Keith Andrews

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Originally Posted by jamieccfc

We'll never know now but that is not where I want to see bale playing Gunter needs a good luck up the ass after that performance

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Yes there was no guarantee the Austrian would have scored :shrug:

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Originally Posted by lardy

I'm not confused, whether it was 5 years or 3 years or 2 months ago, my point is that all through that time Ronaldo had played in the PL and Messi hadn't. If you've changed your mind on who is best, which I'm not saying you aren't allowed to do, then why is a different league a factor now and not then? If they had both started in La Liga and then one had since moved, then it would make more sense.




Messi's vision and passing is what puts him ahead of Ronaldo in my book. That's the thing, he's not just an eye catching dribbler. Think I'm right in saying that he has had more assists than Ronaldo in every Spanish season.

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I agree with the last paragraph completely. Messi could comfortably play as a number 4 and dictate a football game.

I agree with Guillem Balague that Ronaldo is probably the complete number 9 at the moment but as a footballer you've got to say Messi is better.

There are a lot highlight programmes on sky catch up at the moment on Ronaldo and Messi. Have a look at the one Magical Messi it's unbelievable and shows why I think Messi is untouchable.

The only reason Messi didn't score in the semi final and final of last year's champions league was because Barcelona were absolute garbage.

I watched all Barcelona's games last season and I believe they would have been 4th or 5th if it wasn't for Messi.

He rescued them time and time again. Madrid on the other hand are the best team in Europe by some distance at the moment and I believe they would win the champions league whether Ronaldo was there or not, and that's not taking anything away from Ronaldos contribution. Their strength in depth is frightening.

If I was Messi I would have signed for Citeh this season and got out now for the sake of his final few years.

Even when Barcelona were at their brilliant best with Xavi, Iniesta and co, Messi was always the man that made them incisive and was their matchwinner.

He's the best by some distance in my opinion and though everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just can't get my head around it.

Sorry Gringo but you're massively downplaying Ronaldos influence on last seasons Champions League win.

2 goals away to Bayern 1st leg QF

Hat trick in the 2nd leg

Hat trick in the 1st leg SF against Atletico, a team Real often struggle against, putting the tie out of site.

2 goals against Juve in the final, another team that rarely give goals away.

Yes Madrid do have strength in depth more than any other team in Europe but to suggest Madrid would still have beaten such teams as Bayern, Atletico and Juve without him in the manner they did with him is misguided to say the least. Definitely a case of your irrational hatred for CR7 ruling sense there. :hehe:

He scored 10 goals from QF to Final against 3 of the top teams and best defences in Europe ffs!!!

You're championing Messi for making Barca have better results against La Liga teams whilst downplaying what Ronaldo did to the best teams in Europe!!

You would NEVER see ronaldo making a challenge like that in his own box, so what he said was completely right.

He wasn't saying Bale is better or scores as much, so what's your point.

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Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86

You would NEVER see ronaldo making a challenge like that in his own box, so what he said was completely right.

He wasn't saying Bale is better or scores as much, so what's your point.

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WHY WAS RONALDO USED AS A COMPARISON?

Please give me a logical explanation and then we will go from there.

Until then if Keith Andrews is going to suggest how magnificent it was that Bale tracked back and Ronaldo wouldn't I'll raise the point of the aspects Ronaldo brings to the team that Bale doesn't.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

What's that got to do with Ronaldo?

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When was the last time Ronaldo tracked back?

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

WHY WAS RONALDO USED AS A COMPARISON?

Please give me a logical explanation and then we will go from there.

Until then if Keith Andrews is going to suggest how magnificent it was that Bale tracked back and Ronaldo wouldn't I'll raise the point of the aspects Ronaldo brings to the team that Bale doesn't.

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He was used as a comparison because Portugal, like Wales, are seen as a one man team.

Bale is far more of a team player than Ronaldo will ever be.

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

I used to respect your football knowledge Polo mate, but anyone that thinks Ronaldo is better than Messi is talking absolute nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

To say Ronaldo does it year by year, sounds like you're implying that Messi doesn't!

