Warnock getting the best out the team/squad again..

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Ajayi signed on loan for us in March 2015 and then permanently at the end of that season. He went out on loan to Wimbledon and Crewe in 2015/16. When Warnock was appointed as Cardiff manager in October 2016, Ajayi had not played a single minute for the first team. He went out on loan to Rotherham in January 2017 and agreed a permanent deal with them in March of that year.

I realise that you are not a fan of Warnock, but to criticise him for this almost three years later is ridiculous.

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So you think that what Ajayi has done at Rotherham and West Brom counts for nothing? If nothing else, it calls into question our manager's judgement on a player who it would not have cost much in wages for us to keep.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Maybe, it's a brutal way to look at things, but all Neil Warnock has done is spend an awful lot of the club's money to get us a few places up the Championship table. I accept that getting us promoted was a bigger achievement than getting us relegated was a black mark against him, but, nonetheless, he has largely got away Scot free when it comes to our relegation.

For me, he has been a good first team manager up to a point, but he's done nothing as far as the levels below that go and that's why I hope no one at the club gives serious thought to the suggestion that he be given some sort of Director of Football role when he steps down from the manager's job.

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The entire club was unprepared, and as the senior football man at the club I feel the blame lies mostly with him and that he should be held accountable. He (publicly at least) declared he was satisfied with the squad when it was pretty obvious to everyone else that we were doomed before we started. I don't understand why the owner, the board and the fans seem happy to let this slide.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Ajayi signed on loan for us in March 2015 and then permanently at the end of that season. He went out on loan to Wimbledon and Crewe in 2015/16. When Warnock was appointed as Cardiff manager in October 2016, Ajayi had not played a single minute for the first team. He went out on loan to Rotherham in January 2017 and agreed a permanent deal with them in March of that year.

I realise that you are not a fan of Warnock, but to criticise him for this almost three years later is ridiculous.

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Why is it not OK to criticize the manager that let him leave the club?

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

If you'd rather watch us play pretty football and do nothing, rather than get promoted, be my guest. I know what the majority of Brentford fans would choose.

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Surely there's a balance though? I actually think I'd rather watch an entertaining team with a plan for the future finish in the play offs than watch a team shit house it's way to second who signs players while not even thinking 6 months down the line.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Ajayi signed on loan for us in March 2015 and then permanently at the end of that season. He went out on loan to Wimbledon and Crewe in 2015/16. When Warnock was appointed as Cardiff manager in October 2016, Ajayi had not played a single minute for the first team. He went out on loan to Rotherham in January 2017 and agreed a permanent deal with them in March of that year.

I realise that you are not a fan of Warnock, but to criticise him for this almost three years later is ridiculous.

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Isn’t it the responsibility of the incoming manager to look at all players and give them all a chance?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Surely there's a balance though? I actually think I'd rather watch an entertaining team with a plan for the future finish in the play offs than watch a team shit house it's way to second who signs players while not even thinking 6 months down the line.

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That's not what the question was. It was would I take 38 1-0 wins, or playing attractive football and finishing 12th.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So you think that what Ajayi has done at Rotherham and West Brom counts for nothing? If nothing else, it calls into question our manager's judgement on a player who it would not have cost much in wages for us to keep.

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Not unless you think Warnock can see the future. What had Ajayi done at the time when he decided to sign for Rotherham that suggested it was a mistake for Cardiff not to have made more of an effort to keep him?

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Why is it not OK to criticize the manager that let him leave the club?

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Because the criticism is based on information that wasn't available when the decision was actually made.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Not unless you think Warnock can see the future. What had Ajayi done at the time when he decided to sign for Rotherham that suggested it was a mistake for Cardiff not to have made more of an effort to keep him?

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Did he give him a chance? Did he asses him in any way when he arrived?

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Did he give him a chance? Did he asses him in any way when he arrived?

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Was Ajayi better than Manga, Bamba or Morrison? Probably not, which is the long and short of it.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Was Ajayi better than Manga, Bamba or Morrison? Probably not, which is the long and short of it.

