Let's get the f*** out - (part 2)

Can you explain to me how the current London centric government is voting on things in the interest of you? Look at the state labour and Tory governments have let Wales outside of Cardiff and the north of England slip into.

I'd love to see sensible congestion charges for cities brought in, it works in London why not every city as long as they bring in suitable public transport and park and ride? We are polluting the shit out of everywhere and should be trying to cut that down. The fewer people on the roads the better, especially in busy urban areas.

If you believe it would be brought in for every single town you're falling for daily mail/sun propaganda.

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does he care how long the waiting lists are for the NHS? nope, does he care that disabled people are getting less benefits? nope, we need to be making our own decisions

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You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Exactly.

The UK government decides how much is spent on the NHS or disability benefits - it has nothing to do with the EU.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Dominic Raab, a junior justice minister, said: “On the ECHR the government’s position remains clear. We cannot rule out withdrawal forever, but our forthcoming proposals do not include withdrawal from the convention"

Wait and see what happens, we will be under our own bill of rights within 5 years of leaving. It's obvious to anyone with slight knowledge of the subject that it's more than likely.

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But do you have knowledge of the subject? Can you link me to the information that says if we leave the EU we will leave the ECHR?
Winston Churchill brought us in to the ECHR, we are one of its founding members and it has taken care of our human rights for something like 60 years, the fact that the insidious bitch Theresa May wants to get rid of it and stay in the EU is not a good thing imo, this has nothing to do with staying in the EU so we don't leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) though, they are two different things

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You do realise the UK has just voted in a government who's trying to make NHS waiting times longer so they can privatise it and have cut disabled benefits twice since getting in to power.

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Just to be clear, I hate them ****ers as much as you do but putting up with Boris for a short time is a small inconvenience compared to a life time of being stuck in the EU.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Just to be clear, I hate them ****ers as much as you do but putting up with Boris for a short time is a small inconvenience compared to a life time of being stuck in the EU.

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A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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The tories could do more lasting damage to the UK in four years than the EU could do in ten, I've no doubt about that.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Likewise, I base my view on what I think is best for my kids and, in time, their kids.

We have a choice over who governs us in the EU as much as we do in the UK i.e. through elections every five years.

If we vote to remain then you can continue to campaign to leave the EU. I'm sure UKIP and their right wing friends in the Tory party (along with Kate Hoey, Frank Field and George Galloway) will carry on peddling their myths about the "undemocratic" EU, sovereignty, border control and immigrants taking all our jobs.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

When you consider the last time we got a choice over this and the next time we will get a choice over this (12th of never) 4 years is nothing, I don't really like the options either but I have to think long term and think of the future of my kids, my decision is based on that.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Likewise, I base my view on what I think is best for my kids and, in time, their kids.

We have a choice over who governs us in the EU as much as we do in the UK i.e. through elections every five years.

If we vote to remain then you can continue to campaign to leave the EU. I'm sure UKIP and their right wing friends in the Tory party (along with Kate Hoey, Frank Field and George Galloway) will carry on peddling their myths about the "undemocratic" EU, sovereignty, border control and immigrants taking all our jobs.

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There you go again trying to put me in the UKIP category like you did before, quite insulting really, I have my own mind and I'm quite capable of using it, I am not influenced in any way by any of those people you mentioned and I have no interest in what they have to say on this matter.
Going on your logic I can only assume that you share the views of Cameron and the rest of the Tory 'IN' crowd.

Out of interest, if it meant leaving a Labour government in power would you consider voting out?

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

There you go again trying to put me in the UKIP category like you did before, quite insulting really, I have my own mind and I'm quite capable of using it, I am not influenced in any way by any of those people you mentioned and I have no interest in what they have to say on this matter.
Going on your logic I can only assume that you share the views of Cameron and the rest of the Tory 'IN' crowd.

Out of interest, if it meant leaving a Labour government in power would you consider voting out?

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Oh stop being so precious!

I'm not conflating you with UKIP and co. just pointing out the main organisation and individuals within the Brexit campaign as well as stating that a campaign to leave the EU will continue after June 23rd if they fail in their aims.

