Is it time for the club to take a look at itself?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Trouble is, it is always the same 7 or 8 people raising the question on here, usually immediately after a loss. They also don't raise the question when we are winning games, as in the last four matches.

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So are you happy with the entire direction of the club, or are you not concerned in the slightest?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Trouble is, it is always the same 7 or 8 people raising the question on here, usually immediately after a loss. They also don't raise the question when we are winning games, as in the last four matches.

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I think that's the thing with the style of football, if your winning its accepted. Footballs about winning.
If we aren't winning then what we are left with is awful football.

This is not new to Harris but same under Warnock, Malky etc

I think I can look over the years probably since DJ left and say we have lacked an identity. We have had some good times in those years but eventually end back up where we were and I really believe that's because of the lack of identity.

As above you can't really blame the managers as those managers were known for playing a certain way.

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Originally Posted by surge

Brighton's academy was one of the best in the UK and had players to bring through which is probably why, maybe the transfer budget too, Potter agreed to go there. They didn't play better football than us when under Hughton.

Can you/anyone name a side which has successfully jumped to a more expansive style without resources (money or money invested in their academy) to back it up with? The only one I can think of is Swansea but they started in league One.

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So Hughton was a drab manager who played similar to Warnock but they went for Potter. So there are examples.

Our finances are our finances. I would prefer to give the money to a manager with a vision and with the intention of playing an attractive, attacking style. Giving money to Harris, if the club sees him as a stepping stone, for me is wasted money.

Again, you mention Swansea were in League 1. Does it matter where it starts as long as you're not relegated?

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Originally Posted by surge

Can you/anyone name a side which has successfully jumped to a more expansive style without resources

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No one is asking for a "jump" Surge, but signs of a transition would be good. All we've seen for the last 7 or 8 years is turgid football, there is nothing exciting about watching City play, just the same old grind every week, taking players like Wilson & Ojo and making them look very average. Only Camarasa has bucked the trend in that time & occasionally a cameo from Tomlin.

We lost today because the players don't have enough quality and Harris just isn't good enough at tactics to be able to counteract that.

Under Warnock in the Championship we rarely ever got outplayed by our opponents. Even when the other side was better we were still able to turn it into a scrap. Under Harris, we seem to get constantly outplayed when playing a team better than us - the two 2-0 defeats to Fulham last year were cases in point.

Today, we started with a 4-4-2, already a bit of a worry when playing their 3 in midfield but I don't blame him for not wanting to change a winning team. However, the way he set us up gave us absolutely no chance in the game.

Their wing backs were being marked by our wingers, meaning that our full backs were dropped deep never coming up the pitch. If our full backs played tight to their wing backs, we could have played our wingers far narrower off the ball and effectively had 4 in the middle to combat their 3. Instead, we were just left chasing shadows as their more technically gifted 3 passed it around our 2 like they weren't there.

The fact that we were being completely overrun in midfield was obvious early on, and Harris just did nothing to stop it. He only thing he ever seems to do to change things up in games is to bring Glatzel on and go 4-4-2. He just doesn't have the brains to see something is going wrong and change it.

Our most technically gifted player was also then shunted out onto the wing left to track back their wing back all game, and so he could never get into dangerous positions on the pitch. What's the point of having Wilson if we're not going to use him effectively?

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

No one is asking for a "jump" Surge, but signs of a transition would be good. All we've seen for the last 7 or 8 years is turgid football, there is nothing exciting about watching City play, just the same old grind every week, taking players like Wilson & Ojo and making them look very average. Only Camarasa has bucked the trend in that time & occasionally a cameo from Tomlin.

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Exactly this.

We don't have a great deal of money. It is what it is.
Surely though, what we do spend should be spent by a manager with a vision and a change of style.

For me giving money to people like Harris who have no style or real idea of how to change it is wasting money.

Out of interest does anyone know the cost of Swanseas team and if Cooper brought them in. I know some are from the youth team but it doesn't seem an expensive team with the exception of Ayew

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Originally Posted by wberksblue

We lost today because the players don't have enough quality and Harris just isn't good enough at tactics to be able to counteract that.

