Is England allowing Wales and Scotland to go without PPE ?

Is Organ a valley commando that supports all Welsh teams across all sports and politically does he vote for the home team ?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

If you think Nicola Sturgeon is the best politician in the country then you have a very strange idea of what constitutes good.
She is presiding over a government that is so obsessed with independence that it has neglected it first duties to the degree where the scottish economy is in Billions of pounds of debt, their health service is even worse than the welsh one, god help them, and she is telling people they will be better off without the rest of britain propping the country up. They have a disproprtionate number of MP's a thing vigerously defended by the labour party when they were all red, until the SNP came and bit them, so their numbers in parliament are part of the reason that labour are unlikely to get a majority any time soon and she is the best politician in the country. Again, God help us!!

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Not sure any nationalist party can say they'd be better off, just that they'd be responsible for their issues and could make different decisions. Is she the best politician? I think you raise some valid points, not enough is made of SNP's limitations with what they do control, but hope you remember that she first came to prominence during debates with David Cameron when pundits remarked that the eventual prime minister of the UK knew so little about Scotland that couldn't counter her debate points...

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The thing is tbhat there are a number of welsh people who have it in their hgeads that every person in any authority in England has an agenda to put down the welsh, whereas in reality most people in that position in England never even think about Wales

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Isn't that enough of a concern? Wales is literally forgotten, at least until it's time to bash labour in Westminster, so that investment only happens when attached to Bristol. We need better politicians too (we ended up with Kent's finest who once got drunk in Common's bar so missed a vote and Neil Hamilton because there are some people living in Wales who hate the idea of Wales being distinct from England in any way) and better media because the twitter page "That's devolved" has far, far too many entries.

As long as our media coverage is dominated by unionist, London outlets I can understand why so many Welsh people have a negative opinion of our own ability.

Just out of curiosity, why are some people against people in Wales making decisions that affect Wales? Why is Wales better off being ruled far away in London by MPs, very few of whom live here and don't always consider Wales when making decisions?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Just out of curiosity, why are some people against people in Wales making decisions that affect Wales? Why is Wales better off being ruled far away in London by MPs, very few of whom live here and don't always consider Wales when making decisions?

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Possibly because we've seen the talking shop that is the Welsh Assembly in action and realise they are inept? Giving them more powers... lol.

These letters to vulnerable people is yet another example of how much better it is for government and service in wales to be run by wales!!!!

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

It'll be ok. We’re all in it together !

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"Union of equals"

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Originally Posted by City123

"Union of equals"

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So you think Wales, Scotland, N Ireland should have more power on a per person basis?

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So you think Wales, Scotland, N Ireland should have more power on a per person basis?

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I think all nations in the UK should receive equal treatment as we are supposed to be a union of equals

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Just out of curiosity, why are some people against people in Wales making decisions that affect Wales? Why is Wales better off being ruled far away in London by MPs, very few of whom live here and don't always consider Wales when making decisions?

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Nobody hates the Welsh more than the Welsh

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Originally Posted by City123

I think all nations in the UK should receive equal treatment as we are supposed to be a union of equals

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So a nation of 3.5m must be equal to a nation of how many times that number?

Hardly equal on a per person basis, eh? "Welsh people count more than English people" appears to be the view.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

These letters to vulnerable people is yet another example of how much better it is for government and service in wales to be run by wales!!!!

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Aye, they needed to be sent to the wrong addresses.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So a nation of 3.5m must be equal to a nation of how many times that number?

Hardly equal on a per person basis, eh? "Welsh people count more than English people" appears to be the view.

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We're a union of 4 nations, all 4 nations should receive fair and equal treatment.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Possibly because we've seen the talking shop that is the Welsh Assembly in action and realise they are inept? Giving them more powers... lol.

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Then elect better AM's or stand to become one yourself. Where we don't have control it's clear that Wales is ignored so having these powers, an incredibly important win, is wholly different to distrusting those who are elected to use them.

For record, the Kent's finest now elected to be an AM got drunk and missed vote on budget so wasn't any ordinary voting day. That's the sort of character those who are anti-Senedd wanting sitting in it despite what it does for life in Wales.

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Originally Posted by City123

We're a union of 4 nations, all 4 nations should receive fair and equal treatment.

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So you're saying a Scottish person, Welsh person, N Ireland person should have their opinion count more than an English person, proportionately?

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Originally Posted by surge

Then elect better AM's or stand to become one yourself. Where we don't have control it's clear that Wales is ignored so having these powers, an incredibly important win, is wholly different to distrusting those who are elected to use them.

For record, the Kent's finest now elected to be an AM got drunk and missed vote on budget so wasn't any ordinary voting day. That's the sort of character those who are anti-Senedd wanting sitting in it despite what it does for life in Wales.

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Can only elect those that stand - and people vote Labour regardless.

Welsh Assembly sent campaign literature - in Welsh- to Scottish Highlands last year, now sent letters to people vulnerable to covid-19 to wrong addresses...

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So you're saying a Scottish person, Welsh person, N Ireland person should have their opinion count more than an English person, proportionately?

