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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFC_Urawa_Reds
The pro-EU propaganda is almost criminal. However, which way to vote? I believe an OUT vote will be better for The UK as a whole .. but an IN vote may be better for Wales.
If we do vote OUT .. at least we will be able to deport foreign criminals and radical hate preachers who are wasting tax payers' money.
Oh ... and we can tell The EU's "human rights" bill (which seem to protect criminals more than victims) to f right off !
What about some of the Out Propaganda, some blatant lies that have been corrected and apologised for.
Dont put out your own propaganda about either side and then criticise propaganda.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
That last sentence in the 2nd paragraph is EPIC: "We in Wales especially have grown accustomed to (until recently) 100% of our laws being made abroad. An out vote isn't going to change that."
Certainly, whenever Wales votes, England rules.
Why people vote Labour and Tory is beyond me.
I see all the Labour supporter signs in Pontypridd and, more confusingly, the Conservative supporter signs on grubby semi-detached houses on Manor Way .. and wonder if these people vote this way because they always have (akin to football club loyalty) regardless of whether the policies of the party suit their area/the candidates give a flying f about their area/the candidate/party will actually improve their area.
Looking at Pontypridd and Cardiff North, I would say Labour and The Conservatives have failed both areas.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barry Dragon
That depends who you believe. Lots of opinions contradicting one another about at the moment.
The troubles europe are having can be fixed quite easily by a 1 state model. That is why it's heading that way, Europe as is is not a great model, in order for europe to work, it needs to become a federal state. It wont work properly unless a federal state is introduced. So if we vote in, we are voting for 1 state, might be 5 years or 20 years, but that's the way it will go.
I wouldn't believe anyone who says a US of E is likely, especially not in those short timescales. Deciding that that is what the vote is really about is barmy imo.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
I wouldn't believe anyone who says a US of E is likely, especially not in those short timescales. Deciding that that is what the vote is really about is barmy imo.
I am sure those that voted in 1975 never thought that their vote would lead what we have now. But it did. It wasnt what they voted for, but its what it lead to.
Many in europe have called for greater closeness already. The view of europe around the world is that its current model is broken, and the only way to make it work is for a federal government. This is widely held view. Tax revenues needs to be shared around europe when they have a single currency so we dont see Germany profiting off the bad state europe is in, whilst Spain Greece and others struggle. There is no balance. Without a currency to strengthen and weaken with the economy then it will never work without shared tax revenues and more common policy.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Germany and others have called for closer political union. They want a european commissioner to veto members states budgets. Doing so would almost complete the transfer to a federal state. We are not that far away from it, we have a form of a federal state already. Just an incomplete model.
They have powers over movement of people, they have powers over law, they have a single currency (for most states). Only the army and taxes left for them to take, and they want to control how we spend our taxes. That is certainly on the road to a federal state, and there are many who want to accelerate that road.
have a read of this
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...ropean-britain
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Yes I do think for myself.
1. Great Britain had a Coal Mining industry before the EU (we are still importing coal)
2. Great Britain had a Steel Industry before the EU (we will continue to import steel)
3. Great Britain had a British car industry before the EU
4. Great Britain had a Ship Building industry before the EU
5. Thick Welders like myself could afford to get on the housing ladder before the EU
6. Water, Gas, Rail, Electric were owned by British companies
7. British Nuclear power was owned and controlled by British companies
8. The bankers did not get bailed out before the EU
9. The Gold reserves were not sold off to Pound land before the EU
10. The privatisation of anything that wasn't nailed down didn't start until after joining the EU
11. The distribution of wealth, always obscenely biased, has gone of the scale
12. Youth unemployment is now, and has been for some time following the euro model, where is their future after 40 years of Brussels ?
13. Trade with Europe was plentiful
14. Trade with other parts of the world not subjected to a Brussels rule
During this period of British erosion we are judged to be the best performing economy within the EU, does it not make you wonder how bad it is for many in the other countries of the EU Superstate?
During this period I have been through Labour and Tory governments who both have sat back and allowed
Brussels to suck cash, veto laws, introduce their laws and whilst you casually side line it all against
Tory and labour Governments, there is a common denominator and that is Brussels.
I remember the winter of discontent and much of the bad shite, it wasn't a bed of roses, but they were days that
you knocked your neighbours door and if they had 1/2 a bag of sugar and you had none, you were given some.
The EU aided by Tory and Labour governments have changed peoples mindsets into a more more more society,
2nd holiday, 2nd car, Joe Bloggs owning 5 houses to rent, debt is good, have to be a shareholder, etc. etc.
