Jacks having a little dig

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Yep, had lots of fun on here in June. Although your post count remains too out of reach :)

Nah, I get pigeon holed because that's the easiest way to deal with me. A thread about Swansea having a dig was always liable to end up in a "well they are in a position to have a dig".

I've been raising the same points for the last few years - generally people respond with abuse. Occasionally I get banned for not swearing.

No doubt I'll have further opportunities to raise these points - and you can all bat them away with character assassinations

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Of course it's out of reach you, flounced for a few weeks and come back with a new identity (despite saying you wouldn't sign up). :biggrin:

However I wouldn't worry about it too much, you aren't really known for sticking to your word. Remember your original rebrand posts....... :facepalm:

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

People have heard of Swansea now. However, unfortunately for them, I think their new owners are a bit late to the party. My point though, is that I would still rather have them than what we currently have and that I think they have every right to have a dig, as our owner turned us into a joke.

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Would you prefer local fans as owners or foreign businessmen? The Jacks have the former despite telling us they'd never being a wealthy mans plaything, they've since become a wealthy mans plaything.

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Of course it's out of reach you, flounced for a few weeks and come back with a new identity (despite saying you wouldn't sign up). :biggrin:

However I wouldn't worry about it too much, you aren't really known for sticking to your word. Remember your original rebrand posts....... :facepalm:

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I'll name that tune in one. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Splott-light...

I used to think like you, during the 'red era', but last season I went to a pile of games and despite Russell's best efforts I still enjoyed watching the team.

The bitterness you insist on holding onto is borne from decisions made during a bygone era, we're a blue club once more, let it go clart, you're fuc king depressing.

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So, because you are happy with the way the club is being g run now, I can't voice any dissatisfaction. Great argument!

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Of course it's out of reach you, flounced for a few weeks and come back with a new identity (despite saying you wouldn't sign up). :biggrin:

However I wouldn't worry about it too much, you aren't really known for sticking to your word. Remember your original rebrand posts....... :facepalm:

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Hmmm, so people must stick by their first viewpoint? They are not allowed to change opinions when presented with real evidence?

Again, you are allowed to set the agenda I am not.

For 200m pounds (Sky TV plus Tan investment) have Cardiff improved significantly?

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Would you prefer local fans as owners or foreign businessmen? The Jacks have the former despite telling us they'd never being a wealthy mans plaything, they've since become a wealthy mans plaything.

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Their fans may have said that. Not sure the owners did - but I am you have evidence to the contrary. Let's see it :D

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

I'll name that tune in one. :hehe:

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Hardly flounced - I was moving at the time and didn't sign up. Its true I did say I wasn't going to sign up, but I changed my mind. I also said I may join at a later date - but Trublue has distorted facts in a way to discredit any points I am making. Almost like a conspiracy theorist would.

So, from claiming I veered off target in the topic (as if that never happens) he has turned the thread with amazing dexterity. He's allowed to do it :D

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Hmmm, so people must stick by their first viewpoint? They are not allowed to change opinions when presented with real evidence?

Again, you are allowed to set the agenda I am not.

For 200m pounds (Sky TV plus Tan investment) have Cardiff improved significantly?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

So, because you are happy with the way the club is being g run now, I can't voice any dissatisfaction. Great argument!

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In your case it's not about merely voicing dissatisfaction but constant negativity in an attempt to drag others down to your bitter level.

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Originally Posted by Alfonso Perez

In your case it's not about merely voicing dissatisfaction but constant negativity in an attempt to drag others down to your bitter level.

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True.

Pretty sure hes the poster who kept saying there will be no pro football in Cardiff within a few years.

Now we are heading towards being a debt free club he doesnt like it.

He hates the club. Give it time we will overtake the Jacks and bitterness will go to new levels.

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Originally Posted by Alfonso Perez

In your case it's not about merely voicing dissatisfaction but constant negativity in an attempt to drag others down to your bitter level.

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What? Asking questions like - where did the Sky money and Tan's £100m investment go? And why are Cardiff one of the skintest teams in the division when they should be among the wealthiest?

Legitimate questions - but let's just say I'm bitter because that answers everything.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

True.

