Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's a conclusion based on reading his posts. Equally he could explain how my definition of a decent society differs to his. I would suggest that is a more outlandish claim and one I take some offence to, although thats fine.
My argument is that because the overwhelming majority of people want a good, decent fair and compassionate asylum and immigration system, they fail to recognise that the current system is broken and needs fixing because ideologically it is awkward for them to do so, so they have to present an alternative as being evil, vile and all the rest of it. Being wedded to that line of thinking can prevent the proper identification of the problem and thus the proper solutions. In this instance, removing criminal gangs from the process is absolutely critical and some kind of stronger disincentive is probably necessary.
Our and France's inability to stop this is shameful in my opinion and you need to be able to look at all practical solutions with a calm head and consider what may and may not work and not be afraid of a different approach.
It isn't just about it 'working', taking a rocket launcher to the dinghy's half way across the channel would 'work' as a deterrent. It needs to also be a solution that we believe matches the ethos of the country we live in. I don't think the policy meets that requirement. Add that to the high financial cost, and the strong possibility that it won't reduce attempts and it is a no go for me.
The more I read the official agreement, the more it looks like the prime intention is to give the government political cover to start removing illegals without assessing their case fairly, i.e. their method of entry trumps their actual claim to asylum.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
What a stretch of imagination it is to say that most people want a good, decent fair and compassionate asylum system. As someone else posted setting up a processing centre on French soil could be part of that and would take the traffickers out of the system or at least reduce down their activity to the small proportion of people who don't have their applications accepted. As this seems by far the biggest issue for you rather than the people arriving sounds like a winner for you.
Why a government pandering to people's wish for a good, decent, fair and compassionate asylum system would come up with gunboats in the Channel and forced expulsion to the middle of Africa when there are legal options being opened up rather than closed down is anyone's guess.
As I've said before - Are France happy with your solution? Would it work? Do France want that on their soil? What happens to those who fail the process and travel on boats anyway. It's an idea, but Im not sure you're proposal works.
You do a disservice to the Navy when you speak of gunboats. Thats the kind of emotive language that removes this debate from reality into sensation.
No forced expulsions either, other than a consequence for doing something illegal and if you are in France you are in a safe country, so it's a decision people will have to make.
The long term solution of course is to make the world a more egalitarian place, I am sure we are all in agreement on that. Again, this needs sorting, especially with anticipated future global migration trends
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
As I've said before - Are France happy with your solution? Would it work? Do France want that on their soil? What happens to those who fail the process and travel on boats anyway. It's an idea, but Im not sure you're proposal works.
You do a disservice to the Navy when you speak of gunboats. Thats the kind of emotive language that removes this debate from reality into sensation.
No forced expulsions either, other than a consequence for doing something illegal and if you are in France you are in a safe country, so it's a decision people will have to make.
The long term solution of course is to make the world a more egalitarian place, I am sure we are all in agreement on that. Again, this needs sorting, especially with anticipated future global migration trends
Our and France's inability to stop this is shameful in my opinion and you need to be able to look at all practical solutions with a calm head and consider what may and may not work
Well that took all of 10 minutes with a calm head!
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
It isn't just about it 'working', taking a rocket launcher to the dinghy's half way across the channel would 'work' as a deterrent. It needs to also be a solution that we believe matches the ethos of the country we live in. I don't think the policy meets that requirement. Add that to the high financial cost, and the strong possibility that it won't reduce attempts and it is a no go for me.
The more I read the official agreement, the more it looks like the prime intention is to give the government political cover to start removing illegals without assessing their case fairly, i.e. their method of entry trumps their actual claim to asylum.
Completely agree with your first point. It has to fit our ethos. The current set up (which a disturbing number of people seem okay with in my opinion) isn't. It's unfair, favours the fitter or wealthier, is dangerous and enriches criminal gangs whilst creating unknown levels of migrants whom we then have to check, care for and ingratiate into society at not inconsiderable cost.
Doing the right thing DOES cost money, I dont mind that. Im proud we are one of the worlds biggest foreign aid donors even after the recent cut. But the point is we are NOT doing the right thing at the moment.
I think this is worth trying. No one forces anyone to come here, by definition they are in a safe country at the moment and there are legal means to coming to the country they can (and should) try.
None of us know if this policy will work, but I suspect it is worth trying and I wonder whether it is something other countries will do - we know already Denmark (centre left govt btw) is at least talking about this - does anyone know if their scheme is in operation and working?
