Stay in the EU petition

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

We can have trade deals with both :thumbup:

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But why would we get better than we have now when every sign is saying our economy will reduce following Brexit? And if freedom of movement is cost of our current trade deal with the EU then what will be the acceptable cost of a trade deal with the US post-Brexit?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

and the result was??????????????????????????????????//

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The result isn't important, you basically implied they couldn't fight... One country controlled most of continental Europe for years due to their armies, the fact that pretty much every other power within Europe had to come together to beat that one country suggests that they could fight.

Also how about the 100 years war... I think the French actually won that one eventually but some idiot named it before it had finished!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

We can have trade deals with both :thumbup:

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We already have one with both. The US are not going to give little UK the same trade deal as they give the big EU... That's how trade deals work.... The bigger you are the better the deal you get. It also takes years to negotiate trade deals, they don't just grow in trees and personally I wouldn't trust this government to negotiate a reduced price on a sofa from DFS

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

On an earlier note This from a BBC post would tend to add some weight to Wales Bales' comment about the German Economy (God forgive me :hehe:)

"With the deadline for a Brexit decision looming next week on 12 April, Ms Kramp-Karrenbauer believes the risk of the UK leaving without a deal have "risen dramatically". This is something German business find no laughing matter.

A recent poll suggested 100,000 German jobs could be affected by a no-deal Brexit.

The BDI Federation of German Industry warned Germany would lose at least 0.5% of its GDP - and this at a time when the German economy is already heading south.

That, I think, is why there is a sudden, noticeable softening in tone when EU leaders speak about Brexit."

Ms Kramp-Kerrenbaur is the leader-in-waiting to take over from Merkel, so we should give her the benefit of some insight to the problem. The loss of GPD to an economy already faltering in an organisation with acknowledged financial and funding problems (recession, Italy and Greek debt problems etc) would have no small affect on the overall economic outlook.

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Ok, I'll bite. Let's suppose the forecast of a loss of 100k German jobs due to Brexit is correct. Agree?

German exports to the UK constitute around 6.5% of all German exports. So a 0.5% loss in German GDP would result from a smallish reduction in German exports. So if you take UK exports to Germany, France, Holland, Ireland, Belgium, Spain and Italy and ignore the other UK to EU exports you have approximately 38% of UK exports. Using the same ratio, the loss of those exports would constitute in excess of a 3% loss in UK GDP and 600k jobs lost.

If the Germans are worried, the UK subjects should be petrified ...

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Originally Posted by az city

Ok, I'll bite. Let's suppose the forecast of a loss of 100k German jobs due to Brexit is correct. Agree?

German exports to the UK constitute around 6.5% of all German exports. So a 0.5% loss in German GDP would result from a smallish reduction in German exports. So if you take UK exports to Germany, France, Holland, Ireland, Belgium, Spain and Italy and ignore the other UK to EU exports you have approximately 38% of UK exports. Using the same ratio, the loss of those exports would constitute in excess of a 3% loss in UK GDP and 600k jobs lost.

If the Germans are worried, the UK subjects should be petrified ...

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Indeed. The maths are pretty simple on this one. And yet we keep hearing this "it's worse for them than us' line, presumably perpetuated by trash papers like the DM. When will these people wake up?

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Originally Posted by speedyblue

We already have one with both. The US are not going to give little UK the same trade deal as they give the big EU... That's how trade deals work.... The bigger you are the better the deal you get. It also takes years to negotiate trade deals, they don't just grow in trees and personally I wouldn't trust this government to negotiate a reduced price on a sofa from DFS

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Little UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Swiss Peter

Indeed. The maths are pretty simple on this one. And yet we keep hearing this "it's worse for them than us' line, presumably perpetuated by trash papers like the DM. When will these people wake up?

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I never said it was worse for them than us.
The only reason I posted the comment (By a senior German Politician) was because earlier in the thread when WB said a no deal would hurt the Germans he was ridiculed by people, and it was suggestyed that they would barely notice. The only real point is that it is an ITK German politician saying it, not some layman with a personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by az city

Ok, I'll bite. Let's suppose the forecast of a loss of 100k German jobs due to Brexit is correct. Agree?