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Is he now though? There was a point when Aaron Ramsey wasn’t as good as Gavin Rae, I don’t think that’s an excuse to dump someone.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

That's not what the question was. It was would I take 38 1-0 wins, or playing attractive football and finishing 12th.

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I think everyone would take winning every game over not but that’s not how it works is it.

I’d rather watch better football than shite football, neither guarantees you results but one is still enjoyable even when not winning.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Was Ajayi better than Manga, Bamba or Morrison? Probably not, which is the long and short of it.

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Oh I forgot we don’t need replacements. I’d take him over Connolly for example, who even though has done a job for us in the past should never be taking up the squad place if a younger player is available to step up.
So the long and short of it it was not.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Oh I forgot we don’t need replacements. I’d take him over Connolly for example, who even though has done a job for us in the past should never be taking up the squad place if a younger player is available to step up.
So the long and short of it it was not.

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He's a young player, who needed game time. He was never going to play, and Connolly played a handful of games since 2017.

Good luck to Ajayi, and I wish him well but he's hardly Baresi.

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Originally Posted by rudy gestede

I think everyone would take winning every game over not but that’s not how it works is it.

I’d rather watch better football than shite football, neither guarantees you results but one is still enjoyable even when not winning.

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Of course it isn't how it works but that was the question, and I answered it.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

He's a young player, who needed game time. He was never going to play, and Connolly played a handful of games since 2017.

Good luck to Ajayi, and I wish him well but he's hardly Baresi.

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Don’t think anyone said he was Baresi, I’ll never understand those type of replies.

Saying he needed game time is fine, was he looking for a move to get more game time though? If he was fair enough, but it looks to me like he was let go without having been looked at properly.
“Well keep conno he’ll be good around the dressing room, **** that young lad off we don’t develop players here” or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

He's a young player, who needed game time. He was never going to play, and Connolly played a handful of games since 2017.

Good luck to Ajayi, and I wish him well but he's hardly Baresi.

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Plenty of other managers seem to be able to give young players game time. I don’t see why the options are play him every game or bin him.

Does it matter if he’s not Baresi? Aiden Flint isn’t hardly Ajayi.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Don’t think anyone said he was Baresi, I’ll never understand those type of replies.

Saying he needed game time is fine, was he looking for a move to get more game time though? If he was fair enough, but it looks to me like he was let go without having been looked at properly.
“Well keep conno he’ll be good around the dressing room, **** that young lad off we don’t develop players here” or something similar.

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Ajayi was in the last year of his deal under Warnock and went to Rotherham on loan to get games. He decided to stay there, and fair play to him for doing so. He took a gamble going to League One and it has paid off. It's the same argument as Kadeem Harris, who probably thought I'd rather move on than wait for a chance here, it isn't as simple as saying, we let Harris go for free and got in Whyte.

There are plenty of reasons to have a pop at Warnock but Semi Ajayi seems a strange one.

Where was he in the pecking order at the time?
Behind Morrison, Manga, Bamba and probably Connolly and that’s where we all would’ve placed him.
No one on here was kicking off about us getting rid of him at the time I bet.

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Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker

Where was he in the pecking order at the time?
Behind Morrison, Manga, Bamba and probably Connolly and that’s where we all would’ve placed him.
No one on here was kicking off about us getting rid of him at the time I bet.

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I actually had hopes he’d make it into the first team set up.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Ajayi was in the last year of his deal under Warnock and went to Rotherham on loan to get games. He decided to stay there, and fair play to him for doing so. He took a gamble going to League One and it has paid off. It's the same argument as Kadeem Harris, who probably thought I'd rather move on than wait for a chance here, it isn't as simple as saying, we let Harris go for free and got in Whyte.

There are plenty of reasons to have a pop at Warnock but Semi Ajayi seems a strange one.

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The discussion started on how it would have been shrewd for us to keep a player with potential. It evolved into Warnock not looking at what he’s got on his books before spending money, going for experience and someone who was very unlikely to play (and older) over someone younger with a slightly better chance of playing.

Harris has 474728 chances, he didn’t cut it and probably wouldn’t have here, he’s taken his chance well with different payers and a different playing style at his new club and well done to the lad.