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What has Messi ever done at international level? No doubting his sheer class, but let's be fair. He's done it at one club during a golden era for them. Both Ronaldo and Maradona had the balls to go to other clubs and prove they were the best. Maradona dragged an average Argentina side to World Cup glory, and an average Napoli side to a title.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

What has Messi ever done at international level? No doubting his sheer class, but let's be fair. He's done it at one club during a golden era for them. Both Ronaldo and Maradona had the balls to go to other clubs and prove they were the best. Maradona dragged an average Argentina side to World Cup glory, and an average Napoli side to a title.

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To be fair, if Higuain hadn't missed a sitter then Messi would have a world cup winners medal.

As for Maradona, he's the only man stopping Messi being called the best ever in my opinion.

We're getting dangerously close to 'can he do it on a wet Tuesday in Stoke' territory...

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Each to their own mate. Messi is not the player he was imo and Ronaldo is getting better it seems.

As I said he wasn't blessed with Messis natural ability but his sheer will to win and be the best is what sets the two apart.

Messi looks to me like a footballer not enjoying his job anymore. It's a job to him where has Ronaldo is still like a little kid playing the game for the first time.

If you asked me the question 5/6 years ago I was Messi all day long but I've been converted to camp Ronaldo.

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No need for that feller, OK, he's lithe and pretty, but ..

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Originally Posted by lardy

To be fair, if Higuain hadn't missed a sitter then Messi would have a world cup winners medal.

As for Maradona, he's the only man stopping Messi being called the best ever in my opinion.

We're getting dangerously close to 'can he do it on a wet Tuesday in Stoke' territory...

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As if little old Lionel will struggle to get past shawcross and co

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

WHY WAS RONALDO USED AS A COMPARISON?

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Because they play the same position, both are attacking players, both are superstars in the game, both play for Real Madrid, both play for small/weak countries, both get compared regularly. It was completely reasonable to compare him to Ronaldo!

Bale has carried Madrid in Ronaldo's absence at times, and probably would've been more prominent in the team if ronaldo hadn't been at the club.

A few people have said how much they hate him but appreciate he's a good player.

Yes he's a bit arrogant but considering how good he is and what he's achieved it's understandable to an extent.

He always turns up for his country and some of his charitable stuff has been fantastic. He's done some really kind gestures from what I've read.

I like him, phenomenal player.

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Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86

Because they play the same position, both are attacking players, both are superstars in the game, both play for Real Madrid, both play for small/weak countries, both get compared regularly. It was completely reasonable to compare him to Ronaldo!

Bale has carried Madrid in Ronaldo's absence at times, and probably would've been more prominent in the team if ronaldo hadn't been at the club.

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Asensio?

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Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86

Because they play the same position, both are attacking players, both are superstars in the game, both play for Real Madrid, both play for small/weak countries, both get compared regularly. It was completely reasonable to compare him to Ronaldo!

Bale has carried Madrid in Ronaldo's absence at times, and probably would've been more prominent in the team if ronaldo hadn't been at the club.

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Well that takes me back to my original point then. If you're going to compare because "they are similar players, playing for smaller nations" then compare everything.

"Well done great tracking back by Bale you wouldn't see Ronaldo doing that for Portugal".

No, you'd normally see him up the other end banging the goals in carrying the team more than Bale does for Wales!!! Did Andrews miss the fact Ronaldo carried them to winning a major tournament just 14 months ago?!?'

Bales international record is excellent, Ronaldos is even better. As much as Bale is brilliant and I am proud that he's Welsh he's not in the same league as Ronaldo (and Messi who has worked his way into the thread).

As for Bale carrying Madrid in Ronaldos absence that's a load of bollox. Bale has been more carried than the carrier for Madrid. He's had 1 outstanding season in 4. Ronaldo is outstanding year after year.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

He was used as a comparison because Portugal, like Wales, are seen as a one man team.

Bale is far more of a team player than Ronaldo will ever be.

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Are we? Since when? I thought Aaron Ramsey was more important than Bale to this team? Well that certainly was the case on this forum in Euro 2016.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

When was the last time Ronaldo tracked back?

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What does it matter? He's at the other end smashing the goals in.

When was the last time David Marshall scored?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

What has Messi ever done at international level? No doubting his sheer class, but let's be fair. He's done it at one club during a golden era for them. Both Ronaldo and Maradona had the balls to go to other clubs and prove they were the best. Maradona dragged an average Argentina side to World Cup glory, and an average Napoli side to a title.

