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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
Dear RonnieB,
Genuine question... Do you think Corbyn was being anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist or none of the above when he said "there are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big. In terms of money and influence, they are a very powerful lobby. There are other very powerful foreign lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices"?
Well I'd think it was very typical of his inability / refusal to see Jewish people as full members of a nation.
You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values, well in this quote he's describing the American Jewish Lobby as "another FOREIGN lobby" isn't he ?
Of course, they're Americans who happen to be Jewish, but to him they're Jews so they're foreign in some way. Just the same as when he tells Jews in this country that they don't understand "our" British values.
He sticks a bit in about apparent links with Israel, but if his apologists here are right, not all Jews are Zionists , yet according to him they're all foreign .
All joking aside, you can see from his language that however much he tries to claim it's something about Zionism or the country of Israel , it's really not .
See, what worries me is when instead of saying " oh yeah, actually so and so isn't right - we'd better think about this creeping in" , people start trying to twist the facts and justify it. I'm surprised to be honest that we've seen that happen right here, but we have I'm afraid and it's got to be challenged because it really becomes dangerous if people don't call it out for what it is.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Yes
Fair enough. Although, next time you want to condemn the allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party, just remember that you admitted to believing the anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews having lots of money and power/influence. Don't go being a hypocrite, now :thumbup:
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Well I'd think it was very typical of his inability / refusal to see Jewish people as full members of a nation.
You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values, well in this quote he's describing the American Jewish Lobby as "another FOREIGN lobby" isn't he ?
Of course, they're Americans who happen to be Jewish, but to him they're Jews so they're foreign in some way. Just the same as when he tells Jews in this country that they don't understand "our" British values.
He sticks a bit in about apparent links with Israel, but if his apologists here are right, not all Jews are Zionists , yet according to him they're all foreign .
All joking aside, you can see from his language that however much he tries to claim it's something about Zionism or the country of Israel , it's really not .
See, what worries me is when instead of saying " oh yeah, actually so and so isn't right - we'd better think about this creeping in" , people start trying to twist the facts and justify it. I'm surprised to be honest that we've seen that happen right here, but we have I'm afraid and it's got to be challenged because it really becomes dangerous if people don't call it out for what it is.
Sorry, I've just realised that it was the "great man" Nigel Farage who those quotes are attributed to. They were widely condemned by the Jewish community and by the CAA:
https://antisemitism.uk/caa-demands-...ican-politics/
He was also condemned for perpetuating the same tropes that LoM has just done https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ni...heories-502474
I'm sure you'll join me in condemning the massive, racist c**t and his role in the rise of anti-Semitism we've been seeing.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
There are plenty of Jewish cab drivers too though.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
I don't agree that Nigel is anti Semitic, but I'll give it some thought and look into what he said.
My initial feeling is that he's talking about something else, which is a different subject.
Look, if some people are doing something wrong , ( and I make no comment either way), they don't get out of it because they're Jewish. That's not the same thing as automatically vilifying people BECAUSE they're Jewish.
You're right though, that if he's displaying some kind of anti semitism then I'd condemn it completely.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
I don't agree that Nigel is anti Semitic, but I'll give it some thought and look into what he said.
My initial feeling is that he's talking about something else, which is a different subject.
Look, if some people are doing something wrong , ( and I make no comment either way), they don't get out of it because they're Jewish. That's not the same thing as automatically vilifying people BECAUSE they're Jewish.
You're right though, that if he's displaying some kind of anti semitism then I'd condemn it completely.
Jewish group walks away from Labour - Labour is anti-Semitic.
Jewish group calls Nigel Farage's comments anti-Semitic - I'll have to look into it.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
I'm off to bed now - got an early start tomorrow.
G'night, RonnieB. Don't go labouring too hard to find a way out of your hole.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values
If you are referring to the quote I think you are then this is a disingenuous representation of what was said.
You don't have to sensationalise everything, I think we probably all agree Corbyn crossed a line that day.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
If you are referring to the quote I think you are then this is a disingenuous representation of what was said.
You don't have to sensationalise everything, I think we probably all agree Corbyn crossed a line that day.
I heard it once on R4 whilst driving and that was a while back. If I got it wrong I apologise but I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous - that was my recollection. What did he actually say then ?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
Jewish group walks away from Labour - Labour is anti-Semitic.