Under Warnock in the Championship we rarely ever got outplayed by our opponents. Even when the other side was better we were still able to turn it into a scrap. Under Harris, we seem to get constantly outplayed when playing a team better than us - the two 2-0 defeats to Fulham last year were cases in point.

Today, we started with a 4-4-2, already a bit of a worry when playing their 3 in midfield but I don't blame him for not wanting to change a winning team. However, the way he set us up gave us absolutely no chance in the game.

Their wing backs were being marked by our wingers, meaning that our full backs were dropped deep never coming up the pitch. If our full backs played tight to our wing backs, we could have played our wingers far narrower off the ball and effectively had 4 in the middle to combat their 3. Instead, we were just left chasing shadows as their more technically gifted 3 passed it around our 2 like they weren't there.

The fact that we were being completely overrun in midfield was obvious early on, and Harris just did nothing to stop it. He only thing he ever seems to do to change things up in games is to bring Glatzel on and go 4-4-2. He just doesn't have the brains to see something is going wrong and change it.

Our most technically gifted player was also then shunted out onto the wing left to track back their wing back all game, and so he could never get into dangerous positions on the pitch. What's the point of having Wilson if we're not going to use him effectively?

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Agree with so much of that. So much of the criticism after a game like today's can be seen as being knee jerk (especially when the team had won their last four), but I'm sure I wasn't the only City fan who was concerned about, first, playing the same team for a fifth game and, second, playing 4-4-2 against Swansea with a pair of scufflers as the central midfield two.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

So are the owners bleeding them dry or spending more on their team than us?

We can't have it both ways.

Do you think the board even considered the brand of football we would play when employing Harris?

If put on the spot do you think Tan, Choo and Dalman could dissect the performance today and tell us why we lost?

These are the people picking who takes charge of the team here.

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They had what 7 years in the PL.?

Theyve got players there theyve spent big on and on massive wages.

The board want to go up.

We are going to be in deep financial shit in the summer unless we go up and were never going to do that with a complete change of style.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

So Hughton was a drab manager who played similar to Warnock but they went for Potter. So there are examples.

Our finances are our finances. I would prefer to give the money to a manager with a vision and with the intention of playing an attractive, attacking style. Giving money to Harris, if the club sees him as a stepping stone, for me is wasted money.

Again, you mention Swansea were in League 1. Does it matter where it starts as long as you're not relegated?

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They had money and a fantastic youth team. We had neither.

If we jumped to an expansive style we would have got relegated - see Trollope, see us passing out from the back earlier this year before 4-4-2. Either it's something you want done incrementally or you're happy to have a relegation first.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

So Hughton was a drab manager who played similar to Warnock but they went for Potter. So there are examples.

Our finances are our finances. I would prefer to give the money to a manager with a vision and with the intention of playing an attractive, attacking style. Giving money to Harris, if the club sees him as a stepping stone, for me is wasted money.

Again, you mention Swansea were in League 1. Does it matter where it starts as long as you're not relegated?

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The trouble is that you and ETHB obviously don't like Harris and don't want him as City manager and never have. You are allowing this to influence your opinion of the club, board, team and tactics. It us obvious to me that Harris is trying to change the way the team play for the better but this can not be done straight away and is restricted by the players we have and the finances available. You are also making no allowance for the Covid19 situation we find ourselves in - with a full stadium, the performance and result undoubtedly would have been different.

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

No one is asking for a "jump" Surge, but signs of a transition would be good. All we've seen for the last 7 or 8 years is turgid football, there is nothing exciting about watching City play, just the same old grind every week, taking players like Wilson & Ojo and making them look very average. Only Camarasa has bucked the trend in that time & occasionally a cameo from Tomlin.

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Under Warnock we never saw our fullbacks cross halfway and striker was a lonely man. Under Harris, our fullbacks are sometimes in the box and we have support for striker be it Tomlin as a 10, Wilson and Ojo or Harris. We have gone from Patterson as striker to Moore.

