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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
North Cardiff Blue
No it's paid for by the current tax payers, they've had back what they paid in already if they leave then it stops.
Excellent. Then we should be telling pensioners that their contributions don't matter as everything they receive is paid for by current tax payers.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tforturton
This is a strange situation. A large majority of the population have rePEATEDLY voted in the SNP, who have gone on to make an absolute pigs ear of governing Scotland. Health, Education, transport - it's all a complete shambles, and all running at a huge deficit. It is only the UK Government that is bailing them out. So what happens if they go independent, and EVERYTHING has to come through England to get there? There's enough problems with Northern Ireland, without adding to the mix. But all this banging on the independence drum tends to hide the debacle they have made of managing Scotland. And if we're honest, things are very similar here in Wales.
As much as we like the idea of independence, neither Scotland nor Wales could afford to maintain their current living standards, and people would start to leave. Let's be fair - they already do. Now imagine it much worse. Close to 50% of Welsh jobs are state funded - what happens to those? And who pays for them?
Have you heard of something called the EU?
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
For all the infantile name calling in the original post, Sturgeon is probably the most effective and successful politician in the UK. It is certainly ironic that the Leader of the Party North Cardiff Blue seems to hold most dear is her most effective recruitment Sergeant.
On the once in a generation point, there is a legitimate challenge that the Brexit vote of a pro-EU Scotland changed the dynamic. That said, the things that made it fail in the first place have not gone away. I also think the Brexit situation will make it fall on its face. A customs and people border with England, really?
The EU has probably had enough of the UK and would rather get on with its own challenges without opening up something with a fledgling state. My guess is that Moldova and Albania would be quicker to the pass than Scotland.
A pleasure to agree with you Cyril!
I am no fan of the SNP; they talk absolute bollocks about Westminster - their tone towards it is far worse than even UKIPs was toward the EU and they have a remarkable range of powers to fix problems they blame on someone else.
But...she's a fine politician, partly to fool enough people about the reality of the above situation.
That said, I get the arguments for Scotland leaving and some stack up, emotionally if thats your identity etc. I firmly hope they stay though, and I think they will when the reality of campaigning kicks in
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
“Once in a generation” they said, then when the answer was No, they started another campaign up and said " we need another vote when we can "
so the SNP campaign for independence and when the public vote no, they want another vote
Might aswell have on the ballot paper 4 options
YES
YES
NO, but we will continue voting till its YES
YES
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
“Once in a generation” they said, then when the answer was No, they started another campaign up and said " we need another vote when we can "
so the SNP campaign for independence and when the public vote no, they want another vote
Might aswell have on the ballot paper 4 options
YES
YES
NO, but we will continue voting till its YES
YES
What exactly is the problem with regularly holding a referendum on something so fundamental? So long as there is a threshold to prevent a Brexit style fag paper thin win, I actually think it is a pretty good way of resolving the situation.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
“Once in a generation” is just a catchphrase though, there’s no binding agreement that means Scotland needs to wait 20 years between votes. If the result next year is Independence then surely it was the right time to hold a vote as enough time had past that a considerable portion of the population had changed their mind and wanted change.
As for a vote on the Senedd, there was an Abolish the Welsh Assembly party that won no seats and got a tiny percentage of the vote, ~3% if I recall.
Totally agree with you. The political landscape of the UK is unrecognisable from 2014. Labour has no mandate in Scotland. We've left the EU. NI is a mess. We have an English Nationalist Prime Minister and government.
Welsh Labour will not be able to ally themselves to a Starmeresque PLP (nor should they) if it's Tory-Lite. I really don't know how Welsh people can support this current crop of Conservatives and government as they hold us (Wales) in complete contempt. Starmer campaigning for a UK will just backfire in Wales and NI as it already has in Scotland.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for Scotland to have another vote. There shouldn't be any limit on the number of times. Anyone who argues against this argues against democracy itself. More voting is a good thing. More people voting is a good thing.
The Sennedd should have greater power. Westminster's style of government is ancient. Unfit for purpose. Invoking Henry VIII powers says all you need to know about its ability to support and respect the people who vote for our MPs. Don't even get me started on the The Lords.