Whilst certainly no fan of Cameron and co. I agree with them on this issue. Politically I find their views on other matters slightly less obnoxious than the individuals mentioned earlier.

You say you have your own mind and take no notice of what these individuals have to say. Personally I find their comments interesting as they give an insight into how they see Britain post-Brexit. I find them narrow-minded, isolationist and reactionary which has helped me to make an informed decision with regards to the EU referendum.

They've been totally battered on the economic consequences of Brexit so will now rely on their arguments against immigration to persuade others to their cause. I suspect we both know how that argument will go.

With regards to their being a Labour government in power now then no, I would still be voting remain.

Of course if we had such a government then we wouldn't be wasting millions of pounds on this ridiculous referendum in the first place!

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

A short time?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do realise that the Tories have another FOUR years in power?

Can you not begin to imagine what devastation that vile creature backed up by the likes of Gove, IDS, Patel, Rees Mogg, Hannan, Fox, et al could bring to the UK?

Be very careful what you wish for.

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It will be a lot more than 4 years, people say they had a small majority but the way the consistencies vote that small majority will remain while we use the current voting system, especially with the Scottish voting snp (or not at all when they leave).

We won't see the back of the Tories for a long time and anyone thinking leaving the EU will improve the NHS or treatment of the disabled must have had their eyes closed since the last election.

And they still want to redraw the constituencies which will keep them in power even longer. I wonder if this will be easier to push through inside or outside of the eu?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It will be a lot more than 4 years, people say they had a small majority but the way the consistencies vote that small majority will remain while we use the current voting system, especially with the Scottish voting snp (or not at all when they leave).

We won't see the back of the Tories for a long time and anyone thinking leaving the EU will improve the NHS or treatment of the disabled must have had their eyes closed since the last election.

And they still want to redraw the constituencies which will keep them in power even longer. I wonder if this will be easier to push through inside or outside of the eu?

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There's a very easy way we could be free of tory rule...

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Originally Posted by tommy31

There's a very easy way we could be free of tory rule...

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Go on......

Because it won't be happening at the next general election.

What worries me about the comments I read is the lack of recognition provided by Europe and been adopted by governments including this one that greatly benefits of workers,whcih i guess would not have been adopted in a non European environment

Such as:
(a) improvement of working environment to protect workers' health and safety ,including working conditions
(b) Minimum wage , regulation standards of hours worked ,driving hours
(c) social security and social protection of workers;
(d) protection of workers where their employment contract is terminated;
(e) the information and consultation of workers;
(f) defense of the interests of workers and employers
(g) the integration of persons excluded from the labour market
(i) equality between men and women with regard to labour market opportunities and treatment at work;
(j) the combating of social exclusion ,maternity /paternity leave
(k) the modernisation of social protection systems without prejudice to point

Lastly here in Wales we have huge benefactors financially,( in its millions ) money we would not have seen if it was left to Whitehall funding ,so be careful what you choose and who you listen to , don't hear many of the Boris/Farage types telling me that Wales will be okay , we will make sure we match European funding for you areas of need and ensure workers rights are upheld, have you ???.

Being in Europe is safety net for Wales , we get benefits and protection that would not be seen otherwise .

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Oh stop being so precious!

I'm not conflating you with UKIP and co. just pointing out the main organisation and individuals within the Brexit campaign as well as stating that a campaign to leave the EU will continue after June 23rd if they fail in their aims.

Whilst certainly no fan of Cameron and co. I agree with them on this issue. Politically I find their views on other matters slightly less obnoxious than the individuals mentioned earlier.

You say you have your own mind and take no notice of what these individuals have to say. Personally I find their comments interesting as they give an insight into how they see Britain post-Brexit. I find them narrow-minded, isolationist and reactionary which has helped me to make an informed decision with regards to the EU referendum.

They've been totally battered on the economic consequences of Brexit so will now rely on their arguments against immigration to persuade others to their cause. I suspect we both know how that argument will go.

With regards to their being a Labour government in power now then no, I would still be voting remain.

Of course if we had such a government then we wouldn't be wasting millions of pounds on this ridiculous referendum in the first place!

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:hehe: precious? I just have no interest in UKIP and don't want to talk about them.

