Jeremy Hunt

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

There's so much to unpack here, but one
point more evident than anything else is your diatribe is nothing more than a smokescreen designed to obfuscate the point being made.

People support parties for a variety of reasons. There's no right or wrong, as by and large it's based the individuals life experiences and expectations.

I suppose we can add delusional to your list of character traits

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In the old days the Tories had some one nation , old school moderates

Hague , Clarke , Major , Hurd

But those sort of Tories are long gone

Tories and tory voters are about themselves . They don't care about society and all this personal responsibility bollocks is a cover for
self self self

The Tories have completely crapped on those that voted for them in the north . I will be amazed if these people stick with them again . If they do then I won't have any sympathy for them whatsoever. The Tories look after their own . You can become one of them if you are successful but if you are poor or vulnerable you can feck off .

Why is it that people who work with the less fortunate almost always refuse to vote for them ?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

There's so much to unpack here, but one
point more evident than anything else is your diatribe is nothing more than a smokescreen designed to obfuscate the point being made.

People support parties for a variety of reasons. There's no right or wrong, as by and large it's based the individuals life experiences and expectations.

I suppose we can add delusional to your list of character traits

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Delusional lol!!! A bit pissed off because we fell for the propaganda are we? I have sympathy for you.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Delusional lol!!! A bit pissed off because we fell for the propaganda are we? I have sympathy for you.

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Lets be honest if we had a perfect country under the Tories you'd still hate or envy them and there supporters .

I know both Labour and Tory voters all working class all nice people however one can tell one side is more bitter and narrow of thought that the others .... the Tory voters mainly work in the private manual type work sector, the Labour lads are mainly in the public sector or ex public sector roles .

Lets see what Labour does in power with the world situations adversely effect markets that UK families are effected by , not just the UK 's decisions its the worlds that control matters ..

Tories will keep the triple lock so yer all okay

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Lets be honest if we had a perfect country under the Tories you'd still hate or envy them and there supporters .

I know both Labour and Tory voters all working class all nice people however one can tell one side is more bitter and narrow of thought that the others .... the Tory voters mainly work in the private manual type work sector, the Labour lads are mainly in the public sector or ex public sector roles .

Lets see what Labour does in power with the world situations adversely effect markets that UK families are effected by , not just the UK 's decisions its the worlds that control matters ..

Tories will keep the triple lock so yer all okay

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Let’s look at what labour did when they were in power last https://twitter.com/creativecamden/s...zLiwX5ehDITX7w

Surely even you with your one eye can see the shite state this country is in. Food banks everywhere, poverty everywhere, NHS and public services on their knees. The economy destroyed by an ideological mad woman. A winter of discontent, Jesus I could go on and on and on.

And please don’t come back with but labour but the war but the pandemic. This country was on its knees before all of these events happened.

Don’t be sick, don’t be poor and don’t lose your job.

General election now!

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Lets be honest if we had a perfect country under the Tories you'd still hate or envy them and there supporters .

I know both Labour and Tory voters all working class all nice people however one can tell one side is more bitter and narrow of thought that the others .... the Tory voters mainly work in the private manual type work sector, the Labour lads are mainly in the public sector or ex public sector roles .

Lets see what Labour does in power with the world situations adversely effect markets that UK families are effected by , not just the UK 's decisions its the worlds that control matters ..

Tories will keep the triple lock so yer all okay

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They have announced they won't according to James cleverly on radio 5 this morning

Who's in charge now?

Liz Truss commits to the pension triple lock 2 days after Hunt says they're not making any commitments on individual policies?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Lets be honest if we had a perfect country under the Tories you'd still hate or envy them and there supporters .

I know both Labour and Tory voters all working class all nice people however one can tell one side is more bitter and narrow of thought that the others .... the Tory voters mainly work in the private manual type work sector, the Labour lads are mainly in the public sector or ex public sector roles .

Lets see what Labour does in power with the world situations adversely effect markets that UK families are effected by , not just the UK 's decisions its the worlds that control matters ..

Tories will keep the triple lock so yer all okay

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'Let's be honest' would be a change.... but as usual that bit is missing.

