I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.

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I agree with you on the Brexit policy, it was a mess. The party was totally cornered by Brexit with the majority being remainers but a hardcore of hard left members supporting a ridiculous and fanciful "Lexit." IMHO this last group included Corbyn, who I believe was disingenuous in his support of remain. As you have alluded to, Corbyn had no control over the party and any party lacking strong leadership is doomed to fail.

Yes, Corbyn was treated appallingly by most of the media but he did bring a lot on to himself with documented comments and associations. Often clipped and exaggerated but that's what happens to Labour leaders. His recent comments about Ukraine shows clearly that he was never fit to lead the Labour Party or be PM. WTF is he doing speaking to a Lebanon TV station with links to Iran and the Assad regime in Syria?

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Originally Posted by Doucas

I'm sorry but if nobody can tell me how he's different from the tories, or how the specifics about how he will help workers or the vulnerable I simply can't vote for him. To me he is a tory.

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I'm still waiting for this, I'd genuinely love to be wrong so please educate me!

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Originally Posted by Doucas

I'm still waiting for this, I'd genuinely love to be wrong so please educate me!

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I'll give it a shot. You're right he is no different from a Tory and the fact he hasn't ditched the silly handle "Sir" really grates with me. He would fit in to any moderately centre left Tory administration.

However, the overriding objective for the good of the vast majority of the country is to get rid of the present fascist government. Starmer's only job is to make Labour electable again and as we found with Blair and Brown the only possible way to do that is to tack to Tory lite.

Starmer isnt doing a bad job of things if you consider the polls are showing lukewarm support for Labour, largely due to the disaster the present administration has shown itself to be. Starmer doesn't have to be spectacular to improve Labours election chances. He just needs to distance himself from Corbyn as far as possible. I personally detest it but I would settle for anything but the Tories at the moment and then try to get the Left Wing doctrine across when we have a foothold in power.

Despite Starmer's many weaknesses any change of leadership campaign now might set our ambitions back much further. There will be a more opportune time for that in the future.

Hasta la victoria sempre!

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I'll give it a shot. You're right he is no different from a Tory and the fact he hasn't ditched the silly handle "Sir" really grates with me. He would fit in to any moderately centre left Tory administration.

However, the overriding objective for the good of the vast majority of the country is to get rid of the present fascist government. Starmer's only job is to make Labour electable again and as we found with Blair and Brown the only possible way to do that is to tack to Tory lite.

Starmer isnt doing a bad job of things if you consider the polls are showing lukewarm support for Labour, largely due to the disaster the present administration has shown itself to be. Starmer doesn't have to be spectacular to improve Labours election chances. He just needs to distance himself from Corbyn as far as possible. I personally detest it but I would settle for anything but the Tories at the moment and then try to get the Left Wing doctrine across when we have a foothold in power.

Despite Starmer's many weaknesses any change of leadership campaign now might set our ambitions back much further. There will be a more opportune time for that in the future.

Hasta la victoria sempre!

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Thanks, but what does he stand for and how would he help workers and the vulnerable?

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

It actually saddens me to read this Jon.

Again I've no desire to fall out with you but to accuse Starmer of being "an apologist and enabler of racists" whilst ignoring the behaviour of Corbyn and his acolytes is quite shocking.

I don't believe Starmer is incompetent, although the next GE will decide that.

As for being a liar - I assume because of the 10 pledges nonsense - we all need to accept that the world has moved on and that the priorities of 2020 may not be the same as now. None of us know how many of these pledges will be in the next manifesto - who knows, you maybe pleasantly surprised.

On the other hand maybe try some pragmatism and accept you wont get everything you want from any political party.

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What turned me away for Labour was this idea that what they say is the only way , withing its ranks there is some serious nastiness ,now that exists in every party its however when a party runs on a ticket of equality , inclusiveness , not for the few but the many , no bullying , no harassment , female opportunities in the top job, not racist etc etc its best they are that ????????????..

I don't won't to fall out with anyone but being pragmatic and balanced is a wonderful skill and being able to say how one feels without being called some pathetic name or a Tory , Right wing , Gammon face, and other slurs , I do note as well that the Tories are not so insulting of others in such a direct or insulting way , or carrying placards that on occasions are very offensive and of a violent nature ..

