No U turn on essential goods ban

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Drakeford OUT

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Who do you want to replace him ?

You can either choose someone from the current labour administration

Or vote out the Labour administration by replacing them with plaid or the conservatives

Personally I couldn't vote for plaid as they are nationalists and I would rather have my eyes poked out with a sharp stick than vote tory

Drakeford is merely following Labour's policy. Starmer wants a total lockdown in England and Drakeford has done more or less the same thing with his firebreak in Wales. This morning on Andrew Marr it was stated that Ceredigion had 33 cases per 100k of population with Cardiff over 300 indicating it made no sense to penalise Ceredigion with such low number of infections.

Let's face it any government, whatever their political persuasion be it Labour in Wales or the Tories, are sitting targets for those who want to score political points. This virus is breaking new ground, throwing up all kinds of unforeseen problems and nobody has found a popular way to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Drakeford is merely following Labour's policy. Starmer wants a total lockdown in England and Drakeford has done more or less the same thing with his firebreak in Wales. This morning on Andrew Marr it was stated that Ceredigion had 33 cases per 100k of population with Cardiff over 300 indicating it made no sense to penalise Ceredigion with such low number of infections.

Let's face it any government, whatever their political persuasion be it Labour in Wales or the Tories, are sitting targets for those who want to score political points. This virus is breaking new ground, throwing up all kinds of unforeseen problems and nobody has found a popular way to deal with them.

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The tourist industry of west Wales was initially telling everyone to keep out of Pembrokeshire, then they wanted it opened up , then shut . Now they want it opened up again because the virus rate is low .

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

We had months of lockdown earlier in the year. People bought online. I don't buy into any claims that this latest, brief lockdown will inspire a new generation of internet buyers.

On reflection, I don't really know where I stand on whether non-essential items shouldn't be available, simply because for some people at some times, what may be non-essential for the vast majority will be very essential. I certainly think anything for babies and children should be absolutely essential.

However, I feel that the biggest issue with all of this isn't actually the items themselves. It's from people who have had enough of being told what to do, who feel their freedom isn't their own, so there's a natural rebellion. Misinformation has been spread around along with nonsensical conspiracy theories, dividing normal people in a similar way to Brexit. I can't help but think that if we had a major war now and people were ordered to have their lights out by certain times, to follow procedures for all sorts of things, we'd have conspiracy theorists and peddling of bollocks by those supposedly more upset at losing a few freedoms.

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No, on reflection I didn't phrase my earlier couple of posts very well.

Of course a lot will have already experienced shopping online. There will be those who decide to keep doing it for most of their needs but I am sure many will at least partially have gone back to more local shopping.

Now they will probably go online so local stores will lose business anyway (presumably all the supermarkets online business will be under no restriction on selling non essentials!!).

As I said elsewhere the intention is probably laudable but it may not have all the effect the Welsh Government hopes for.

I agree with your point about babies and children but then what about the elderly,disabled,sick who might need new clothing and bedding. I am sure there are other cases as well.

I don't envy governments of any persuasion in coping with the complexities they are facing now.

But they all wanted the job.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Who do you want to replace him ?

You can either choose someone from the current labour administration

Or vote out the Labour administration by replacing them with plaid or the conservatives

Personally I couldn't vote for plaid as they are nationalists and I would rather have my eyes poked out with a sharp stick than vote tory

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I do think a form of opposition is healthy in any political environment.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I do think a form of opposition is healthy in any political environment.

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Absolutely but have you seen the calibre of the opposition ?

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

No, on reflection I didn't phrase my earlier couple of posts very well.

Of course a lot will have already experienced shopping online. There will be those who decide to keep doing it for most of their needs but I am sure many will at least partially have gone back to more local shopping.

Now they will probably go online so local stores will lose business anyway (presumably all the supermarkets online business will be under no restriction on selling non essentials!!).

As I said elsewhere the intention is probably laudable but it may not have all the effect the Welsh Government hopes for.

I agree with your point about babies and children but then what about the elderly,disabled,sick who might need new clothing and bedding. I am sure there are other cases as well.

I don't envy governments of any persuasion in coping with the complexities they are facing now.

But they all wanted the job.

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You've highlighted the problem very well here by adding others who might need certain things to the list. I think we're all guilty of not considering what someone else might need, though I think that in the majority of cases, what someone might need as an essential doesn't turn out to be an essential. My experience of elderly people is that they have enough bedding for a village and wardrobes full of clothes they don't want to throw out in case they 'come in handy'.

