Is Labour Anti-Semitic?

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

People go round being socialists without bothering to find out what that actually means and study the origins of socialism , otherwise they'd know that socialism is implicitly anti Semitic.

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You're not even pretending any more are you?

Ronnie Bales? Wales Bird? Gluey?

Whatever version is playing today it is the same old twisted bullshit and the same dog-eared playbook. Sad.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

You're not even pretending any more are you?

Ronnie Bales? Wales Bird? Gluey?

Whatever version is playing today it is the same old twisted bullshit and the same dog-eared playbook. Sad.

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Unfortunately, by repeatedly insisting upon this wrong conclusion on your part , you're discrediting any other judgements or opinions you come up with.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Go on then, give us the definition of socialism and then tell us why you think Hitler falls into that ideological bracket.

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No. If I thought there was any chance whatsoever that you'd take any notice I'd take the time to explain it to you, but you wouldn't , would you?

I suggest you read 'Das Kapital" and "The Communist Manifesto", then compare the policies which they describe with those of the
" National Socialist Party" ,( the clues in the name), or Nazi Party.

You might also look up the Speech Hitler made in Switzerland in which he said, " For the avoidance of doubt , I am, always have been ,and always will be a socialist ".

I mean, I don't care that much really. There are unfortunately a LOT of people who have unalterable beliefs on this and other issues, and I know from past experience that you can't change their minds with facts or objective sources.

What we saw in the rise of the Nazis was unfettered socialism and yet the ideology was somehow redeemed in the public mind by rebranding them as somehow a bit like the Conservative Party or Nigel Farage.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

No. If I thought there was any chance whatsoever that you'd take any notice I'd take the time to explain it to you, but you wouldn't , would you?

I suggest you read 'Das Kapital" and "The Communist Manifesto", then compare the policies which they describe with those of the
" National Socialist Party" ,( the clues in the name), or Nazi Party.

You might also look up the Speech Hitler made in Switzerland in which he said, " For the avoidance of doubt , I am, always have been ,and always will be a socialist ".

I mean, I don't care that much really. There are unfortunately a LOT of people who have unalterable beliefs on this and other issues, and I know from past experience that you can't change their minds with facts or objective sources.

What we saw in the rise of the Nazis was unfettered socialism and yet the ideology was somehow redeemed in the public mind by rebranding them as somehow a bit like the Conservative Party or Nigel Farage.

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Look, you won't listen so I am not going to waste my time explaining but here it is anyway. I have always been and will always be a sex god with a 10 inch cock. Just for the avoidance of doubt.

Come on, give me some things Hitler did whilst in power that made him a socialist. I'll start, just so you don't feel silly standing up in front of the class. I don't think he was a socialist due to the absolutely massive historically unparalleled program of privatisation that took place in part to fund the war but also because they simply didn't believe in state ownership of anything beyond the military (they would fit in well in parts of the conservative party 2019 in this respect).

What do you have for me?

Think RB is referring to the horseshoe effect is and us probaly right .

The horseshoe theory, also known as the horseshoe effect, in political science claims that the far-left and far-right are more similar to each other in essentials than either is to the political center.[note 1]

It was formulated by the French post-postmodernist philosopher Jean-Pierre Faye in 1996,[2] but similar ideas existed previously.[3] Faye believed that the extremes of the political spectrum both represented totalitarianism of different kinds; this meant that the political spectrum should not be described as a linear bar with the two ends representing the far-left and right being ideologically the furthest apart from each other, but as a horseshoe in which the two ends are closer to each other than to the center.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

It's the inverse of the Trump witch hunt. Same story, diffent actors.

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More suspensions and a lot more competitors and a lot of evidence such as internal leaked e memos ,emails ,social media , and this one looks like going to court .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Think RB is referring to the horseshoe effect is and us probaly right .

The horseshoe theory, also known as the horseshoe effect, in political science claims that the far-left and far-right are more similar to each other in essentials than either is to the political center.[note 1]

It was formulated by the French post-postmodernist philosopher Jean-Pierre Faye in 1996,[2] but similar ideas existed previously.[3] Faye believed that the extremes of the political spectrum both represented totalitarianism of different kinds; this meant that the political spectrum should not be described as a linear bar with the two ends representing the far-left and right being ideologically the furthest apart from each other, but as a horseshoe in which the two ends are closer to each other than to the center.

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That's very interesting because I used to go round saying something very similar in the 70s, and I think it's true really, although for what it's worth I'd also say that Hitler was a socialist in his own right. I say " for what it's worth " because I don't personally take any party political position and people usually go down this line as a means of hammering the Labour Party .

To my mind, anyone who thinks there's anything real or positive coming out of either of the main parties is going to be disappointed , so I'm reluctant to take sides between them.

