Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

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Originally Posted by surge

We do have great scientists and supporting them will probably be seen as the best thing Boris/Cummings did, but more still needs to done to spread vaccines around the world.

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You do have to give it to the government the way they've procured and rolled out the vaccine has been incredible.

You only have to look at the EU to see how it can be done slowly and poorly.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Sorry mate yeah only about 80,000 of the deaths have been caused by negligence fomr the government. Glad you are here to hold the real villians to account while sticking up for the little men running the country like a dodgy business!

I'm not sure what sort of proof you want other than what's in the news every day.

Or would you like to wait until the enquiry into this happens?

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So you now think 80000 of the 100000 deaths have been caused by the government's negligence. Where is your evidence for the 80000 deaths you now claim? I'm not defending the government; unlike some I have no attachment or link to any political Party; I'm just trying to clarify some of the outrageous statements made. What proof do I require you ask. You are the one that is making the claim and all I am asking for is your evidence that 80000 deaths have been caused by negligence. If you think making outrageous unverifiable claims amounts to holding the government to account I suggest you have failed as quoting meaningless facts is merely showing up the inadequacies of your argument. Just give up.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I don't know why you bother, you're trying to push water uphill

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I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

So you now think 80000 of the 100000 deaths have been caused by the government's negligence. Where is your evidence for the 80000 deaths you now claim? I'm not defending the government; unlike some I have no attachment or link to any political Party; I'm just trying to clarify some of the outrageous statements made. What proof do I require you ask. You are the one that is making the claim and all I am asking for is your evidence that 80000 deaths have been caused by negligence. If you think making outrageous unverifiable claims is holding the government to account I suggest you have failed as quoting meaningless facts is merely showing up the inadequacies of your argument. Just give up.

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You're right I was being a bit hyperbolous with the 100,000 and even the 80,000, a proportion of the deaths were unavoidable. I do believe a large majority of the deaths in this country should have been avoided but I'll admit there are some mitigating factors and we can't blame the government for every death.

Maybe if we had acted quickly, hadn't underfunded our health service for years and not made the same mistakes 3 times we wouldn't have one of the worst numbers for deaths in the world though.

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Originally Posted by goats

I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

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I'm definitely not saying a labour government wouldn't have the same mistakes. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be an enquiry held into our response nor does it mean the government shouldn't be held accountable for what they've done. I'm also being genuine when I say previous tory governments wouldn't have botched it as bad as this one, it is genuinley the worst cabinet we've ever had by a distance.

The jobs for the boys and handing out billions to mates for track and trace etc is one of the biggest crimes going.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

The 4 home nations have got it wrong and the lack of joined up thinking and confusing rules that differed between the 4 nations, sometimes changing by the hour certainly didn't help. What also did not help was a large part of the UK population ignoring the advice and socialising as if nothing was happening.

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It may be right to say that Drakeford and Sturgeon having slightly different rules about 12 year old's was wrong when clearly singing from same hymn sheet, but in practice this is often a veiled attack on devolution. Arguably, the worst each nation has done is when they had joined up thinking at the start of first wave (moving ill or untested people back into care homes) and their joined up plans for winter (proposed 5 days travel relaxation) but the best each nation has done is when it's been prepared to act more individually and boldly: Boris using the summer to give business a boost, Sturgeon going hard and early when needed especially at the start of winter, Drakeford putting whole of Wales into lockdown during winter and the better promotion of ventilation as part of the key message, NI....I still don't know enough about what they've done.

They should have been more willing to work together but, with knowledge gained up to this point, more often than not that would have meant Boris conceding ground to Sturgeon which you know was never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by goats

I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

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I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You're right I was being a bit hyperbolous with the 100,000 and even the 80,000, a proportion of the deaths were unavoidable. I do believe a large majority of the deaths in this country should have been avoided but I'll admit there are some mitigating factors and we can't blame the government for every death.

Maybe if we had acted quickly, hadn't underfunded our health service for years and not made the same mistakes 3 times we wouldn't have one of the worst numbers for deaths in the world though.

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I don't disagree with much of what you have said in the above comment. All I was saying was that you should avoid making unverifiable statements that bordered on the ridiculous. I'm glad we have resolved this.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

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Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I don't disagree with much of what you have said in the above comment. All I was saying was that you should avoid making unverifiable statements that bordered on the ridiculous. I'm glad we have resolved this.