Jewish group calls Nigel Farage's comments anti-Semitic - I'll have to look into it.
No, this thing of using a serious thing like anti semitism for political point scoring is wrong.
You posted one thing about Nigel Farage and I said I'd look into it, but you can't possibly equate that with voluminous acts and statements over decades by some labour people.
PLEASE don't use such language as labouring hard or people buried in holes on this subject. I just hope it's not Freudian .
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
And there we have it , success, or envy , you add it all up its a dislike of those values , if you look at history certain folk having always been envious of the virtues of sucess , if you consider that people throught out the ages have disliked the Jew for its abiliy to be wealthy or a sucess, through hard work and entrepreneurial skills .
Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.
The USA has been at the forefront of capitalist growth and strength as a nation .
All of those traits are indeed disliked and envied by left wing socialists , its not a new phenomenon.
However to think in 2019 after all the horrendous attrocities the Jew has been subject too, its bewlidering to think a modern society with its so called tolerance and inclusion is still talking about this very matter.
Even worse a major political party is subject to an investigation by a well respected independent trusted body such as the equality and human rights commission , who don't take on enquiries lightly , is equally bewildering , even its parties deputy has accepted it exists ,
and has called it out , proves this is not just a few nutters .
There's a lot of denial going on and it saddens me as a past Labour voter that it exists in any shape or form in a party that I thought was well above that .
The only other political movement the EHRC have investigated is the BNP ??
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
I heard it once on R4 whilst driving and that was a while back. If I got it wrong I apologise but I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous - that was my recollection. What did he actually say then ?
I am not going to give my own equally wrong version of events.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ts-2013-speech
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.
Keep on telling yourself that.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/...press-release/
Some highlights:
Quote:
More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence.
Quote:
The investigation covered the period from the start of the protests until 31 December 2018. 189 Palestinians were killed during the demonstrations inside this period. The Commission found that Israeli Security Forces killed 183 of these protesters with live ammunition. Thirty-five of these fatalities were children, while three were clearly marked paramedics, and two were clearly marked journalists.
Quote:
Unless undertaken lawfully in self-defence, intentionally shooting a civilian not directly participating in hostilities is a war crime
Quote:
The Commission took note of the Israeli claim that the protests by the separation fence masked “terror activities” by Palestinian armed groups. The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims. Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns.
Quote:
The Commission found that some members of the Higher National Committee organising the protests, which includes Hamas representatives, encouraged or defended demonstrators’ use of indiscriminate incendiary kites and balloons, causing fear among civilians and significant damage to property in southern Israel. The Commission concluded that Hamas, as the de facto authority in Gaza, failed to prevent these acts.
It is still going on although nobody cares anymore - https://mondoweiss.net/2019/10/43-ch...march-in-gaza/
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Not much difference is there ?
Point being that he's implying that Jews aren't English - perhaps more correctly revealing his own subconscious attitude towards Jews.
Look, he's a nutter and an idiot, we know that , and he probably meant no harm, but to me the worrying thing is that some people - even here - want to justify it instead of saying " hey, that's a bit out of order Corby !"
This is how it can start you see. They're so fanatical about their tribal politics that their defence of their "leader " is more important than rational thinking or human decency , and before we know where we are it's a serious problem.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
No, this thing of using a serious thing like anti semitism for political point scoring is wrong.
You posted one thing about Nigel Farage and I said I'd look into it, but you can't possibly equate that with voluminous acts and statements over decades by some labour people.
PLEASE don't use such language as labouring hard or people buried in holes on this subject. I just hope it's not Freudian .
Who is "political point scoring"? I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy you're showing. When you thought it was Corbyn who made those comments you had an opinion. When you discovered that it was actually Farage who made them, suddenly it's "I think he's actually talking about something else" and "I'll have to look into what he said". It's not as if Farage doesn't have a long, disgusting history of racist behaviour, is it?
As for the "language" that I used. Seriously?! You're pretending to be offended by me using a pun on the name of the party that you so greatly oppose to mock you because there's the most tenuous link ever with the word 'labour' and Jews? You're really trying to divert attention away from your massive balls-up aren't you? (Should I not say "balls-up" as Jews are circumcised and the foreskin is located near the testicles?)