Pretty sure hes the poster who kept saying there will be no pro football in Cardiff within a few years.

Now we are heading towards being a debt free club he doesnt like it.

He hates the club. Give it time we will overtake the Jacks and bitterness will go to new levels.

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I did say that, yes. And I hate what Tan has turned the club into. Again, let's avoid the points of Tan's ownership and paint me to be a Jack. It works everytime.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

I did say that, yes. And I hate what Tan has turned the club into. Again, let's avoid the points of Tan's ownership and paint me to be a Jack. It works everytime.

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So when are you now predicting we are going bust?

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

What? Asking questions like - where did the Sky money and Tan's £100m investment go? And why are Cardiff one of the skintest teams in the division when they should be among the wealthiest?

Legitimate questions - but let's just say I'm bitter because that answers everything.

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If you are genuinely looking for answers to these questions I am sure that there are a number of people who could oblige. However, despite your name change most seem to have worked you out for what you are :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Alfonso Perez

If you are genuinely looking for answers to these questions I am sure that there are a number of people who could oblige. However, despite your name change most seem to have worked you out for what you are :thumbup:

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Ah, the old "let's disparage his character" routine. With all the practice you guys have had, I'd have expected you to get good at it by now.

I've been asking the questions for four years. The answers are always the same "You are a closet JacK", "You are a slimy JB" etc etc.

I won't ask the questions again (today). Maybe later in the season ;-)

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Originally Posted by Hilts

So when are you now predicting we are going bust?

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I'm not. And notice how I answer your questions - not a personal dig in sight.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Ah, the old "let's disparage his character" routine. With all the practice you guys have had, I'd have expected you to get good at it by now.

I've been asking the questions for four years.The answers are always the same "You are a closet JacK", "You are a slimy JB" etc etc.

I won't ask the questions again (today). Maybe later in the season ;-)

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In fairness you were asking completely different questions at first. Maybe it's just the question asking you enjoy and you've found a convenient topic.

I wonder how told him to that, as he is a yank he knows little or nothing about football (soccer to him)

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Hardly flounced - I was moving at the time and didn't sign up. Its true I did say I wasn't going to sign up, but I changed my mind. I also said I may join at a later date - but Trublue has distorted facts in a way to discredit any points I am making. Almost like a conspiracy theorist would.

So, from claiming I veered off target in the topic (as if that never happens) he has turned the thread with amazing dexterity. He's allowed to do it :D

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Chill out love :biggrin: I was just joking to TB, you can sign up with as many accounts as you like, it's none of my business.

As for the 'Almost like a conspiracy theorist would' comment, giving yourself away there :big grin: :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Hmmm, so people must stick by their first viewpoint? They are not allowed to change opinions when presented with real evidence?

Again, you are allowed to set the agenda I am not.

For 200m pounds (Sky TV plus Tan investment) have Cardiff improved significantly?

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Ask as many questions as you want, but every thread about Swansea you turn into one about Tan, City, the rebrand etc. Move on, stop you whining. It's done and is history now.

As for you change in opinions, come on it was the mother of all turn arounds. It's been mentioned before but people respected Birko, TLG, TVB etc for their stance on the rebrand, but you carried on watching the club and didn't ask for a refund whilst they were offering them. No one respects that.

Why not start a thread about Tan and the club and discuss it there, maybe then you can move on?

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

Chill out love :biggrin: I was just joking to TB, you can sign up with as many accounts as you like, it's none of my business.

As for the 'Almost like a conspiracy theorist would' comment, giving yourself away there :big grin: :hehe:

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Sorry - that reply was meant for Trublue. I am extremely chilled out because, in this "debate" the number of logical fallacies at play is beyhond calculation ;-)

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Ask as many questions as you want, but every thread about Swansea you turn into one about Tan, City, the rebrand etc. Move on, stop you whining. It's done and is history now.

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Firstly I don't turn EVERY Swansea related thread into one about Tan. So, you start off spouting some untruths to make your argument convincing. "Move on stop whining" - are you suggesting that, just because the subject has been discussed extensively that the questions I ask should stop? A badly flawed argument.