We all have our own opinions and our reasons for them, I'm just struggling to understand why so many people who hate Cameron with a passion most of the time would even consider trusting the evil tw@t on this issue tbh, since when has he ever cared about our interests?

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Originally Posted by tommy31

There's a very easy way we could be free of tory rule...

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Sadly, you may well be right.

UK votes to leave the EU. Scotland votes to leave the UK.

Wales is stuck with probable perpetual Tory rule from Westminster.

Wales votes to leave the UK.

Since when have Boris or Farage? It's a moot point yet again.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Sadly, you may well be right.

UK votes to leave the EU. Scotland votes to leave the UK.

Wales is stuck with probable perpetual Tory rule from Westminster.

Wales votes to leave the UK.

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And finances itself with..........

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Sadly, you may well be right.

UK votes to leave the EU. Scotland votes to leave the UK.

Wales is stuck with probable perpetual Tory rule from Westminster.

Wales votes to leave the UK.

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Is the way I see it going too. I'd be thinking very carefully about an out vote.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

:hehe: precious? I just have no interest in UKIP and don't want to talk about them.

We all have our own opinions and our reasons for them, I'm just struggling to understand why so many people who hate Cameron with a passion most of the time would even consider trusting the evil tw@t on this issue tbh, since when has he ever cared about our interests?

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The fact that I agree with Cameron on this issue does not mean I trust him.

There are an enormous number of other individuals and organisations who support us remaining in the EU and offer evidence to back up their assertions. Now you probably distrust the IMF, OECD, IFS, HM Treasury, BoE, etc. but are you seriously suggesting that they're all wrong?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

And finances itself with..........

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Probably with a begging bowl to the EU - if they let us join!!

I only posted what could happen. I have no desire to see an independent Wales.

I want the UK to remain intact and as an active member of the EU.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Just to be clear, I hate them ****ers as much as you do but putting up with Boris for a short time is a small inconvenience compared to a life time of being stuck in the EU.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Since when have Boris or Farage? It's a moot point yet again.

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When did I say they did? shall I just keep quoting myself until you believe me? :biggrin:



..and another thing, Obama is so keen for us to stay in so Cameron can help him spread his toxic TTIP trade deals across Europe, they pose a serious risk to the NHS according to some.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...nhs-leading-qc

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Dominic Raab, a junior justice minister, said: “On the ECHR the government’s position remains clear. We cannot rule out withdrawal forever, but our forthcoming proposals do not include withdrawal from the convention"

Wait and see what happens, we will be under our own bill of rights within 5 years of leaving. It's obvious to anyone with slight knowledge of the subject that it's more than likely.

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So...not you then?

We'll see

The ECHR is not the EU and the EU is not Europe.

The problem is that so many of those commenting on the EU have their own personal agendas (Boris is far more interested in appealing to party members than he is in securing the UK's international future while Theresa May prefers to create an authoritarian state rather than maintaining and building relationships with our neighbours) so we're left with little sensible debate.

Reform (and allowing the choice of direction to be opened up and widely commented on) seems far better at balancing the major positives of EU membership and elements which doesn't serve. I'm still undecided whether that is possible or whether it is a closed shop and we should consider leaving.

I do agree that Wales benefits massively from the UK being part of the EU, and the idea that the whole of Wales, Scotland and NI could vote to stay in but still be required to leave stinks of the "undemocratic" process leavers are criticising the EU for.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

eventually it will be only the wealthy that will be able to afford to travel as there will be carbon taxes on everything.

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:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Sadly, you may well be right.

UK votes to leave the EU. Scotland votes to leave the UK.

Wales is stuck with probable perpetual Tory rule from Westminster.

Wales votes to leave the UK.

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The bold will 100% happen if we vote to leave. The Scots couldn't give two shits that the economic plan behind their out campaign fell apart, they don't want to be stuck out in the Atlantic being ruled by some Toff in London. Leaving the EU makes all the difference.