In terms of clothes, there can't be many, even disabled people, who don't have enough clothes to get by for fortnight. That's not to say there aren't any. I lost a cousin earlier this year who had a favourite shirt from Tesco. He had serious mental health issues. It was the only shirt he'd wear. If it got damaged, he replaced it with the same one. You can imagine when that shirt was no longer stocked etc. Issues like that could cause a major issue for someone.

I said to a Tory supporting friend on social media recently that I have no problems with those in power making u-turns, when they are sensible. We all make mistakes and need to correct them. As long as the original aim is understandable and makes sense, then fine by me. It's when those in power make dishonest decisions and do things not for the general good but to curry favour and stick by them, then they deserve all the hostility they get.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

You've highlighted the problem very well here by adding others who might need certain things to the list. I think we're all guilty of not considering what someone else might need, though I think that in the majority of cases, what someone might need as an essential doesn't turn out to be an essential. My experience of elderly people is that they have enough bedding for a village and wardrobes full of clothes they don't want to throw out in case they 'come in handy'.

In terms of clothes, there can't be many, even disabled people, who don't have enough clothes to get by for fortnight. That's not to say there aren't any. I lost a cousin earlier this year who had a favourite shirt from Tesco. He had serious mental health issues. It was the only shirt he'd wear. If it got damaged, he replaced it with the same one. You can imagine when that shirt was no longer stocked etc. Issues like that could cause a major issue for someone.

I said to a Tory supporting friend on social media recently that I have no problems with those in power making u-turns, when they are sensible. We all make mistakes and need to correct them. As long as the original aim is understandable and makes sense, then fine by me. It's when those in power make dishonest decisions and do things not for the general good but to curry favour and stick by them, then they deserve all the hostility they get.

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I look at the restrictions on retail in two ways. Fist the closure of non essential shops by the Senedd is OK as its a public health issue and part of the 'fire-break'. Some shops remaining open is another part of the plan to give people access to 'essential 'shopping

Producing a list of non essential items is getting into micro management but is OK.

However, instructing essential shops, mainly supermarkets, to stop selling non essential items in order to be 'fair to closed shops and to level things up' is nothing to do with public health, and sits in the area of commerce and the UK competition act. I doubt it's within the remit of the Senedd to do this and on the surface it appears anti-competitive. For sure the UK Competition act is not devolved.

I’m backing the WG generally as they are infinitely more competent than the sick jokes in London but they are allowing their critics to fill their boots here. Stupid stores who close off toothpaste and hygiene products aren’t helping either.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I look at the restrictions on retail in two ways. Fist the closure of non essential shops by the Senedd is OK as its a public health issue and part of the 'fire-break'. Some shops remaining open is another part of the plan to give people access to 'essential 'shopping

Producing a list of non essential items is getting into micro management but is OK.

However, instructing essential shops, mainly supermarkets, to stop selling non essential items in order to be 'fair to closed shops and to level things up' is nothing to do with public health, and sits in the area of commerce and the UK competition act. I doubt it's within the remit of the Senedd to do this and on the surface it appears anti-competitive. For sure the UK Competition act is not devolved.

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Perhaps WG would argue it's allowing the smaller shops to be competitive. How can supermarkets being restricted be anti-competitive when supermarkets have less competition at the moment?

In any case, I would imagine that any reasonable legislation to help fight Covid would take precedence and rightly so.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

But as I said in my other post people may just buy on line and keep doing it.

Not difficult to get that logic either.

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People are buying online.That's why shops are closing all the time.
It was happening before the pandemic.
I will keep on banging the kettle drum.
Support your small retailer,If an when they reopen.

Vaughan Gethin fronting a Press Conference shortly about what can and cannot be bought in supermarkets. Is a U turn on the cards? Being carried live on BBC news.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Vaughan Gethin fronting a Press Conference shortly about what can and cannot be bought in supermarkets. Is a U turn on the birthday/wedding/anniversary/insert your own :hehe: cards? Being carried live on BBC news.

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:wave:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

:wave:

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No U turn. Gething sticking to his guns. Obviously concerned about hospital capacity/critical care beds. Could this be due to the closure of the Nightingale Hospital at the Principality Stadium without the replacement being ready until December?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

No U turn. Gething sticking to his guns. Obviously concerned about hospital capacity/critical care beds. Could this be due to the closure of the Nightingale Hospital at the Principality Stadium without the replacement being ready until December?

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Or could it be that if you're going to have a short sharp lockdown then it needs to be effective or it is pointless doing it at all.

If you start making concessions to people after only 3 days then the whole thing will be a farce within a week.

