PM blames the west for "provoking" Russia's attack on Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Saying Putin is a shrewd political operator is not the same as being a fan.

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

Farage is becoming increasingly Trumpian right down to the very thin skin he has.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

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So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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The people I admire are not politicians. Please don't jump to the same conclusions as SF!

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are coming over as a bit of an admirer of farage

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Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It’s there in the eleventh para of the linked BBC piece.

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Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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So many people say Farage is a shrewd politician, so I suppose he must be, but I can remember him saying that a 52/48 defeat for Leave would be small enough to convince him to keep on campaigning for Brexit - that’s something that I suspect will be used against him when the Remain side start pushing for closer ties with the EU as they inevitably will eventually. Talking of the Referendum, he wasn’t too shrewd when he came on TV as the polls were closing back in June 2016 to say he thought Remain had won. I have heard it said mind that he said that to try to get the odds on Leave to lengthen so he could make himself some money - interesting given a story doing the rounds at present.

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make with your second question, as far as Putin is concerned he would say that wouldn’t he and all Farage is doing is parroting Putin’s line - Farage is a modern day Neville Chamberlain type appeaser which is ironic given that he is one of those men of a certain age who talk almost lovingly about the Second World War as they try to convince themselves that they actually fought in it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So many people say Farage is a shrewd politician, so I suppose he must be, but I can remember him saying that a 52/48 defeat for Leave would be small enough to convince him to keep on campaigning for Brexit - that’s something that I suspect will be used against him when the Remain side start pushing for closer ties with the EU as they inevitably will eventually. Talking of the Referendum, he wasn’t too shrewd when he came on TV as the polls were closing back in June 2016 to say he thought Remain had won. I have heard it said mind that he said that to try to get the odds on Leave to lengthen so he could make himself some money - interesting given a story doing the rounds at present.

I didn't say Farage was a shrewd politician, I said Putin is a shrewd politician. Do you agree?

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make with your second question, as far as Putin is concerned he would say that wouldn’t he and all Farage is doing is parroting Putin’s line - Farage is a modern day Neville Chamberlain type appeaser which is ironic given that he is one of those men of a certain age who talk almost lovingly about the Second World War as they try to convince themselves that they actually fought in it.

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It's immaterial that "he would say that wouldn't he" of course he would! The fact is he said it, so you must agree that he used the NATO threat to justify the war in Ukraine to his fellow countrymen.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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The ITV news link I provided above stated (from his interview) that Farage regarded Putin as 'the world leader he most admires'.

I suppose I'm just an idiot to reduce that to 'Putin fan'. Oh well....

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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I missed your questions before.

Yes, I agree Putin is probably a 'shrewd politician' - but shrewd in the service of maintaining his power and prestige, not in improving the lives of ordinary Russians. He uses Great Russian nationalism and the wealth and influence of his cronies to stay in power (for now).

The 'NATO threat' was part of his justification for the invasion of Ukraine. There were other justifications too - around the status of Ukraine as an independent nation, around the events leading up to 2014 in the Donbas, and around the nature of the regime in Kyiv.

Not sure what the significance of the two questions is though. The question that started this is what Farage thinks about Putin - not what Putin has told Russians about the reasons for war in Ukraine or whether he is clever or not.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So what if he admires somebody? Most people on here admire something or somebody enough to vote for them.

PS I don't admire anybody or anything cos they are all ***** :-)

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Farage is a complete idiot

He may be very clever but the inflammatory language he uses regarding immigration means he is to be vilified not admired

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Why do the two questions I pose (which I notice jon1959 hasn't answered as yet) lead you to conclude I am an admirer of Farage? But then I suppose you have history in this regard - you conclude that all Tory supporters are bad and all Labour supporters are wonderful without knowing a thing about the people!

How about answering my two questions then. I'll repeat them for your convenience:

Do you not think Putin is a shrewd politician?

Do you disagree that he has used the NATO "threat" to justify the war in Ukraine by convincing the Russian people that "they are coming to get us"?

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Well you are on the right of politics as you are a tory

I don't care if putin is shrewd

Or farage

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Anyone who knows the history how Putin came to power knows what a shrewd politician he must have been in that environment. Only an idiot would conflate your comment with being a 'fan'.

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Can you point me in the direction of where I said Mr Gofer was a fan of Mr Putin ?

Old fruit

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

It's immaterial that "he would say that wouldn't he" of course he would! The fact is he said it, so you must agree that he used the NATO threat to justify the war in Ukraine to his fellow countrymen.

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Sorry, I misread your message, I’d answer your first question by saying Putin has a measure of low cunning.

