All teams will have players they let go too early or where the players later development makes it seem that way. Which current players are at risk of being the next Ajeyi and what do we need to do in order to keep them around?
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All teams will have players they let go too early or where the players later development makes it seem that way. Which current players are at risk of being the next Ajeyi and what do we need to do in order to keep them around?
But we don't play in the Premier League.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
Joel Bagan maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
There's a big difference between not ripping into the club for letting Ajayi go and saying he's not good enough for us. Plenty of the former in this thread but I'm not sure if anyone's saying the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Even with hindsight I'm not sure what more the club could've done. We sent him out on loan twice to get experience, he suffered a head injury at Wimbledon and Crewe weren't in a position to extend his spell there so both loans were cut short. Trollope played him in pre-season for 2016-17 but he missed out as senior players got fit, Peltier was played at centre back in his place. By the time we realised he wasn't needed it was too late to send him out on loan till January so he was left kicking his heels with the under-23s.
Warnock came in and brought Bamba with him so Ajayi moved further down the pecking order. While Warnock might have been an ideal manager to bring Ajayi on and eradicate the dreamy mistakes from his game, there was no urgency to do this as we now had that position well covered and the immediate problems were at the other end of the pitch where we were trying to play a counter attacking game with a choice of Fred, Lambert or Chamakh to provide the cutting edge. The priority was knocking a completely out-of-sorts Zohore into some kind of shape rather than Ajayi.
Ajayi was sent on loan to Rotherham that January and with his contract here running down I'm not sure how we were meant to keep him when Rotherham were playing him every week and offering him a contract to join them. Warnock had three excellent centre halves, we couldn't realistically offer Ajayi first team football for at least a year or two so we'd have had to offer him a long term contract for more money than Rotherham were offering, not to play him but to hope we could keep finding him loan deals until he was 25. Even then Ajayi would probably have moved on.
While the odd mistake was overlooked during Rotherham's inevitable relegation to League 1, early blunders the next season cost Ajayi his place by September. Even though he played a lot through the season, he didn't make the starting line-up for Rotherham's last five league games or either of their play off semi final games (but did make the team for the final). I don't remember too many people on here saying we should've kept him then as we celebrated our promotion.
While we were in the Premier League, Ajayi was back in the Championship with Rotherham. Playing in defence until a 7-0 hammering at Man City saw him moved into centre-midfield where he enjoyed a good finish to the season, including a run of 6 goals in five games. West Brom took a chance on him, played him at centre half and he seems to have gone from strength to strength since then.
Looking back, his best chance to make it here was for Trollope to have played him in his back three and for him to have become undroppable but, as I've said, he couldn't even make a League 1 team's starting line-up at the end of the following season so that would've been unlikely. We could've employed Warnock to save us from relegation and then have a shot at promotion the following season and asked him nicely to try out all our youngsters while he was doing it but he might not have gone along with that. We could've admitted our 'mistake' and tried to bring Ajayi back instead of Flint but West Brom would've probably offered him more money and prospects anyway.
Easy to be wise after the event. I enjoyed watching Ajayi play for the under 23s and it would be great if he was playing alongside Morrison now but I find it hard to be too critical of the club on this occasion.
Apparently, the average tenure of a Championship manager is between 12 and 18 months:Quote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
(The figures are lower down the page)
https://sqaf.club/average-premier-le...ght%20campaign.
Slade pissed him off and he was always looking for a way out. He quite rightly buggered off and built his career as a first teamer. No regrets from me.Quote:
I went to Cardiff under Russell Slade where I thought I was going to play but he said afterwards that I was a development project... it annoyed me a bit because I was looking for the one thing I needed, first-team football, and I thought I was going to get it there. So I went out on loan to AFC Wimbledon - where I broke my nose and got concussed in my third game. I don’t remember a thing about it to this day and that’s despite seeing the video play back. I don’t know how it happened.