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Originally Posted by ninian opinian

Let’s look at what labour did when they were in power last https://twitter.com/creativecamden/s...zLiwX5ehDITX7w

Surely even you with your one eye can see the shite state this country is in. Food banks everywhere, poverty everywhere, NHS and public services on their knees. The economy destroyed by an ideological mad woman. A winter of discontent, Jesus I could go on and on and on.

And please don’t come back with but labour but the war but the pandemic. This country was on its knees before all of these events happened.

Don’t be sick, don’t be poor and don’t lose your job.

General election now!

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When I read that list initially I thought it was someone being ironic. Call out a number and we'll have a look at the reality behind the headline.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Lets be honest if we had a perfect country under the Tories you'd still hate or envy them and there supporters .

I know both Labour and Tory voters all working class all nice people however one can tell one side is more bitter and narrow of thought that the others .... the Tory voters mainly work in the private manual type work sector, the Labour lads are mainly in the public sector or ex public sector roles .

Lets see what Labour does in power with the world situations adversely effect markets that UK families are effected by , not just the UK 's decisions its the worlds that control matters ..

Tories will keep the triple lock so yer all okay

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So when do you expect a perfect country under the Tories? Please let us know as soon as it's on its way.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They have announced they won't according to James cleverly on radio 5 this morning

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Truss just u turned on that yet again but I'm not sure she has the authority to make that decision. We await what her boss Jeremy has to say about it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

With the goal scored straight from the kick off when Truss turned the ball into her own net.

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They are all puppets, somebody else is pulling their strings.

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Originally Posted by superfeathers

Just observing in from the fence here. I'd say that conservative voters are brainwashed in that they sloganeer, they use the press very cleverly, they create enemies for the public and cause issues to distract, see immigrants as an example. The AGC was a really poor attempt, because it's caught on in a comedic rather than serious way. They brainwash the middle classes that they're the party for them, although it's actually only the richest in society who benefit.

There are so many voters in Wales and the North like your mum. In a way they've been brainwashed, but by the Conservatives. They've been brainwashed through experience that they can't trust them. Nothing good can come from them. It's the people who will call them Tory scum and so on. Those who got treated so badly and had industries destroyed and walked over many years ago, won't forgive or forget.

I'd vote labour because I've got too much of a social conscience to vote for this lot. I don't feel brainwashed, but I guess if I am, then I wouldn't know!

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Ah yes, the social conscience of the typical Labour voter.

Let's just be clear - no set of voters for any party is universally brainwashed. Some are more loyal than others, some have different reasons for voting how they do, some for ideological, personal, social reasons. And most will vote for a party for a different reason than someone else voters against them.

Language like brainwashing is the kind of stuff Sunni and Shias throw around at eachother in the middle east. It's simply not the case, and for every opinion or piece of flimsy evidence suggesting it, there is equal evidence on the other side.

Sometimes, we have to accept, we all have different opinions and it's as simple as that

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Let's just be clear - no set of voters for any party is universally brainwashed. Some are more loyal than others, some have different reasons for voting how they do, some for ideological, personal, social reasons. And most will vote for a party for a different reason than someone else voters against them.

Language like brainwashing is the kind of stuff Sunni and Shias throw around at eachother in the middle east. It's simply not the case, and for every opinion or piece of flimsy evidence suggesting it, there is equal evidence on the other side.

Sometimes, we have to accept, we all have different opinions and it's as simple as that

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I noted there were a lot of Manchurian Candidates in the last Tory intake.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Delusional lol!!! A bit pissed off because we fell for the propaganda are we? I have sympathy for you.

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Propaganda? less use of hyperbole wouldn't go amiss.

who are you again?

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

Propaganda? less use of hyperbole wouldn't go amiss.

who are you again?

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No I'm not Hyperborean; I thought he was one of your alter egos

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

No I'm not Hyperborean; I thought he was one of your alter egos

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I asked who you are? If you struggle to comprehend even the simplest of questions then perhaps the more nuanced politics threads are beyond you.

Maybe you could try the favourite crisps thread

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

I asked who you are? If you struggle to comprehend even the simplest of questions then perhaps the more nuanced politics threads are beyond you.