Did you look into Farage's anti-Semitic comments? (Not sure what that would entail). Are the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism wrong about him?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
And there we have it , success, or envy , you add it all up its a dislike of those values , if you look at history certain folk having always been envious of the virtues of sucess , if you consider that people throught out the ages have disliked the Jew for its abiliy to be wealthy or a sucess, through hard work and entrepreneurial skills .
Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.
The USA has been at the forefront of capitalist growth and strength as a nation .
All of those traits are indeed disliked and envied by left wing socialists , its not a new phenomenon.
However to think in 2019 after all the horrendous attrocities the Jew has been subject too, its bewlidering to think a modern society with its so called tolerance and inclusion is still talking about this very matter.
Even worse a major political party is subject to an investigation by a well respected independent trusted body such as the equality and human rights commission , who don't take on enquiries lightly , is equally bewildering , even its parties deputy has accepted it exists ,
and has called it out , proves this is not just a few nutters .
There's a lot of denial going on and it saddens me as a past Labour voter that it exists in any shape or form in a party that I thought was well above that .
The only other political movement the EHRC have investigated is the BNP ??
You've just said "the Jew" an incredible amount of times to describe the Jewish community. Once again, referring to Jews (plural) as "the Jew" is widely regarded to be anti-Semitic. It's how Hitler referred to them to dehumanise them.
Are you sure that you're not anti-Semitic LoM? You've stated that Jews living in New York have lots of money and influence (what's known as 'Economic Anti-Semitism') and now you're calling the Jewish community "The Jew".
Maybe the EHRC should investigate you?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
Who is "political point scoring"? I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy you're showing. When you thought it was Corbyn who made those comments you had an opinion. When you discovered that it was actually Farage who made them, suddenly it's "I think he's actually talking about something else" and "I'll have to look into what he said". It's not as if Farage doesn't have a long, disgusting history of racist behaviour, is it?
As for the "language" that I used. Seriously?! You're pretending to be offended by me using a pun on the name of the party that you so greatly oppose to mock you because there's the most tenuous link ever with the word 'labour' and Jews? You're really trying to divert attention away from your massive balls-up aren't you? (Should I not say "balls-up" as Jews are circumcised and the foreskin is located near the testicles?)
Did you look into Farage's anti-Semitic comments? (Not sure what that would entail). Are the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism wrong about him?
I didn't at any point think Corbyn said that. You posted it and it clearly referred to Nigel Farage.
I said I'll look into it because I want to see who these people are who have objected and why. I'm already aware of the many organisations and individuals who've objected to Corbyn.
We're on to circumcision now are we ?
Is this what you know of Jewish people ?
Again, why should I be surprised that the people here who gang up on minorities to silence opinion are the same ones who are happy to gang up on Jews ?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
I think the general consensus of the left here is that anti Zionism / anti semitism is okay. If this reflects the attitudes of the left generally then I think people will take this into account in voting during the forthcoming election.
I know that Rabbis and other Jewish leaders were already warning everyone not to vote labour and I don't blame them on the basis of what we've seen here. What's more significant in numbers is that I don't think the general public will ignore the danger of having an anti Semite running the country.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
I think the general consensus of the left here is that anti Zionism / anti semitism is okay. If this reflects the attitudes of the left generally then I think people will take this into account in voting during the forthcoming election.
I know that Rabbis and other Jewish leaders were already warning everyone not to vote labour and I don't blame them on the basis of what we've seen here. What's more significant in numbers is that I don't think the general public will ignore the danger of having an anti Semite running the country.
Not all, maybe he is the wrong kind of rabbi...
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/l...green-1.490882
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Not much difference is there ?
Point being that he's implying that Jews aren't English - perhaps more correctly revealing his own subconscious attitude towards Jews.
Look, he's a nutter and an idiot, we know that , and he probably meant no harm, but to me the worrying thing is that some people - even here - want to justify it instead of saying " hey, that's a bit out of order Corby !"
This is how it can start you see. They're so fanatical about their tribal politics that their defence of their "leader " is more important than rational thinking or human decency , and before we know where we are it's a serious problem.