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I'm saying that in a union of 4 apparently equal partners, each partner should be treated equally

Its not a complicated argument

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So you're saying a Scottish person, Welsh person, N Ireland person should have their opinion count more than an English person, proportionately?

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Not sure your point stands when one of Plaid Cymru's recent messages was something like 4% of rail but 1% of investment (figures may be slightly off).

If you only ever invest in one part of the UK then a small amount of extra investment there is going to have much greater impact, much greater bang for taxpayer, then investing larger amount elsewhere, but if that's your aim then you only widen any existing inequality. Should inequality be widened or is there a way of improving working links between 4 distinct nations in Union? For example, could Wales and Scotland have greater relationship to increase growth in both areas?

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Originally Posted by City123

I'm saying that in a union of 4 apparently equal partners, each partner should be treated equally

Its not a complicated argument

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Except they shouldn't.

If you're looking at a 25% split each way, money, power, whatever, the population demographics don't support that.

Should a Welsh government of 3.5m have 25% say in UK when the percentage of welsh people is far below 25%? If you want that "all nations equal" view then you are saying an individual Welsh persons view weights more than an individual English persons view.

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Originally Posted by City123

I'm saying that in a union of 4 apparently equal partners, each partner should be treated equally

Its not a complicated argument

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Look at the demographics for each nation, population sizes etc then come back and say all should be "equal".

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Can only elect those that stand - and people vote Labour regardless.

Welsh Assembly sent campaign literature - in Welsh- to Scottish Highlands last year, now sent letters to people vulnerable to covid-19 to wrong addresses...

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Encourage people you think are worth voting for to stand, encourage people to have greater interest in politics o apathy isn't the winner of each election, ask tougher questions and demand more of those who have been elected. You obviously have an interest, use that to help Wales rather than to squash it.

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Originally Posted by surge

Encourage people you think are worth voting for to stand, encourage people to have greater interest in politics o apathy isn't the winner of each election. You obviously have an interest, use that to help Wales rather than to squash it.

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Ha, been through way too many elections to have anything other than apathy.
Peopel in Wales vote Labour because it's what generations have done, with the view it's what Welsh people should do and anyone voting Tory is clearly scum.

Why assume, based upon decades of poor performance at council and now Assembly level that things ar magically going to change?

Welsh Labour could have a lead policy of killing every first born child and would still get elected.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Look at the demographics for each nation, population sizes etc then come back and say all should be "equal".

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You're telling me they aren't the same size? Oh my God, I never realised! This is groundbreaking!

Still doesn't change my argument. We're 4 nations in a union, each nation should be treated equally, the largest partner shouldn't be able to throw their weight around to the detriment of others.

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Originally Posted by City123

Nobody hates the Welsh more than the Welsh

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Suppose the important questions are :

Are we up to it.
Do we have the skills set and mechanisms
Is there a hunger for self government
(if yes why don't we see Plaid rise )
Is there any evidence of the current decisions we can make working?
Are we ready to accept self taxation, probably higher ones .

Is the goal a single political movement?

Is this debate just anti English and Tory .?

Would we have the same debate if Labour were In power

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Originally Posted by City123

You're telling me they aren't the same size? Oh my God, I never realised! This is groundbreaking!

Still doesn't change my argument. We're 4 nations in a union, each nation should be treated equally, the largest partner shouldn't be able to throw their weight around to the detriment of others.

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So should be treated equally despite not being equal at all.

Makes real sense, that.

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

So should be treated equally despite not being equal at all.

Makes real sense, that.

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A proper functioning sovereign state sends money and resources to parts of their state that need it most at the expense of other parts of the state that don't need it, that is how a properly functioning state should act but that description doesn't always seem to be the case as regards the UK.

Tell it like it is- are you deliberately trying to be thick? Treated equally means the 4 nations should have PROPORTIONATELY the same investment, resources spent on them, etc, not 25% of the UK's resources each! You may understand per capita? Given each nation's population, resources should be allocated according to the population of each. Transport is a classic example of how the Wales loses out big time in relation to South East England.

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Originally Posted by Penywaun gentrified

Tell it like it is- are you deliberately trying to be thick? Treated equally means the 4 nations should have PROPORTIONATELY the same investment, resources spent on them, etc, not 25% of the UK's resources each! You may understand per capita? Given each nation's population, resources should be allocated according to the population of each. Transport is a classic example of how the Wales loses out big time in relation to South East England.

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:fishing:

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Originally Posted by trampie09

A proper functioning sovereign state sends money and resources to parts of their state that need it most at the expense of other parts of the state that don't need it, that is how a properly functioning state should act but that description doesn't always seem to be the case as regards the UK.

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It spends money in the places and on the projects that have the most chance of getting a return for the taxpayer. It's not the governemtn's money nad it has to husband it wisely.

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Originally Posted by Penywaun gentrified

Tell it like it is- are you deliberately trying to be thick? Treated equally means the 4 nations should have PROPORTIONATELY the same investment, resources spent on them, etc, not 25% of the UK's resources each! You may understand per capita? Given each nation's population, resources should be allocated according to the population of each. Transport is a classic example of how the Wales loses out big time in relation to South East England.

