Immigration and The NHS

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's more than a thought - it's immoral. A poor country training doctors and nurses only be poached by the NHS is wrong. It shouldn't happen and is a failure of successive governments in training UK staff.

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The NHS has a quota for qualified personnel from each individual country, depending on how dependent each one is upon home-grown medical staff

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

The NHS has a quota for qualified personnel from each individual country, depending on how dependent each one is upon home-grown medical staff

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As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.


I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.

The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.

However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.

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Oh dear, here we are again. What the NHS Pay Review Body's remit involves is making recommendations that the government can choose to adhere to or ignore. It regularly does the latter.

Here's the 2020 Report Executive Summary: https://assets.publishing.service.go...Accessible.pdf

I'm not taking sides here but effectively the Tories could have said "bugger the recommendations, have a bonus" to thank medical staff for their frontline work during the pandemic. My understanding is there is/was noting legally to stop them doing so.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.


I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.

The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.

However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.

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I agree completely that a strategy designed to take staff from developing nations is morally bankrupt but, just to repeat he point I made above, you have to remember the staff themselves mostly want to move to countries that pay more. That is why the US is so attractive with salaries often in excess of $600k for some specialisms.

I thin the real problem here is a lack of supply of trained medical staff worldwide. I wonder the extent to which the UK government is aware of this supply-side problem in the UK but actually plans for foreign-trained medical staff in its personpower assessments.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.

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Thats incorrect

The government make recommendations to the pay body

The pay body make suggestions to the government

The government , Boris and his chancellor , then deciede

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Thats incorrect

The government make recommendations to the pay body

The pay body make suggestions to the government

The government , Boris and his chancellor , then deciede

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The Pay body makes recommendations to the government not the other way around but the final decision rests with the government which regularly ignores the results of the pay body. The only time I can recall the government accepting a pay body's recommendations is in relation to MPs pay.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The Pay body makes recommendations to the government not the other way around but the final decision rests with the government which regularly ignores the results of the pay body. The only time I can recall the government accepting a pay body's recommendations is in relation to MPs pay.

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you can only begin to imagine how shocked I am to hear this

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's more than a thought - it's immoral. A poor country training doctors and nurses only be poached by the NHS is wrong. It shouldn't happen and is a failure of successive governments in training UK staff.

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If you could move to another country and get paid more for doing the same job, would you?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.


I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.

The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.

However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.

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Instead of going through the whole process, couldn't they just have a video interview with each person before they sit their exam? A short conversation in English to weed out all the dodgy applicants. Wouldn't cost anything and would save on lessons..

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

If you could move to another country and get paid more for doing the same job, would you?

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Happens all the time with professionals going to the middle East for example

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Happens all the time with professionals going to the middle East for example

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Exactly. I don't see how it's immoral.

3 percent then!!!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

3 percent then!!!

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They know to have offered anything less wo

uld have been explosive

Although some people think they should be grateful of having a job and stop complaining

Which is ironic considering they possibly saved the lives of these people or their loved ones

That's how tories think

Vermin

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They know to have offered anything less wo

uld have been explosive

Although some people think they should be grateful of having a job and stop complaining

Which is ironic considering they possibly saved the lives of these people or their loved ones

That's how tories think

Vermin

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Steady on Major !

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They know to have offered anything less wo

uld have been explosive

Although some people think they should be grateful of having a job and stop complaining

Which is ironic considering they possibly saved the lives of these people or their loved ones

That's how tories think

Vermin

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Keeping on.

Christ.

Id love for them to get a fair wage, but when does less tax more wages for the people who want it etc come to a head?

****ing hell. They get a wage increase. Know a few young ladies working in the health system, none of which yet moan about pay.. Must come with age.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Instead of going through the whole process, couldn't they just have a video interview with each person before they sit their exam? A short conversation in English to weed out all the dodgy applicants. Wouldn't cost anything and would save on lessons..

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They do a second exam which is like an oral exam, so they ask questions about stuff like safeguarding, slang etc and have a practical element too

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

If you could move to another country and get paid more for doing the same job, would you?

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Yeah and not only that but there are other factors such as respect/safety from violent patients

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They know to have offered anything less wo

uld have been explosive

Although some people think they should be grateful of having a job and stop complaining

Which is ironic considering they possibly saved the lives of these people or their loved ones

That's how tories think

Vermin

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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-57915990

All NHS staff in Wales will be offered a 3% pay rise by the Welsh government.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Keeping on.

Christ.

Id love for them to get a fair wage, but when does less tax more wages for the people who want it etc come to a head?

****ing hell. They get a wage increase. Know a few young ladies working in the health system, none of which yet moan about pay.. Must come with age.

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Of course you do, I know that you know several nurses etc that work in the health system that would happily do it for free

I believe you

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-57915990

All NHS staff in Wales will be offered a 3% pay rise by the Welsh government.

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Thank christ for that or they would have been lynched too and rightly so

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To elaborate on earlier tweet about how the NHS pay rise of 3% for nurses and other staff is being funded, the money will come from the existing health settlement. But that settlement assumed a much lower pay rise, so there will now have to be a negotiation BEFORE the…

spending review, or outside of it, to ensure that the award to nurses and other staff doesn’t impair vital health provision in the aftermath of the COVID crisis. Pretty extraordinary the funding of the pay rise hasn’t yet been agreed by
@RishiSunak and @sajidjavid

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1417903900607356930

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It might have been offered but still needs to be further negotiated otherwise it will be a case of paying staff and cutting funding to health budget in general. Meanwhile,

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The vast majority of public workers - including teachers, police, prison officers, soldiers etc - are getting a pay freeze next year (which is a real terms pay cut).

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...06216479739908

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Of course you do, I know that you know several nurses etc that work in the health system that would happily do it for free

I believe you

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Weird post.

My cousins missus worked in A+E used to inevitably moan now and again about weekend warriors but never once complained about her pay. They both earn a good wage and live comfortably.

Chances are every single person posting on here knows a ****ing nurse, hardly anything to have to sarcastically believe is it.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Weird post.

My cousins missus worked in A+E used to inevitably moan now and again about weekend warriors but never once complained about her pay. They both earn a good wage and live comfortably.

Chances are every single person posting on here knows a ****ing nurse, hardly anything to have to sarcastically believe is it.

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Load of arse

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Load of arse

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Anything that doesn't fit your fairytale world is.

You've read that NHS staff struggle, so now in your little world every single one across the board is living on food stamps and family handouts. Load of arse.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Anything that doesn't fit your fairytale world is.

You've read that NHS staff struggle, so now in your little world every single one across the board is living on food stamps and family handouts. Load of arse.

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All the stories about nurses being totally fed up with the working conditions they face and the stress and the crap pay they get and them leaving the profession in droves must be made up then . Fairytale stuff .

If you think the NHS staff DONT struggle you seriously are a fecking twat