But Rotherham was the first place I found a home in football. At other places I always felt I was playing for my parent club and not the team I was in. But at Rotherham I really settled down and became a main part of the team and at last I got that regular first-team football I knew I needed. When I first got in there, I think they thought I had played a lot more than I had... I was held up as someone who had already played 100 times but I had only made 20, 30 appearances at that point. But it was great. I got a place just by the ground, the people took me to their heart and made me feel at home and of course we got involved in a promotion season which was massive. We kind of knew what we were doing and hit our form just before Christmas and we flew up the table thinking we could even get top two. In the end we finished fourth and made the Play-Offs but we got past Scunthorpe and then Shrewsbury in the final after extra-time and the feeling... it’s one of the best I can imagine. It was like the whole town turned out for us when we got back and it’s great to see how much a football team can bring to people. Seeing that huge amount of joy being experienced by a community was unforgettable.
This is a simple matter as far as I'm concerned. The club decided that Ajayi wasn't good enough, the large majority of contributors (most of whom had never seen Ajayi play until he after he left us I daresay) to this thread have supported the club's stance, therefore it follows they didn't rate him good enough to play for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loramski
He left us when he was in his mid twenties having not featured in the first team in a competitive match at all and in the three and a half years since then, he's played nearly one hundred and forty league matches with the large majority of them being at Championship level or higher, while he made his full international debut for Nigeria in 2018 and has bow won thirteen caps for them - I think those stats look terrible from a Cardiff point of view.
You did see Ajayi play for us and I can remember us having conversations about him at reserve games - am I surprised he's playing in the Premier League now and scoring at Anfield? Yes I am, I didn't believe he could reach the stage where he appears to be West Brom's first choice centreback when they are in the top flight. Did I think he could become a good quality Championship player? Yes, definitely because there was always an element to his game which suggested he could make the step up to senior football - when I first saw James Collins playing at centre half, I was struck by his ability to fire beautifully hit, inch perfect, passes to team mates over long distances, Ajayi was able to do this and, increasingly, he was becoming a threat at set pieces at under 23 level (I wasn't surprised at all when Rotherham began to use him as a deep lying midfielder), his defending was a bit raw (he was slightly at fault with Liverpool's goal yesterday), but I thought it was improving during his time with us..
The most any City fans saw of Ajayi was was in his Development team appearances, but staff at the club saw him training every day when he wasn't out on loan to someone else - if, with that extra knowledge, they are genuinely surprised by how Ajayi's career has developed since he left us, then I think their judgement of players cannot be very good.
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to be resurrected after yesterday's game.
Funny that it stayed quiet last weekend.
I'm not sure how starting his first season well in the Premier League is proof that he was good enough to play in our first team four years ago. I explained that he couldn't make Rotherham's team at the end of 2017-18 in League 1 and yet you want to mock those of us who don't realise we should actually have been dropping two of Morrison, Bamba and Manga to make way for him in our promotion team that season.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
How should the club have gone about developing him into a first teamer here with those three ahead of him? He was 23, not 18 like Bagan is, so when the chance of regular football came up with Rotherham it's hardly surprising he wanted to move on. How would you have kept him here in that situation? How would you have kept Heaton happy with Marshall ahead of him, how would you have kept McCormack happy with Bothroyd and Chopra ahead of him? These situations arise now and again.
As has been said elsewhere in this thread, every team has let a player go who goes on to be successful elsewhere. Sometimes it's down to a massive mistake, sometimes it's just circumstances. I'd class the Ajayi situation in the latter category.