Cyril makes great point about the border issues and the EU's attitude towards us. However, it's much more likely that in order to keep the UK in one piece, we'll have to embrace EU membership again. In a lot of respects, it would solve many problems (providing Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast keep their national governments).
Yes, the 'Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party' made themselves look right dicks as does anyone who wants to weaken the democracy of their country, speaks ill if the Senedd or even actively supports its abolition.
I've said many times, I'm not into Nationalism. I've now had enough of flags and anthems. I'm much more concerned about people's power to decide for themselves and for that reason independence appeals. Independence doesn't mean nationalism. F*ck it. I'd even like to see an independent Grangetown!
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I am no fan of the SNP; they talk absolute bollocks about Westminster - their tone towards it is far worse than even UKIPs was toward the EU and they have a remarkable range of powers to fix problems they blame on someone else.
Said with a straight face somehow.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
What the feck are Welsh speaking Welsh people doing voting Conservative?
It's like giving your horrible uncle a shotgun then crying like a baby when he shoots you up the arse
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
What exactly is the problem with regularly holding a referendum on something so fundamental? So long as there is a threshold to prevent a Brexit style fag paper thin win, I actually think it is a pretty good way of resolving the situation.
they resolved the situation, they vote NO, what you mean is resolve the situation in a way the SNP want it resolved
I guess its the tag line " once in a lifetime " giving the impression the public had one shot at it " in their lifetime ", little did they know it meant " a chance to vote the way we want you to, incase you dont get it, thats YES, if we dont get the vote we want, we keep on voting till we do " , easy mistake to make though :shrug:
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
The Brexit result was the last straw for the Scots. English Nationalism prevailed. I’m not for the break up of the UK but if I was Scottish I’d definitely want it and I can’t see how the Welsh can continue to hang onto England if it keeps voting for the unhinged lunacy of the current Tory/UKIP freaks.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The difference between us and them is there is a very strong independence movement , backed up by votes , in Scotland
Thankfully , from my point of view it's not the same here
Foreign rule has served us well hasn't it.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Excellent. Then we should be telling pensioners that their contributions don't matter as everything they receive is paid for by current tax payers.
Yes tell them that they don't matter for current pensions, but thank them for building the country in the past and paying the Pensions for the oldies back in the day:thumbup:
The point is she wants to pick and choose the best of everything, she wants to take the oil and gas for Scotland so the UK can't have any benefit, then for the rest of the UK to pay her pensioners, she can get stuffed!
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
Foreign rule has served us well hasn't it.
Isn't Wales the lowest revenue from tax per population in the UK?
If so how would that work if we were independant?
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Surely if they've paid their NI into the UK pot, they should be entitled to it?
They are entitled to it but there is no 'pot'. What is collected this week in NI payments goes out next week in pension payments, it has been so since the day it was started. In fact the pay out now is more each week than the income because people live longer, so in theory if Scotland leaves there will be no lump sum for them to be entitled to and should be less extra money going out each week.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Totally agree with you. The political landscape of the UK is unrecognisable from 2014. Labour has no mandate in Scotland. We've left the EU. NI is a mess. We have an English Nationalist Prime Minister and government.
Welsh Labour will not be able to ally themselves to a Starmeresque PLP (nor should they) if it's Tory-Lite. I really don't know how Welsh people can support this current crop of Conservatives and government as they hold us (Wales) in complete contempt. Starmer campaigning for a UK will just backfire in Wales and NI as it already has in Scotland.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for Scotland to have another vote. There shouldn't be any limit on the number of times. Anyone who argues against this argues against democracy itself. More voting is a good thing. More people voting is a good thing.
The Sennedd should have greater power. Westminster's style of government is ancient. Unfit for purpose. Invoking Henry VIII powers says all you need to know about its ability to support and respect the people who vote for our MPs. Don't even get me started on the The Lords.
Cyril makes great point about the border issues and the EU's attitude towards us. However, it's much more likely that in order to keep the UK in one piece, we'll have to embrace EU membership again. In a lot of respects, it would solve many problems (providing Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast keep their national governments).
Yes, the 'Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party' made themselves look right dicks as does anyone who wants to weaken the democracy of their country, speaks ill if the Senedd or even actively supports its abolition.