Do people disagree there has been some evolution?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

You do realise that we won the previous four games in a row don't you ? Nobody in their right mind would change a winning team like that if they didn't have to. The players didn't perform today - simple as that.

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The same team just played 5 games in two weeks. If "nobody in their right mind would change a winning team" then what the **** happened today? Why didn't the players perform? This whole thing about a "winning team" is bollocks. Every game is different. It's why we have a squad. We played well last Saturday, we rode our luck but battled on Tuesday, but today we were spent. It was humiliating. The manager didn't set up right. And he didn't react. Moore is knackered, Glatzel should have started. Ralls should have been subbed when he was on a yellow. Wilson didn't show up. We just rolled over today but you stick up for the team, and the manager. You're pathetic.

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Originally Posted by surge

Under Warnock we never saw our fullbacks cross halfway and striker was a lonely man. Under Harris, our fullbacks are sometimes in the box and we have support for striker be it Tomlin as a 10, Wilson and Ojo or Harris. We have gone from Patterson as striker to Moore.

Do people disagree there has been some evolution?

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Very very minimal in my opinion, there was always going to be some change with a new manager. I wouldn't say there has been any change in philosophy though. It's all much of a muchness.

Is Lowe really that good? I'd never even heard of him before today. He looked a different class. That outside of the boot goal was sublime. And the view from behind the goal made it look outrageous.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Is Lowe really that good? I'd never even heard of him before today. He looked a different class. That outside of the boot goal was sublime. And the view from behind the goal made it look outrageous.

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I thought he was a Winger tbh, he came from Wigan

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Is Lowe really that good? I'd never even heard of him before today. He looked a different class. That outside of the boot goal was sublime. And the view from behind the goal made it look outrageous.

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I am sure he played with Keifer Moore at wigan

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Is Lowe really that good? I'd never even heard of him before today. He looked a different class. That outside of the boot goal was sublime. And the view from behind the goal made it look outrageous.

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He's had an interesting career so far. Look him up. He had to drop into non-league for a few years to get his career on the right track and worked as a teacher during that time. I saw a really good interview with him a few weeks ago. Seems like a really decent lad.

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Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo

Very very minimal in my opinion, there was always going to be some change with a new manager. I wouldn't say there has been any change in philosophy though. It's all much of a muchness.

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The only area of the pitch where it's the same, in my opinion, is the midfield but we have players who have higher ceiling acting as wingers.

Goalkeeper - Smithies replaced Etheridge due to better distribution
Defence - Osie-tutu and now Bacuna (RWB) have replaced Peltier, Morrisson has started passing out from the back and Bennett is more attacking. On the flip-side, we have started to concede from set-pieces.
Attack - I mentioned how this has changed previously.

No one wants to lose the grit, team-spirit and ability to score from set-pieces Warnock brought in so of course some things still look the same.

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Originally Posted by surge

Under Warnock we never saw our fullbacks cross halfway and striker was a lonely man. Under Harris, our fullbacks are sometimes in the box and we have support for striker be it Tomlin as a 10, Wilson and Ojo or Harris. We have gone from Patterson as striker to Moore.

Do people disagree there has been some evolution?

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Yes, but the recent success saw us revert to type.

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Originally Posted by surge

Open challenge: name me a club that has successfully jumped to play a more expansive game (when not starting in league one or two) without money to spend or having invested a lot in their academy.

Swansea - their journey started in league one.
Brighton - they had invested a lot in their academy and had money to spend
Manchester City - Pep only goes where he has money to spend to bring in his sort of player.

Harris is a stepping stone in the right direction and might get us promotion. This thread is about longer term planning and people want to take a massive jump without any resources, partly because of philosophy of previous manager, to back it up with.