I'm afraid that you're banging your head against a brick wall with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loramski
Why would Ajayi have signed a contract extension here? I wouldn’t have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
2 excellent posts by you.... enjoyed reading them both. Well reasoned and objective. Objectivity is a bit of an alien concept on here unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loramski
I’m pleased for Ajayi but in my opinion he’s an average Championship level defender at best... and we’ve had, and still have, a bunch of those
I'm not sure where i said we should be dropping first choice centrebacks for Ajayi, what I said is that we could have tried to keep him with a promise that his chance would come soon given the age of those in front of him and the possible departure of Manga. Based on the quote from him that has been posted in the thread, that may well not have been enough to keep him here, but, as I said earlier, the success he's had since leaving us does raise questions about decision making at the club regarding his contract, especially in light of the fee spent on Aden Flint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loramski
I accept that I'm banging this drum loud, but I've never had a problem on here admitting to having made a mistake and I might be here, but to accuse me (presumably you meant me?) of lacking objectivity and then saying Ajayi is "an average Championship level defender at best" in your next sentence is going it a bit when you consider that he was a regular starter both for a promotion winning side last season and again in the Premier Division. Do you seriously think he would be doing that if he was just "average" for the division below the one he is currently playing in?Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
This in my opinion is where your intransigence is shining through. What have you seen that says he’s anything more than an average Championship defender, which is what he’ll be again next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I also think that Morrison who had exactly the same credentials you are espousing for Ajayi is also just an average Championship defender... as were Bamba, Manga, Bennett and Peltier (who also got signed by WBA).
How many times have you seen him play?Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
So, you're saying that Ajayi plus all of the defenders we had at the club when we got promoted were average at Championship level? I accept that there is an argument to say that they aren't Premier League standard, but you genuinely believe that none of those you list are good Championship defenders (and weren't when we got promoted?)? All I can say is that you have very demanding standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
Manga and Morrison aren't-weren't average at championship level, neither was Bamba on his day. Ludicrous to say so in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Bob, do you think that your reaction on the progress of Ajayi would be a little more laissez faire if we had more of a track record of developing young players over the last ten years or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Sean Morrison appeared in the 2019-2020 Whoscored team of the year:Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
He did not appear in the PFA team of the year for the same season. Ajayi didn't make that PFA team either but he does appear in the Sky Championship pundits team of the year:Quote:
Partnering Hutchinson at the back is Cardiff's Sean Morrison. Only Preston's Patrick Bauer (249) won more aerial duels than Morrison (243) in the Championship this season. The 29-year-old scored four and assisted two for the Bluebirds, while no player won more WhoScored.com man of the match awards than Morrison (10) to contribute towards his inclusion in this team with a rating of 7.26.
Think you might have higher expectations for really good Championship defenders than is fair considering two of those who described as average were in some (not all) of the best 11 for last season.Quote:
And White's partner at the back is West Brom's Ajayi, signed from Rotherham in the summer and has quickly established himself as one of the top defenders in the Championship. Four of our six pundits selected him in their side
Maybe it’s our respective definitions of Championship defenders... I suppose my perspective is that none of them are anything more than average. I’d suggest that you could probably take a centre half from any team in the Championship and drop them into any of the other 23 teams and they’d probably do just fine. Let’s say there are 92 regular starting centre halves ... it’s very rare you get a stand out player in that position in this league... if they existed there’d be a queue of interested top half premier league teams for them...Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I don’t recall anyone ever being interested in any of our defenders being in those conversations. In fact we’ve only really had a few that have ever been able to bridge the gap between average (because that’s what I think a Championship level player generally is) and having a Premier League career... Outside of Gabbidon, Collins and maybe Johnson (who went downhill quickly) I’m struggling with any more who made their name with us in that position
When I started this thread my point was really that he never made a single appearance in any competition for us before being released on a Free. With that in mind I’m surprised there are so many insights about him as he went completely under the radar for me. I posted it after reading a post by a WBA fan stating he thought he was Bilic’s best signing for their club.
Reply to Surge:
You’d probably be right about my expectations but I’m not sure that some select XI’s from whoscored.com and a bunch of Championship ‘pundits’ are significant enough for me to change my perspective
I think you’ve done a good job of showing that certain players aren’t Premier League standard there, but I struggle to se how you can lump almost every centre back in the Championship together as being much of a muchness. A week on Friday, Sean Morrison will be thirty and so that might well be enough to put some clubs off him, but if we had been looking to sell him at any time in the four or five years since we signed him, I think there may have been one or two PremierLeague teams interested in him, but I’m pretty sure there would have been a fair few from the Championship because I think he’s seen as a good defender in this division within the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
I think your last sentence is where we differ. Good defenders at this level are just that... and I do think they are much of a muchness, which is where my ‘average’ language comes from. Very rarely do they turn into anything more. They may get you into the top half of the Championship but that’s about it for most of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Are good defenders at this level more about consistency of performance rather than talent levels? Morrison is one of the most consistently above average defenders at this level but you could probably find an equally talented defender who shows their skills once every four games. That's why McNaughton could do it at CB for 2 games in a row but was found out if asked to do more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
Premier league is looking for talent and consistency and most defenders at this level aren't able to get there while some others can but still need coaching up.