As for your second question, I repeat that he would say that wouldn’t he and, to repeat what I said earlier in the thread, Wales and Scotland could prepare for invasion if they were pushing too hard for independence if Putin was Prime Minister of the UK - the attempted invasion of Ukraine was not the action of a politically shrewd man.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well you are on the right of politics as you are a tory

I don't care if putin is shrewd

Or farage

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I can understand that you won't answer the two questions because to do so would mean you would have to agree with me and me being a supposed Tory would be anathema to you of course. Hence your usual deflection technique - have you ever considered becoming a politician yourself?

I think I have written before that I don't see myself fitting neatly into any particular political persuasion. At election times I tend to vote for the person who I believe has the best interest of the local constituency at heart and as I have lived in different places over the last 50+ years I have voted for candidates of different political persuasions. Since moving to Pembrokeshire I have voted for the standing M.P. Stephen Crabb who happens to be a Tory and will do so this time too. I have written to him many times on different subjects, some local, some national/international and he always responds. He doesn't always agree with me, for example on the matter of assisted dying or campaigning for a Kinder-transport type scheme for orphaned Palestinian children. On the other hand he was very supportive when I set up a local community sponsorship group to bring a Syrian refugee family to Pembs.

The Labour candidate here is one Henry Tufnell and is one of the “parachute brigade”. Having tried to stand in Colchester he was rejected there, so I would question why Pembs then? He claims to have a strong connection to Pembs because, wait for it, his mother has a holiday home here!!! I would imagine such a claim will go down like a lead balloon in these parts and I could not possibly vote for this guy if that is his only connection with the county.

For more detail see:

https://nation.cymru/news/concerns-r...eral-election/

A quote from the above link:

“Henry Tufnell has only been on the scene for a short period of time, has no local connection apart from the fact that his mother Rosina Jane Tufnell, who in 2021 was the High Sheriff of Gloucestershire, owns a second home in the constituency, and comes from a family that has a big landed estate in Gloucestershire with a manor house and a number of farms and houses on it. It certainly seems an unlikely background for a would-be Labour MP.

In fact Mr Tufnell’s father Mark Tufnell is the current President of the Country Land and Business Association – until recently known as the Country Landowners’ Association – which represents the wealthiest of farmers and members of the landed gentry.
Mark Tufnell owns Calmsden Farms, a 2,000-acre estate in the Cotswolds, one of the most expensive agricultural areas in England.
Henry Tufnell qualified as a barrister in September 2020 and joined chambers in London.
He no longer practises as a barrister.”

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Sorry, I misread your message, I’d answer your first question by saying Putin has a measure of low cunning.

As for your second question, I repeat that he would say that wouldn’t he and, to repeat what I said earlier in the thread, Wales and Scotland could prepare for invasion if they were pushing too hard for independence if Putin was Prime Minister of the UK - the attempted invasion of Ukraine was not the action of a politically shrewd man.

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OK, thanks for your reply. I believe when Putin launched his war on Ukraine he genuinely expected a walk-over, with Ukraine capitulating within a few days. The shrewd bit was drumming up the support of the Russian people by focussing on the expansion of NATO as the main factor. I agree he also used other issues such as the "liberation" of pro-Russian people in eastern Ukraine. He is still using these excuses to continue the war despite huge losses of soldiers and military equipment.

.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I missed your questions before.

Yes, I agree Putin is probably a 'shrewd politician' - but shrewd in the service of maintaining his power and prestige, not in improving the lives of ordinary Russians. He uses Great Russian nationalism and the wealth and influence of his cronies to stay in power (for now). I agree.

The 'NATO threat' was part of his justification for the invasion of Ukraine. There were other justifications too - around the status of Ukraine as an independent nation, around the events leading up to 2014 in the Donbas, and around the nature of the regime in Kyiv.
I agree there were other factors but I think the NATO thing i.e. "the West is ganging up on us folks" was the main one.

Not sure what the significance of the two questions is though. The question that started this is what Farage thinks about Putin - not what Putin has told Russians about the reasons for war in Ukraine or whether he is clever or not.

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I disagree on the last point (don't know why my response has appeared outside the quote box?) Farage admires Putin for those very reasons i.e. he is a shrewd political animal.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I can understand that you won't answer the two questions because to do so would mean you would have to agree with me and me being a supposed Tory would be anathema to you of course. Hence your usual deflection technique - have you ever considered becoming a politician yourself?

I think I have written before that I don't see myself fitting neatly into any particular political persuasion. At election times I tend to vote for the person who I believe has the best interest of the local constituency at heart and as I have lived in different places over the last 50+ years I have voted for candidates of different political persuasions. Since moving to Pembrokeshire I have voted for the standing M.P. Stephen Crabb who happens to be a Tory and will do so this time too. I have written to him many times on different subjects, some local, some national/international and he always responds. He doesn't always agree with me, for example on the matter of assisted dying or campaigning for a Kinder-transport type scheme for orphaned Palestinian children. On the other hand he was very supportive when I set up a local community sponsorship group to bring a Syrian refugee family to Pembs.