German exports to the UK constitute around 6.5% of all German exports. So a 0.5% loss in German GDP would result from a smallish reduction in German exports. So if you take UK exports to Germany, France, Holland, Ireland, Belgium, Spain and Italy and ignore the other UK to EU exports you have approximately 38% of UK exports. Using the same ratio, the loss of those exports would constitute in excess of a 3% loss in UK GDP and 600k jobs lost.

If the Germans are worried, the UK subjects should be petrified ...

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Az I'm not dis agreeing with you, but see my previous post regarding my reason for posting the comment. It was only in the spirit of fair debate. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You can ask lardy about my analytical skillIs. The secret is to never take sides, and just look at the facts :biggrin:

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Beyond most of us I'm afraid, but, who knows, maybe you might be able to do it one day eh?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

People knew what they were voting for, you are just repeating the media construct that they didn't know.

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Seems a bit opinioish for someone who deals only in facts - my own opinion, and recollection from the way the matter was discussed three years ago, is that people leaving without a deal, which someone like you would, apparently, have us believe was the preferred method of getting out of the EU on Referendum day was barely discussed.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Little UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world :biggrin:

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One place behind Germany who are, we are told, getting themselves into a terrible state at the prospect of a no deal Brexit and yet Farage and the ERG nutters keep on banging on about what a great opportunity such a situation would provide us with :shrug:.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

One place behind Germany who are, we are told, getting themselves into a terrible state at the prospect of a no deal Brexit and yet Farage and the ERG nutters keep on banging on about what a great opportunity such a situation would provide us with :shrug:.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angu...s_by_GDP_(PPP)


In 1980 we were eighth, 1990 eighth, 2000 tenth, 2010 ninth.

Almost as if the way the EU has changed has been good for us. It's another example of the cognitive dissonance mentioned earlier. Brexiters really shouldn't be using our good economy as an argument, but for some reason they do.

How can anyone say any of one’s what we were voting for? In November 2016 (after the vote) everyone was still saying we would be in the single market. Johnson and Gove wrote articles on it for the sun.

This was after the no vote so anyone saying no deal was what was expected and wanted from the start is talking complete rubbish.

Here’s one from the month after the vote too, the gas lighting on this is ridiculous-

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

https://twitter.com/frankmcnallyit/s...866241536?s=21

Cognitive dissonance the order of the day for all brexitteers.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

How can anyone say any of one’s what we were voting for? In November 2016 (after the vote) everyone was still saying we would be in the single market. Johnson and Gove wrote articles on it for the sun.

This was after the no vote so anyone saying no deal was what was expected and wanted from the start is talking complete rubbish.

Here’s one from the month after the vote too, the gas lighting on this is ridiculous-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7104846.html

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The public voted for no deal, Johnson is for Johnson and no one else hence he was said to have a different speech/article backing different sides ready depending on the result of Brexit.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

The public voted for no deal, Johnson is for Johnson and no one else hence he was said to have a different speech/article backing different sides ready depending on the result of Brexit.

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When did the public vote for 'no deal'?

I missed that one.

Found an article about Johnson now Croesy Blue:-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...emaining-in-eu

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Originally Posted by jon1959

When did the public vote for 'no deal'?

I missed that one.

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That is what leave meant to most ordinary folk that voted out, I know many that voted leave and have asked them.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

That is what leave meant to most ordinary folk that voted out, I know many that voted leave and have asked them.

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Mmm ok

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was...on-referendum/

Old, thick and stupid was the headlines straight after the referendum, now nearly 3 years later some people think that those people were voting for Canada this and Norway that, single market this and customs union that, lol.
Oh no they were voting out as in OUT.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Old, thick and stupid was the headlines straight after the referendum, now nearly 3 years later some people think that those people were voting for Canada this and Norway that, single market this and customs union that, lol.
Oh no they were voting out as in OUT.

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In your opinion.

The link I have just posted shows that, in a Referendum where the question was a straightforward yes or no (so you would have hoped that those trying to influence voters would have been as precise and clear in the language they used as possible), politicians were imprecise in the use of their language to a degree that is not acceptable when the decision being taken was such an important one.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

That is what leave meant to most ordinary folk that voted out, I know many that voted leave and have asked them.

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In the early years, every time I asked a leave voter "Why?" I got a different answer.