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Originally Posted by life on mars

What turned me away for Labour was this idea that what they say is the only way , withing its ranks there is some serious nastiness ,now that exists in every party its however when a party runs on a ticket of equality , inclusiveness , not for the few but the many , no bullying , no harassment , female opportunities in the top job, not racist etc etc its best they are that ????????????..

I don't won't to fall out with anyone but being pragmatic and balanced is a wonderful skill and being able to say how one feels without being called some pathetic name or a Tory , Right wing , Gammon face, and other slurs , I do note as well that the Tories are not so insulting of others in such a direct or insulting way , or carrying placards that on occasions are very offensive and of a violent nature ..

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Totally agree on this. Even on this thread, the themes and buzzwords are always hatred, fascism, scum, toxicity. Quite frankly it's not pleasant, and it's off putting. Literally the only 'hatred' I ever see on Facebook is from a small minority of my left wing friends aimed toward anyone with a different opinion. There are worse hatreds out there of course, but very few so brazenly displayed. On CCMB, it's largely the same.

I generally am pretty mixed on both main parties policies. There are good and bad with them both and 90% of the policies are the same in practice. The tone associated with Labour hasn't been nice in recent years though.

I particularly found the way a drunken Angela Rayner casually labelled people scum and was cheered by an equally drunken boozy crowd particularly grim.

Although that particular incident happened on his watch, thats why I think Starmer is a bit of a breath of fresh air, in that he is fundementally a polite, decent, honourable bloke.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

Thanks, but what does he stand for and how would he help workers and the vulnerable?

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Yes concede on that one: I'm not sure he stands for anything really although I found his views on Brexit refreshing.

I doubt he would help any vulnerable and/or impoverished group apart from helping to hasten the demise of this current abomination. Totally agree he's no Socialist so he wouldn't get my endorsement otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Yes concede on that one: I'm not sure he stands for anything really although I found his views on Brexit refreshing.

I doubt he would help any vulnerable and/or impoverished group apart from helping to hasten the demise of this current abomination. Totally agree he's no Socialist so he wouldn't get my endorsement otherwise.

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Thanks for trying but this is why I can't vote for him, I don't know what he stands for, he's basically a tory and he's a proven liar. As far as I can tell nothing will change.

A revolutionary policy by Starmer here.

Getting rid of pre-payment premiums which amounts to a poultry £43 a year. That's the best he has.

This country is utterly ****ed.

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/sta...pxPyucpSA&s=19

https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/st...34558393761792

The Labour leadership is hamstrung by its own rigid and incoherent ideology, based on two nonsensical dogmas:

1. If Jeremy Corbyn said it, we can’t say it.

2. We have to ‘balance the books’.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/st...34558393761792

The Labour leadership is hamstrung by its own rigid and incoherent ideology, based on two nonsensical dogmas:

1. If Jeremy Corbyn said it, we can’t say it.

2. We have to ‘balance the books’.

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Blimey Jon, you'll be quoting Owen Jones, Seamus Milne and Aaron Bastani next :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Blimey Jon, you'll be quoting Owen Jones, Seamus Milne and Aaron Bastani next :hehe:

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I probably will. My weakness is that I agree with them a lot of the time. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I probably will. My weakness is that I agree with them a lot of the time. :hehe:

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I used to like OJ but latterly I do feel he's gone a bit crazy and I see him as just a grifter these days, hungry for clicks and likes.

The other two are all yours. One of Corbyns many failings was having a very poor group of advisors around him.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

I used to like OJ but latterly I do feel he's gone a bit crazy and I see him as just a grifter these days, hungry for clicks and likes.

The other two are all yours. One of Corbyns many failings was having a very poor group of advisors around him.

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A massive faiiling was his Brexit policy. Here was a wonderful man, adulated by the young, not championing the single most important issue of their lifetimes. Many looked upon him as a beacon of hope in distressing times but he failed to support them.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

A massive faiiling was his Brexit policy. Here was a wonderful man, adulated by the young, not championing the single most important issue of their lifetimes. Many looked upon him as a beacon of hope in distressing times but he failed to support them.

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I thought Brexit policy under Corbyn was clear cut - the electorate decided on Brexit and therefore the electorate can choose the form of Brexit they want.

