base is tiny.

I actually think most people want the same things from the government but I also feel the Tory party won’t provide that even though that’s the way the public perception is.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe

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What's your source for this?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

What's your source for this?

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I'd imagine Netherlands is denser.

Simple population statistics against total land area isn't the be-all and end-all. Somewhere like the Netherlands (more densely populated than the UK) has a flat landscape and has fewer barriers to abosrb a greater population than, for example, Alpine countries where much of the land is highly mountainous and where populations are greatly limited to the valleys. Just sayin' :-)

Ironically, Alpine countries (and indeed Wales) have a greater surface area than is evident on a two-dimensional map, of course.:getscoat:

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

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Appalling in my opinion but in fairness to Matt I have to give him a thumbs up for helping out at food banks 👍

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Originally Posted by lardy

I'd imagine Netherlands is denser.

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I disagree, UK is denser; it voted for Brexit!

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Originally Posted by delmbox

What's your source for this?

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England is marginally more densely populated than the Netherlands. Broadly twice that of Italy and Germany. Nearly four times as much as France.

I'm not saying that makes it an issue. But it's understandable if some people think it is, as it has a relationship to access to green spaces, land values, space for environmental protections, even garden sizes etc.

Even if the data can be questioned, England itself is a very densely populated country on a global scale, so it's understandable it's an issue for many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries

The Netherlands is much more densely populated than England. I thought Belgium would be too but different places seem to have different numbers.

As TBG said I’m not sure density is really a good measure here.

Shaun Bailey , desperate to be an MP , has resigned from some sort of position he had because he and his Conservative mates had a party during lockdown .

They are all at it !

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

The Netherlands is much more densely populated than England. I thought Belgium would be too but different places seem to have different numbers.

As TBG said I’m not sure density is really a good measure here.

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It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

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The Netherlands is more densely populated than England, your wiki source is wrong. You can even tell it's wrong because the countries are all in descending population density order apart from The Netherlands.

The dangers of using Wiki as a source.

Here's one from a Professor in Urban Studies and Planning, University of Sheffield

Attachment 4714

https://theconversation.com/think-yo...s-europe-90345

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They are valid concerns to people who are worried or annoyed about it. If you are working your arse off to provide for your family and making sacrifices and someone down the road is a benefit cheat, this will annoy you. Thats a valid concern. It may not be the country's biggest issue, but it's a valid issue for that person. It's not for you to decide what peoples concerns are. This is why we have universal suffrage, so all peoples concerns are heard.

Same as burglary may not be the biggest issue in the country, but for those who have been burgled, it is probably their number one concern and that's fair enough.

I agree with you on tax dodging, although the two aren't exclusive. They are both theft and really we don't need to seperate them out; people concerned about benefit cheats will also be concerned about tax avoidance.

Consider this. You are concerned about both benefit fraud and tax dodging.

One party says "I understand that and we will try and tackle that"

The other party says "pah, you dumbass, you should only be worried about one of those things! You are being lied to!"

Who are many people going to vote for?

Change the topic to Brexit, or cultural issues, or crime or any number of factors and it goes a long way to explaining why Labour lost the red wall and why more working class people now vote Tory than Labour. That may not continue, but for the last 5 years at least it's been about respect.

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Valid concerns! I had a conversation only last week with a woman who was slagging off a benefits cheat who apparently had lived on benefits all their life when there was, in her words, “nothing wrong with them”. She then went on to say that her husband now works cash in hand and doesn’t declare it because he’s fed up of with benefits cheats.

I’d say those complaining the most are almost always ”up to their necks in it” that’s why they complain just to deflect their bad behaviour.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

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that's kind of irrelevant. Nobody lives in the whole country. If they suddenly discovered that Devon and cornwall were actually 5 times bigger than they previously thought it would make the population density of England as a whole reduce, but it wouldn't make any day to day difference to someone living in Newcastle or Leeds.
The Netherlands and England are largely pleasant places to live - I've been to both plenty of times and I like them.

I've also been to far more densely populated countries - and those are also pleasant: Hong Kong for example.

England clearly isn't approaching being completely full - there may be problems associated with higher population density - but then there are also significant advantages.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

that's kind of irrelevant. Nobody lives in the whole country. If they suddenly discovered that Devon and cornwall were actually 5 times bigger than they previously thought it would make the population density of England as a whole reduce, but it wouldn't make any day to day difference to someone living in Newcastle or Leeds.
The Netherlands and England are largely pleasant places to live - I've been to both plenty of times and I like them.

I've also been to far more densely populated countries - and those are also pleasant: Hong Kong for example.

England clearly isn't approaching being completely full - there may be problems associated with higher population density - but then there are also significant advantages.

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Yes, this can be over-simplified - Australia would have one of the lower population densities overall but is also one of the most urbanised countries in the world. So the 'lived' population density that most people ordinarily experience there is very high.