Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

My own view is that in these more (marginally) enlightened times it would be a great idea to remove all statues of human beings and not erect any more. Let's face it, humans are not perfect and as much as some will inspire some folk, they will disgust others.

Far better to erect statues of aspirations, ideals and intellectual achievements conceptually. Statues like those of the Angel of the North would suffice without having reference to actual people. Those would be better off in museums in context.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

My own view is that in these more (marginally) enlightened times it would be a great idea to remove all statues of human beings and not erect any more. Let's face it, humans are not perfect and as much as some will inspire some folk, they will disgust others.

Far better to erect statues of aspirations, ideals and intellectual achievements conceptually. Statues like those of the Angel of the North would suffice without having reference to actual people. Those would be better off in museums in context.

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Leave Fred up though:thumbup:

One of the biggest constructions in the World, should be torn down, for what it symbolises towards slavery.

The Colosseum, in Rome

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.

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I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????

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No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

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It's also widely accepted churchill was a racist . He was the right man for the job at the time but his intellect does not prevent him from being a right horrible git .

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.

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Enoch Powell was an intelligent man and an intellect but he was a horrible man

He said how can I be a racist ? Since I have no desire to associate with black people how can I be a racist ?

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

“They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”

What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE

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I am afraid that there is a certain section of society that are fecking daft racists and if hiding away these statues or dumping them in the dock gets them in a strop , I am all for it

They are not interested in education . You cant educate bricks .

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Originally Posted by delmbox

No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument

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So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

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I think it's different with fictional beings but if you want to start that crusade I've got no objections

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

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Thatcher’s actions affected my life, she was a prominent figure of the 20th century, so I include her as one of the century’s despots.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Leave Fred up though:thumbup:

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Yes, Fred's different lol

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Originally Posted by lardy

I'm not at all experienced in the military but even I know you need something with a bit more firepower than an umbrella if you're running towards the enemy.

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The bloke was a f*g nutcase by all contemporary accounts so I wouldn’t be surprised

I just saw Jon1959 post. Sums it up I guess

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Did he though? History is written by the victors.

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Agree with you about history being written rewritten and revised by the victors

I don’t have personal knowledge of his exploits but contemporary accounts for example ‘Wellington’ by Barbara Longford And Wellington: The Years of the Sword.
Wellingtons Welsh General: life of Sir Thomas Picton by Robert Harvard
paint his character quite darkly whilst praising his ferocious approach to fighting battles. Seems the type of bloke you’d want on your side rather than playing for the opposition. A bit like Sergio Ramos

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Originally Posted by jeepster

SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.

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Churchill also sacrificed the 51st Highland Division after Dunkirk and was the chief architect of the division of the Balkans and the separation of the Middle East to create the state of Israel. The putting down with the help of the Japanese of all people of the Indian army’s revolt in Singapore during WW 1

And so on


He’s got an awful lot to answer for

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I think it's different with fictional beings but if you want to start that crusade I've got no objections

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The trouble is that billions of people the Pope, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Justin Welsby and Al Sharpton, to name but a few, believe that God ( be he Allah, Zeus, Christ, Wotan, Zoroastrian, et al. ) is real even though he condones and instructs upon slavery in the Bible. You have to be very careful who you refer to as fictional. Even the World’s best stand up comic Trump still intones “so help me God”.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Thatcher’s actions affected my life, she was a prominent figure of the 20th century, so I include her as one of the century’s despots.

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She may have been ruthless but hardly in the class of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco ( add Mao and Stalin to that list as well).

Inaccurate too. I am sorry if she affected your life in a negative way but she was no despot as she did not have absolute power in the way the others above did.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

She may have been ruthless but hardly in the class of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco ( add Mao and Stalin to that list as well).

Inaccurate too. I am sorry if she affected your life in a negative way but she was no despot as she did not have absolute power in the way the others above did.

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She acted as though she had absolute power, tyrant of a woman.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

She acted as though she had absolute power, tyrant of a woman.

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Complete and utter nonsense. She was democratically elected unlike some of the mouthpieces that railed against her.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

Complete and utter nonsense. She was democratically elected unlike some of the mouthpieces that railed against her.

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Elected yes but do you really think she was a decent woman? She was a disgusting, horrible person who trampled over the working class of this country. Ruined the country, closed major industries, ridiculously high interest rates under her premiership, great if you had thousands or millions in the bank, a massive struggle if you had a mortgage and a few kids. She was evil!!!!!

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

Complete and utter nonsense. She was democratically elected unlike some of the mouthpieces that railed against her.

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Likes thatcher the bitch

Admires churchill

****ing tory

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Elected yes but do you really think she was a decent woman? She was a disgusting, horrible person who trampled over the working class of this country. Ruined the country, closed major industries, ridiculously high interest rates under her premiership, great if you had thousands or millions in the bank, a massive struggle if you had a mortgage and a few kids. She was evil!!!!!