I started off by saying that socialism is implicitly anti Semitic , which it is, and we got drawn into Hitlers political ideas. Again ,this is clear to an objective observer , but the other side of the coin I tossed in the first paragraph is that people who want to argue a glass eye to sleep on the issue are doing that to promote the Labour Party .

Your intelligent and non confrontational contribution is appreciated though because there seems to be a bit of negative and overly combat active crap sometimes. I'm delighted that people form their own opinions ,even if they don't coincide with mine, but some people seem to get angry if you put a contrary point of view.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Look, you won't listen so I am not going to waste my time explaining but here it is anyway. I have always been and will always be a sex god with a 10 inch cock. Just for the avoidance of doubt.

Come on, give me some things Hitler did whilst in power that made him a socialist. I'll start, just so you don't feel silly standing up in front of the class. I don't think he was a socialist due to the absolutely massive historically unparalleled program of privatisation that took place in part to fund the war but also because they simply didn't believe in state ownership of anything beyond the military (they would fit in well in parts of the conservative party 2019 in this respect).

What do you have for me?

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So, what are you saying ? Hitler was joking or lying or something ?

I've had very similar debates about this before and they never reach agreement, but I'm game for a laugh and I'll post something of the nature you've suggested tomorrow. I've sat here like a silly bugger reading this site and posting till 3am , so I'd better leave it for tonight, but I'll come back to it .

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the antisemitism row, I think this is going to be very damaging for Jeremy Corbyn.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exclude-racism

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

So, what are you saying ? Hitler was joking or lying or something ?

I've had very similar debates about this before and they never reach agreement, but I'm game for a laugh and I'll post something of the nature you've suggested tomorrow. I've sat here like a silly bugger reading this site and posting till 3am , so I'd better leave it for tonight, but I'll come back to it .

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Look forward to it.

If Trump was on the telly tomorrow and said 'just for the avoidance of doubt, I am a socialist'. Would you believe him?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the antisemitism row, I think this is going to be very damaging for Jeremy Corbyn.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exclude-racism

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I wonder whether they paid for that themselves.

What Watson appears to be advocating is a system whereby people are guilty until proven innocent if the evidence 'is irrefutable', presumably he thinks he should be the person who makes that call.

Reality is they are just looking for a way to boot people out without due process.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the antisemitism row, I think this is going to be very damaging for Jeremy Corbyn.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exclude-racism

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It definitely will damage Corbyn - which is clearly the intention.

This feels like the third or fourth time since he was elected that there has been a co-ordinated public pile-on from his parliamentary and media opponents - using Brexit and/or anti-semitism allegations as the issue of choice. The Chicken Coup was the most orchestrated but there have been several others - most recently led by Tom Watson or Tribune.

As I have said in other posts, I am not a Labour Party member and I am not very impressed by Corbyn's party leadership skills - I don't think he ever wanted the job, didn't expect to win first time, and is way out of his comfort zone - but most of the attacks seem to me to be dishonest and cynical. There is maybe a better chance of a General Election now before the end of October than was thought a few months ago and this might be the last chance for the so-called centrists in Labour (Labour right may be more accurate) to change the leader before that might happen.

Best I can describe this issue (not asking anyone to agree with me , as both parties are awful) modern politics is awful :

The difference being, Corbyn and his inner circle are anti-Semitic and have facilitated / encouraged/ not discouraged , anti-Semitism within the Labour party and allowed it to fester and get worse ,and even attack it's own, isolating huge portions of its party mechanism.

May has not facilitated and encouraged/ not discouraged Islamophobia in the Conservative party.

I am sure some Islamophobia would be found in both parties.

Labour appears to prefer the Muslim vote .

Muslims can t times appear anti semitic.

Bit like Brexit you could mirror this across society .

The trick is, how do you deal and manage it , or are seen to deal with or manage it ,or want too.

Is it better to have or take a side ,when looking for votes.

Goverment and leadership is about managing and dealing with subject matters that relate to all of society .

For the many ,not the few , will stick in my mind for a very long time to come .

Yes media plays on it , but you have to feed it ,to let it grow and become what it is now .

I don't know much of the inner circle (non elected people) so I can't comment on them.

Would someone who hates Jewish be a sponsor for a motion such as this?

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/40500

It didn't happen obviously because brown was on his way out and the incoming conservative party was obsessed with immigration numbers and saw that issue as their primary vote winner.

Corbyn is a poor leader and probably has quite entrenched views but the idea that he is personally anti Semitic or racist just doesn't stack up.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

So, what are you saying ? Hitler was joking or lying or something ?

I've had very similar debates about this before and they never reach agreement, but I'm game for a laugh and I'll post something of the nature you've suggested tomorrow. I've sat here like a silly bugger reading this site and posting till 3am , so I'd better leave it for tonight, but I'll come back to it .