I've said many times, I'm not into Nationalism. I've now had enough of flags and anthems. I'm much more concerned about people's power to decide for themselves and for that reason independence appeals. Independence doesn't mean nationalism. F*ck it. I'd even like to see an independent Grangetown!
Westminster holds Wales in such contempt they're set to overturn Welsh legislation because they don't like it.
You're quite right, independence doesn't mean nationalism. It's apparent that, politically, England, Wales, NI and Scotland are three distinct countries and it's probably better for them to have these debates over independence
I notice in the most recent poll, 25% of Welsh people back independence, up to 32% when discounting "don't knows". That's a significant jump from where that issue was not long ago and I can't imagine Johnson's "muscular unionism" is helping the unionist cause much
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
Westminster holds Wales in such contempt they're set to overturn Welsh legislation because they don't like it.
You're quite right, independence doesn't mean nationalism. It's apparent that, politically, England, Wales, NI and Scotland are three distinct countries and it's probably better for them to have these debates over independence
I notice in the most recent poll, 25% of Welsh people back independence, up to 32% when discounting "don't knows". That's a significant jump from where that issue was not long ago and I can't imagine Johnson's "muscular unionism" is helping the unionist cause much
Isn't Wales the lowest revenue from tax per population in the UK?
If so how would that work if we were independant?
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Said with a straight face somehow.
Because it is true. Aside from anything else, they have tax raising powers that they don't use, but blame Westminster for austerity.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
Westminster holds Wales in such contempt they're set to overturn Welsh legislation because they don't like it.
You're quite right, independence doesn't mean nationalism. It's apparent that, politically, England, Wales, NI and Scotland are three distinct countries and it's probably better for them to have these debates over independence
I notice in the most recent poll, 25% of Welsh people back independence, up to 32% when discounting "don't knows". That's a significant jump from where that issue was not long ago and I can't imagine Johnson's "muscular unionism" is helping the unionist cause much
This is public spending by country. "Westminster holds Wales in contempt" sounds like nationalist tub thumping that doesn't stand up under even the lightest of scrutiny.
Wales £12,889
England £11,783
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...fings/sn04033/
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
they resolved the situation, they vote NO, what you mean is resolve the situation in a way the SNP want it resolved
I guess its the tag line " once in a lifetime " giving the impression the public had one shot at it " in their lifetime ", little did they know it meant " a chance to vote the way we want you to, incase you dont get it, thats YES, if we dont get the vote we want, we keep on voting till we do " , easy mistake to make though :shrug:
So we just focus on the semantics? What is the actual issue with holding a regular referendum with a threshold of say 55%?
Should the next general election be a final once and for all decision on who the government should be?
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Nice try at deflection there Mr J. There's no tub-thumping going on. I know you like your links so here's another one for you https://nation.cymru/news/not-right-...-military-aid/
The BTL comments are very revealing too. Yma o Hyd.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
1/ It's not deflection. Someone who holds someone else in contempt doesn't give them significantly more funding than the person they supposedly represent.
2 / I think someone saying that Westminster holds Wales in contempt is tubthumping. There's no real justification for that strong word. It's wholly designed to be divisive.
3 / I think my statistics trump your article, given that they refer to all public spending. Your's refers to a specific payment to the Ukraine. When the UK govt announce extra spending on English hospitals, then Wales' gets the corresponding amount, to spend as it wishes. I see no issue here really, although it should all be done in agreement, but I doubt Wales or Scotland would agree.
4 / I'm proud that Wales is militarily supporting Ukraine. Our share of £1bn towards weapons against Putin will go further than a Ukraine flag on a facebook profile. It also probably makes economic sense, as the Ukraine-Russia war is severely damaging all western economies, including ours in Wales.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
1/ It's not deflection. Someone who holds someone else in contempt doesn't give them significantly more funding than the person they supposedly represent.
2 / I think someone saying that Westminster holds Wales in contempt is tubthumping. There's no real justification for that strong word. It's wholly designed to be divisive.
3 / I think my statistics trump your article, given that they refer to all public spending. Your's refers to a specific payment to the Ukraine. When the UK govt announce extra spending on English hospitals, then Wales' gets the corresponding amount, to spend as it wishes. I see no issue here really, although it should all be done in agreement, but I doubt Wales or Scotland would agree.