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You can only judge Messi vs Ronaldo in World Cup tournaments cos the qualification in South America doesn't feature teams like Gibraltar, San Marino etc.

Messi has a better record in World Cups than Ronaldo when it comes to goals and assists etc though there's not a great deal in it.

Argentina have often been in turmoil when Messi has been in these tournaments and in one world cup they were managed by an off his tits Diego Maradona!

Portugal were also in a bit of a mess in the last world cup and Ronaldo was poor too.

I didn't think Ronaldo was particularly brilliant in the Euros as their win was based mainly on defensive qualities, however I do take Polo's point that Ronaldo was unbelievable during the business end of last season's champions league and it would be churlish for me to suggest otherwise.

I'm not disputing by the way whether Ronaldo is a great player. What I'm suggesting is that Messi is an absolute magician and nobody in today's game is as good as him. Ronaldo is 2nd in my opinion but a distant second.

In response to Polo I would argue that Messi is not on the decline in any way and last season he was incredible. People who think he's still playing in a dominant Barcelona team are severely mistaken.

The front 3 have very little service like they did in the day of Iniesta (prime) and Xavi. He got them out of nail week after week last season and will need to again this season.

Real Madrid are leagues ahead at the moment and I truly believe that they would cope very well without Ronaldo, whereas if you took Messi out of Barcelona now they wouldn't even qualify for the champions league.

Watch "Magical Messi" and the amount of goals where your jaw will drop by the sheer brilliance of Messi is incredible.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

What does it matter? He's at the other end smashing the goals in.

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He's not if the ball is in his own box and no one else is there to put in a last ditch tackle and stop a goal against his side.

If nothing else this thread has shown what a fine pundit Keith Andrews is.

Keep on scattering the pearls, Keith. Some of us appreciate your insight and wisdom. :hehe:

Some Ronaldo UEFA Champs records to chew on

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/news/newsid=2386386.html

Keith Andrews will have to provide the backtracking stats though :hehe:

http://messivsronaldo.net/records/

Some mind boggling stats for both players the likes of which I doubt we will see again for a very long time, if ever

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

You can only judge Messi vs Ronaldo in World Cup tournaments cos the qualification in South America doesn't feature teams like Gibraltar, San Marino etc.

Messi has a better record in World Cups than Ronaldo when it comes to goals and assists etc though there's not a great deal in it.

Argentina have often been in turmoil when Messi has been in these tournaments and in one world cup they were managed by an off his tits Diego Maradona!

Portugal were also in a bit of a mess in the last world cup and Ronaldo was poor too.

I didn't think Ronaldo was particularly brilliant in the Euros as their win was based mainly on defensive qualities, however I do take Polo's point that Ronaldo was unbelievable during the business end of last season's champions league and it would be churlish for me to suggest otherwise.

I'm not disputing by the way whether Ronaldo is a great player. What I'm suggesting is that Messi is an absolute magician and nobody in today's game is as good as him. Ronaldo is 2nd in my opinion but a distant second.

In response to Polo I would argue that Messi is not on the decline in any way and last season he was incredible. People who think he's still playing in a dominant Barcelona team are severely mistaken.

The front 3 have very little service like they did in the day of Iniesta (prime) and Xavi. He got them out of nail week after week last season and will need to again this season.

Real Madrid are leagues ahead at the moment and I truly believe that they would cope very well without Ronaldo, whereas if you took Messi out of Barcelona now they wouldn't even qualify for the champions league.

Watch "Magical Messi" and the amount of goals where your jaw will drop by the sheer brilliance of Messi is incredible.

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👍

https://youtu.be/oWEqpEPy5SU

Hmmmmmm

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

What does it matter? He's at the other end smashing the goals in.

When was the last time David Marshall scored?

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So you'd expect a goalkeeper to be scoring as well as saving, hmm Polo?

That's spurious logic there.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

So you'd expect a goalkeeper to be scoring as well as saving, hmm Polo?

That's spurious logic there.

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As spurious as placing more importance on a strikers defensive actions than his goals

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

As spurious as placing more importance on a strikers defensive actions than his goals

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Who has done that?

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Originally Posted by Nick

Who has done that?