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What I would say is that, even factoring in variations in how these grisly statistics are compiled, for every person who has died in Germany of a covid-related cause, two people died in the UK. It too has a structure where health care responsibility is shared between the Federal government and the lander. The decisions made, the timing and nature of restrictions, the delivery structures used both by central and devolved governments and the overall competence of those with political responsibility for key decisions must have a part to play in this.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree :hehe:

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I don't agree with the idea that in an elected democracy, responsibility and accountability for key decisions and regulation should be taken out of the hands of the people the country voted to put in place and cede it to an appointed official, no matter how qualified.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree :hehe:

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you're wrong

:hehe:

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I don't agree with the idea that in an elected democracy, responsibility and accountability for key decisions and regulation should be taken out of the hands of the people the country voted to put in place and cede it to an appointed official, no matter how qualified.

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Italy removed its elected officials and replaced them with technocrats in the early 2010s with quite remarkable results.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

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Ive worked closely with the health service throughout my career and it is one of the best at the sharp end but much of the rest is stuck in administrative sludge. Until that is sorted we will forever be playing catch up with patients.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Italy removed its elected officials and replaced them with technocrats in the early 2010s with quite remarkable results.

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Really, I thought the Prime Minister was an elected politician though his cabinet wasn't. Even so the idea of the Chief Scientific Officer instructing the Prime Minister and Parliament to implement a set of restrictive measures is totally unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

they have had much more experience of this than we have: SARS, MERS and so on. Its hardly surprising they are better prepared.

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Exactly my point, ridiculous to try and compare us

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I'm definitely not saying a labour government wouldn't have the same mistakes. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be an enquiry held into our response nor does it mean the government shouldn't be held accountable for what they've done. I'm also being genuine when I say previous tory governments wouldn't have botched it as bad as this one, it is genuinley the worst cabinet we've ever had by a distance.

The jobs for the boys and handing out billions to mates for track and trace etc is one of the biggest crimes going.

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Let’s hope it comes out about contracts for mates etc and then pay for the crimes......

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Originally Posted by Feedback

they have had much more experience of this than we have: SARS, MERS and so on. Its hardly surprising they are better prepared.

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Culturally, the citizens are better prepared. I don't believe the governments necessarily were.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

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I agree that closing borders would have gone down badly with lots of the population. People needed better education about worst case scenarios.

It probably didn't help that for decades, kids have seen studying science in school as a dweeb option.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Really, I thought the Prime Minister was an elected politician though his cabinet wasn't. Even so the idea of the Chief Scientific Officer instructing the Prime Minister and Parliament to implement a set of restrictive measures is totally unrealistic.

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Monti was (one of the very few) appointed to the senate and was not elected.

My point was that in times of national crisis, we need a mechanism whereby science trumps politics so decisions are based on contemporaneous medical thinking, and not how matters may look come the next election. whatever that mechanism is is up for debate.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Culturally, the citizens are better prepared. I don't believe the governments necessarily were.

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I have read that the people of China Proper (aka Taiwan), South Korea and Japan all readily wear face coverings if they are unwell, even outside this pandemic. Its just take as read that you keep your bugs to yourself.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I have read that the people of China Proper (aka Taiwan), South Korea and Japan all readily wear face coverings if they are unwell, even outside this pandemic. Its just take as read that you keep your bugs to yourself.

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Yep, it's also true of people in Outer China. Locals also wear face masks in the cities when pollution is bad.

Masks were one of the things I had in mind with the cultural difference. Also they are less likely to feel they have to rebel against government advice, unlike the western libertarians.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Yep, it's also true of people in Outer China. Locals also wear face masks in the cities when pollution is bad.

Masks were one of the things I had in mind with the cultural difference. Also they are less likely to feel they have to rebel against government advice, unlike the western libertarians.

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Indeed. They are more compliant societies.

We do need to be careful when making international comparisons as the practices of recording deaths varies from country to country. An ONS report

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati...uarytojune2020

confirmed this by stating:

"Given the widely differing practices between countries in recording and reporting deaths relating to COVID-19 it is not possible at this time to conduct accurate international comparisons of deaths involving COVID-19 specifically."

What we can say is that the situation in the UK is very bad and has not been handled well apart from the vaccine rollout which has been exemplary.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

We do need to be careful when making international comparisons as the practices of recording deaths varies from country to country. An ONS report

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati...uarytojune2020

confirmed this by stating:

"Given the widely differing practices between countries in recording and reporting deaths relating to COVID-19 it is not possible at this time to conduct accurate international comparisons of deaths involving COVID-19 specifically."

What we can say is that the situation in the UK is very bad and has not been handled well apart from the vaccine rollout which has been exemplary.