Maybe you could try the favourite crisps thread

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I understood your question very well thank you but who the hell are you to ask? Still smarting from swallowing the propaganda are we?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I understood your question very well thank you but who the hell are you to ask? Still smarting from swallowing the propaganda are we?

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If you understood my question you masked your comprehension very well. You're as bad as TOBW when he says he can't understand how anyone can vote Tory. The lack of empathy and appreciation that some have to those who may have a different world view than your own says more about you and them than anything else.

People vote for different parties for a variety of reasons. If you can't countenance that then you're not really capable of the independent thought that you think you are.

This is repetitive, so feel free to have the last word.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

If you understood my question you masked your comprehension very well. You're as bad as TOBW when he says he can't understand how anyone can vote Tory. The lack of empathy and appreciation that some have to those who may have a different world view than your own says more about you and them than anything else.

People vote for different parties for a variety of reasons. If you can't countenance that then you're not really capable of the independent thought that you think you are.

This is repetitive, so feel free to have the last word.

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In any democracy there are always people who won't vote for a certain party - the people who are currently still telling opinion polls that they will vote Tory are certain to include a fair proportion, probably a majority, who would never vote Labour.

I see the current Prime Minister appears to be going through one of her chameleon like changes of beliefs this week which is not a good look for someone in her position. For us mere mortals though, if a person lives the whole of their adult life believing in a certain set of principles, where's the problem? I'm proud never to have voted Conservative and, unless, something even more barmy than what we've seen over the last six years happens, I will go to my grave never having voted for them.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

In any democracy there are always people who won't vote for a certain party - the people who are currently still telling opinion polls that they will vote Tory are certain to include a fair proportion, probably a majority, who would never vote Labour.

I see the current Prime Minister appears to be going through one of her chameleon like changes of beliefs this week which is not a good look for someone in her position. For us mere mortals though, if a person lives the whole of their adult life believing in a certain set of principles, where's the problem? I'm proud never to have voted Conservative and, unless, something even more barmy than what we've seen over the last six years happens, I will go to my grave never having voted for them.

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I dont have an issue with anyone who has a set of principles and retains courage in their convictions. The issue I have is with those, such as yourself, who cannot understand how anyone can hold a differing viewpoint to your own.

Everyone you have ever known in your life has a slightly different version of Bob in their mind. Each version is created from their individual experiences of you in life.

People define their principles based on their own life experiences, and your own experiences are no more or less valid than anyone else's. This is how principles are formed.

The way I see it is the left are more for collective responsibility and the right for personal responsibility. Neither are right or wrong and both have their merits and drawbacks. Yet some on either side just cannot see that.

As for never voting for a party. That's a little shortsighted. Do you think the democratic party that enacted Jim Crow is the same party today, or do you think the Republican party of Lincoln is the same today? What about the Liberals who left the Irish to die in the potato famine, preferring Laissez Faire politics?

My point is parties change, and to steadfastly say you'll never support a party when that party may change over time i
Lacks an understanding on how party politics works.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

If you understood my question you masked your comprehension very well. You're as bad as TOBW when he says he can't understand how anyone can vote Tory. The lack of empathy and appreciation that some have to those who may have a different world view than your own says more about you and them than anything else.

People vote for different parties for a variety of reasons. If you can't countenance that then you're not really capable of the independent thought that you think you are.

This is repetitive, so feel free to have the last word.

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You're right you are repetitive.

Ok I'll have the last word...

Tory Armageddon

Sorry, that's two.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

I dont have an issue with anyone who has a set of principles and retains courage in their convictions. The issue I have is with those, such as yourself, who cannot understand how anyone can hold a differing viewpoint to your own.

Everyone you have ever known in your life has a slightly different version of Bob in their mind. Each version is created from their individual experiences of you in life.

People define their principles based on their own life experiences, and your own experiences are no more or less valid than anyone else's. This is how principles are formed.

The way I see it is the left are more for collective responsibility and the right for personal responsibility. Neither are right or wrong and both have their merits and drawbacks. Yet some on either side just cannot see that.

As for never voting for a party. That's a little shortsighted. Do you think the democratic party that enacted Jim Crow is the same party today, or do you think the Republican party of Lincoln is the same today? What about the Liberals who left the Irish to die in the potato famine, preferring Laissez Faire politics?