The Labour candidate here is one Henry Tufnell and is one of the “parachute brigade”. Having tried to stand in Colchester he was rejected there, so I would question why Pembs then? He claims to have a strong connection to Pembs because, wait for it, his mother has a holiday home here!!! I would imagine such a claim will go down like a lead balloon in these parts and I could not possibly vote for this guy if that is his only connection with the county.

For more detail see:

https://nation.cymru/news/concerns-r...eral-election/

A quote from the above link:

“Henry Tufnell has only been on the scene for a short period of time, has no local connection apart from the fact that his mother Rosina Jane Tufnell, who in 2021 was the High Sheriff of Gloucestershire, owns a second home in the constituency, and comes from a family that has a big landed estate in Gloucestershire with a manor house and a number of farms and houses on it. It certainly seems an unlikely background for a would-be Labour MP.

In fact Mr Tufnell’s father Mark Tufnell is the current President of the Country Land and Business Association – until recently known as the Country Landowners’ Association – which represents the wealthiest of farmers and members of the landed gentry.
Mark Tufnell owns Calmsden Farms, a 2,000-acre estate in the Cotswolds, one of the most expensive agricultural areas in England.
Henry Tufnell qualified as a barrister in September 2020 and joined chambers in London.
He no longer practises as a barrister.”

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I havnt even read as far as your two questions , I deciede what questions I answer

As for your voting for whoever is the best local choice I am certain that in almost every case that's been a conservative

Let's not pretend 😂

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Provoked is absolutely the wrong word and only one person is to blame - Putin. There is essentially zero moral justification for his war. The only remotely just part of his argument (that ethnic Russians were being abused in eastern Ukraine) is very flimsy and not justification for what he's done. So, it is all on Putin.

But. In the land of Realpolitik, there are still reasons for things happening. Just like Germany starting WW2 is entirely unjustified, it doesn't mean we ignore the treaty of Versailles which many Germans cite as a reason for grievance. Likewise, many on here have correctly argued that the Israel/Palestine situation did not start on October 7th.

So Farages wording was wrong, but in explaining what happened and why he is essentially right. Putin is a maniacal paranoid tyrant but he likely did feel threatened.

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Agreed he shouldn't have said it in that way, but everyone knows why it escalated, he said in advance what would happen.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Agreed he shouldn't have said it in that way, but everyone knows why it escalated, he said in advance what would happen.

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Yeah, his mistake was to use the word "provoke". The rest is fundamentally true really. There are reasons bad things happen. It doesn't justify things but it does explain them.

Its no use pretending we are all 9 years old and watching newsround on the school carpet and just labelling Putin a baddie (which he also is btw). There is nothing wrong with talking about these things but yes, language does matter.

I don't see the problem with what he said.

Putin/Russia felt they had to act, in similar ways to how the uk and us have acted aggressively in the past, the fairly recent past even.

I remember seeing Putin talk bout his concerns for NATO expansion years ago. They have largely been ignored and brushed off. I can guarantee a peaceful Russian federation expansion to the west wouldn't have got anywhere near our nearest neighbours before aggression.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest they were provoked by the west and that Russia's invasion of a democratic country is equally as appalling, both can be true.

Ultimately Ukraine is being used by the US and the global elites, some great profits to be made.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I havnt even read as far as your two questions , I deciede what questions I answer

As for your voting for whoever is the best local choice I am certain that in almost every case that's been a conservative

Let's not pretend 😂

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You really should consider becoming a politician!

Hopeless wrong with your last sentence I'm afraid. I have voted Liberal (before they became Liberal Democrats) back in my Essex days, Plaid Cymru (a protest vote), Labour (Paul Murphy, Pontypool) and Conservative (Stephen Crabb, Pembs). In each case my decision was based on my assessment of the integrity of the candidate (as far as possible) and his/her record on local issues and voting patterns in Parliament (where applicable). Of course no individual M.P. has ever been in complete alignment with my own views which is inevitable in a democracy.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

You really should consider becoming a politician!

Hopeless wrong with your last sentence I'm afraid. I have voted Liberal (before they became Liberal Democrats) back in my Essex days, Plaid Cymru (a protest vote), Labour (Paul Murphy, Pontypool) and Conservative (Stephen Crabb, Pembs). In each case my decision was based on my assessment of the integrity of the candidate (as far as possible) and his/her record on local issues and voting patterns in Parliament (where applicable). Of course no individual M.P. has ever been in complete alignment with my own views which is inevitable in a democracy.

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Not sure I believe that

Stephen Crabb wouldn't be one to look for regarding integrity