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

As for you change in opinions, come on it was the mother of all turn arounds. It's been mentioned before but people respected Birko, TLG, TVB etc for their stance on the rebrand, but you carried on watching the club and didn't ask for a refund whilst they were offering them. No one respects that.

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I asked for a refund after the Huddersfield game. Of course, I have told you this, but you continue to spin it into something else. My refund was refused - that is the simple fact. The difference between me and the other posters you have mentioned (all of whom, incidentally, I have contacted and all of whom do not take issue with my initial reaction) is that I wanted to give the club (and in particular the fan base) one chance. I went to the Huddersfield game expecting some backlash - there was a flag "We bleed blue" that was taken down. After that, it was painfully obvious that I had made the wrong choice.

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Why not start a thread about Tan and the club and discuss it there, maybe then you can move on?

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How different do you think a new thread would be? Realistically? It would be along the same lines as this one. Doesn't stop me mentioning it when I get the chance in the future. I am raising the questions politely - that's what happens in forums. Then you make another statement about "moving on". Which is, kind of, the same flawed argument you made earlier. Do we really stop asking questions because things now seem fine? Cardiff City FC should be one of the wealthiest clubs in the division - why isn't it? Did they waste money on stands, wages, admin fees etc? Why are advertising revenues and crowds down? Could these things have been avoided? Questions, questions, questions - followed by "You Jack B", "You changed your mind", "You need to move on".

If you can't answer the questions I've raised, why respond at all?

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Originally Posted by Baloo

In fairness you were asking completely different questions at first. Maybe it's just the question asking you enjoy and you've found a convenient topic.

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Of course the questions have evolved, just as the situation at Cardiff has evolved. Why would I be asking the question "How many shirts have Cardiff sold in the Far East?" when that is no longer a legitimate question. I'd be accused of not moving on if the questions remained the same :hehe:

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Would you prefer local fans as owners or foreign businessmen? The Jacks have the former despite telling us they'd never being a wealthy mans plaything, they've since become a wealthy mans plaything.

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I would prefer local ownership. But having said that, I would prefer foreign ownership with business acumen and a clear vision over a fans' group that can't agree on anything.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

I would prefer local ownership. But having said that, I would prefer foreign ownership with business acumen and a clear vision over a fans' group that can't agree on anything.

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I'm not sure why this "foreign owners" vs "local owners" is presented as the only choice. It's a little bit more complex than that, I would think.

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Originally Posted by long tom

I wonder how told him to that, as he is a yank he knows little or nothing about football (soccer to him)

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There's more football on TV here than there is in Britain. I'm guessing these guys occasionally read a book or a newspaper too. One of them already owns a club in the US. Our change to red was well documented and talked about during our season in the Premier League.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

There's more football on TV here than there is in Britain. I'm guessing these guys occasionally read a book or a newspaper too. One of them already owns a club in the US. Our change to red was well documented and talked about during our season in the Premier League.

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Don't worry about it - poster's assumptions here are always proven to be correct :hehe:.

Football may not be a "major" sport in the US (although I argue that it is) - but those who follow the sport Stateside are always knowledgeable. People usually take offence at the vocabulary they use, and use that to discredit their knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Of course the questions have evolved, just as the situation at Cardiff has evolved. Why would I be asking the question "How many shirts have Cardiff sold in the Far East?" when that is no longer a legitimate question. I'd be accused of not moving on if the questions remained the same :hehe:

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I was referring to your original questions around why was anybody bothered about the colour of shirt. This was your intinctive, natural reaction and your militant anti-rebrand stance emerged quite a bit latter. You can perhaps understand that people are suspicious about such an astonishing u-turn and wonder if it's really just a contrived position to attract attention.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

I was referring to your original questions around why was anybody bothered about the colour of shirt. This was your intinctive, natural reaction and your militant anti-rebrand stance emerged quite a bit latter. You can perhaps understand that people are suspicious about such an astonishing u-turn and wonder if it's really just a contrived position to attract attention.

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Never:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

I'm not sure why this "foreign owners" vs "local owners" is presented as the only choice. It's a little bit more complex than that, I would think.

