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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:20
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by Vimana. wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:52
It is about money - certainly to some degree or another.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Aspirational voters.
I can get my head round it thanks. I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Gluey wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
I don't see why being right wing doesn't mean you can't cooperate with your fellow man. I also don't see how 38% of the population can be considered an elite group who want to help each other
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
The way I see it is that the Tories want a strong economy to build a strong society and labour want a strong society to build a strong economy.
Any crumbs that come down to the bottom from a Tory governmnet are purley to keep the workers healthy so they can continue to create wealth for the rich and to prevent any uprising of the working classes.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:27
The way I see it is that the Tories want a strong economy to build a strong society and labour want a strong society to build a strong economy.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
Wrong, the Tories want a strong economy to build a stong economy. they are not interestd in society. Dont forget Maggie wanted us to believe 'there is no such thing as society'.
That is your opinion Which once again is clouded by your ideology. do you really think that all Tories voters - all 38% of the popular vote - are rich or have aspirations to be rich? I'm not sure you can make such a generalisation?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
You might not like it, but it is fact, not crass. If they care for their fellow man, then they would not be voting tory - unless they are blind to the nature of the tory party.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:31
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
So is Hutton saying it's all about money?
My values have nothing to do with what I said about Hutton's patriotism. Truth is that, although nationalism often makes me feel uneasy, I'm a Welsh patriot, but I don't think I'm much of a British one. On the other hand, it seems to me that what Hutton says makes him a British patriot in a different way to what many would think the term means these days - for me though, that's English patriotism rather than British patriotism.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:30
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
I have never understood why people on the right are constntly in denial about their views. I am proud to say i am on the left. I am proud to say that i am in favour of equality and social justice. Why do people like the BNP constantly deny they are racist and tories deny they are about self interest. I just dont get it. Perhaps deep down they know they have something to be ashamed of.
More dogma. Having conservative values doesn't mean you don't care for your fellow man. There are many aspects of conservatism and to suggest it's all about self is a little wide of the mark.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:33
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
is there any chance of you engaging in a civil way without resorting to the gutter level. I don't see why those on the right have to be ashamed Just like those on the left have nothing to be ashamed of either. Opinions are formed from personal experiences and yet here you are trying to judge everyone who disagrees with your world view without knowing their reasons for having those opinions in the first place.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Kiffa wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:34
It's not really news that the Tories want to see a smaller state.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:29
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:30
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
I have never understood why people on the right are constntly in denial about their views. I am proud to say i am on the left. I am proud to say that i am in favour of equality and social justice. Why do people like the BNP constantly deny they are racist and tories deny they are about self interest. I just dont get it. Perhaps deep down they know they have something to be ashamed of.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
more crass generalisations archie. 38% of the popular vote goes to the Tories and I reckon you're wrong to say that each and every one of them doesn't care for their fellow man.
Yes, there are many aspects to conservatism (with a small c). However we were talking about the Conservative Party (large C). Two different animals.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:34
Its not surprising to see them wax lyrical over a permanent state of austerity while sitting in a golden throne enjoying a 5 course feast complete with copious amounts of champagne either.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:32
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:33
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
is there any chance of you engaging in a civil way without resorting to the gutter level. I don't see why those on the right have to be ashamed Just like those on the left have nothing to be ashamed of either. Opinions are formed from personal experiences and yet here you are trying to judge everyone who disagrees with your world view without knowing their reasons for having those opinions in the first place.
Can you please confirm, if you are not ashamed of your values, why are you denying them?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
I can only speak for myself but I'm not ashamed of my political views which I assume would be right wing, however I never realised they were a chest thumping thing to claim to be proud of either. http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/shrug.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
<b>
It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:04
You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.
I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
It is quite simple.
I don't really see how it's possible for anyone to deny that - this is a fact http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/shrug.gif Left wing politics advocates the distribution of wealth, whereas right wing politics advocates a 'survival of the strongest' approach - in a capitalistic society it is power and wealth that makes you one of the 'strongest'
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:06
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
<b>
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
It is quite simple.
I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by TruBlue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:06
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 13:01
So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:56
Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:51
<b>
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42
It is quite simple.
Politics is anything but simple imo, but right wing politics is more about protecting ones personal wealth above all else, whereas left wing politics is about sacrificing / distributing ones own personal wealth for the greater good. It's a difference in philosophical outlooks as far as I can see and that ultimately would for me decide on whether one would vote for a right leaning or left leaning party
