Another mass shooting

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

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I've been deliberately trying not to get involved in as many political threads now the football has started, but I can't believe the way this thread has developed.

America has been seen as the leader of the so called free world for maybe a century. Let's bear that in mind, when people are reduced to putting up charts which show that there are more gun deaths per hundred thousand in nineteen countries than there are in America.

Is it a shock to see any of those nineteen countries where they are in that chart? Not to me it isn't and maybe that's why the media don't make an issue of it. The notion that being as low as twentieth in that table can, in some way, be used as argument to support America is completely risible when you consider the way it is portrayed and seen as an enlightened society which others aspire to, but fail to match - which of the nineteen above the USA could such a claim be made about?

Twenty nine people in Dayton and El Paso (including a sister of one of the gunmen) who were alive and well on Friday are now dead because America cannot see what has been obvious for decades. When the founding fathers talked about the right to bear arms, they, surely, could not have thought that almost two hundred and fifty years later, their words would be used by those who seek to defend a situation whereby far more powerful weapons than they ever saw are aimed and fired at defenceless Americans who are unlucky enough to be too close by at the time.

The fact that incidents like those seen at the weekend are going on, and have been going on for far too long, in a country with the reputation and influence that America has should be a national humiliation for them and anyone who tries to argue otherwise can only be doing so through stubborn political dogma.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns.

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If you think that is evidence for the claim he made then we might as well not bother.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

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Says a lot that you think the USA should be comparing itself to El Salvador, Columbia and Afghanistan.

This is like dismissing knife crime increase in the UK and London in particular because 'well, look at Khayelitsha'.

USA has a problem with people shooting each other and themselves and most sane countries would have taken steps to fix it.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

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You get your knickers in a twist and your head explodes when there’s a sniff of anti Semitic behaviour in the Labour Party but you’re insinuating that commenting on ridiculous gun laws is unbalanced argument ?

You come across as an odd chap fair play .

What is remarkable about that list of countries is the number of them in the Americas. 18/20, Greenland isn't far either?

What could be the reason for that?

USA firearms spilling out into neighbouring countries?
Usa drugs market driving criminality (can't see why that would be different than elsewhere)?
USA destabilising other regional governments?

Difficult for Trump to deal with this while he's very busy trying to sort out London's knife crime.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I'd be keen to know who would win in a battle between a self trained militia armed with assault rifles or a tyrannical government blowing them up from drones they can't even see.

Reality has moved way beyond the purpose of the second amendment that all it does now is make sure more people get murdered than in comparable countries.

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That's a big diversion in a thread that is supposed to be about the tragic loss of innocent lives. You asked for a citation in a previous post, and now you are assuming that the military would follow the orders of Chuck & Nancy? Just like a previous poster who assured us that the shooters were right wing, you seem keen to twist these events so that they fit with your own political ideology. We don't even know the facts yet, but you are already suggesting a solution that is based on a hypothetical event which bears no relation to reality.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

That's a big diversion in a thread that is supposed to be about the tragic loss of innocent lives. You asked for a citation in a previous post, and now you are assuming that the military would follow the orders of Chuck & Nancy? Just like a previous poster who assured us that the shooters were right wing, you seem keen to twist these events so that they fit with your own political ideology. We don't even know the facts yet, but you are already suggesting a solution that is based on a hypothetical event which bears no relation to reality.

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You have missed the point completely or wanted to inject some faux outrage for no reason. As you know, the reason frequently given to explain why individuals need to own high powered guns is to protect themselves against a potential future tyrannical government. I think the world has moved on though and this isn't valid anymore.

Says someone is twisting events to suit a political ideology.

Also says Chuck and Nancy are the government.

This guy :hehe: :hehe:

Let's see if lifeonmars denounces it as political point scoring. My guess is, because it was Wales Bales, he won't...

I believe you get the kind of society you deserve. If, apparently, the majority of the American population are happy for everyone to own a gun for their own protection (against whom - it depends who you ask it seems?) then all it takes is a tiny minority of that population with some warped mentality to cause mayhem. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing (Edmund Burke).

I had a cousin in Pennsylvania whose husband kept a rifle at home. A perfectly normal bloke, he used it for hunting but told me he was perfectly prepared to use it to defend his home. I remember visiting them just after the famous Tony Martin case (the guy in Norwich who shot two burglars in his house) and he was gobsmacked when I told him that this guy had been arrested and jailed for killing the burglar, something which he (cousin) would have done without hesitation!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I believe you get the kind of society you deserve. If, apparently, the majority of the American population are happy for everyone to own a gun for their own protection (against whom - it depends who you ask it seems?) then all it takes is a tiny minority of that population with some warped mentality to cause mayhem. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing (Edmund Burke).

I had a cousin in Pennsylvania whose husband kept a rifle at home. A perfectly normal bloke, he used it for hunting but told me he was perfectly prepared to use it to defend his home. I remember visiting them just after the famous Tony Martin case (the guy in Norwich who shot two burglars in his house) and he was gobsmacked when I told him that this guy had been arrested and jailed for killing the burglar, something which he (cousin) would have done without hesitation!

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I met a guy in Texas who shot dead a Mexican who had broken into his home (and got away with it scot-free) and a militia man who was convinced that the UN's intention was to take over the world and that he would be ready for them. He also thought that European leaders were communist. And who was out Prime Minister at the time? Margaret Thatcher. To think that such people have access to guns is truly frightening.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I'd be keen to know who would win in a battle between a self trained militia armed with assault rifles or a tyrannical government blowing them up from drones they can't even see.

Reality has moved way beyond the purpose of the second amendment that all it does now is make sure more people get murdered than in comparable countries.

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Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

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Absolutely bizarre response. Eric Cartman's point is that the constitution is badly out of date, and your response is to cite conflicts from before its existence!

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

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Where does he assume that us forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners?
Who are these foreigners ?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Citation for that figure? Would be keen to work read the study that made that prediction.

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I made the prediction myself, but I'm quite certain that anyone who knew much about it would agree. There are far more guns than people in the USA, people have them in their attics and garages in remote areas and criminals who have access to firearms aren't going to give them up either.
A Japanese General ruled out a land invasion of the USA because " there'd be a gun behind every hedgerow".

You'd be surprised how much stuff exists in the real world which has yet to be substantiated by a pencil necked theorist doing a study on it.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Absolutely bizarre response. Eric Cartman's point is that the constitution is badly out of date, and your response is to cite conflicts from before its existence!

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I disagree that the Constitution is " out of date ". So do millions of Americans, and they'll fight for it. If Americans ever want to change their constitution or laws they'll do that themselves. I mentioned Trenton and 1776 because that was the last time foreign slaves tried to enforce the will of their masters on the American people by force .

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where does he assume that us forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners?
Who are these foreigners ?

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Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

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Combining that comment with this: "you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners", is Eric the foreigner you're talking about and are you saying that a Cardiff City messageboard user is in such a position of power that he could order US troops to fire on citizens?

This thread is ****ing bizarre

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

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When did he say that he wants patriots killed by drones they can't even see?

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Originally Posted by City123

This thread is ****ing bizarre

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WB gets involved, and the thread dies. Happens every single time.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

WB gets involved, and the thread dies. Happens every single time.

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Just pointing out the absurdity of what people are saying.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Also says Chuck and Nancy are the government.

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i never said they are the government matey, but hypothetically speaking they are the only ones who would order a drone attack on gun owners if they were in power!

IMO, there is an underground civil war going on in Merica at the moment, I understand that its their 2nd amendment right but don't think i could ever want, or agree with it, mass shootings/killings have not suddenly become a norm in the land of the FREE!, but i cannot remember mass shootings politicised in the way that they are currently, there was also an incident in Chicago which hasn't received as much attention, prolly because only 7 got injured, but it was a multiple incident. I note this morning that Cloudfire have pulled their hosting for 8chan, but another hosting Co. will take it on, if there is a buck to be made!!!. It's a sick world at the moment and we end up arguing on here who is the sickest, if a human wants it that bad enough they will find a way, Thomas Hamilton and Michael Ryan managed to pull it off in a country with relatively strict gun ownership laws, I do think that our strict gun laws have contributed to the UK having a low incident count, that low, i could remember these two names without having to bing. Knife crime? now that's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Knife crime? now that's a different story.

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And acid attacks.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

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On the say so of foreigners? Which part of tyrannical government is hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2

You get your knickers in a twist and your head explodes when there’s a sniff of anti Semitic behaviour in the Labour Party but you’re insinuating that commenting on ridiculous gun laws is unbalanced argument ?

You come across as an odd chap fair play .

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This thread is littered with some of the oddest characters on this board.

I think if you stood many of them in a room and gave me a sticker with their board name on it I’d get the majority of the odd people correct.... obviously some may get more than one sticker placed on them 😂😂😂😂

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Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton

This thread is littered with some of the oddest characters on this board.

I think if you stood many of them in a room and gave me a sticker with their board name on it I’d get the majority of the odd people correct.... obviously some may get more than one sticker placed on them ��������

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You'd have to wear a trench coat to accommodate all your stickers :biggrin:

I was convinced this thread couldn't get more bonkers when I posted my, completely ignored, contribution to it this morning - not a bit of it!

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

On the say so of foreigners? Which part of tyrannical government is hard to understand?

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Oh ,these matters are all quite complicated and hard to understand. That's why it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to try and tackle them .
A tyrannical government may or may not be operating under Foriegn influence . In the days of Trenton they were and in my opinion and that of many well informed people , the current threat comes largely from abroad in the form of politicians who's allegiance is not to the USA or the USC, and who could conceivably form a government .

By the way, I think it's probably unlikely that you'll come up with anything that's hard for me to understand and I wouldn't ordinarily point that out but like some of your little gang you seem to be trying to occupy the intellectual high ground , and that's frankly preposterous.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Oh ,these matters are all quite complicated and hard to understand. That's why it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to try and tackle them .

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Considering you can't use punctuation correctly, I'd stop giving it the whole I'm better than you schtick. It doesn't suit you.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I was convinced this thread couldn't get more bonkers when I posted my, completely ignored, contribution to it this morning - not a bit of it!

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You should be flattered your post got ignored

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You'd have to wear a trench coat to accommodate all your stickers :biggrin:

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I’d easily pick both (or more) of you out

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Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton

You should be flattered your post got ignored

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Yes, I was thinking that :hehe:.

How aren’t we all in agreement with this topic :shrug:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I was convinced this thread couldn't get more bonkers when I posted my, completely ignored, contribution to it this morning - not a bit of it!

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I have an excuse for today (but only today):thumbup: a Brain scan shortly, will either give me closure after 9 years, or will keep the doubt renting a space in my head.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I met a guy in Texas who shot dead a Mexican who had broken into his home (and got away with it scot-free) and a militia man who was convinced that the UN's intention was to take over the world and that he would be ready for them. He also thought that European leaders were communist. And who was out Prime Minister at the time? Margaret Thatcher. To think that such people have access to guns is truly frightening.

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I don't know if it's still the case now, as I haven't been there for at least 15 years, but I used to find most Americans were very insular/parochial in their attitude, with very few having travelled outside the USA. Hence plenty of scope for some pretty wacky ideas about foreign governments/foreigners. The exceptions were the people I used to meet on business trips who were working for the same multinational pharma company as me - they had a much more informed global outlook.

Most "ordinary" Americans who we met on our holiday travels were very polite and helpful, a strange paradox really. We had three very long road trip-type holidays over there so we were frequently well away from the usual touristy places. Most people had no idea where Wales was, if indeed they had heard of it at all!

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Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86

How aren’t we all in agreement with this topic :shrug:

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👍

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

I have an excuse for today (but only today):thumbup: a Brain scan shortly, will either give me closure after 9 years, or will keep the doubt renting a space in my head.

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Good luck mate

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

I have an excuse for today (but only today):thumbup: a Brain scan shortly, will either give me closure after 9 years, or will keep the doubt renting a space in my head.

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Very sorry to hear that.

Fingers crossed - I hope all goes well.