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When is the debate going to start. My popcorn has gone stale.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

When is the debate going to start. My popcorn has gone stale.

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There's no debate to be had. Ronnies told you the answer. Hitler was a socialist because the clue is in the name of the party. Same reason that North Korea and East Germany are/were democratic.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Best I can describe this issue (not asking anyone to agree with me , as both parties are awful) modern politics is awful :

The difference being, Corbyn and his inner circle are anti-Semitic and have facilitated / encouraged/ not discouraged , anti-Semitism within the Labour party and allowed it to fester and get worse ,and even attack it's own, isolating huge portions of its party mechanism.

May has not facilitated and encouraged/ not discouraged Islamophobia in the Conservative party.

I am sure some Islamophobia would be found in both parties.

Labour appears to prefer the Muslim vote .

Muslims can t times appear anti semitic.

Bit like Brexit you could mirror this across society .

The trick is, how do you deal and manage it , or are seen to deal with or manage it ,or want too.

Is it better to have or take a side ,when looking for votes.

Goverment and leadership is about managing and dealing with subject matters that relate to all of society .

For the many ,not the few , will stick in my mind for a very long time to come .

Yes media plays on it , but you have to feed it ,to let it grow and become what it is now .

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For someone throwing around anti-semitism allegations you seem very comfortable peddling that particular racist trope.

It has underpinned a lot of the political and media attacks on Corbyn and Labour - crudely that Muslims are anti-semites and there are a lot of Muslim members of the Labour Party, and Muslim activists in the international solidarity campaign with Palestinians, so Corbyn Labour panders to their inherent prejudice and bigotry. It usually goes unchallenged.

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Originally Posted by lardy

There's no debate to be had. Ronnies told you the answer. Hitler was a socialist because the clue is in the name of the party. Same reason that North Korea and East Germany are/were democratic.

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I'm upping sticks and moving to the Congo.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I'm upping sticks and moving to the Congo.

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No change then

From the day of the arguably ill-prepared independence of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the tensions between the powerful leaders of the political elite, such as Joseph Kasa Vubu, Patrice Lumumba, Moise Tshombe, Joseph Mobutu and others, jeopardize the political stability of the new state. From Tshombe's secession of the Katanga, to the assassination of Lumumba, to the two coups d'état of Mobutu, the country has known periods of true nationwide peace, but virtually no period of genuine democratic rule.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

No change then

From the day of the arguably ill-prepared independence of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the tensions between the powerful leaders of the political elite, such as Joseph Kasa Vubu, Patrice Lumumba, Moise Tshombe, Joseph Mobutu and others, jeopardize the political stability of the new state. From Tshombe's secession of the Katanga, to the assassination of Lumumba, to the two coups d'état of Mobutu, the country has known periods of true nationwide peace, but virtually no period of genuine democratic rule.

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But they said they were democratic, are you accusing them of lying? Ronnie won't have it.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

But they said they were democratic, are you accusing them of lying? Ronnie won't have it.

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The leadership feels Democratic and thats what counts .

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Originally Posted by jon1959

For someone throwing around anti-semitism allegations you seem very comfortable peddling that particular racist trope.

It has underpinned a lot of the political and media attacks on Corbyn and Labour - crudely that Muslims are anti-semites and there are a lot of Muslim members of the Labour Party, and Muslim activists in the international solidarity campaign with Palestinians, so Corbyn Labour panders to their inherent prejudice and bigotry. It usually goes unchallenged.

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I'm not throwing anti antisemitism around I think that's been done very well enough by the perpetrators of such comments , and they are a matter of record and investigation , one can either say its happening, or one can say it is not .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I'm not throwing anti antisemitism around I think that's been done very well enough by the perpetrators of such comments , and they are a matter of record and investigation , one can either say its happening, or one can say it is not .

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Eh? Anti anti-semitism? You claimed Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite. You perpetrated that comment. Margaret Hodge obviously agrees with you - or at least she says she does. I think you are both totally wrong. But you are clearly happy to label him a racist. At the same time you label Muslims in general as anti-semitic (or appearing to be - whatever that means). It is a racist trope (or maybe an ethno-religious one). Doesn't sound good from anyone, but especially not from someone calling out others as racist!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Eh? Anti anti-semitism? You claimed Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite. You perpetrated that comment. Margaret Hodge obviously agrees with you - or at least she says she does. I think you are both totally wrong. But you are clearly happy to label him a racist. At the same time you label Muslims in general as anti-semitic (or appearing to be - whatever that means). It is a racist trope (or maybe an ethno-religious one). Doesn't sound good from anyone, but especially not from someone calling out others as racist!

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Yeh its all fine .