4 / I'm proud that Wales is militarily supporting Ukraine. Our share of £1bn towards weapons against Putin will go further than a Ukraine flag on a facebook profile.
After your reply to me on the other thread I've no wish to discuss anything or have anything to do with you. Just ignore my posts please and I'll do the same to yours.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
From the report you've linked: "For Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the data include spending by the
devolved administrations but also spending in these countries by UK
Government departments. For example, the Department for Work and
Pensions is responsible for social security spending throughout Great Britain.
So, for example, DWP spending on social security in Scotland is included
under Scotland in the tables below.
These figures show the amount of money that was spent in each country and
region; however, this does not reflect the process of allocating money in the
first place. Spending is first divided up among the Government departments
in Spending Reviews every few years, and it is then up to each department to
decide what to spend this money on
Parliament has no direct role in allocating spending"
I wonder if there may be some ideological differences between governments that could lead to more spending?
Funding of course isn't the issue I raised, it was the UK government intending to scrap Welsh legislation. As you didn't mention that I can only assume you agree with me that overturning another parliament's legislation is treating it with contempt? Good stuff.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
After your reply to me on the other thread I've no wish to discuss anything or have anything to do with you. Just ignore my posts please and I'll do the same to yours.
:hehe: I hope you feel better after lunch.
Perhaps if you don't like being called racist, you shouldn't run around calling other people the same? There's an idea. Use logic instead.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
From the report you've linked: "For Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the data include spending by the
devolved administrations but also spending in these countries by UK
Government departments. For example, the Department for Work and
Pensions is responsible for social security spending throughout Great Britain.
So, for example, DWP spending on social security in Scotland is included
under Scotland in the tables below.
These figures show the amount of money that was spent in each country and
region; however, this does not reflect the process of allocating money in the
first place. Spending is first divided up among the Government departments
in Spending Reviews every few years, and it is then up to each department to
decide what to spend this money on
Parliament has no direct role in allocating spending"
I wonder if there may be some ideological differences between governments that could lead to more spending?
Funding of course isn't the issue I raised, it was the UK government intending to scrap Welsh legislation. As you didn't mention that I can only assume you agree with me that overturning another parliament's legislation is treating it with contempt? Good stuff.
I'm in favour of devolution, and of increasing powers to the senedd, and of increasing numbers of MS's. I also don't think Westminster should overide senedd decisions, although these things can be complex and would need to know the whole story.
I'm not, on balance, in favour of independence. I'm probably 80%-20% against.
I'm 100% against nationalists whipping things up and dividing people by alluding to Westminster (read England?) holding Wales in contempt when there is very little justification for it.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Should the next general election be a final once and for all decision on who the government should be?
No, because its not a "" once in a lifetime " vote and not a every 5 year general election, but you knew that
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I cant listen to the lady ..
She us worse than Boris in debt every year ,scandals , poor management of thier government..
What better tactic to adopt than Boris's make headlines elsewhere about crap and ingore domestic issues , now Covid has gone First Minsters are anonymous..
At least she can string a sentence together.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
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Originally Posted by
Trigger
Be a disaster when they leave and the SNP after realising their only real aim and policy disintegrate quicker than ukip.
Echo chamber up there, similar to Welsh labour here. All start believing their own BS.
At least in Westminster you have two parties who go at it, call each other out, generally provide balance even if they are both shit.
As soon as they leave they'd just govern - there's no reason for them to be a UKIP
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Don't blame them, if I were Scottish after 12 years of declining living standards under the tories and brexit I'd chance my arms at something else as well. If they succeed I expect they'd try and join the EU as soon as possible.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
Don't blame them, if I were Scottish after 12 years of declining living standards under the tories and brexit I'd chance my arms at something else as well. If they succeed I expect they'd try and join the EU as soon as possible.
The SNP do dispute the GERS figures, but they show a income / expenditure gaps of 15bn. Percentage of GDP wise, this is far greater than the EU would tolerate for membership. It would also lead to the kind of austerity Scotland has never before seen. Or a massive rise in taxes to combat it, with the corresponding risk that brings.