My point is parties change, and to steadfastly say you'll never support a party when that party may change over time i
Lacks an understanding on how party politics works.

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I don't wish us to carry on abusing each other in this thread so I just want to question some of your assumptions in a friendly way.

The Tories are about an awful lot more than personal responsibility and much of what they stand against I would steadfastly say is wrong by any definition of ethics.

There's no space nor time here to do any justice to the subject but I'll just pick up on personal responsibility briefly because you raised it.

Surely personal responsibility is fine if you have the luxury of possessing the wherewithal and means to maintain yourself independently. It's a very laudable ideology for the rich to keep to themselves. However the poor, through no fault of their own, need the support and generosity of all because they are denied the means to look after themselves sufficiently. Personally I believe that to promote the small state agenda denies social responsibility and that is evil. The philosophy of I'm allright Jack, bu**er you is selfish, greedy and evil. You may disagree of course.

Your point about parties being subject to change his true to a point but of course if they lose their core, defining beliefs they become different parties. I'm not aware of the Tories ever having altered their core beliefs of aspiration, small state, personal responsibility, wealth hegemony and allegiance to the crown. For all those very reasons I could never vote for them.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I don't wish us to carry on abusing each other in this thread so I just want to question some of your assumptions in a friendly way.

The Tories are about an awful lot more than personal responsibility and much of what they stand against I would steadfastly say is wrong by any definition of ethics.

There's no space nor time here to do any justice to the subject but I'll just pick up on personal responsibility briefly because you raised it.

Surely personal responsibility is fine if you have the luxury of possessing the wherewithal and means to maintain yourself independently. It's a very laudable ideology for the rich to keep to themselves. However the poor, through no fault of their own, need the support and generosity of all because they are denied the means to look after themselves sufficiently. Personally I believe that to promote the small state agenda denies social responsibility and that is evil. The philosophy of I'm allright Jack, bu**er you is selfish, greedy and evil. You may disagree of course.

Your point about parties being subject to change his true to a point but of course if they lose their core, defining beliefs they become different parties. I'm not aware of the Tories ever having altered their core beliefs of aspiration, small state, personal responsibility, wealth hegemony and allegiance to the crown. For all those very reasons I could never vote for them.

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If this was true, I would entirely agree with you, but I don't think it is. I think you present a characature of the party. Wasn't it the Tory party who just spent extraordinary sums on furlough, on reducing fuel prices, on U/C uplifts during Covid. Have they not raised the minimum wage by more than Labour, did they not raise NHS spending by record amounts etc?

The answer to the above is that they did. Our expectations of what a succesful society are are probably very similar. I voted Tory in the last election (and in 2017, for the first time) largely because of the importance of honouring the referendum from 2016, but also because I thought they were more likely to do many of the things you suggested, in an economically more sustainable way. Post Boris, I can't say I think that, but there was no inherent promotion of greed or an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude about May, Johnson or even Cameron.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

If this was true, I would entirely agree with you, but I don't think it is. I think you present a characature of the party. Wasn't it the Tory party who just spent extraordinary sums on furlough, on reducing fuel prices, on U/C uplifts during Covid. Have they not raised the minimum wage by more than Labour, did they not raise NHS spending by record amounts etc?

The answer to the above is that they did. Our expectations of what a succesful society are are probably very similar. I voted Tory in the last election (and in 2017, for the first time) largely because of the importance of honouring the referendum from 2016, but also because I thought they were more likely to do many of the things you suggested, in an economically more sustainable way. Post Boris, I can't say I think that, but there was no inherent promotion of greed or an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude about May, Johnson or even Cameron.

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James I could have bet my house on you disagreeing with me.

There was definitely the inherent promotion big greed throughout every Tory administration. It's their raison d'etre. Johnson is the epitome of greed. Not even his £250k plus MP and ministerial salary is enough for him. He's said so openly.

The furlough argument is irrelevant I'm afraid. Every administration of every hue would have done the same in the circumstances otherwise the economy would have been irrecoverable.

By the way are you a transport planner? If so could you do something about the appalling infrastructure we have in Caerphilly?