I liked him as it goes. But he was given a fair crack under more than one manager.

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Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker

Where was he in the pecking order at the time?
Behind Morrison, Manga, Bamba and probably Connolly and that’s where we all would’ve placed him.
No one on here was kicking off about us getting rid of him at the time I bet.

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That's why we aren't football managers. Football managers should probably realise potentially and integrate it into the first team slowly rather than letting a potentially good player go for free.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

The discussion started on how it would have been shrewd for us to keep a player with potential. It evolved into Warnock not looking at what he’s got on his books before spending money, going for experience and someone who was very unlikely to play (and older) over someone younger with a slightly better chance of playing.

Harris has 474728 chances, he didn’t cut it and probably wouldn’t have here, he’s taken his chance well with different payers and a different playing style at his new club and well done to the lad.

I liked him as it goes. But he was given a fair crack under more than one manager.

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You've got to keep Manga, Bamba and Morrison happy. Ajayi had a year at League One to get ready for the Championship and he got dropped by Rotherham at times because of the mistakes he was making. He had potential but he needed a lot of games, which he wasn't going to get here. Ajayi wasn't the first and won't be the last talented player to get released, and we've benefitted from more than our fair share as well.

Wonder what Chelsea fans make of letting de Bruyne & Salah go ?

We all know one thing for certain....when we play WBA, Ajeyi and Zohore are bound to score.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

The discussion started on how it would have been shrewd for us to keep a player with potential. It evolved into Warnock not looking at what he’s got on his books before spending money, going for experience and someone who was very unlikely to play (and older) over someone younger with a slightly better chance of playing.

Harris has 474728 chances, he didn’t cut it and probably wouldn’t have here, he’s taken his chance well with different payers and a different playing style at his new club and well done to the lad.

I liked him as it goes. But he was given a fair crack under more than one manager.

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What was the longest run of games Harris was given? Don't expect you to know, but from memory it wasn't alot, was it? I always thought that he performed pretty well when i saw him, in my opinion his crossing from the bye line was better than any of the other wide players, he could vary it a bit and he'd look up and dink balls in or sit them up. He was also ok at beating players from a standing start, quick feet and he didn't need alot of backlift. I'm certainly not mourning his departure but i think that his lack of athleticism went against him. Hoilett is a better footballer than any of our wide players, the most intelligent on the ball. Warnock doesn't seem to want that in his team, raw pace and a direct apporoach is what he seems to like now with a lack of quality at the crucial moment. Harris and Hoilett aren't going to do a fullback for pace over thirty yards, they are both good at creating that half a yard of space without having to go past the fullback. The way Warnock plays is that he likes his wingers to drop back and pick the ball up in a deep position then just get on their bike. Harris wasn't about that and neither is hoilett although both (in my opinion) possess more quality and intelligence that Whyte, Mendez and Murphy.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

You've got to keep Manga, Bamba and Morrison happy. Ajayi had a year at League One to get ready for the Championship and he got dropped by Rotherham at times because of the mistakes he was making. He had potential but he needed a lot of games, which he wasn't going to get here. Ajayi wasn't the first and won't be the last talented player to get released, and we've benefitted from more than our fair share as well.

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Given the choice of a younger player with potential and Connolly what one would you keep? Who mentioned not keeping the other 3 happy?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

What was the longest run of games Harris was given? Don't expect you to know, but from memory it wasn't alot, was it? I always thought that he performed pretty well when i saw him, in my opinion his crossing from the bye line was better than any of the other wide players, he could vary it a bit and he'd look up and dink balls in or sit them up. He was also ok at beating players from a standing start, quick feet and he didn't need alot of backlift. I'm certainly not mourning his departure but i think that his lack of athleticism went against him. Hoilett is a better footballer than any of our wide players, the most intelligent on the ball. Warnock doesn't seem to want that in his team, raw pace and a direct apporoach is what he seems to like now with a lack of quality at the crucial moment. Harris and Hoilett aren't going to do a fullback for pace over thirty yards, they are both good at creating that half a yard of space without having to go past the fullback. The way Warnock plays is that he likes his wingers to drop back and pick the ball up in a deep position then just get on their bike. Harris wasn't about that and neither is hoilett although both (in my opinion) possess more quality and intelligence that Whyte, Mendez and Murphy.

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Apologies but I have t got time to read all that, but I did skim the top bit and not sure why you’re replying to me mate as I said I liked Harris who I thought had time to make a mark with 3 managers, agree I’d like to have seen him have a longer run. He’s made a sideward step now and is making a mark for his new team.

Interesting debate about Ajayi, both sides making good points. I don't really want to stick up for Warnock here but Pedro (and others) are probably right, we were spoilt for choice in that position and that led to Ajayi being released. While Zohore was out of the picture too when Warnock arrived, there was an urgency to knock him into shape because we only had Lambert waddling around up front with Fred and Chamakh as back up. If our problems had been at the back then Warnock might have seen Ajayi as a priority and fast-tracked him through instead.

As it was, he was never going to get the run of games here that he got at Rotherham. The dreamy errors that Pedro talks about seem, finally, to have gone from his game with experience and he appears to be the solid centre half at WBA for now. While reluctantly defending Warnock on this, I assume the option was there for him to go in for a Championship-ready Ajayi once he knew Manga was leaving. 5 years younger than Flint and a third of the price, time will tell whether that was a chance missed. I'll be interested to hear the opinions on Ajayi when we play WBA in a couple of weeks.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Apologies but I have t got time to read all that, but I did skim the top bit and not sure why you’re replying to me mate as I said I liked Harris who I thought had time to make a mark with 3 managers, agree I’d like to have seen him have a longer run. He’s made a sideward step now and is making a mark for his new team.

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I replied to you because you had an opinion on Harris, i wasn't having a go at you. I then went on to give my opinion on why Warnock may have shifted him, i'm not sticking up for him or countering your opinion :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Given the choice of a younger player with potential and Connolly what one would you keep? Who mentioned not keeping the other 3 happy?

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Connolly hardly played. That's the point.

I brought Ajayi up because I read about Flint being a "very shrewd" signing. Personally, I don't see how the signing of any 30 year old British centreback who has never played in the Premier League for a fee which could rise to £6 million could ever qualify as "very shrewd", but that's by the by here.

Currently, there's a twenty five year old centreback playing for a side that is above us in the table who it appears has improved leaps and bounds since we let him go for peanuts just two years ago and yet, apparently, we are being asked to believe that this is some sort of fluke whereby it's unfair to ask questions about why we let him go.

Let's not forget either that we signed another centreback in the summer who Neil Warnock was saying last week can be at the club for a decade - does our manager realise that Curtis Nelson will be 36 then? Nelson appears to me to be a "one for the future" type signing, yet he's older than Ajayi and, on the face of it, appears to be a worse player.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Currently, there's a twenty five year old centreback playing for a side that is above us in the table who it appears has improved leaps and bounds since we let him go for peanuts just two years ago and yet, apparently, we are being asked to believe that this is some sort of fluke whereby it's unfair to ask questions about why we let him go.

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Ajayi is the only player we have released since Warnock became manager that you could argue would be an asset to the current squad, isn't he?

If Rhys Healey plays well for MK Dons over the next couple of years and then a Championship club decides to sign him, would that mean it was a bad decision for us to let him go this summer?

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

If Rhys Healey plays well for MK Dons over the next couple of years and then a Championship club decides to sign him, would that mean it was a bad decision for us to let him go this summer?

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No. Because it won’t happen.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I brought Ajayi up because I read about Flint being a "very shrewd" signing. Personally, I don't see how the signing of any 30 year old British centreback who has never played in the Premier League for a fee which could rise to £6 million could ever qualify as "very shrewd", but that's by the by here.

Currently, there's a twenty five year old centreback playing for a side that is above us in the table who it appears has improved leaps and bounds since we let him go for peanuts just two years ago and yet, apparently, we are being asked to believe that this is some sort of fluke whereby it's unfair to ask questions about why we let him go.