There are arguments in favour - in terms of energy, Scotland could become an absolute powerhouse with a low population and access to oil, wind, and even some sun. Generally speaking though, it's an incredible risk. I certainly wouldnt take it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-53917226
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
No, because its not a "" once in a lifetime " vote and not a every 5 year general election, but you knew that
Only because someone decided that. What is the logic behind that being the case?
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
No, because its not a "" once in a lifetime " vote and not a every 5 year general election, but you knew that
You should go back in time to 2017 and tell that to Theresa May.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
In 2020/21, per capita £ government spending on services :
13,166 England
14,842 pounds in Scotland
14,222 pounds in Wales
15,357 pounds in Northern Ireland
SNP are liked because there Scottish , independence is itw theme ,masking the real job ahead of a government , I'm unsure it carriers the same voting appeal .
Ask Nicola what currently will she trade with and where she would sit with NATO defence commitments.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
In 2020/21, per capita £ government spending on services :
13,166 England
14,842 pounds in Scotland
14,222 pounds in Wales
15,357 pounds in Northern Ireland
SNP are liked because there Scottish , independence is itw theme ,masking the real job ahead of a government , I'm unsure it carriers the same voting appeal .
Ask Nicola what currently will she trade with and where she would sit with NATO defence commitments.
now do spending on infrastructure per capita
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
FFFFRRREEEEDDDOOOMMM.....
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
In 2020/21, per capita £ government spending on services :
13,166 England
14,842 pounds in Scotland
14,222 pounds in Wales
15,357 pounds in Northern Ireland
SNP are liked because there Scottish , independence is itw theme ,masking the real job ahead of a government , I'm unsure it carriers the same voting appeal .
Ask Nicola what currently will she trade with and where she would sit with NATO defence commitments.
The SNP aren't liked because they are Scottish??? Why anyone would want to leave a Union based on that conclusion is baffling!
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
I think my problem with nationalism of any type, even the 'cuddly' type espoused by Scottish and Welsh nationalism is that it seeks to divide people who have everything in common along the lines of a map. I get the fact that the Scots hate being ruled by Conservative governments they never vote for but so do the people of the North of England, only they don't get to cut and run because they live on the wrong side of the border. And where does it end? If in 30 years time the Tories get elected in Scotland what then? Does Glasgow become independent? Or Shetland?
What the nats never acknowledge is that the problems of ordinary working people are not caused by the working people of another country, they are caused by the ruling class. Simply swapping one set of rulers for another without any real structural change wont solve any of those problems.
As an example, was the life of ordinary black people made much better for having Obama as President? A lot of people of colour thought that if they elected one of their own as President, then it was pretty much a guarantee that things would get better for them but they didn't. The reason for this is that other than a bit of tinkering around the edges, Obama did nothing to change the power structure in America, so the exploiters were allowed to go on exploiting. I see a lot of parallel with the Scots, who feel that they're bound to be better off with one of their own in charge. As far as I can see, the SNP are still absolutely wedded to the same economic system thats been merrily screwing over working people for the last 40 years so in reality, very little will change.
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Re: Wee Jimmy Krankie is off again
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cardiff Ultra
I think my problem with nationalism of any type, even the 'cuddly' type espoused by Scottish and Welsh nationalism is that it seeks to divide people who have everything in common along the lines of a map. I get the fact that the Scots hate being ruled by Conservative governments they never vote for but so do the people of the North of England, only they don't get to cut and run because they live on the wrong side of the border. And where does it end? If in 30 years time the Tories get elected in Scotland what then? Does Glasgow become independent? Or Shetland?
What the nats never acknowledge is that the problems of ordinary working people are not caused by the working people of another country, they are caused by the ruling class. Simply swapping one set of rulers for another without any real structural change wont solve any of those problems.
As an example, was the life of ordinary black people made much better for having Obama as President? A lot of people of colour thought that if they elected one of their own as President, then it was pretty much a guarantee that things would get better for them but they didn't. The reason for this is that other than a bit of tinkering around the edges, Obama did nothing to change the power structure in America, so the exploiters were allowed to go on exploiting. I see a lot of parallel with the Scots, who feel that they're bound to be better off with one of their own in charge. As far as I can see, the SNP are still absolutely wedded to the same economic system thats been merrily screwing over working people for the last 40 years so in reality, very little will change.
Top post. :thumbup: