Would you change your brexit vote?

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Originally Posted by blue matt

I guess you are avoiding that If the government does a crap job, lets say raises tax's a massive amount, the Uk would vote them out at the next GE

we do not have that option with MEPs from other countries

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I can vote my MP out at the next GE. I can't vote out the MP for Chelsea or Amber Valley. Likewise, the people of Glasgow Central are unable to vote out my MP.

I can vote my MEP out at the next election, I can't vote out the MEP for East Anglia, nor the MEP for Paris Central. Likewise, the people of Hamburg (for example), or Glasgow (for example) are unable to vote out my MEP and vote in a German instead.

So, I'm struggling to find out why we were unable to vote for our own MPs during our time in the EU.

I'm told leavers were better informed than me as a remainer, and this issue partially led to you voting to leave - so please educate me. I honestly don't get what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

But the UK does

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You don't though. You get to vote for a single MP. You may be a Tory voter in a safe Labout seat, and so your vote is futile.

In European elections, there is at least an element of proportional representation. In reality, your vote was probably higher weighted in the European elections than it is in U.K. elections! Unless you live in one of the few marginals, the U.K. is as democratic as many single party states.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

does that include all the other regulations ? ? ? and agreements ? ? ?

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Originally Posted by lardy

EU regulation is a law, so yes. I don't know what you mean by agreement. A trade agreement?

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Matthew?

The EU has been a very convenient scapegoat for many years, certainly throughout my adult life. There's lots wrong with it, it's too full of civil servants (for want of a better phrase) and wastes money for a start, but ask people what EU regulation they're looking forward to living without and there's never an answer.

The truth is that the things that really affect our day-to-day lives, particularly how our money is spent, is mainly down to the government of the day. Whoever that will be is going to have to step up to the plate because there'll be no one else to point the finger at soon.

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Originally Posted by Kris

I can vote my MP out at the next GE. I can't vote out the MP for Chelsea or Amber Valley. Likewise, the people of Glasgow Central are unable to vote out my MP.

I can vote my MEP out at the next election, I can't vote out the MEP for East Anglia, nor the MEP for Paris Central. Likewise, the people of Hamburg (for example), or Glasgow (for example) are unable to vote out my MEP and vote in a German instead.

So, I'm struggling to find out why we were unable to vote for our own MPs during our time in the EU.

I'm told leavers were better informed than me as a remainer, and this issue partially led to you voting to leave - so please educate me. I honestly don't get what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Kris

You don't though. You get to vote for a single MP. You may be a Tory voter in a safe Labout seat, and so your vote is futile.

In European elections, there is at least an element of proportional representation. In reality, your vote was probably higher weighted in the European elections than it is in U.K. elections! Unless you live in one of the few marginals, the U.K. is as democratic as many single party states.

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the point being, the someone in the UK does, If the government implement a massively unpopular law / tax rise etc etc the UK ( or people of the UK ) can vote them out at the next GE, yes i understand that you yourself cannot vote out the MP for Chelsea or Amber Valley, but they can

you ( or anyone else in the UK ) cannot vote out the MEP for Germany / France etc etc

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Originally Posted by lardy

Matthew?

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when i say Law and Regulations,

I work with the WAHR and TWAHD, while its a regulation, a police officer is hardly going to come and arrest me for not filling out a Risk assessment and complying with the Regulation

not to mention freedom of movement of labour,child benefits for migrant workers and of course the fishermans woes

ref agreements, we make agreements with the EU over various things, didnt they tell us the motor on hoovers had to be more energy efficient, Fridge / freezers / kettles / hairdryers ( the list goes on ) had to be more efficient

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Originally Posted by blue matt

when i say Law and Regulations,

I work with the WAHR and TWAHD, while its a regulation, a police officer is hardly going to come and arrest me for not filling out a Risk assessment and complying with the Regulation

not to mention freedom of movement of labour,child benefits for migrant workers and of course the fishermans woes

ref agreements, we make agreements with the EU over various things, didnt they tell us the motor on hoovers had to be more energy efficient, Fridge / freezers / kettles / hairdryers ( the list goes on ) had to be more efficient

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I've googled WAHR and TWAHD but I still have no idea what they are. When you say they are a regulation, are they EU regulations?

Why is it a bad thing for hoover motors, or anything else, to be more energy efficient? Nobody was going to confiscate your old stuff, and the new ones will work just as well - if not better because of advances in technology. Making appliances more energy efficient will save us all money. You've named one of the better things the EU has insisted on. :shrug:

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Throughout our thorough reviews process, we consistently find that a vacuum's power rating has little impact on suction. Instead, a combination of factors, including motor and cylinder design, whether the bag or bin is full, whether the filters are regularly cleaned and the shape of the vacuum head can all affect how good a vacuum cleaner is at its job. The 1,400w AEG Ultracaptic Animal has the most powerful suction of all the vacuums we've tested to date, outperforming 2,200w machines.

A wattage rating isn't always an indicator of what's being drawn from the plug socket, either; we've seen 2,200W rated vacuums draw less than 1,100w, and 1,000w cleaners exceed their rating by up to 200w. Power draw will depend on the power setting and suction mode of a cleaner, if it has them, as well as motor wattage.

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http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-...right/page/0/2

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Originally Posted by blue matt

We have no say on the MEPs from other countries

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You don't have a say on the MP from the next county!

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Originally Posted by lardy

I've googled WAHR and TWAHD but I still have no idea what they are. When you say they are a regulation, are they EU regulations?

Why is it a bad thing for hoover motors, or anything else, to be more energy efficient? Nobody was going to confiscate your old stuff, and the new ones will work just as well - if not better because of advances in technology. Making appliances more energy efficient will save us all money. You've named one of the better things the EU has insisted on. :shrug:



http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-...right/page/0/2

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The hoover / fright etc were examples of a agreement

WAHR and TWAHD

appolgises, i often use the acronym, as i use it in work and the people i use it with of course know what it means

The Work at Height Regulations 2005
The Temporary Work at Height Directive

both part of the European Council Directive 2001/45/EC

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Originally Posted by TH63

You don't have a say on the MP from the next county!

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but a UK citizen does , this is my point

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Originally Posted by blue matt

The hoover / fright etc were examples of a agreement

WAHR and TWAHD

appolgises, i often use the acronym, as i use it in work and the people i use it with of course know what it means

The Work at Height Regulations 2005
The Temporary Work at Height Directive

both part of the European Council Directive 2001/45/EC

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I'm not really sure where you're going with this. You're just naming things - are you against them? Do you think safety at work is a bad thing? You say you wouldn't be arrested if you filled in the form wrongly but I am quite sure you'd be in trouble if you hadn't and then an employee was badly injured or died. And quite rightly, in my opinion. You perhaps don't need to fill in a form to keep people safe but unfortunately there are employers who will dangerously cut corners if they could get away with it.

So energy efficiency and safety at work. Any other ghastly intrusions from Europe that we can do away with?

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Originally Posted by blue matt

but a UK citizen does , this is my point

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It's the same situation but at different scales.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

but a UK citizen does , this is my point

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And an EU citizen does for MEP's. Do you have think it is wrong that a UK citizen can't vote out an MEP in France?

I can't think of any other way it could work.

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Originally Posted by lardy

So energy efficiency Any other ghastly intrusions from Europe that we can do away with?

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It doesnt matter what i think, as you will just argue the other side of the argument, the reason i named them was it is seen as a agreement

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

And an EU citizen does for MEP's. Do you have think it is wrong that a UK citizen can't vote out an MEP in France?

I can't think of any other way it could work.

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yes a EU citizen does, correct, my point being i would prefer the UK rules / laws / how energy efficient our hoovers / kettles to be decided by MP the UK vote in and then ultimately out, it surely isnt that hard to understand

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Originally Posted by blue matt

but a UK citizen does , this is my point

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I guess there are two layers of democracy at work here, a little like in the USA, where you have state laws and federal laws

Following your argument, it's like a Floridian complaining that he doesn't have a say on who the California senators are, but at least they're Americans.

Some might say you don't have a say on who the MEP for Madrid central is, but at least another European does.

I think the fundamental issue here, is whether you see yourself as part of the United States of Europe or not. I can totally understand how controversial that will be to many, and also agree that that's not what we signed up for.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

yes a EU citizen does, correct, my point being i would prefer the UK rules / laws / how energy efficient our hoovers / kettles to be decided by MP the UK vote in and then ultimately out, it surely isnt that hard to understand

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Personally I think the energy efficiency of Hoovers in my street should be decided by people who live in/represent my street.

Those people in Westminster have no idea what it is like to live in my street and suck up dust here, we need more powerful Hoovers.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

It doesnt matter what i think, as you will just argue the other side of the argument, the reason i named them was it is seen as a agreement

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I don't need to, you're doing a decent enough job on my behalf :hehe:

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Originally Posted by blue matt

yes a EU citizen does, correct, my point being i would prefer the UK rules / laws / how energy efficient our hoovers / kettles to be decided by MP the UK vote in and then ultimately out, it surely isnt that hard to understand

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So you're happy with energy efficiency if it's set by the UK but not if it's by Europe? Fair play, that is absolutely bonkers.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

the point being, the someone in the UK does, If the government implement a massively unpopular law / tax rise etc etc the UK ( or people of the UK ) can vote them out at the next GE, yes i understand that you yourself cannot vote out the MP for Chelsea or Amber Valley, but they can

you ( or anyone else in the UK ) cannot vote out the MEP for Germany / France etc etc

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But the Germans and French can vote out MEPs in Germany and France. Isn't every MEP elected?

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Originally Posted by Kris

But the Germans and French can vote out MEPs in Germany and France. Isn't every MEP elected?

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Yes

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Originally Posted by blue matt

when i say Law and Regulations,

I work with the WAHR and TWAHD, while its a regulation, a police officer is hardly going to come and arrest me for not filling out a Risk assessment and complying with the Regulation

not to mention freedom of movement of labour,child benefits for migrant workers and of course the fishermans woes

ref agreements, we make agreements with the EU over various things, didnt they tell us the motor on hoovers had to be more energy efficient, Fridge / freezers / kettles / hairdryers ( the list goes on ) had to be more efficient

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Child benefit to migrant workers costs the UK barely anything (I think I read it was £20m per annum). Migrant workers pay tax and NI and VAT. The UK benefits from migrant workers, so much so that reducing migration by 84000 could mean the U.K. has to borrow more per year!

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Originally Posted by TH63

Yes

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So what is Matt's point? Anyone?

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Originally Posted by Kris

So what is Matt's point? Anyone?

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As far as I can gather he's a bit pissed off that some French bloke won't let him buy a hoover.

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Originally Posted by TH63

I think the fundamental issue here, is whether you see yourself as part of the United States of Europe or not. I can totally understand how controversial that will be to many, and also agree that that's not what we signed up for.

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cheers for a sensible discussion :thumbup:

I personally do not want to be part of " United States of Europe " thats why i voted "leave" and back to the original question " Would you change your brexit vote? " No i wouldnt :thumbup:

I will leave the children to play now :wave:

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Originally Posted by blue matt

cheers for a sensible discussion :thumbup:

I personally do not want to be part of " United States of Europe " thats why i voted "leave" and back to the original question " Would you change your brexit vote? " No i wouldnt :thumbup:

I will leave the children to play now :wave:

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I think that's the crux of it for many people, and a view I can empathise with tbh.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

In the EU - it's the commission and the unelected commissioners that seems to have the powers - not the MEPs. They dont get to set EU law - they just get to vote on it. MEPs are basically puppets of the commission.

Luckily in Parliament - there is no such commission type arrangement. Parties in the EU parliament tend to just sit together depending on their various political viewpoints. Not exactly a great way to do things in my opinion.

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That's not how the EU works. The legal agenda is set by the council, drafted by the commission and voted on by parliament. Its exactly the same as the government setting the agenda, the civil service drafting legislation and parliament voting on any new law.

We don't elect our civil service yet it is respected as being non partisan and up there with the very best.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

yes a EU citizen does, correct, my point being i would prefer the UK rules / laws / how energy efficient our hoovers / kettles to be decided by MP the UK vote in and then ultimately out, it surely isnt that hard to understand

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Let me see if I've got this right.

On one hand you think a system whereby you can only vote for a politician representing your area, but you don't have a say on electing politicians from other areas, is a good thing, whilst at the same time you think the same system is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

yes a EU citizen does, correct, my point being i would prefer the UK rules / laws / how energy efficient our hoovers / kettles to be decided by MP the UK vote in and then ultimately out, it surely isnt that hard to understand

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UK law is set by parliament and not brussels. It has always been this way. Have a read about how EU directives are implemented.

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Originally Posted by TISS

Let me see if I've got this right.

On one hand you think a system whereby you can only vote for a politician representing your area, but you don't have a say on electing politicians from other areas, is a good thing, whilst at the same time you think the same system is a bad thing.

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He just wunts Britain to be about British mun

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Originally Posted by tommy31

He just wunts Britain to be about British mun

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For all the attempts at a " sensible discuss'ion ", this is what it actually comes down to.