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I just answered the question that was asked.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

I was referring to your original questions around why was anybody bothered about the colour of shirt. This was your intinctive, natural reaction and your militant anti-rebrand stance emerged quite a bit latter. You can perhaps understand that people are suspicious about such an astonishing u-turn and wonder if it's really just a contrived position to attract attention.

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That is a logical fallacy in itself.

I guess you are absorbing yourself with TruBlue's history of my rebrand stance. The fact is that my initial comments were at a time when I believed that the story of the rebrand was not true - once the story became factual, I became quite serious about the subject.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

I just answered the question that was asked.

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It's a stupid question, really. He's created a false dilemma - we both know it is far more complex than local owners v foreign owners.

There are a large number of logical fallacies at play in this thread:-

Logical fallacies at play in this thread.

1) Ad hominem - attack of the arguer instead of the argument.

2) Poisoning the Well - This is where adverse information about a target (i.e. me) is presented with the intention if discrediting everything that person says.

3) Abusive fallacy – Verbal abuse of the opponent rather than arguing about the originally proposed argument - Lawnmower started that one off here ;-)

4) argumentum ad infinitum. This is where people say an argument is no longer valid, because it has been discussed too extensively in the past. "Move on" type statements.

5) False Dilemma - the "Would you prefer local or foreign owners" question.

6) Cherry Picking - Suppressed and incomplete evidence. i.e. - you only asked for a refund when they stopped handing them out. Inferring that I knew I couldn't get a refund when I asked for one. Wrong.

7) Appeal to Motive - By questioning the motives of the proposer (i.e. me) my premise can be dismissed.

8) Straw Man fallacy - An argument based on misrepresentation of my position.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Never:thumbup:

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I agree. Never. My "militant anti-rebrand stance" emerged "quite a bit later". So, when was that? 1 year? 3 years? 6 months?

I know the answer. Quite a bit later infers that it was a number of months later (at least).

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

I agree. Never. My "militant anti-rebrand stance" emerged "quite a bit later". So, when was that? 1 year? 3 years? 6 months?
.:thumbup:I know the answer. Quite a bit later infers that it was a number of months later (at least).

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You need to take a step back and chill.It is all in the past it can not be altered it is what it is.Enjoy hopefully what could be a great season.:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by jeepster

You need to take a step back and chill.It is all in the past it can not be altered it is what it is.Enjoy hopefully what could be a great season.:thumbup:

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How is it in the past when Cardiff City FC are skint? Like I said earlier, they should be one of the wealthiest clubs in the division. Why aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

How is it in the past when Cardiff City FC are skint? Like I said earlier, they should be one of the wealthiest clubs in the division. Why aren't they?

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Because of the stupid wages paid to overated players.End of it is history.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Sorry - that reply was meant for Trublue. I am extremely chilled out because, in this "debate" the number of logical fallacies at play is beyhond calculation ;-)

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I will let you off this time then. :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

That is a logical fallacy in itself.

I guess you are absorbing yourself with TruBlue's history of my rebrand stance. The fact is that my initial comments were at a time when I believed that the story of the rebrand was not true - once the story became factual, I became quite serious about the subject.

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I read your posts myself. Those initial posts may be unfortunate for you now but they were very clear. To suggest you wrote something contrary to your views because you didn't believe you were posting about something real is a bizarre explanation to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

I asked for a refund after the Huddersfield game. Of course, I have told you this, but you continue to spin it into something else. My refund was refused - that is the simple fact. The difference between me and the other posters you have mentioned (all of whom, incidentally, I have contacted and all of whom do not take issue with my initial reaction) is that I wanted to give the club (and in particular the fan base) one chance. I went to the Huddersfield game expecting some backlash - there was a flag "We bleed blue" that was taken down. After that, it was painfully obvious that I had made the wrong choice.

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Painfully obvious, perhaps, but it didn't stop you continuing to go down the City that season, did it?

One chance?

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Originally Posted by lardy

One chance?

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Absolutely no idea what this question is. If I did know, I would answer it. I've asked a number of questions here - but instead of arguing the points raised, people are trying to discredit what I've posted since May 13th 2012 on the back of some things I posted when there was a crazy rumour flying around on May 10th. You might not like the explanation, but it was and is the truth.

Now, the questions I've asked - are they legitimate? Simple yes or no.