Let's get the f*** out - (part 2)

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Originally Posted by jackrabbit

I really enjoyed that. Hannan is a very impressive thinker and speaker - I must get his book. Jones is a very good......listener.

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You're obviously easily impressed. He sits in a parliament (coining it in) he doesn't believe in. Surely the Einstein-brained one sees a slight contradiction.

He doesn't actually use any facts or logic either. It's all his own polemical BS.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Voting out of what?
It's Theresa May that wants to leave ECHR and replace it with a bill of rights, regardless of the EU referendum result.

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Out of the EU, we'll leave the ECHR too

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Originally Posted by jackrabbit

More grist to the mill: Charles Moore in the Telegraph.

"One of the most important features of the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy is that it allows voters to throw out one lot and put another in. This can never happen in the EU system. So the careers of the well-educated, unelected, “civilised” people who run the show are unimpeded by the will of the people.

Perhaps because I come from that class, I agree that a high education is a good thing and accept that societies must have their elites, but I also believe that the British genius has been to create a political system in which the common interest of the whole nation can be represented politically. This is impossible in the EU, where there is a ruling class on the one hand, and a sweaty mob (as the ruling class sees it), on the other. If you like that sort of system, when you contemplate your navel, you will vote to Remain.



Why should euro-officials pay less tax?

By far the best book setting out all European issues in topical form, is Why Leave? by Daniel Hannan, well known to readers of this paper. Hannan is crisp about how the interests of the above class are looked after in the Brussels set-up. More than a thousand EU officials earn more than David Cameron, and all officials working in EU institutions are exempt from national taxation. They pay a special EU income tax of 21 per cent. This rate is flat, so the richer you are, the better. British euro-officials who would have a top rate of 45 per cent here therefore pay less than half that. "

The 'Gravy Train' doesn't do it justice.

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I'm not for one minute defending the whole eu thing but I'm pretty sure we get to vote in European elections in the same way that we get to vote in a general election?

A vote between one tosser and another granted, but still a vote.

My opinion on this is quite simple - as much as there's plenty to dislike about the eu, I Have the suspicion that giving the tories free reign to do what they like without the eu keeping them in check would create a far worse country for the ordinary people.

For that reason alone I think staying in is the lesser of two evils.

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Originally Posted by Dr Lecter

My opinion on this is quite simple - as much as there's plenty to dislike about the eu, I Have the suspicion that giving the tories free reign to do what they like without the eu keeping them in check would create a far worse country for the ordinary people.

For that reason alone I think staying in is the lesser of two evils.

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Very nicely put.

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Originally Posted by Dr Lecter

I'm not for one minute defending the whole eu thing but I'm pretty sure we get to vote in European elections in the same way that we get to vote in a general election?

A vote between one tosser and another granted, but still a vote.

My opinion on this is quite simple - as much as there's plenty to dislike about the eu, I Have the suspicion that giving the tories free reign to do what they like without the eu keeping them in check would create a far worse country for the ordinary people.

For that reason alone I think staying in is the lesser of two evils.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Agreed.

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Using Dr Lecs analogy, My opinion is that the Tories are a lesser evil and more importantly, can be voted out next time around where as, an out vote will not be an option every 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Using Dr Lecs analogy, My opinion is that the Tories are a lesser evil and more importantly, can be voted out next time around where as, an out vote will not be an option every 5 years.

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Good luck on the Tories being voted out in the near future, especially with the restructuring of the constituencies and possible Scottish independence.

This will be like the shoeing the lindems got all over again and then people realise they were keeping the Tories in check. Working class people (especially in Wales) voting to be governed by a pure Tory government is turkeys voting for Christmas just like at the last election it will probably happen though.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Good luck on the Tories being voted out in the near future, especially with the restructuring of the constituencies and possible Scottish independence.

This will be like the shoeing the lindems got all over again and then people realise they were keeping the Tories in check. Working class people (especially in Wales) voting to be governed by a pure Tory government is turkeys voting for Christmas just like at the last election it will probably happen though.

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It's colonel mustard, in the drawing room, with a piece of pipe.

Lead pipe not "piece" of pipe :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Lead pipe not "piece" of pipe :hehe:

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Voting out of what?
It's Theresa May that wants to leave ECHR and replace it with a bill of rights, regardless of the EU referendum result.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Out of the EU, we'll leave the ECHR too

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Can you link me to where you got that information from?
As far as I'm aware there are 47 countries who are signed up to ECHR and only 28 of those are part of the EU, It is a requirement of the EU to be part of the ECHR but not the other way around.

That's exactly what the hard right Tories have always wanted, we're having a referendum so Dave can keep them happy. What do you think will happen next?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That's exactly what the hard right Tories have always wanted, we're having a referendum so Dave can keep them happy. What do you think will happen next?