Well you said he described all Jews as not understanding British culture and values, he wasnt describing all British Jews and he wasn't referring to all culture and values. But other than that, I guess it is exactly the same :rolleyes:
What you are doing (extreme reading between the lines to imply what other people are thinking) is no different to people saying anybody against free movement is a racist.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Well, you may say that Eric, and you may quote a liberal Rabbi, but the test will be how Jews vote.
That will be real, not just an idea. It's one thing to argue the toss on a message board and it's another to convince Jewish people they're wrong to be suspicious of labour or persuade them to vote for what many of them see as a very racist party which I must tell you many of them privately compare with the Nazis in their early stages.
You wonder why they migrate to Israel with their assets after they've seen one holocaust justified by what they ( rightly or wrongly) regard as German socialists and then you wonder why they defend themselves fiercely when another group who openly say they'd like to kill all Jews attack them there. Well, I don't wonder.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Well, you may say that Eric, and you may quote a liberal Rabbi, but the test will be how Jews vote.
That will be real, not just an idea. It's one thing to argue the toss on a message board and it's another to convince Jewish people they're wrong to be suspicious of labour or persuade them to vote for what many of them see as a very racist party which I must tell you many of them privately compare with the Nazis in their early stages.
You wonder why they migrate to Israel with their assets after they've seen one holocaust justified by what they ( rightly or wrongly) regard as German socialists and then you wonder why they defend themselves fiercely when another group who openly say they'd like to kill all Jews attack them there. Well, I don't wonder.
See, now you are trying to guess what I think. You aren't very good at it, just stop.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Well, you may say that Eric, and you may quote a liberal Rabbi, but the test will be how Jews vote.
That will be real, not just an idea. It's one thing to argue the toss on a message board and it's another to convince Jewish people they're wrong to be suspicious of labour or persuade them to vote for what many of them see as a very racist party which I must tell you many of them privately compare with the Nazis in their early stages.
You wonder why they migrate to Israel with their assets after they've seen one holocaust justified by what they ( rightly or wrongly) regard as German socialists and then you wonder why they defend themselves fiercely when another group who openly say they'd like to kill all Jews attack them there. Well, I don't wonder.
As a Jewish person how will you vote Phil?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
Everyone is successful in their own way. What us socialists object to is the iniquity of unequal wealth distribution, status and power.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
You've just said "the Jew" an incredible amount of times to describe the Jewish community. Once again, referring to Jews (plural) as "the Jew" is widely regarded to be anti-Semitic. It's how Hitler referred to them to dehumanise them.
Are you sure that you're not anti-Semitic LoM? You've stated that Jews living in New York have lots of money and influence (what's known as 'Economic Anti-Semitism') and now you're calling the Jewish community "The Jew".
Maybe the EHRC should investigate you?
Perhaps my grammar was mius placed (but hey I guess you know that ,so good point score )
Your repy sums it up really no real concern just make some barbed personal comnent .
Its pityful and shameful this is going on in a major political party , being in denial is very tough or are they .
You might want to study some of the EHRC cases and why they take them up , you will discover they dont do it lightly or without just cause.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
See, now you are trying to guess what I think. You aren't very good at it, just stop.
What did I say that suggested what you thought ?
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Everyone is successful in their own way. What us socialists object to is the iniquity of unequal wealth distribution, status and power.
If you're any good and you work hard you'll do okay. You've just admitted that you're jealous of success , so maybe you should have made more effort. If success is one of the reasons for your feelings toward Jews maybe you should consider that the treatment they've received is hardly privileged.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
What did I say that suggested what you thought ?
To clarify that Eric, you're the one lefty here that I think definitely isn't an anti Semite , so I hope I didn't give the impression that I included you with those who've shown their true colours as bigots.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
What did I say that suggested what you thought ?
This bit
Quote:
You wonder why they migrate to Israel with their assets after they've seen one holocaust justified by what they ( rightly or wrongly) regard as German socialists and then you wonder why they defend themselves fiercely when another group who openly say they'd like to kill all Jews attack them there. Well, I don't wonder.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
This bit
Ronnie has a point , if I was an Israeli citizen knowing everyone around me dislikes me or what I am , and what our forebears were and suffered so for centries ,I think I'd be a hard nosed bastard .