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Our and France's inability to stop this is shameful in my opinion and you need to be able to look at all practical solutions with a calm head and consider what may and may not work
Well that took all of 10 minutes with a calm head!
It's only a few paragraphs old bean - and I didnt want to leave it more than ten minutes as I'm sure you want to read what I have to say before getting on and enjoying your easter sunday. And you claim i lack compassion! :shrug:
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's only a few paragraphs old bean - and I didnt want to leave it more than ten minutes as I'm sure you want to read what I have to say before getting on and enjoying your easter sunday. And you claim i lack compassion! :shrug:
Thought the point was to look at things rationally with that famed open mind of yours. My mistake. Enjoy the egg hunt!
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Thought the point was to look at things rationally with that famed open mind of yours. My mistake. Enjoy the egg hunt!
I don't think those important principles require hour long breaks in-between..
Thanks, you too. I was up at 6am in my bunny outfit.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Thanks for illustrating my point so promptly. :thumbup:
But you say you don't care if it's left or right if it works. We've had an extreme right wing government for 12 years and literally everything is getting worse and every single post you make is defending it.
You site poor examples such as minimum wage going up while completely failing to understand that inflation has increased by far more so this shows that what you've said about following the best ideas as being compelte rubbish.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Our and France's inability to stop this is shameful in my opinion and you need to be able to look at all practical solutions with a calm head and consider what may and may not work
Well that took all of 10 minutes with a calm head!
Think the UK have tried to talk with the French sadly they don't like us and have thier own racist views
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Think the UK have tried to talk with the French sadly they don't like us and have thier own racist views
You probably missed that I cut and pasted your mates, James Wales views.
Having said that, I'm sure you have links in your social media to French racist views that hate the idea that natural born French are minorities in their cities as much as you do.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
But you say you don't care if it's left or right if it works. We've had an extreme right wing government for 12 years and literally everything is getting worse and every single post you make is defending it.
You site poor examples such as minimum wage going up while completely failing to understand that inflation has increased by far more so this shows that what you've said about following the best ideas as being compelte rubbish.
Extreme right wing government for 12 years? That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Pretty offensive to those in history that have genuinely suffered under extreme right-wing governments.
You aren't right on the one example given either- Minimum wage has increased at well above the rate of inflation in the last few years (and rightly so)O
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
It's interesting though. I was just pondering the successful extremes we have had in government in my lifetime. Probably from the left it was Harold Wilson's governments in the 70s. On the right Thatcher's 2nd administration after she purged the "wets" with Norman "on your bike" Tebbit took some beating.
I can't think of anything else that matches the cynical crowd we have today though, how about you?
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
They are being sent to Rwanda for an all expenses paid holiday in the sun while sumptuous accommodation is arranged for their return along with a full suite of welfare benefits.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Come on lads, FFS! Don't wonder why the government can't stop illegal immigration, ask why they are facilitating it.
The cute reasoning is May signed up to the UN's Global Compact for Migration. But that doesn't fly because it is non-binding.
The Fifth Columnists inside the UK, those MPs who wear different colour rosettes but play for the same side, have been implementing the Kalergi Plan for decades.
English Channel during 2020 - Nigel Farage witnesses illegal migrants entering British waters - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEW-nd2OsAo
Same location in 2021, nowt's changed - Nigel Farage spots migrant boat crossing English Channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70yLMRUvX3I
Ask yourself why Nigel Farage has the energy to expose this caper when news crews from ITV, BBC, Channel 4 and 5 along with the aforementioned Fifth Columnists refuse to. It's the same reason why all those very carefully and deliberately omitted telling their constituents and viewers that the manufacturers of the clot shots enjoyed absolute financial indemnity for their 'safe' products... and that's because they didn't and still don't want people to know.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Completely agree with your first point. It has to fit our ethos. The current set up (which a disturbing number of people seem okay with in my opinion) isn't. It's unfair, favours the fitter or wealthier, is dangerous and enriches criminal gangs whilst creating unknown levels of migrants whom we then have to check, care for and ingratiate into society at not inconsiderable cost.
Doing the right thing DOES cost money, I dont mind that. Im proud we are one of the worlds biggest foreign aid donors even after the recent cut. But the point is we are NOT doing the right thing at the moment.
I think this is worth trying. No one forces anyone to come here, by definition they are in a safe country at the moment and there are legal means to coming to the country they can (and should) try.