Now all they do is repeat the mantra "Brexit means Brexit, Out means Out" the stupid ****ers have probably forgotten why they voted out in the first place. Twats.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

When did the public vote for 'no deal'?

I missed that one.

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The first person to say "No Deal" was May when she first uttered the phrase "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal". Until then, no-one countenanced it at all.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Old, thick and stupid was the headlines straight after the referendum, now nearly 3 years later some people think that those people were voting for Canada this and Norway that, single market this and customs union that, lol.
Oh no they were voting out as in OUT.

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The famous quote was it'll be the easiest deal in history. Probably one of the top three most memorable things from the leave campaign.

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Originally Posted by JennyWren

In the early years, every time I asked a leave voter "Why?" I got a different answer.

Now all they do is repeat the mantra "Brexit means Brexit, Out means Out" the stupid ****ers have probably forgotten why they voted out in the first place. Twats.

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And now all the remainers do is repeat the mantra 'the 17.4m who voted out didnt know what they were doing'. The stupid ******* actually probably think that they are doing us all a favour. Twats.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

And now all the remainers do is repeat the mantra 'the 17.4m who voted out didnt know what they were doing'. The stupid ******* actually probably think that they are doing us all a favour. Twats.

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I think you need to extend that quotation to the end of your post :hehe:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Now you are getting ****ing personal. You do not know I have Russian sympathies. you know sod all about me. Do not suggest I have lost touch with anything. If you had ever lived in Azerbaijan and seen how ordinary folks live (if you can call it that) you would never ever dream of making the stupid comment you did.

You haven't changed have you jirga?

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You have lost touch with how democracy works in more established countries. The vote was 3 years ago, things have changed, and I have yet to read a single positive reason for leaving other than your pathetic statement of "they won". It's not a football game.

I haven't been to Azerbaijan, but I have been to other places where dictatorship is ripe. In fact, some of the things May has been doing lately (using tax payers money to promote her anti-MP speech for example) are completely in line with demagogues that are in power in places like Venezuela, the Philippines, China and the US right now.

Living in a place like Azerbaijan where people are arrested arbitrarily, detained indefinitely, and disappear for ever, I can fully respect the wish of many of its inhabitants to stay on the right side of the law. Hopefully my opinion that, just in doing that just in order to survive, that people suddenly become defenders of their criminal and illegal Governments. It's not brainwashing, per se, but it is a form of conditioning. Therefore, my statement is not stupid, it is considerably better thought out than your "banter" madness.

This, however, is the UK. We're expected to abide by a vote that was not legally binding, the fact of which means that certain rules were broken but did not invalidate the result. It was an unnecessary election that pandered to pricks like Rees-Mogg and Yaxley-Lennon in equal measure (but with different agendas). It was borne from a media campaign that blamed immigration for whatever minor problems existed in the UK at the time, a campaign that tangibly ended following the referendum result. And, according to polls, the country is now a Remain country. What is undemocratic about asking people to vote again? Preferably on the following question

1) Leave with No Deal
2) Remain

In 1974 there were TWO general elections. Was that undemocratic?

Between 1935-1945 there were ZERO elections. Was that undemocratic?

Democracy is fluid, as am I which means that I do change and I am happy to do so based on evidence. However, you seem to prefer to tug your forelocks and let the clever folks like Rees-Mogg make the decisions.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

And now all the remainers do is repeat the mantra 'the 17.4m who voted out didnt know what they were doing'. The stupid ******* actually probably think that they are doing us all a favour. Twats.

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No, they usually blow away leavers stupid comments on things like the Lisbon Treaty, and the number of rules the EU actually forced on the UK (It's fewer than 100 btw).

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...exit-1-5978705

Leavers tend to do things like Piers Morgan, and melt away in the heat of a fact. Twats.

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Originally Posted by JennyWren

You have lost touch with how democracy works in more established countries. The vote was 3 years ago, things have changed, and I have yet to read a single positive reason for leaving other than your pathetic statement of "they won". It's not a football game.

I haven't been to Azerbaijan, but I have been to other places where dictatorship is ripe. In fact, some of the things May has been doing lately (using tax payers money to promote her anti-MP speech for example) are completely in line with demagogues that are in power in places like Venezuela, the Philippines, China and the US right now.