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And which of those you refer to are devolved? Yeah, there's a need in Cardiff for a metro thingy, sort out Brynglas tunnels? **** that...

People have been saying "equal partners"... can't see anyone saying "proportional partners"...

Gentrified? Like ****.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

It spends money in the places and on the projects that have the most chance of getting a return for the taxpayer. It's not the governemtn's money nad it has to husband it wisely.

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London Garden Bridge? HS2?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

London Garden Bridge? HS2?

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Bridge no, HS2 yes

But I think the bridge was London money as opposed to Central Government money.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Bridge no, HS2 yes

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A massively over-priced high speed railway originally costing £50bn(ish) that keeps getting delayed and more expensive (now estimated to be costing £100bn(ish) is a good investment for the taxpayer? For a minute fraction of the cost they could solve the homeless crisis in the UK and have £99bn left to put some railway links in the north and east of Cardiff.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

A massively over-priced high speed railway originally costing £50bn(ish) that keeps getting delayed and more expensive (now estimated to be costing £100bn(ish) is a good investment for the taxpayer? For a minute fraction of the cost they could solve the homeless crisis in the UK and have £99bn left to put some railway links in the north and east of Cardiff.

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I think the line is more about the "Northern Powerhouse" than finacial return, but there is a hope that it will in time give that return. In the great scheme of things £50 billion isn't such a huge sum any more at government level.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I think the line is more about the "Northern Powerhouse" than finacial return, but there is a hope that it will in time give that return. In the great scheme of things £50 billion isn't such a huge sum any more at government level.

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What about £100,000,000,000 which is what they are projecting its costs as being? How is that money being spent on a high speed railway in England going to benefit the taxpayer? Is £100bn going to be the final cost or will it keep growing exponentially as it has done so far?

Sorry, I've got a lot of questions about how idiotic I think this 'project' is.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

What about £100,000,000,000 which is what they are projecting its costs as being? How is that money being spent on a high speed railway in England going to benefit the taxpayer? Is £100bn going to be the final cost or will it keep growing exponentially as it has done so far?

Sorry, I've got a lot of questions about how idiotic I think this 'project' is.

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I understand your point but part of the increase in cost is due to the length of time it has taked to overcome all the objections, both good and bad, and the resolution systems that deal with them. In a lot of other country (Good or bad) they would have been dismissed or upheld by a committee and the work would have started years ago. A little like the M4 relief which has been banging on for years. god knows how much it has cost, probably more than if they had just built the thing. I can recall 10/11 years ago listening to the then Chancellor Alistair Darling discussing HS2 on the phone, and then he was saying that it could run up to £50 million, and that was before all the delays.
All that said I think on balance it is better for the country as a whole that it is built rather than not built.

All the devolved laws that have been given by the UK Government are ones that the UK Government want to give away, NHS etc. They don't care how the money is used as it's given by the barnett formula which more than likely saves them money in the long run, set up, admin, maintenance etc considering most of the infrastructure is already old.

A huge issue is how HS2 can use Welsh tax payers money as it is a Wales/England railway due to rail not being devolved, this is absolutely criminal as not 1 metre of track will be in Wales. All while it has been forecast it will negatively impact the Welsh economy by £100million per year. I wonder if the devolution of the Valley lines has been halted on purpose so Westminster doesn't have to give any of the 100Billion HS2 forecast via the Barnett formula? Once work has started then the devolution of the valley infrastructure will magically be completed.

In regards to the Assembly, Labour is the issue, not devolution. Anybody in charge for 20+ years will be complacent due to the confidence of being voted in time after time, if Labour get voted out of the Senedd next year they will improve by the time the next election comes around. I was originally a Labour supporter but due to their incompetency I will be voting Plaid next year, I would even prefer the Tories get in over Labour next year if Plaid aren't able to raise enough support as Labour are in need of a wake up call.

'People haven't been mentioning proportional partners' because it's bleedin' obvious and doesn't need explaining. Do you really think those of us who believe we get short changed by London think we should get 'equal' funding- 3 million people getting the same as 50 odd million? Per person in relation to the population. Jesus wept.
That's the simple part, but you have to consider socio-economic factors and reflect that in the funding to address the disparity between the wealthier areas of England and most areas of Wales. Sorry, this is probably over your head.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

What about £100,000,000,000 which is what they are projecting its costs as being? How is that money being spent on a high speed railway in England going to benefit the taxpayer? Is £100bn going to be the final cost or will it keep growing exponentially as it has done so far?

Sorry, I've got a lot of questions about how idiotic I think this 'project' is.

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Benefit the taxpayer? Increased connections, faster travel mean more attractive for companies to locate outside South East bubble for example... stimulate economy midlands / north etc...

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Originally Posted by tell it like it is

Benefit the taxpayer? Increased connections, faster travel mean more attractive for companies to locate outside South East bubble for example... stimulate economy midlands / north etc...

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How long until that £100,000,000,000 moves back into the UK economy do you reckon... with all of this projected stimulation in the Midlands/north etc?