Unlikely that Morrison was ever going to attract premier league interest but he's definitely one of the better ones at this level.
This will be a quiet thread tonight
wait, there's another thread that I'll boostQuote:
Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker
Apparently not. Leeds have been great again.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker
Peach of an own goal.
Yep, it probably will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bob Banker Spanker
The fact that Lee Peltier started just reinforces the average nature of Championship defenders... the fact that they conceded 5 puts a cherry on the top
How does the fact Peltier started a PL game reinforce anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
You don’t see the link? Suppose I’m not surprisedQuote:
Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa
I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about. Peltier was a very good defender for us and the fact you call Manga, Bamba and Morrison average is mental. Look at the difference between Benkovic and Morrison tonight. Chalk and cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
I didn’t just call those defenders average, I said most if not nearly all defenders at this level are just average. Peltier was below average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa
You’re the guy I think who believes Bennett is a good defender 🤪.
Well, you did call them average.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
Peltier was a very good defender. Who skinned him? He was extremely limited but he could defend. If the ball went past him, the man didn't :hehe:. Bennett is the other way but he's a decent left back. Cunningham again, is a decent left back. Maybe Harris is right about who's the better defender after Benkovic's "performance" tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
Just like at all levels, some players are better than others. Manga, Bamba and Morrison were miles ahead of most centre backs at this level.
I called them average because that’s exactly what they are, and today the defenders in our squad aren’t even average.... they consistently get exposed by teams that nobody could call special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa
You’re living in a parallel universe sunshine
Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I agree. Also, Bruno went on to regularly playing right back for us and Connelly was forever injured.
So he could have been just behind Sol and Morrison.
I'm astounded that people defend the club's approach to young players, which has been appalling.
Even some of the youngsters who left us and not done great after they left, I wonder if they were damaged by our 'anti-youth development' approach ... overlooked, sidelined, ignored and at a club that has a football approach that is quite frankly 'prehistoric'.
As much as I love the club, I would really struggle allowing one of my children to sign for city at youth level knowing the clubs approach to development
This is what Bellamy was trying to change.
Agree with this 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird
Yes you can look at our squad at the time and think that Ajayi wouldn't be first choice ahead of Morrison and Bamba, but in that promotion season Greg Halford even played a few games at centre back so there would have been opportunities if only the club had the will to take them to develop youth.
There will ALWAYS be a more proven option but unless you push the boat out occasionally and play then them the younger players are never going to become good enough.
Ajayi got games at a decent level (thanks to Rotherham) and went on to be a good Championship level defender at least, and is just entering his peak years.
How many more of our youth players could have developed to a far higher level if they had been at a club that was remotely interested in developing youth players? we will never know.
One of the most baffling decisions with Ajayi came under Slade when we had nothing to play for and a run of 5 or 6 games at the end of the season, and we decided to play Danny Gabbidon instead, who was at the end of his contract .
To take another club as an example - Reading.
Players from their academy are currently playing for half of the teams in the Championship.
Are players from the Reading area much more naturally gifted than those from South Wales? - no of course not.
Were all of those players the strongest options at their clubs in their respective positions when they started to get game time? - no of course not.
They could have made excuses for not playing any of them, in exactly the same way as we see on this thread about Ajayi, but they, and other clubs at this level didn't.
Talking out your arse. One time you say you can swap Champ defenders and you wouldn’t notice, then you said you didn’t say you said they were average, then you said they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton
Manga, Bamba and Morrison were clearly top Championship centre backs. They were the best trio in the league in 17/18. If you can’t see that, maybe you should give up.