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A right evil bitch

Sold off council houses

Sold off gas , water , phones , electricity

All for money

Propped up the failing economy with north sea oil cash

Dreadful woman , perfect for selfish feckers though

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Likes thatcher the bitch

Admires churchill

****ing tory

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I never said I liked Thatcher but I do admire Churchill. I have voted Labour, Tory, Plaid and Green. I base my political preferences on the arguments put before me not on ingrained social prejudice.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

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Are there any statues of God - the Old Testament Beardy Boy?

All the statues/effigies I can think of from the various Christian or Jewish traditions are of saints, Jesus or Mary or biblical kings and prophets like David and Moses.

There have been a lot of paintings of God (Sistine Chapel ceiling, Orthodox icons, alter pieces etc). If you are arguing for those to be covered over with a coat of magnolia emulsion I have to disagree - apart from the Sistine Chapel which is hideous!

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

One of the biggest constructions in the World, should be torn down, for what it symbolises towards slavery.

The Colosseum, in Rome

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Why not, they tore down the Vetch.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I never said I liked Thatcher but I do admire Churchill. I have voted Labour, Tory, Plaid and Green. I base my political preferences on the arguments put before me not on ingrained social prejudice.

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Your not on your own its okay to admire extraordinary individuals and leaders , all of them have made mistakes and delivered a difference that both benefits or sadly adversely effects others , at times like WW2 and Nazi
we needed strength and hard decisions we go it thank god as its delivered a great country not a perfect one but better than most with some wonderful freedoms .

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I never said I liked Thatcher but I do admire Churchill. I have voted Labour, Tory, Plaid and Green. I base my political preferences on the arguments put before me not on ingrained social prejudice.

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Here is an arguement put before you , thatcher was a bitch , churchill was a racist and you are a tory

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Your not on your own its okay to admire extraordinary individuals and leaders , all of them have made mistakes and delivered a difference that both benefits or sadly adversely effects others , at times like WW2 and Nazi
we needed strength and hard decisions we go it thank god as its delivered a great country not a perfect one but better than most with some wonderful freedoms .

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You think thatcher was an extraordinary leader ?

And you continually try to make us believe you are a labour voter ?

Feckin get out of here

Posted in error

Churchill condoned the murder of not just non British people but also his own countrymen, collateral damage??????? Thatcher destroyed towns, villages, communities through her evil policies, places that have never recovered, her legacy is the sad, drug addled ghettoes with no hope throughout the UK. These are just some of their evil doings and still some people laud them, the history taught in schools requires a rethink.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Here is an arguement put before you , thatcher was a bitch , churchill was a racist and you are a tory

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There is no point at all in arguing. There are those who see, those who see what they want to see and those who do not see anything at all. Work it out.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

There is no point at all in arguing. There are those who see, those who see what they want to see and those who do not see anything at all. Work it out.

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I have worked it out , you admire thatcher , you admire churchill . You are a tory .

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have worked it out , you admire thatcher , you admire churchill . You are a tory .

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You are dumber than I thought you were.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

You are dumber than I thought you were.

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Churchill was a great man , thatcher was to be admired ........but you are not a tory

Ok , I believe you

Carry on , nothing to see here

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Churchill was a great man , thatcher was to be admired ........but you are not a tory

Ok , I believe you

Carry on , nothing to see here

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When I joined this board many years ago, albeit under another user name, there were no preconditions re. political persuasion. I find it disturbing that an “ International “ poster would deride me for being a Tory, even if I was one. It seems that your life post Thatcher has been one dedicated to the enviable pastime of fishing whilst I was running a sweat shop, working 16 hours a day , which eventually enabled me to buy my own stretch of the Usk.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

When I joined this board many years ago, albeit under another user name, there were no preconditions re. political persuasion. I find it disturbing that an “ International “ poster would deride me for being a Tory, even if I was one. It seems that your life post Thatcher has been one dedicated to the enviable pastime of fishing whilst I was running a sweat shop, working 16 hours a day , which eventually enabled me to buy my own stretch of the Usk.

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what's an international poster?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

what's an international poster?

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Check above your avatar

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

Check above your avatar

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woah!

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

When I joined this board many years ago, albeit under another user name, there were no preconditions re. political persuasion. I find it disturbing that an “ International “ poster would deride me for being a Tory, even if I was one. It seems that your life post Thatcher has been one dedicated to the enviable pastime of fishing whilst I was running a sweat shop, working 16 hours a day , which eventually enabled me to buy my own stretch of the Usk.

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No post thatcher I have been a housing advice worker trying to help people affected by her wicked social policies

I had to give that up to look after my elderly parents , again made more difficult by the market based approach to social care

I cant stand conservatives I am afraid and that's the way it is , especially those trying to defend the statues of people like Winston Churchill, I dont care how intellectual he was , in many peoples opinion he was a horrible man . And he was dumped out of office .

You seem to be suggesting you are the only person who has put in long hours at work .......clearly cobblers ....and your reward is a stretch on the usk

Well done , good for you although I prefer to fish fisheries with mixed species , I find fly fishing boring and with a spinner you could end up with a wild brownie , perch , chub or pike

Tight lines

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Originally Posted by delmbox

woah!

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You were an International and didn’t know it, Congratulations.