Actually, you have demonstrated quite beautifully how little the EU has actually changed things in the UK.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barry Dragon
Germany and others have called for closer political union. They want a european commissioner to veto members states budgets. Doing so would almost complete the transfer to a federal state. We are not that far away from it, we have a form of a federal state already. Just an incomplete model.
They have powers over movement of people, they have powers over law, they have a single currency (for most states).
Only the army and taxes left for them to take, and they want to control how we spend our taxes. That is certainly on the road to a federal state, and there are many who want to accelerate that road.
have a read of this
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...ropean-britain
Germany annexing Dutch Military:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...a-step-closer/
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barry Dragon
I am sure those that voted in 1975 never thought that their vote would lead what we have now. But it did. It wasnt what they voted for, but its what it lead to.
Many in europe have called for greater closeness already. The view of europe around the world is that its current model is broken, and the only way to make it work is for a federal government. This is widely held view. Tax revenues needs to be shared around europe when they have a single currency so we dont see Germany profiting off the bad state europe is in, whilst Spain Greece and others struggle. There is no balance. Without a currency to strengthen and weaken with the economy then it will never work without shared tax revenues and more common policy.
I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy, any laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy, any
laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu
Would that be the same if it were a vote for welsh independence?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy, any laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tommy31
Would that be the same if it were a vote for welsh independence?
I don't know to be honest, it's not something I have thought about, what do you think?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Yes I do think for myself.
1. Great Britain had a Coal Mining industry before the EU (we are still importing coal)
2. Great Britain had a Steel Industry before the EU (we will continue to import steel)
3. Great Britain had a British car industry before the EU
4. Great Britain had a Ship Building industry before the EU
5. Thick Welders like myself could afford to get on the housing ladder before the EU
6. Water, Gas, Rail, Electric were owned by British companies
7. British Nuclear power was owned and controlled by British companies
8. The bankers did not get bailed out before the EU
9. The Gold reserves were not sold off to Pound land before the EU
10. The privatisation of anything that wasn't nailed down didn't start until after joining the EU
11. The distribution of wealth, always obscenely biased, has gone of the scale
12. Youth unemployment is now, and has been for some time following the euro model, where is their future after 40 years of Brussels ?
13. Trade with Europe was plentiful
14. Trade with other parts of the world not subjected to a Brussels rule
During this period of British erosion we are judged to be the best performing economy within the EU, does it not make you wonder how bad it is for many in the other countries of the EU Superstate?
During this period I have been through Labour and Tory governments who both have sat back and allowed
Brussels to suck cash, veto laws, introduce their laws and whilst you casually side line it all against
Tory and labour Governments, there is a common denominator and that is Brussels.
I remember the winter of discontent and much of the bad shite, it wasn't a bed of roses, but they were days that
you knocked your neighbours door and if they had 1/2 a bag of sugar and you had none, you were given some.
The EU aided by Tory and Labour governments have changed peoples mindsets into a more more more society,
2nd holiday, 2nd car, Joe Bloggs owning 5 houses to rent, debt is good, have to be a shareholder, etc. etc.
You forget that we were the,'sick man of Europe' before we joined the Common Market. The EU haters conveniently forget this.
The one positive is that finally organisations as diverse as the Midwife's Association through to the NFU are extolling the benefits of the EU.
I dread the thought of the raving right wingers getting their way come Refefendum Day.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CCFC_Urawa_Reds
The pro-EU propaganda is almost criminal. However, which way to vote? I believe an OUT vote will be better for The UK as a whole .. but an IN vote may be better for Wales.
If we do vote OUT .. at least we will be able to deport foreign criminals and radical hate preachers who are wasting tax payers' money.
Oh ... and we can tell The EU's "human rights" bill (which seem to protect criminals more than victims) to f right off !
Good. I'm glad you find the EU in propaganda almost criminal. About time the propaganda was the other way around after having to tolerate years of the right wing press and Farage slagging off the EU with their lies and distortion.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
You forget that we were the,'sick man of Europe' before we joined the Common Market. The EU haters conveniently forget this.
The one positive is that finally organisations as diverse as the Midwife's Association through to the NFU are extolling the benefits of the EU.
I dread the thought of the raving right wingers getting their way come Refefendum Day.
I didn't forget at all fella, I remember the bad times, for me an out vote is the best option of the two evils.
The day I started my apprenticeship, The AUEW were on a 3 day week, I'll never forget that, it was my 1st introduction
into unionised workshops, incidentally and after a 30 year absence, and vowing never ever to again join after being subjected
to their bully boy tactics as a 21 year old, I joined a union in October last year.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
I didn't forget at all fella, I remember the bad times, for me an out vote is the best option of the two evils.
The day I started my apprenticeship, The AUEW were on a 3 day week, I'll never forget that, it was my 1st introduction
into unionised workshops, incidentally and after a 30 year absence, and vowing never ever to again join after being subjected
to their bully boy tactics as a 21 year old, I joined a union in October last year.