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Leicester, Everton, Sheffield United, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Coventry, QPR and in the lower divisions, this season's Newport County.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Stolen my thunder there Eric because my blog piece is going to be along the same lines - I'm the most annoyed I've been after a game in years and am sick and tired of having a style of football I can't stand shoved down my throat because, apparently, the people in charge at the club believe it's what I want to see. Do other City fans really enjoy the sort of football we've been producing for the last ten years?

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Today feels like it could be a watershed moment, for the fans at least.

Yes, playing the way we do has brought us some success. There’s no denying that.

But goodness me I’m tired of it now. It is mind-numbingly boring. The ball spends as much time off the pitch as it does on it. It can take a minute to take a throw.

I don’t watch football to be frustrated, I’ve got kids for that.

For the love of football, try to string 4 passes together and put a move together. If we lose more games as a result, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

They had what 7 years in the PL.?

Theyve got players there theyve spent big on and on massive wages.

The board want to go up.

We are going to be in deep financial shit in the summer unless we go up and were never going to do that with a complete change of style.

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How difficult is such a thing? We are talking about pro footballers that earn a lot of money. Our defenders can defend yes? Bennett aside maybe? We have a couple of decent strikers? So it’s just down to our midfield not being expansive? Ralls is usually ok, Tomlin when he plays, Wilson obviously decent, hoilett and Ojo? We don’t need a new team do we, just a few footballers who can create time and space with the ball.

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Originally Posted by goats

How difficult is such a thing? We are talking about pro footballers that earn a lot of money. Our defenders can defend yes? Bennett aside maybe? We have a couple of decent strikers? So it’s just down to our midfield not being expansive? Ralls is usually ok, Tomlin when he plays, Wilson obviously decent, hoilett and Ojo? We don’t need a new team do we, just a few footballers who can create time and space with the ball.

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Or a management who know how to set the team up to play. Swansea's midfield aren't amazing footballers but the way they're set up means they have plenty of options to pass to, that's down to the management knowing how to set the team up to play football

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https://twitter.com/Blades_analytic/...87992730087429 (December 7th, expected goals scored and conceded from open play)

The increasingly becoming obviously good crew in the top right. Brentford, Bournemouth, Swansea clearly above the rest on the balance of the 2 metrics. All 3 are dominant in open play

Cardiff's results are now happening and the data supports that turn around of fortunes, really wouldn't take much for them or #htfc to become very good sides in this league, from open play anyway.

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Expect it will look less good 5 days on but shows we're no slouches from open play.

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Originally Posted by City123

Or a management who know how to set the team up to play. Swansea's midfield aren't amazing footballers but the way they're set up means they have plenty of options to pass to, that's down to the management knowing how to set the team up to play football

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So we should have just played a five man mid like they always do today?

I worry aboutwhat we have done to Harry Wilson. He was fantastic on loan with Derby last season and always impresses when playing for Wales.

It seemed a real coup when we signed him on loan and he was very impressive in his first few games but has been become more and more anonymous in recent matches, even the ones we’ve won

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I worry aboutwhat we have done to Harry Wilson. He was fantastic on loan with Derby last season and always impresses when playing for Wales.

It seemed a real coup when we signed him on loan and he was very impressive in his first few games but has been become more and more anonymous in recent matches, even the ones we’ve won

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Ask Bournemouth fans what they think about Wilson :hehe:

I like him and he's a really good player but he drifts in and out of games so much.

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Originally Posted by EastbourneBlue

Today feels like it could be a watershed moment, for the fans at least.

Yes, playing the way we do has brought us some success. There’s no denying that.

But goodness me I’m tired of it now. It is mind-numbingly boring. The ball spends as much time off the pitch as it does on it. It can take a minute to take a throw.

I don’t watch football to be frustrated, I’ve got kids for that.

For the love of football, try to string 4 passes together and put a move together. If we lose more games as a result, so be it.

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POST OF THE DAY

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I worry aboutwhat we have done to Harry Wilson. He was fantastic on loan with Derby last season and always impresses when playing for Wales.