Living in a place like Azerbaijan where people are arrested arbitrarily, detained indefinitely, and disappear for ever, I can fully respect the wish of many of its inhabitants to stay on the right side of the law. Hopefully my opinion that, just in doing that just in order to survive, that people suddenly become defenders of their criminal and illegal Governments. It's not brainwashing, per se, but it is a form of conditioning. Therefore, my statement is not stupid, it is considerably better thought out than your "banter" madness.

This, however, is the UK. We're expected to abide by a vote that was not legally binding, the fact of which means that certain rules were broken but did not invalidate the result. It was an unnecessary election that pandered to pricks like Rees-Mogg and Yaxley-Lennon in equal measure (but with different agendas). It was borne from a media campaign that blamed immigration for whatever minor problems existed in the UK at the time, a campaign that tangibly ended following the referendum result. And, according to polls, the country is now a Remain country. What is undemocratic about asking people to vote again? Preferably on the following question

1) Leave with No Deal
2) Remain

In 1974 there were TWO general elections. Was that undemocratic?

Between 1935-1945 there were ZERO elections. Was that undemocratic?

Democracy is fluid, as am I which means that I do change and I am happy to do so based on evidence. However, you seem to prefer to tug your forelocks and let the clever folks like Rees-Mogg make the decisions.

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You are extremely insulting. I have lost touch with nothing. You are well over the line!!!!!

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Originally Posted by lardy

The famous quote was it'll be the easiest deal in history. Probably one of the top three most memorable things from the leave campaign.

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I don't remember it from the leave campaign but it was a well known quote from near enough a full year after the referendum.

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Originally Posted by JennyWren

In the early years, every time I asked a leave voter "Why?" I got a different answer.

Now all they do is repeat the mantra "Brexit means Brexit, Out means Out" the stupid ****ers have probably forgotten why they voted out in the first place. Twats.

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Immigrants taking our jobs, foreigners in Brussels telling us what to do and we pay in more than we get back out was the reasons usually said by vote leavers and they wanted out as in out, no half measures.

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Originally Posted by JennyWren

The first person to say "No Deal" was May when she first uttered the phrase "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal". Until then, no-one countenanced it at all.

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Yes quite, I use that one all the time ' no deal is better than a bad deal' because she now seems to think the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

In your opinion.

The link I have just posted shows that, in a Referendum where the question was a straightforward yes or no (so you would have hoped that those trying to influence voters would have been as precise and clear in the language they used as possible), politicians were imprecise in the use of their language to a degree that is not acceptable when the decision being taken was such an important one.

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What leave meant to most leave voters was more in line with *no deal* than Norway plus, Canada minus and Common Market 2.0 or any other version of part in, part out.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

What leave meant to most leave voters was more in line with *no deal* than Norway plus, Canada minus and Common Market 2.0 or any other version of part in, part out.

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Fair play to you. It must have been a full time job carrying out those 17,410,742 detailed face-to-face interviews to understand what every Leave voter had in mind when they put their cross on the ballot.

Many commentators thought that with the leave vote winning the referendum that UKIP would disappear but with Brexit still up in the air the Newport West by-election seems to show UKIP alive and kicking, if we have Euro elections in May it will be interesting to see how well Brexit parties do.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

You are extremely insulting. I have lost touch with nothing. You are well over the line!!!!!

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Still yet to give a benefit to leaving.

Still yet to explain how a second vote is undemocratic.

Still defending the oppressive regime in Azerbaijan.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Seems a bit opinioish for someone who deals only in facts - my own opinion, and recollection from the way the matter was discussed three years ago, is that people leaving without a deal, which someone like you would, apparently, have us believe was the preferred method of getting out of the EU on Referendum day was barely discussed.

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Cameron made it very clear what leave meant in his Chatham House speach.

For those who missed it the first time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXE

What he is saying there is that a Leave vote means that we will leave, no more than that. I voted in the Referendum believing that and I still think the Leave vote should be respected and we shouldn't have a second vote on the subject. However, what Cameron is not saying there is that a Leave vote means we definitely leave on WTO terms, which is the line being trotted out now by those who want us out with no deal. If there's a customs deal, a Norway type outcome, Common Market 2, Canada type or whatever, the result is the same, we will leave the EU, which is what the 17.4 million voted for.