Have we moved onto a different topic?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
I didn't forget at all fella, I remember the bad times, for me an out vote is the best option of the two evils.
The day I started my apprenticeship, The AUEW were on a 3 day week, I'll never forget that, it was my 1st introduction
into unionised workshops, incidentally and after a 30 year absence, and vowing never ever to again join after being subjected
to their bully boy tactics as a 21 year old, I joined a union in October last year.
OK. You chose not to mention it in your long list of how good things used to be at a time when we were being bailed out by the IMF, having previously devalued the pound, with inflation and unemployment at higher levels than now abd with three day weeks,power cuts etc etc.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Have we moved onto a different topic?
have we ?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy, any laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu
So which Laws passed by Brussels have had an adverse affect on the life Mrs SR?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
OK. You chose not to mention it in your long list of how good things used to be at a time when we were being bailed out by the IMF, having previously devalued the pound, with inflation and unemployment at higher levels than now abd with three day weeks,power cuts etc etc.
I'm sure I did mention the winter of discontent somewhere in the thread.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
I'm sure I did mention the winter of discontent somewhere in the thread.
Yeah but that was later though in 78/79.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
I don't know to be honest, it's not something I have thought about, what do you think?
is just a question, answers are personal. It's something I've been interested in since the referendum was announced.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
Yeah but that was later though in 78/79.
Ok. you got me on the year for this particular set of strikes. :thumbup:
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Actually, you have demonstrated quite beautifully how little the EU has actually changed things in the UK.
That's your view of it Eric, I am quite clear what I think, even if you think I have not demonstrated it correctly, this will be a free vote for the people to vote how they want I respect anyone voting they way they wish to go, I will be voting out, for me it's the best option of two bad options.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
So which Laws passed by Brussels have had an adverse affect on the life Mrs SR?
Does my decision have to be based on what's had an adverse affect on my life? I'm not really thinking of my life, I'm thinking of the future of my kids tbh.
(I'm not right wing btw)
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
[QUOTE=Mrs Steve R;4616682]Does my decision have to be based on what's had an adverse affect on my life? I'm not really thinking of my life, I'm thinking of the future of my kids tbh.
(I'm not right wing btw)
I didn't think you were right wing but it's the obsession with Europe amongst right wing Tories which is why we are having this referendum. I think you will give me that.
What happens if your children want to work in Europe when they grow up?
Most youngsters want to stay in the EU. They are the future.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
That's your view of it Eric, I am quite clear what I think, even if you think I have not demonstrated it correctly, this will be a free vote for the people to vote how they want I respect anyone voting they way they wish to go, I will be voting out, for me it's the best option of two bad options.
All your reasons have nothing really to do with being in the eu though. Do some actual research before making your decision please.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearcey3
I didn't think you were right wing but it's the obsession with Europe amongst right wing Tories which is why we are having this referendum. I think you will give me that.
What happens if your children want to work in Europe when they grow up?
Most youngsters want to stay in the EU. They are the future.
Just wanted to make sure :hehe:
What if they want to work anywhere else in the world? people manage to do it all the time so I don't really see that as an issue.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
Just wanted to make sure :hehe:
What if they want to work anywhere else in the world? people manage to do it all the time so I don't really see that as an issue.
It really isn't that easy outside the eu. Ask anyone trying to work in the us or the hassle people go to, to work in austrailia.
The eu it's easy for our graduates to get good experience currently. It's probably the one reason making me want to vote either way.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
All your reasons have nothing really to do with being in the eu though. Do some actual research before making your decision please.
As you said previously though, the most experienced people can't agree what is for the best, in all honesty it's a guess in most cases. Who can second guess what state Europe will be in in 5/10/15 years time etc.
At least Nelson has given it some thought, whether you agree with those points or not. How many people will just vote along traditional right/left wing patterns.
The problem is, where do you get genuine correct information from? It's difficult to know what is true and what isn't. Both sides are claiming the other are spouting propaganda so who do we believe?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Maybe that's a point but there are some unbiased journals etc that you can read. At the end of the day it just shows how stupid a referendum it is.
If it's really beneficial for us to leave they should make the decision for us, what else are they elected for?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
Just wanted to make sure :hehe:
What if they want to work anywhere else in the world? people manage to do it all the time so I don't really see that as an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
It really isn't that easy outside the eu. Ask anyone trying to work in the us or the hassle people go to, to work in austrailia.
The eu it's easy for our graduates to get good experience currently. It's probably the one reason making me want to vote either way.
