If we won the Premier League 10 years running what crowds do you think we’d get?
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West Ham were getting 34k average crowds at the Boleyn Ground. I seriously doubt there were 25k every week desperately trying to get what spare tickets were available for home games. They haven't had a fan base above that and were averaging around 22k in the early days of the PL.
I think there's just such an enormous catchment area withing Greater London [9 million], and a culture of staying within the area for any form of recreation - whereas we may head off to the coast/countryside - that to have the opportunity to watch PL football 20 odd times a season, even though you weren't really a WHU fan, is an attractive proposition. It's definitely a 'London' thing.
We lost 6.6k after our first relegation and 8.6k after our second. Both times that was around 25% of our fan base. Such drops in attendance are not unusual by any means. I'll happily repeat myself again and say that virtually the only clubs that have not suffered drops in attendance after relegation from the PL are those who have enjoyed a long history in the top division. There are sides who have enjoyed more top flight football than us over the last 50 years that have seen crowds drop by more than ours has.
Norwich probably keep a lot of theirs, they get battered every week in the Premier, we know how that feels and normally batter everyone in the Championship, so they probably enjoy it more?
Glad to see them not finding it easy so far this season, long may it continue!
Norwich's support was maintained even when they went down to League 1. Other sides like Leicester and Southampton saw their crowds drop.
From the mid 70s Norwich spent 20 out of 23 seasons in the top division. Their support didn't wobble in the 80s and 90s like most. I guess there isn't a lot else to do in that part of the world, that the football club is a huge part of the community.
Norwich 23rd in the attendance league , but they have been more successful than most
http://european-football-statistics....eague/norc.htm
City , with much less success 32nd
http://european-football-statistics....eague/carc.htm
West Ham are 10th in the all time attendance figures
http://european-football-statistics....league/whu.htm
They could easily manage 60,000 over a sustained period.
Not sure if this is of interest, but here's a table I've created showing league teams ranked by overall average attendance and a comparison with their overall league ranking. To save time I've taken the list of total attendances and divided by number of home games played, so one or two teams might be out by a position or two as my data doesn't include cup games. Not that it matters, this is just a comparison. For overall league ranking, I've taken an average of each teams' league position at the end of the season (adjusted per division, so currently bottom of the Championship would be 44th). This is how average attendance rank and average league position rank compare.
I've just listed the top 50. On the left is the attendance rank. On the right is the average position rank and the difference between them, calculated attendance rank minus position rank. The more negative that number, the better a club's average crowd has been given their league performance; the more positive a number, that club's crowds haven't matched their league positions.
1 Manchester United 4 (-3)
2 Arsenal FC 2 (0)
3 Liverpool FC 1 (2)
4 Tottenham Hotspur FC 5 (-1)
5 Chelsea FC 7 (-2)
6 Newcastle United FC 9 (-3)
7 Everton FC 3 (4)
8 Manchester City FC 8 (0)
9 Aston Villa FC 6 (3)
10 West Ham United FC 12 (-2)
11 Sunderland AFC 10 (1)
12 Leeds United FC 15 (-3)
13 Sheffield Wednesday FC 18 (-5)
14 Wolverhampton Wanderers FC 14 (0)
15 Birmingham City FC 23 (-8)
16 West Bromwich Albion FC 11 (5)
17 Middlesbrough FC 17 (0)
18 Leicester City FC 19 (-1)
19 Sheffield United FC 20 (-1)
20 Southampton FC 25 (-5)
21 Nottingham Forest FC 24 (-3)
22 Derby County FC 16 (6)
23 Ipswich Town FC 27 (-4)
24 Norwich City FC 36 (-12)
25 Bolton Wanderers FC 21 (4)
26 Stoke City FC 22 (4)
27 Portsmouth FC 31 (-4)
28 Coventry City FC 34 (-6)
29 Crystal Palace FC 38 (-9)
30 Blackburn Rovers FC 13 (17)
31 Fulham FC 30 (1)
32 Cardiff City FC 39 (-7)
33 Charlton Athletic FC 33 (0)
34 Burnley FC 26 (8)
35 Huddersfield Town AFC 32 (3)
36 Queens Park Rangers FC 37 (-1)
37 Preston North End FC 28 (9)
38 Bristol City FC 41 (-3)
39 Brighton & Hove Albion FC 52 (-13)
40 Millwall FC 47 (-7)
41 Hull City AFC 44 (-3)
42 Plymouth Argyle FC 53 (-11)
43 Watford FC 48 (-5)
44 Blackpool FC 35 (9)
45 Swansea City AFC 49 (-4)
46 Luton Town FC 40 (6)
47 Reading FC 54 (-7)
48 Bradford City AFC 56 (-8)
49 Bradford Park Avenue AFC 55 (-6)
50 Notts County FC 42 (8)
Hate to say it, but Sludge got a point when it comes to Cardiff and our support. Always been fickle and I don’t think in a million years we’d average 60K, even with sustained success.
If you look at our league history compared to other teams, you probably wouldn’t see another club with such peaks and troughs with its support. Up and down like a yo yo.
Our highest average is approximately 38,000 back in the 50’s. Football was in a post war boom then and even then we didn’t average over 40k in the old Division 1.
Counter point, top flight crowds on average have gotten much bigger since then. In the 50's the average Division 1 crowd was ~30k, over the past decade the Premier League average is ~38k. If our crowds rose by roughly the same amount then we'd be looking at 45k average crowds for a midtable PL team.
Boleyn ground capacity was 35,000 so basically sold out every week Same as Spurs at the old WHL don't see people saying they wont maintain their crowds over a season and considering most of their support (West Ham) is from Essex all they way to Southend/Colchester its definitely not a London thing
Are you being purposely obtuse?
"midtable PL team" is what I said. I'm not saying 45k people would turn up to watch us play Luton, Coventry or West Brom but if we were an established Premier League team finishing midtable then I don't see why 45k is an unreasonable average crowd considering we were selling out a 33k stadium in a relegation season.
When we averaged 38k in the top flight the division average was ~31k. The division average is now ~38k. Crowds on a whole have increased since then, why do you think Cardiff City would be an exception?
You keep saying we only get big crowds for big games. Cup finals, promotions, etc and that our support is only ~16k. The Premier League is a big draw, one that's proven to draw our fairweather fans out in their thousands. If we spent 5 years in the Premier League do you think our 33k crowds would drop back to the ~20k average we've been having in the Championship for the past several years.
I think West Ham have a much larger catchment area and historic support base, but I think you could be right. If City had a ground that held 45,000-50,000, I think 45,000 average is viable for a mid table ranked premier league team.
We would achieve those gates with more difficulty than others; we would have to offer student prices, large away allocations and have good value tickets, but I don't think it's entirely unrealistic.
I do think City's support is pretty fickle mind.
On a separate note, If Bristol Rovers had a brand new 25,000 seater stadium , do you think they would fill it ?
Bristol City fans I know think Rovers are a small club, however , I think they are bigger than Bristol City.