Well done for remaining firm on it I say.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

No U turn. Gething sticking to his guns. Obviously concerned about hospital capacity/critical care beds. Could this be due to the closure of the Nightingale Hospital at the Principality Stadium without the replacement being ready until December?

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Utter confusion !!!!!

He's saying "If you want something desperately, ask the supermarket" !!! Utter bollocks

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Utter confusion !!!!!

He's saying "If you want something desperately, ask the supermarket" !!! Utter bollocks

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I'm with you on that one. Undermines the whole thing if people can just potentially make up excuses as to why they need a new copy of Bad Boys 2 on DVD and then a shop assistant has to use their discretion as to whether to sell the item.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Perhaps WG would argue it's allowing the smaller shops to be competitive. How can supermarkets being restricted be anti-competitive when supermarkets have less competition at the moment?

In any case, I would imagine that any reasonable legislation to help fight Covid would take precedence and rightly so.

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Supermarkets are being restricted because they and other 'essential' shops are being told not to sell certain items in order to 'level things up' with those shops that have been told to close.

So if you want it and can't get it from the supermarket you are forcing people in Wales to purchase on line. This should be a public health issue but Mark Drakeford's comments make it a commercial issue and he's in danger of digging himself into a hole. EU and UK competition Law is robust and its for the Senedd to apply it not ride roughshod over it.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Or could it be that if you're going to have a short sharp lockdown then it needs to be effective or it is pointless doing it at all.

If you start making concessions to people after only 3 days then the whole thing will be a farce within a week.

Well done for remaining firm on it I say.

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The whole 2 week lockdown is a farce anyway.

All its doing is serving to nail more nails in the coffins of the hospitality and retail sectors.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Who do you want to replace him ?

You can either choose someone from the current labour administration

Or vote out the Labour administration by replacing them with plaid or the conservatives

Personally I couldn't vote for plaid as they are nationalists and I would rather have my eyes poked out with a sharp stick than vote tory

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I want you to replace him. Youve got an answer for everything and are never wrong so my answer is - You.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I want you to replace him. Youve got an answer for everything and are never wrong so my answer is - You.

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I think you would do a better job than me

I am voting Hartley

Hurray For Hartley

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Supermarkets are being restricted because they and other 'essential' shops are being told not to sell certain items in order to 'level things up' with those shops that have been told to close.

So if you want it and can't get it from the supermarket you are forcing people in Wales to purchase on line. This should be a public health issue but Mark Drakeford's comments make it a commercial issue and he's in danger of digging himself into a hole. EU and UK competition Law is robust and its for the Senedd to apply it not ride roughshod over it.

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Wouldn't the lawyers of these large supermarket chains have been all over this when they were told about what was going to be happening, if that was the case?

You were asked yesterday to provide evidence to back up these statements about 'competition law' but said you were not going to do that. Do you care to do so today? It's always nice to learn something new.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Wouldn't the lawyers of these large supermarket chains have been all over this when they were told about what was going to be happening, if that was the case?

You were asked yesterday to provide evidence to back up these statements about 'competition law' but said you were not going to do that. Do you care to do so today? It's always nice to learn something new.

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Sunday trading, when it first came in for supermarkets, didn't places like B&Q get around it by selling you an orange, but you got a free kitchen/pot of paint/etc.

There are ways around everything, if you care to look.

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Sunday trading, when it first came in for supermarkets, didn't places like B&Q get around it by selling you an orange, but you got a free kitchen/pot of paint/etc.

There are ways around everything, if you care to look.

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Did you mean to reply to me with that post? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Wouldn't the lawyers of these large supermarket chains have been all over this when they were told about what was going to be happening, if that was the case?

You were asked yesterday to provide evidence to back up these statements about 'competition law' but said you were not going to do that. Do you care to do so today? It's always nice to learn something new.

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I would hope the lawyers in supermarkets would be on to this but Im sure they will adopt a softly softly approach. If you want to know a bit more about competition law suggest you have a look at the provisions in articles 81/82 of EU treaty and UK Competition Act. To me Mark Drakeford's attempts to restrict product sales in essential shops in order to be fair, level up, create a level playing field with those shops that have been instructed to close is a commercial decision enacted by a dominant entity that can impact on the competitiveness of essential shops in Wales.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think you would do a better job than me

I am voting Hartley

Hurray For Hartley

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Im retired old bean. Fly fishing, golf and dominoes for me.