Yeah it might not be as easy but it's not impossible, what's a bit of hassle if it's really what you want to do? A friend of ours went on a hairdressing course just to get in to Australia, he was the last person you would want to give a pair of scissors to :hehe: he's still there though.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Maybe that's a point but there are some unbiased journals etc that you can read. At the end of the day it just shows how stupid a referendum it is.
If it's really beneficial for us to leave they should make the decision for us, what else are they elected for?
You say it's stupid but it appears to be quite close to call, so surely that's what democracy is about. I wouldn't call that stupid.
What I call stupid is MPs with political agendas pushing what is best for them instead of the country. Which ever way the vote goes it will be the will of the people so there can be no complaints.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
Yeah it might not be as easy but it's not impossible, what's a bit of hassle if it's really what you want to do? A friend of ours went on a hairdressing course just to get in to Australia, he was the last person you would want to give a pair of scissors to :hehe: he's still there though.
I don't think Sweeney Todd had to worry about immigration points. :coat:
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TruBlue
You say it's stupid but it appears to be quite close to call, so surely that's what democracy is about. I wouldn't call that stupid.
What I call stupid is MPs with political agendas pushing what is best for them instead of the country. Which ever way the vote goes it will be the will of the people so there can be no complaints.
Why not let the public vote on every decision then?
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
Yeah it might not be as easy but it's not impossible, what's a bit of hassle if it's really what you want to do? A friend of ours went on a hairdressing course just to get in to Australia, he was the last person you would want to give a pair of scissors to :hehe: he's still there though.
It's a lot more than a bit of hassle, getting a job in the states is more or less impossible if you aren't being sponsored by a British company. I've worked in a few European countries and it's almost as easy as getting a job here. For me that's one thing that's great about the EU.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TruBlue
I don't think Sweeney Todd had to worry about immigration points. :coat:
:hehe:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Why not let the public vote on every decision then?
I think we should get more of a say somehow.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TruBlue
You say it's stupid but it appears to be quite close to call, so surely that's what democracy is about. I wouldn't call that stupid.
What I call stupid is MPs with political agendas pushing what is best for them instead of the country. Which ever way the vote goes it will be the will of the people so there can be no complaints.
But that is the only reason this referendum is taking place. Warring factions of the Tory party and a leadership desperately trying to keep it in one piece.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy,
any laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu
I suppose that judgement begins with how you see your identity and interests defined. Is it all about living on an island off the north west coast of Europe?
I am Welsh and British and European - and all of those labels are important to me - but I define myself by my experience in the Labour market, my (lack of) religious beliefs, my language, my political views, a shared culture, an internationalist outlook, my membership of different national and international organisations, friendships, and many other references.
I am much more confident that my interests will be served by people from Belgium or Germany or Portugal who share my political views and experience of power and wealth, than by George Osbourne or Boris Johnson. I am also much more likely to support the people and institutions that introduced the EU Social Policy (with so many rights that became enshrined in UK law) than the people who invented the Bedroom Tax.
Apart from that the case for staying in is nailed by Sludge - just look at the swivel eyed clowns who want to leave!
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Why not let the public vote on every decision then?
The cost and logistics of it I guess. Other countries have a lot more referendums than us.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
But that is the only reason this referendum is taking place. Warring factions of the Tory party and a leadership desperately trying to keep it in one piece.
It was part of their manifesto, the one they were voted in on. Whatever it was done for, it was also voted for by the public.
In addition to that there was 4 million UKIP voters who are obviously also quite keen on a vote.
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Re: Brexit ( should I say or should I go )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I suppose that judgement begins with how you see your identity and interests defined. Is it all about living on an island off the north west coast of Europe?
I am Welsh and British and European - and all of those labels are important to me - but I define myself by my experience in the Labour market, my (lack of) religious beliefs, my language, my political views, a shared culture, an internationalist outlook, my membership of different national and international organisations, friendships, and many other references.
I am much more confident that my interests will be served by people from Belgium or Germany or Portugal who share my political views and experience of power and wealth, than by George Osbourne or Boris Johnson. I am also much more likely to support the people and institutions that introduced the EU Social Policy (with so many rights that became enshrined in UK law) than the people who invented the Bedroom Tax.
Apart from that the case for staying in is nailed by Sludge - just look at the swivel eyed clowns who want to leave!
You still would be Welsh, British and European, we would still be part of Europe just not the EU.
The comment from Sludge is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard to be totally honest (sorry sludge but it is) to associate anyone who wants to vote out with certain people such as Farage is totally unfair imo, some may share the same views as these people but it's totally wrong to suggest that everybody does, people need to be able to make their own minds up without fear of being associated with other people that may want the same thing but for different reasons.
By Sludge's logic, he shares the same views as David Cameron :hehe: just look at the kent that wants to stay!