None of us know if this policy will work, but I suspect it is worth trying and I wonder whether it is something other countries will do - we know already Denmark (centre left govt btw) is at least talking about this - does anyone know if their scheme is in operation and working?
Well depends how you define success. This pivots our immigration system to one whereby your method of entry is the key part of your claim, if you arrive illegally then your claim will not be assessed, despite the fact that the majority who arrive illegally and present themselves to the authorities are currently approved for asylum. This would be okay if the official channels weren't deliberately slow (and a cynic might say about to get a whole lot slower). We want to use the asylum process as a tool for virtue signalling British generosity rather than as a way to genuinely help those in need.
The other side of this is a barbarism of the proposed process. Under the agreement we shall present a list of names/details of illegal immigrants to the UK (the document doesn't mention a cut off so this could include people who entered the UK at any point) to Rwanda and they will pick who they will take. The person will then be given a short period of time to successfully appeal before being shipped off to Rwanda. At no point do they get asked if they want to go or whether they want to return to their country of origin. At no point does the person's claim to asylum get assessed.
It isn't clear if this will reduce channel crossings but I think you could be pretty sure it will reduce the likelihood of anybody who is here illegally willingly interacting with an institution of the state (i.e. reporting a crime, attending a hospital for urgent medical care).
I think you need to be very clear about what you are supporting here:
- It ensures that the UK will help less genuine asylum seekers than before.
- It allows for people who arrive (or have previously arrived) illegally to be forcibly deported without their claim to asylum being assessed.
- There is no evidence it will reduce human trafficking.
- It incentivises illegal entrants to not interact with society, increasing the likelihood of them being taken advantage of.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Extreme right wing government for 12 years? That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Pretty offensive to those in history that have genuinely suffered under extreme right-wing governments.
(and rightly so)O
So you're just going to ignore austerity deaths, covid deaths (right wing countries had worse death rate than lefts ones) nevermind the dramatic increase in poverty over the past 12 years then?
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
So you're just going to ignore austerity deaths, covid deaths (right wing countries had worse death rate than lefts ones) nevermind the dramatic increase in poverty over the past 12 years then?
Sorry? What? Start again. You have just mentioned a few random (but important) cherry picked stats there and not delved into them at all, whilst of course not mentioned a great many random (but important) stats on other topics.
I'm not arguing whether left or right-wing governments handled Covid better, because I don't view things through that binary narrow spectrum. Equally, I'm not arguing whether Catholic or Protestent countries handled it better, or capitalist or communist countries. I strongly suspect that no clear pattern emerged and in terms of Covid restrictions, they don't fit easily into a left/right scale anyway as all, in normal times, were extremely authoritarian.
My point is that you said Britain has had an extreme right-wing government for 12 years, which is clearly absolutely nonsense and clear hyperbole even for this board.
It's fine, we all exaggerate, but no need to double down on it
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Sorry? What? Start again. You have just mentioned a few random (but important) cherry picked stats there and not delved into them at all, whilst of course not mentioned a great many random (but important) stats on other topics.
I'm not arguing whether left or right-wing governments handled Covid better, because I don't view things through that binary narrow spectrum. Equally, I'm not arguing whether Catholic or Protestent countries handled it better, or capitalist or communist countries. I strongly suspect that no clear pattern emerged and in terms of Covid restrictions, they don't fit easily into a left/right scale anyway as all, in normal times, were extremely authoritarian.
My point is that you said Britain has had an extreme right-wing government for 12 years, which is clearly absolutely nonsense and clear hyperbole even for this board.
It's fine, we all exaggerate, but no need to double down on it
It isn't though is it. The current government are extreme right wing e.g. priviatise everything, send assylum seekers to Rwanda, you're absolutely deluded if you think otherwise. I then provided facts to show people have suffered under this extreme right wing government.
Honestly if you were Russian you'd defend Putin.
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
I've tried reading through some of the replies , apologies if I missed the straight answer to the OP as there are so many moving goalposts, is the question too tough ??
Again would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwanda Solution????
Simple yes or no will do instead of the usual personal attacks .
Re: Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I've tried reading through some of the replies , apologies if I missed the straight answer to the OP as there are so many moving goalposts, is the question too tough ??
Again would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwanda Solution????
Simple yes or no will do instead of the usual personal attacks .
Were the replies too difficult to understand?
Yes although there isn't really anything to reverse yet.