It seemed a real coup when we signed him on loan and he was very impressive in his first few games but has been become more and more anonymous in recent matches, even the ones we’ve won

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He's not played in the best position, we don't give him the ball that often, he's not a winger and today he spent enough time in defensive midfield helping out because we were overrun. I can only imagine how frustrated he feels here.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

He's not played in the best position, we don't give him the ball that often, he's not a winger and today he spent enough time in defensive midfield helping out because we were overrun. I can only imagine how frustrated he feels here.

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When has Wilson played a prolonged spell as anything other than a winger? He played right wing for Derby and the same position for Bournemouth?

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

When has Wilson played a prolonged spell as anything other than a winger? He played right wing for Derby and the same position for Bournemouth?

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Apologies, I was under the impression he was used as a number 10. Shows how much I followed his career before.

His stats aren't that bad compared with the rest of his career. It appears Derby managed to get him onto the ball more than we have, but there's nothing to suggest he's underperforming.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Apologies, I was under the impression he was used as a number 10. Shows how much I followed his career before.

His stats aren't that bad compared with the rest of his career. It appears Derby managed to get him onto the ball more than we have, but there's nothing to suggest he's underperforming.

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His Derby side had Mason Mount in it as well. Safe to say they had a midfield that could find him regularly.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

His Derby side had Mason Mount in it as well. Safe to say they had a midfield that could find him regularly.

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In fairness, our midfield found lots of white shirts this afternoon...

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

No one is asking for a "jump" Surge, but signs of a transition would be good. All we've seen for the last 7 or 8 years is turgid football, there is nothing exciting about watching City play, just the same old grind every week, taking players like Wilson & Ojo and making them look very average. Only Camarasa has bucked the trend in that time & occasionally a cameo from Tomlin.

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In fairness to Harris he has brought in substantially better footballers IMO. Moore Wilson Ojo Osei-Tutu and potentially Benkovich, are a significant upgrade in terms of skill. And any one of them would fit in very well at Swansea. At the start of the season, there is no doubt we were trying to play a more passing game. But it wasn't working. Is that beacuse we don't have the players or we don't have the coaching staff? I think Harris should have rested a few against Stoke. that was a mistake. And a stronger, more confident manager would have done that. Chickens came home to roost today. The players were knackered and Harris was found wanting.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

In fairness to Harris he has brought in substantially better footballers IMO. Moore Wilson Ojo Osei-Tutu and potentially Benkovich, are a significant upgrade in terms of skill. And any one of them would fit in very well at Swansea. At the start of the season, there is no doubt we were trying to play a more passing game. But it wasn't working. Is that beacuse we don't have the players or we don't have the coaching staff? I think Harris should have rested a few against Stoke. that was a mistake. And a stronger, more confident manager would have done that. Chickens came home to roost today. The players were knackered and Harris was found wanting.

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Just hanging this out there - do us fans (generally) suffer from wanting success more than being accepting of a transition? Would we be prepared to have a season of utter mediocrity where we see some good stuff and some garbage as we look to relaunch next season, or have 18 months of it and have a go as a new entity in 2022?

The downside to this argument is that we haven't really seen much of a transition from Warnockball and, whenever results don't work out, we revert to type.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Just hanging this out there - do us fans (generally) suffer from wanting success more than being accepting of a transition? Would we be prepared to have a season of utter mediocrity where we see some good stuff and some garbage as we look to relaunch next season, or have 18 months of it and have a go as a new entity in 2022?

The downside to this argument is that we haven't really seen much of a transition from Warnockball and, whenever results don't work out, we revert to type.

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I just want to win and dont care how we go about it.

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Originally Posted by goats

So we should have just played a five man mid like they always do today?

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There's more to it than just the actual shape. Swansea's players knew where to be in certain situations, which runs to make, it gave their midfielders plenty of options.

Having supported the club over many years many where we floundered around in the less glamorous parts of the league I think the last 10 years or so have been great .

If it does look at itself it could mean in this current financial climate we step back from trying to reach the top 6 and seek a step back as we redesign ourselves , how that redesign model will look like is not an easy one to see at this stage , or which club design we could follow and adopt .