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you're not suggesting Mainland Taiwan is prone to under reporting its figures?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

We do need to be careful when making international comparisons as the practices of recording deaths varies from country to country. An ONS report

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati...uarytojune2020

confirmed this by stating:

"Given the widely differing practices between countries in recording and reporting deaths relating to COVID-19 it is not possible at this time to conduct accurate international comparisons of deaths involving COVID-19 specifically."

What we can say is that the situation in the UK is very bad and has not been handled well apart from the vaccine rollout which has been exemplary.

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Can we not just look at excess deaths though?

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you're wrong

:hehe:

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It would be funny to have a message board meet up after all this calms down, if only to put some usernames to faces:hehe: I’m sure we’d all get along just fine....with plenty of things to chat and laugh about. I owe Matt a few pints anyway for his Disney info service....

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Originally Posted by goats

It would be funny to have a message board meet up after all this calms down, if only to put some usernames to faces:hehe: I’m sure we’d all get along just fine....with plenty of things to chat and laugh about. I owe Matt a few pints anyway for his Disney info service....

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In Beddau? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I have read that the people of China Proper (aka Taiwan), South Korea and Japan all readily wear face coverings if they are unwell, even outside this pandemic. Its just take as read that you keep your bugs to yourself.

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yes and the same in the rest of.china, Hong Kong etc.
plenty of people also wear them just to avoid getting colds and flus as well.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

In Beddau? :hehe:

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Any****ingwhere!:ayatollah:

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Originally Posted by goats

Any****ingwhere!:ayatollah:

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Are you sure?you don't wnat to go anywhere near Beddau on a sunday morning. It's dangerous!!! :hide:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Are you sure?you don't wnat to go anywhere near Beddau on a sunday morning. It's dangerous!!! :hide:

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I’m not even sure where it is.....we will be fine with delmbo, croesy and the youngsters to take care of any local yoofs

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Originally Posted by goats

I’m not even sure where it is.....we will be fine with delmbo, croesy and the youngsters to take care of any local yoofs

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lol They're the ones you have to watch out for in Beddau!!! :yikes:

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Originally Posted by goats

I’m not even sure where it is.....we will be fine with delmbo, croesy and the youngsters to take care of any local yoofs

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It's Welsh for Boudoir - which is French for bedroom.

You kinky bitch.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

In Beddau? :hehe:

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:hehe:
:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

There have been some basic mistakes :

Firstly an ill prepared health service. Lack of PPE, lack of specialist equipment, lack of capacity. An organisation now ruled by bureaucracy and slow to react. There is no doubt the service needs more money and an organisational overall.

Secondly...Reluctance to act fast on lockdowns, then easing them too quickly, coupled with lax compliance by sectors of the public, modest punishment for rule breakers, plus a soft touch police force. A four nations approach caused confusion.

Third....muddled thinking...politics v science...created some big mistakes...care home residents returning after hospitalisation without tests, an inadequate track and trace system, delay in insistence on mask wearing, airports open etc

The one big plus for me is the speed in which we procured vaccines, and in quantity

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His “basic mistakes” were the fundamental reasons we found ourselves in the position we are.

The “big plus... the speed in which we procured vaccines...”

Bit like getting a shot of penicillin after you caught the fuucking clap.

For a lad who has avast experience of the medical industry, you have a skewed strategy in these things. I thought prevention was better than cure?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

His “basic mistakes” were the fundamental reasons we found ourselves in the position we are.

The “big plus... the speed in which we procured vaccines...”

Bit like getting a shot of penicillin after you caught the fuucking clap.

For a lad who has avast experience of the medical industry, you have a skewed strategy in these things. I thought prevention was better than cure?

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you'd probably have enjoyed the actual act of getting the clap though.:hehe:

[QUOTE=Jordi Culé;5162621]His “basic mistakes” were the fundamental reasons we found ourselves in the position we are.

The “big plus... the speed in which we procured vaccines...”

Bit like getting a shot of penicillin after you caught the fuucking clap.

For a lad who has avast experience of the medical industry, you have a skewed strategy in these things. I thought prevention was better than cure?[/QUOTE]


I think you missed the point. The vaccine does prevent it.

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5162704]

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

His “basic mistakes” were the fundamental reasons we found ourselves in the position we are.

The “big plus... the speed in which we procured vaccines...”

Bit like getting a shot of penicillin after you caught the fuucking clap.

For a lad who has avast experience of the medical industry, you have a skewed strategy in these things. I thought prevention was better than cure?[/QUOTE]


I think you missed the point. The vaccine does prevent it.

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Fair point and I stand corrected, although I’m right in thinking receiving the one of the vaccines doesn’t stop the virus being caught by the individual and vaccinated persons can still spread the virus about?

“Basic mistakes...”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ummings-scheme