All time league table of English league teams based on their end of season positions

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Out of interest, when a team finished bottom in Div 3(N) and Div3(S) did they get the same ranking and what was it?

I'd have made their regionalised total something like ((Final Position * 2) - 1) (so a team finishing 1st in Div 3(N) and Div 3(S) would get 1, a team who finished 2nd would get 3, and so on).

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That's what I have since done, I think I put that in a reply further up the thread. Originally I had given them both 45 for first, 46 for second etc (given there were always 44 teams in the 2 divisions above), but the two divisions were, in effect, what become divisions 3 and 4, so yes, the positions needed to reflect that.

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

Just checked back, and didn't once say, nor dismiss, Eric's table as "it doesn't work".

As I said in response to Eric's more measured reply, it is the outlliers that skew the data. I think I misread the table, if it shows average finishing positions in the League then that is what it does. I still think that teams who spent a period out of the FL have benefitted because, for a significant percentage of their history, they were outside the FL structure. Accrington Stanley, for example, have benefitted two-fold. Their average finish is 60, but they spent 50 years out of the FL. They also benefited, although Eric may confirm otherwise, from the fact that placing 22nd in Div 3(N) earned them better ranking scores than finishing 20th in Div 4. They also benefited from being in the "top flight" in the late 19th century.

Also, thinking more on the points totals, even averaging those would have the impact of teams who spent 70 years playing for 2 points for a win being disadvantaged over a club like Wimbledon who mostly only ever played for 3 points for a win. I know people argue that you just make it 3 points for a win for all history, but that is wrong too because there was a different mentality in the 70s and 80s with teams basing success on coming home with a 0-0.

I will have a stab at my "weighted table" and see what comes out in terms of an overall table although I am also coming around to the fact that this is likely to be inaccurate too.

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You said "There has to be an element of weighting for this table to work." - the implication being that it didn't as it stood.

Anyway, I accept that I'm taking this further than it needs to go, so you won't hear from me again on this especially as Eric seems happy enough about what you said.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Pretty much so. Here's a few others from a more selective timeframe.

1920-1931 (promotion, longest consecutive spell in the top flight): 16.5
1931-1946 (seasons in the third division): 58.6
1947-1962 (yo-yo between 1&2 tiers): 32.0
1962-1985 (nearly all 2nd division): 38.0
1985-2003 (the dark years): 70.0
2003-2020 (back in the 2nd tier and return to top flight): 27.1

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Interesting stuff. What you call the dark years surprised me a little because it struck me that we were much more a Fourth division than a Third division side during that time, so I wasn't expecting our average position over those eighteen years to be getting promoted from the basement.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Interesting stuff. What you call the dark years surprised me a little because it struck me that we were much more a Fourth division than a Third division side during that time, so I wasn't expecting our average position over those eighteen years to be getting promoted from the basement.

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No doubt swayed a bit by 4th and 6th place finishes in what is now League 1. Prior to that we had 6 seasons in that division. Our highest finish was 16th and we suffered 4 relegations, so we were either a basement side or soon to be one! We did manage a few promotions and a couple of other high finishes in the bottom division though.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

We were crap at the end of the eighties/star of noughties too. Weren’t we? Funny that the nineties were rubbish, I remember a fair few good seasons with Welsh Cup and European Cup games added on. I feel like the real crap was end of eighties going into the nineties, then there was something of an upturn.

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We took a couple of European beatings at the end of the 80's and beginning of the 90's, specifically against Aarhus from Denmark and Standard Liege. And we were also beaten by Admira Wacker of Austria. Not our greatest of European nights.

Hats off to Eric though for compiling such an interesting analysis. He's our very own Statto and doing a cracking job too.

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Originally Posted by Moodybluebird

We took a couple of European beatings at the end of the 80's and beginning of the 90's, specifically against Aarhus from Denmark and Standard Liege. And we were also beaten by Admira Wacker of Austria. Not our greatest of European nights.

Hats off to Eric though for compiling such an interesting analysis. He's our very own Statto and doing a cracking job too.

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Thanks for the kind comment!

Yes, we had 3 European campaigns from 1988 onwards. Apart from a routine and expected win over Derry City, Aarhus thrashed us 6-1 on aggregate, Admira Wacker won 3-1 and we conceded 8 to Standard Liege over 2 legs. Great away trips by all accounts but not particularly for the football! In fairness, a lower division side was hardly going to trouble any decent European teams.

Following the win over Real Madrid, we played a further 21 European Cup Winners' Cup matches, winning 3, drawing 6 and losing 12! We've a better record in the Algarve Cup, though! :hehe:

Between 1988 and 1995 we reached 5 Welsh Cup finals, winning 3 and losing the last 2, one of them infamously to Barry Town. We didn't always have the best of records against the Jacks, but when it came to the Welsh Cup, they could hardly beat us.