Let's not forget either that we signed another centreback in the summer who Neil Warnock was saying last week can be at the club for a decade - does our manager realise that Curtis Nelson will be 36 then? Nelson appears to me to be a "one for the future" type signing, yet he's older than Ajayi and, on the face of it, appears to be a worse player.

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I agree with most of that but I'm not sure how we were meant to bring Ajayi through to the level he's at now. He played over a hundred games for Rotherham, even if he'd been a Warnock type centre half how many times would he have played ahead of Morrison, Bamba or Manga over the past couple of seasons (or Gunnarsson in central midfield)? He was unlucky with his loan spells here; he suffered a head injury at Wimbledon, Crewe couldn't afford to keep him longer than three months and then Trollope thought he'd need him for the first team here so he missed out on a loan move at the start of that season.

He settled in well at Rotherham but his contract only had months to go here by then. Why would Warnock want to keep him if he didn't figure in his plans and even if he saw potential would Tan have sanctioned a long contract extension so we could keep sending him out on loan for another two years? Why would Ajayi want to sign a new one here if he wasn't going to play anyway? Maybe we got a percentage of the sell on fee by letting him go a couple of months early but other than that I'm not sure what else we could've done. Jeopardise promotion by playing him ahead of better players in the hope he came good?

It was a shame he went, I enjoyed watching him play. My worry at the time was that a new manager might come in within a year or so and want that kind of player but as Warnock ended up staying for another three years that's irrelevant now. If the next manager wants to play out from the back he won't be grateful for what Warnock's left him but it's hard to be too critical of decisions that led to a promotion.

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Originally Posted by rudy gestede

Is he now though? There was a point when Aaron Ramsey wasn’t as good as Gavin Rae, I don’t think that’s an excuse to dump someone.

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:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

That's not what the question was. It was would I take 38 1-0 wins, or playing attractive football and finishing 12th.

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You invented the attractive football / 12th bit. Don’t think I said that.

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Originally Posted by Loramski

I agree with most of that but I'm not sure how we were meant to bring Ajayi through to the level he's at now. He played over a hundred games for Rotherham, even if he'd been a Warnock type centre half how many times would he have played ahead of Morrison, Bamba or Manga over the past couple of seasons (or Gunnarsson in central midfield)? He was unlucky with his loan spells here; he suffered a head injury at Wimbledon, Crewe couldn't afford to keep him longer than three months and then Trollope thought he'd need him for the first team here so he missed out on a loan move at the start of that season.

He settled in well at Rotherham but his contract only had months to go here by then. Why would Warnock want to keep him if he didn't figure in his plans and even if he saw potential would Tan have sanctioned a long contract extension so we could keep sending him out on loan for another two years? Why would Ajayi want to sign a new one here if he wasn't going to play anyway? Maybe we got a percentage of the sell on fee by letting him go a couple of months early but other than that I'm not sure what else we could've done. Jeopardise promotion by playing him ahead of better players in the hope he came good?

It was a shame he went, I enjoyed watching him play. My worry at the time was that a new manager might come in within a year or so and want that kind of player but as Warnock ended up staying for another three years that's irrelevant now. If the next manager wants to play out from the back he won't be grateful for what Warnock's left him but it's hard to be too critical of decisions that led to a promotion.

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It seems to me that because it has stopped happening at Cardiff, people have forgotten what sometimes happens when a younger player gets given a chance in the first team. Joe Ralls was given games back in 2011 in the early rounds of the League Cup and did enough to persuade Malky Mackay that he could feature in the Championship - he was picked in starting line up for the First Leg of the Palace Semi Final as an 18 year old. Ajayi, like so many others since then at Cardiff, never got that chance.

There's also the fact that Ajayi won the Championship player of the month award in March while playing as a defensive midfielder for Rotherham, but, at the heart of this is the simple question as to why a decision to get rid of a player for nothing, whose career has gone from strength to strength since he left us, should just be ignored when making an assessment of our manager?

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Ajayi is the only player we have released since Warnock became manager that you could argue would be an asset to the current squad, isn't he?

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Not given it a great deal of thought, but I can't think of anyone other than Kadeem Harris who that would apply to.