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I was hoping you would link me to that information next. :biggrin:

Dominic Raab, a junior justice minister, said: “On the ECHR the government’s position remains clear. We cannot rule out withdrawal forever, but our forthcoming proposals do not include withdrawal from the convention"

Wait and see what happens, we will be under our own bill of rights within 5 years of leaving. It's obvious to anyone with slight knowledge of the subject that it's more than likely.

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Originally Posted by Dr Lecter

My opinion on this is quite simple - as much as there's plenty to dislike about the eu, I Have the suspicion that giving the tories free reign to do what they like without the eu keeping them in check would create a far worse country for the ordinary people.

For that reason alone I think staying in is the lesser of two evils.

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What makes you think that it's the EU keeping them in check? as much as I hate the tories they are the lesser of the two evils in this scenario as we can get rid of them after, that wont be the case with the EU, people are not thinking about this long term, it's almost like they have done it deliberately because they know nobody would want that dick head Boris in charge and will go for the only other option which is staying in to avoid that, on the other side you have Farage and his cronies giving the impression that anyone that wants to leave is a racist, it's absolutely perfect for them.

It's the EU that want to impose crap like this on us, Motorists could be charged for driving through ALL towns and cities under EU plans it will go through eventually because over 150 world leaders have signed up to the UN's sustainable development plans, it's a blueprint for taking control of everything to save the planet, eventually it will be only the wealthy that will be able to afford to travel as there will be carbon taxes on everything.

Can you explain to me how you think some bigwig in Brussels is voting on things in the interests of your family in Cardiff? there really is a simple answer to that, he isn't, does he care how long the waiting lists are for the NHS? nope, does he care that disabled people are getting less benefits? nope, we need to be making our own decisions, it's the only way to get what's best for our families imo.

Can you explain to me how the current London centric government is voting on things in the interest of you? Look at the state labour and Tory governments have let Wales outside of Cardiff and the north of England slip into.

I'd love to see sensible congestion charges for cities brought in, it works in London why not every city as long as they bring in suitable public transport and park and ride? We are polluting the shit out of everywhere and should be trying to cut that down. The fewer people on the roads the better, especially in busy urban areas.

If you believe it would be brought in for every single town you're falling for daily mail/sun propaganda.

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does he care how long the waiting lists are for the NHS? nope, does he care that disabled people are getting less benefits? nope, we need to be making our own decisions

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You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Exactly.

The UK government decides how much is spent on the NHS or disability benefits - it has nothing to do with the EU.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Dominic Raab, a junior justice minister, said: “On the ECHR the government’s position remains clear. We cannot rule out withdrawal forever, but our forthcoming proposals do not include withdrawal from the convention"

Wait and see what happens, we will be under our own bill of rights within 5 years of leaving. It's obvious to anyone with slight knowledge of the subject that it's more than likely.

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But do you have knowledge of the subject? Can you link me to the information that says if we leave the EU we will leave the ECHR?
Winston Churchill brought us in to the ECHR, we are one of its founding members and it has taken care of our human rights for something like 60 years, the fact that the insidious bitch Theresa May wants to get rid of it and stay in the EU is not a good thing imo, this has nothing to do with staying in the EU so we don't leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) though, they are two different things

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Just to be clear, I hate them ****ers as much as you do but putting up with Boris for a short time is a small inconvenience compared to a life time of being stuck in the EU.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Just to be clear, I hate them ****ers as much as you do but putting up with Boris for a short time is a small inconvenience compared to a life time of being stuck in the EU.

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A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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The tories could do more lasting damage to the UK in four years than the EU could do in ten, I've no doubt about that.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Likewise, I base my view on what I think is best for my kids and, in time, their kids.

We have a choice over who governs us in the EU as much as we do in the UK i.e. through elections every five years.

If we vote to remain then you can continue to campaign to leave the EU. I'm sure UKIP and their right wing friends in the Tory party (along with Kate Hoey, Frank Field and George Galloway) will carry on peddling their myths about the "undemocratic" EU, sovereignty, border control and immigrants taking all our jobs.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Likewise, I base my view on what I think is best for my kids and, in time, their kids.

We have a choice over who governs us in the EU as much as we do in the UK i.e. through elections every five years.

If we vote to remain then you can continue to campaign to leave the EU. I'm sure UKIP and their right wing friends in the Tory party (along with Kate Hoey, Frank Field and George Galloway) will carry on peddling their myths about the "undemocratic" EU, sovereignty, border control and immigrants taking all our jobs.

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There you go again trying to put me in the UKIP category like you did before, quite insulting really, I have my own mind and I'm quite capable of using it, I am not influenced in any way by any of those people you mentioned and I have no interest in what they have to say on this matter.
Going on your logic I can only assume that you share the views of Cameron and the rest of the Tory 'IN' crowd.

Out of interest, if it meant leaving a Labour government in power would you consider voting out?