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Originally Posted by DryCleaning

I thought Brexit policy under Corbyn was clear cut - the electorate decided on Brexit and therefore the electorate can choose the form of Brexit they want.

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It was clear, you are correct. The ambiguity was a projection from Brexiteers onto Remainers, in essence 'come on then, tell us how we do it without wrecking everything?!', if they didn't, they were anti-British.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

It was clear, you are correct. The ambiguity was a projection from Brexiteers onto Remainers, in essence 'come on then, tell us how we do it without wrecking everything?!', if they didn't, they were anti-British.

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I don't recollect that. Nothing wrong whatsoever with people who voted Remain being involved in the formulation of ideas into the implementation of Brexit.

The issue always was with people who refused to accept the referendum result. It was a shameful position to take and a stupid one, because ultimately, from their perspective they made it worse, refusing to support May's Brexit and creating the conditions for Boris's

Phew Sir Kier is back from his holiday to save the nation , Gordon Brown is stepping back ..

Do you ever notice Tories can't have holidays, but folk like Sir Kier escape the media frenzy ??

And we think it's a right wing lead media 😆

[QUOTE=JamesWales;5332471]I don't recollect that. Nothing wrong whatsoever with people who voted Remain being involved in the formulation of ideas into the implementation of Brexit.

The issue always was with people who refused to accept the referendum result. It was a shameful position to take and a stupid one, because ultimately, from their perspective they made it worse, refusing to support May's Brexit and creating the conditions for Boris's[/QUOTE7]

72.2% of electorate voted to leave including millions of Labour voters .

Sir Kier votes many times to overturn that vote ??

Labour Party though support strikes that have woeful % of voters causing untold pain for poor folk needing transport, delivery of critical items of mail teaching , health ...

If I was Sir Kier I'd say yes to inflation boosting rises , however when inflation drops as does your wage

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Phew Sir Kier is back from his holiday to save the nation , Gordon Brown is stepping back ..

Do you ever notice Tories can't have holidays, but folk like Sir Kier escape the media frenzy ??

And we think it's a right wing lead media ��

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Kier isn't in charge of the government? I'm not a fan of him but surely you can see the glaring difference.

Is Robert Murchdoch not right wing then? How about the Rothermere family that supported the nazis in the past? Did the BBC not put a Russian hat on Corbyn and put the kremlin behind him despite the fact it was the tories who were taking Russian money?

It's a fact the majority of the media is right wing, but I guess you guys love crying about how you're the victims and called scum because of your horrific policies.

Source: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...uks-newspapers

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Originally Posted by life on mars

72.2% of electorate voted to leave including millions of Labour voters .

Sir Kier votes many times to overturn that vote ??

Labour Party though support strikes that have woeful % of voters causing untold pain for poor folk needing transport, delivery of critical items of mail teaching , health ...

If I was Sir Kier I'd say yes to inflation boosting rises , however when inflation drops as does your wage

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Literally making it up.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't recollect that. Nothing wrong whatsoever with people who voted Remain being involved in the formulation of ideas into the implementation of Brexit.

The issue always was with people who refused to accept the referendum result. It was a shameful position to take and a stupid one, because ultimately, from their perspective they made it worse, refusing to support May's Brexit and creating the conditions for Boris's

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Groan. This bollocks again.

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Originally Posted by Swiss Peter

Groan. This bollocks again.

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Why is that bollocks?

If Starmer gets in he'll be watched like a hawk by the right wing press, the labour voters expecting more and half his own party waiting for him to slip. The Tories get more leeway from the electorate so if he's as unproductive as them he'll be out after one term and back in the doldrums. Given this - and perhaps this is a skewed logic borne out of hopefulness - a Starmer administration might actually get stuff done given the chance.

I can understand his reticence because he'll be lambasted by the usual Tory election policy of "They'll be dressing your kids in donkey jackets next" which is enough for some people to vote for the more of the same.

I'm 52 and can't remember Wilson in 74 so the only Labour leader, to my memory, who's won an election is a centrist, and he went and got the backing of Murdoch, an option I don't think is open to Starmer. In 97 people were completely bored of the Tories and wanted change. Now they change every five minutes in order to look like it's all refreshed. We can't assume it won't work again.

That article in the link, by the way, was embittered, ad hominem bollocks.