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
If you're any good and you work hard you'll do okay. You've just admitted that you're jealous of success , so maybe you should have made more effort. If success is one of the reasons for your feelings toward Jews maybe you should consider that the treatment they've received is hardly privileged.
Where have I admitted I'm jealous Philip? I'm nothing of the sort and I'm very happy with the effort I've put in over the years thank you. Those magic mushrooms of yours must be very potent.
I've never ever met anyone who's worked hard and been ok; I've only seen really hard working, brave people like miners putting in 7 day a week slogs in grim conditions penniless and broken in their later years. However, I've also seen plenty of people who have made relative fortunes not through their own industry but through the hard work of exploited others.
Jews have been castigated throughout history and for many different reasons and there's no doubting they have often been treated very harshly yet, as I note that you have conveniently sidestepped my question on the Armenian genocide, there are countless other ethnicities and socio -religious groupings around the world which have been treated equally as badly but they don't get the same platform to appeal their cause as Jewish people do because they don't have powerful friends to support them
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Only in your mind do all Jews have powerful friends to support them. Only in your mind is the extermination of six million human beings called " being treated harshly". Only in your mind were there "various reasons " for the persecutions.
I've rarely met anyone who does well without working hard, and only in your mind are hard working successful people depriving you of some entitlement to steal the food from their children's mouths.
That's your beef with Jews isn't it ? You think all Jews are rich and intelligent so you envy them and you want to punish them for your own failings.
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Only in your mind do all Jews have powerful friends to support them. Only in your mind is the extermination of six million human beings called " being treated harshly". Only in your mind were there "various reasons " for the persecutions.
I've rarely met anyone who does well without working hard, and only in your mind are hard working successful people depriving you of some entitlement to steal the food from their children's mouths.
That's your beef with Jews isn't it ? You think all Jews are rich and intelligent so you envy them and you want to punish them for your own failings.
I think your inarticulate ramblings just show up your general ignorance and personal demons Philip
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
I didn't at any point think Corbyn said that. You posted it and it clearly referred to Nigel Farage.
I said I'll look into it because I want to see who these people are who have objected and why. I'm already aware of the many organisations and individuals who've objected to Corbyn.
We're on to circumcision now are we ?
Is this what you know of Jewish people ?
Again, why should I be surprised that the people here who gang up on minorities to silence opinion are the same ones who are happy to gang up on Jews ?
So now you add blatant lying to racist trolling? No wonder so many good posters put you on ignore. Pathetic and shameful!
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Two who've been unmasked trying to divert by unsubstantiated nasty insults.
It's as simple as that !
Fatetur facinus qui judicium fugit
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Someone's been busy googling Black's Law Dictionary lol
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Again insults not arguments !
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
I note that some love to stick to the magic 6 million figure hereabout in spite of the fact that the 1945 Soviet guesstimates of 4 million deaths at the Auschwitz labour camp being revised down to 1 million and Majdanek's original 1.5 million dropping to 78k. Alternatively the Soviets were accurate and the Polish government are anti-Semites.
The Red Cross' grand total for deaths at German labour camps was 271k. It's a wonder some European governments don't attempt to prosecute them for Holohoax, er, Holocaust denial.
https://12bytes.org/wp-content/uploa...ust-Deaths.jpg
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Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
I note that some love to stick to the magic 6 million figure hereabout in spite of the fact that the 1945 Soviet guesstimates of 4 million deaths at the Auschwitz labour camp being revised down to 1 million and Majdanek's original 1.5 million dropping to 78k. Alternatively the Soviets were accurate and the Polish government are anti-Semites.
The Red Cross' grand total for deaths at German labour camps was 271k. It's a wonder some European governments don't attempt to prosecute them for Holohoax, er, Holocaust denial.
https://12bytes.org/wp-content/uploa...ust-Deaths.jpg
These are things which people should be free to discuss and I've never agreed with this idea of "holocaust denial" being banned because it impinges freedom of speech and might give the impression there's something to hide.
I still think this,although when I witness the thinly veiled bloodlust by some here, ( not you), I can at least understand why people react by trying to silence such a dangerous philosophy.
Who knows the real numbers, but it was certainly a very bad thing which we don't want to let happen again.
I'd have my own comments about the matter but I'm not going to post them here because there are one or two who would attempt to use any small historical error to justify their race hate.