I suggest Drakeford does the same.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I would hope the lawyers in supermarkets would be on to this but Im sure they will adopt a softly softly approach. If you want to know a bit more about competition law suggest you have a look at the provisions in articles 81/82 of EU treaty and UK Competition Act. To me Mark Drakeford's attempts to restrict product sales in essential shops in order to be fair, level up, create a level playing field with those shops that have been instructed to close is a commercial decision enacted by a dominant entity that can impact on the competitiveness of essential shops in Wales.

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You say 'Competitiveness' for that to happen there has to be a degree of fairness, an opportunity to perform, so to speak. The shops competing over the goods sold by the supermarkets have closed, therefore it isn't competitive. Surely it becomes a little more competitive if the Supermarkets aren't allowed to sell non essential goods?

Won't somebody think of the supermarket's shareholders!

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Sunday trading, when it first came in for supermarkets, didn't places like B&Q get around it by selling you an orange, but you got a free kitchen/pot of paint/etc.

There are ways around everything, if you care to look.

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I can't ever remember B&Q selling fruit in order to get around Sunday trading laws, although i wouldn't say no to a kitchen for 50p, which is roughly the price of an orange.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Won't somebody think of the supermarket's shareholders!

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Yes poor sods have been so badly affected by all this lockdown nonsense

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I can't ever remember B&Q selling fruit in order to get around Sunday trading laws, although i wouldn't say no to a kitchen for 50p, which is roughly the price of an orange.

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That's probably about the price B&Q pay for their kitchens anyway

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Won't somebody think of the supermarket's shareholders!

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Sad thing is that if they don't get the return that they hope for, staff are sacked, conditions slashed, punters pay more. That's the risk these capitalists take.......

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

That's probably about the price B&Q pay for their kitchens anyway

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:hehe: i'll set you up...

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I would hope the lawyers in supermarkets would be on to this but Im sure they will adopt a softly softly approach. If you want to know a bit more about competition law suggest you have a look at the provisions in articles 81/82 of EU treaty and UK Competition Act. To me Mark Drakeford's attempts to restrict product sales in essential shops in order to be fair, level up, create a level playing field with those shops that have been instructed to close is a commercial decision enacted by a dominant entity that can impact on the competitiveness of essential shops in Wales.

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Which part in particular do you think Drakeford is breaching?

If anything Article 82 (c): 'applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage' seems to read that Drakeford has ensured that he's actively adhered to the law with his current rules that restrict the sale of items in supermarkets that other vendors cannot sell at present.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

You say 'Competitiveness' for that to happen there has to be a degree of fairness, an opportunity to perform, so to speak. The shops competing over the goods sold by the supermarkets have closed, therefore it isn't competitive. Surely it becomes a little more competitive if the Supermarkets aren't allowed to sell non essential goods?

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The non essential shops have been closed for public health reasons and will get the compensation via the Senedd or Sunak. Reducing the range of goods in essential shops could have been for public health reasons, but Mark Drakeford said it was to level things up with closed shops ie commercial reasons. This disadvantages supermarkets in Wales through a reduced range as customers who want banned items, even though they have them in stock, will get them from other businesses probably on line

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Did you mean to reply to me with that post? :hehe:

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Well you mentioned lawyers I think, so I thought I'd have my 5p worth :hehe:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Well you mentioned lawyers I think, so I thought I'd have my 5p worth :hehe:

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5p, eh? Here, have an kiwi fruit and a granite worktop for your troubles :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Which part in particular do you think Drakeford is breaching?

If anything Article 82 (c): 'applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage' seems to read that Drakeford has ensured that he's actively adhered to the law with his current rules that restrict the sale of items in supermarkets that other vendors cannot sell at present.

Thoughts?

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You are thinking of other vendors in Wales, I’m thinking of on line competitors in particular. The act is uk wide / eu wide actually

The customer is king,he can’t buy at the supermarket even though it’s in stock for no other reason than the Senedd wants to be fair to shops closed for public health reasons so has banned the item from sale. The customer can wait two weeks or buy on line.

I predict we will see a softening this fternoon with no banned items, maybe just restricted items, a bit more difficult to purchase.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

You are thinking of other vendors in Wales, I’m thinking of on line competitors in particular. The act is uk wide / eu wide actually

The customer is king,he can’t buy at the supermarket even though it’s in stock for no other reason than the Senedd wants to be fair to shops closed for public health reasons so has banned the item from sale. The customer can wait two weeks or buy on line.

I predict we will see a softening this fternoon with no banned items, maybe just restricted items, a bit more difficult to purchase.

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What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

No U turn. Gething sticking to his guns. Obviously concerned about hospital capacity/critical care beds. Could this be due to the closure of the Nightingale Hospital at the Principality Stadium without the replacement being ready until December?

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Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.