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Keith Andrews and ccfc for life

You might have too but I take anything you say about football with a pinch of salt

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

As spurious as placing more importance on a strikers defensive actions than his goals

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Who is placing "more importance on a strikers* defensive actions than his goals"? I certainly haven't... sounds like you're trying to bastardise people's points to "win" meaningless arguments on t'internet. Yay you.

The only "striker" for whom their defensive actions are more important than their goals is Kenwyne Jones, because the last few years he's been useful for defending set pieces due to being shit up front... a trend he continues in MLS.

The issue that seems to fly straight over your head is the fact Bale's tracking back last night is indicative of his mindset. It's all about the team, making challenges like that to help the team. Ronaldo is all about Ronaldo. Team win, he doesn't score? Sulky little bastard because he can't get the credit.

* He's not a striker...

EDIT:

Which of those two would I prefer in a squad? Bale. Not because he's Welsh, not because he's from Cardiff but because he works his socks off for the team. As we're seeing under Warnock, team morale is pretty f*cking important. Ronaldo may have all the talent in the world, if he's going to throw a strop because a teammate scored instead of him... eh, f*ck him.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Keith Andrews and ccfc for life

You might have too but I take anything you say about football with a pinch of salt

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Ok, missed that, can you guide me to where Andrews and CCFC for life have Said a strikers defensive actions are more important than his goals.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Nick

Ok, missed that, can you guide me to where Andrews and CCFC for life have Said a strikers defensive actions are more important than his goals.

Thanks

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No

You've got eyes and fingers do it yourself

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

No

You've got eyes and fingers do it yourself

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The standard response of someone who can't provide that "evidence".

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

No

You've got eyes and fingers do it yourself

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So you can't then, obviously. Never mind.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Who is placing "more importance on a strikers* defensive actions than his goals"? I certainly haven't... sounds like you're trying to bastardise people's points to "win" meaningless arguments on t'internet. Yay you.

The only "striker" for whom their defensive actions are more important than their goals is Kenwyne Jones, because the last few years he's been useful for defending set pieces due to being shit up front... a trend he continues in MLS.

The issue that seems to fly straight over your head is the fact Bale's tracking back last night is indicative of his mindset. It's all about the team, making challenges like that to help the team. Ronaldo is all about Ronaldo. Team win, he doesn't score? Sulky little bastard because he can't get the credit.

* He's not a striker...

EDIT:

Which of those two would I prefer in a squad? Bale. Not because he's Welsh, not because he's from Cardiff but because he works his socks off for the team. As we're seeing under Warnock, team morale is pretty f*cking important. Ronaldo may have all the talent in the world, if he's going to throw a strop because a teammate scored instead of him... eh, f*ck him.

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Yeah all Ronaldos goals are for himself, no benefit to the team. :hehe:

Those 10 goals he scored in the Champions League finals stages last season were not for the team. No use to the team at all :hehe:

Why score all those international goals, win the Euros, and all those trophies when you can get all plaudits for tracking back eh. :shrug;

Imagine how much more he could have won if he realised tracking back was more important than goals :shrug:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Yeah all Ronaldos goals are for himself, no benefit to the team. :hehe:

Those 10 goals he scored in the Champions a League finals stages were not for the team. No use to the team. :hehe:

Why score all those international goals, win the Euros, and all those trophies when you can get all plaudits for tracking back eh. :shrug;

Imagine how much more he could have won if he realised tracking back was more important than goals :shrug:

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You do realise your aim with that incredibly poor level of sarcasm is backfiring, right?

It starts from a false premise you introduced to bolster your own poor argument, fails to address any of the pertinent and salient points others have raised... the smileys are just the icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

You do realise your aim with that incredibly poor level of sarcasm is backfiring, right?

It starts from a false premise you introduced to bolster your own poor argument, fails to address any of the pertinent and salient points others have raised...

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Oh the irony.

You're arguments on the matter are as weak they come

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Oh the irony.

You're arguments on the matter are as weak they come

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As weak as your spelling?

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

As weak as your spelling?

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Yes. Weaker.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Yes. Weaker.

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Sorry, can you clarify? You're saying they are equivalent and then not equivalent in the space of two words. Succinct I suppose.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Sorry, can you clarify? You're saying they are equivalent and then not equivalent in the space of two words. Succinct I suppose.

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Weaker

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Weaker

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Thank you, Polo. All opinions are of course welcome.

I fear we'll have to agree to disagree.