Mrs SR Do you think we will be financially better off by leaving the EU? What do you think about what our midwives,scientists,environmentalists say about the benefits of staying in the EU?
I have yet to hear a single argument about why we should vote to leave.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Mrs SR Do you think we will be financially better off by leaving the EU? What do you think about what our midwives,scientists,environmentalists say about the benefits of staying in the EU?
I have yet to hear a single argument about why we should vote to leave.

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I'm thinking that they only know what they are told the same as us, if I'm 100% honest (and this will probably be taken the wrong way as usual) I really do not care if we will be financially better off or not, I care if people will be better off, I couldn't care less if Cameron is up there sharing the stage with the worlds top ten leaders, it means jack shit if behind the scenes people are still having to use food banks and sleeping on the streets of this country, I would rather us be a nobody in the world and a bit worse off if it means the interests of people are considered before large corporations ect

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if behind the scenes people are still having to use food banks and sleeping on the streets of this country, I would rather us be a nobody in the world and a bit worse off if it means the interests of people are considered before large corporations ect

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If this concerns you why are you voting leave the eu? That will cut funding for the poorest areas and leave us with a Tory government for 4 years who consider food banks to be part of the welfare state.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If this concerns you why are you voting leave the eu? That will cut funding for the poorest areas and leave us with a Tory government for 4 years who consider food banks to be part of the welfare state.

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Have you listened to a word I have said all day? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Have you listened to a word I have said all day? :hehe:

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Yes and not one word of it has made sense. You've made your mind up on conjecture and nothing will change it.

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I would rather us be a nobody in the world and a bit worse off if it means the interests of people are considered before large corporations ect

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I'd definitely trust the uk government to do this once we are independent.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Yes and not one word of it has made sense. You've made your mind up on conjecture and nothing will change it.

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What have you made your mind up on? last week you couldn't even decide yourself and wanted to find out more before you would even consider choosing either way, now suddenly you know it all and are constantly badgering me telling me I'm wrong, you couldn't make it up. :hehe:

It makes sense to me anyway and it's my choice at the end of the day which is what it's meant to be, maybe you should read up some more before you fully decide, check out the ECHR while your at it. :thumbup:

I haven't made my mind up either way and I am still reading all I can but you're another one of many who've made their mind up on unrelated pipe dreams and conjecture.

It goes this way every election in this country and its why a nation of majority working class people are stuck under a majority Tory government yet again and will continue to be for the majority of their lives.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I haven't made my mind up either way and I am still reading all I can but you're another one of many who've made their mind up on unrelated pipe dreams and conjecture.

It goes this way every election in this country and its why a nation of majority working class people are stuck under a majority Tory government yet again and will continue to be for the majority of their lives.

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My view would be that, we are stuck under a Tory government because, Labour voters are too lazy to get out of their armchairs, put down their cans of bow down for 20 mins and get their arses over to the voting booth to register their vote, how else do you account for such a resounding Tory victory at the last election?, additionally, traditional Labour voters have forgotten their roots and voted Tory to secure their 2nd foreign holiday and a 2nd car, I think that this Tory lot are on par if not worse than Thatchers lot, after a slow start, Jezza seems to be getting his act together and its about time, though even he has gone back over his previous EU stance, Britain will not come out of the EU, the vote is a charade.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I haven't made my mind up either way and I am still reading all I can but you're another one of many who've made their mind up on unrelated pipe dreams and conjecture.

It goes this way every election in this country and its why a nation of majority working class people are stuck under a majority Tory government yet again and will continue to be for the majority of their lives.

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That's what everyone is going to end up doing as you wont get 100% truth and facts from either side.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

That's what everyone is going to end up doing as you wont get 100% truth and facts from either side.

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I could (just about) vote but I'm not going to because it wouldn't be right because I have no dog in the fight. I read through this thread and I think your position is you want what's best for everyone both socially and economically. I hope I'm not paraphrasing horribly. The things is, to me, that means you should vote to stay and accept the status quo is pretty good and gives you the stability and prosperity and individual rights you crave. Leaving is just one huge jump in the dark. The EU is not perfect but it has delivered in terms of peace, prosperity, and human rights. Why vote to leave when nobody has a goo idea what awaits?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I love everyone except jacks , who move to London and complain about free movement

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https://youtu.be/21d_Xv9dHtc