The Von-Layen Tamer

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

some people on here make me smile.
so many complaining that he wanted a 'no deal' situation and now he has a deal they're still not satisfied, slagging it off before anyone even knows the details.
Mind even Kier Stammer did, calling it a thin deal an hour after it was announced when no one had even read it. All these people so clever perhaps they should have been the negotiators.
But despite someone on here saying it took 41/2 years to get a bad deal, as stated he can't know that because he doesn't know what the deal is and it didn't take 4 1/2 years it took 11 months. It's the biggest free trade deal ever negotiated (c£660 Billion). The deal with Canada took 5 years of constant negotiations and that's about average.

But I think what it really is is the people who think we shouldn't have left in the first place and cannot accept that they lost. It might be a bad deal but at least lets know the details before you slag it off, which you will anyway because Boris did it.

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The details that matter are known, though. That you think anything of significance was going to come out of the negotiations this week belies your failure to grasp what was at stake here. No passporting; no protection of the service industry; and a nightmare for anyone who moves stuff across the border. And that was always going to be the case under this type of exit. Everything else - Erasmus; fishing rights etc - just gets lost in the rounding. At a national level, it does not matter. We've gifted financial services to the EU and got nothing back. Tariff free is all well and good but the ones who will be smiling most live in Southern Germany.

"Maybe they should have been the negotiators". You cannot negotiate anything from that position: you vote for a losing outcome and then fight as hard as you can to mitigate the disaster. That is it. They are not saying that they could do a better job: they are saying that the job was a hospital pass from the off.

It was always, always going to be a car crash. European leaders have every political motivation to force Brexit to be a failure, and that is what they have done and what they were always going to do. Macron was up against Le Pen in 2017 and will be again in 2022. He will want to ridicule the notion of leaving the EU: he cannot afford for Brexit to be anything other than an abject failure. He needs the UK to be worse off for his own political needs (and to minimise the chances of his own country following suit, in line with his own beliefs). Most of them won't want to see their own countries going through this sort of turmoil and the best way to achieve that is to make an example of the UK and punish it for leaving. It's that simple, it always has been. The same is obviously true of the EU institutions.

It shouldn't be that way, and if everyone was trying to work out what the best answer for both economies then we wouldn't end up here, but it was never going to be driven by that - it was always going to be far more political.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Do you think hes capable?

Do you think that would actually be on the table?

We'll get ****ed. All that EU money which paid for infrastructure improvements wont be landing in Wales if entirely up to any UK Tory government.

Not sure we'd do any better under Starmer if I'm honest.

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Im pretty sure wed be a lot better off under Starmer than the incompetent bufoon some on here voted in.😂

hilts agree a buffoon the worse PM in my lifetime but didn't its own party vote him in after Mays attempt failed in the brexit talks ?

don't think the public had a say

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

We will probably be a bit worse off initially, but with new trade agreements we can now have with other nations as an independent country there is no reason why over a few years we can't cancel that out and go further.

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Thats the focus, positiveness.

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Originally Posted by Optimistic Nick

The details that matter are known, though. That you think anything of significance was going to come out of the negotiations this week belies your failure to grasp what was at stake here. No passporting; no protection of the service industry; and a nightmare for anyone who moves stuff across the border. And that was always going to be the case under this type of exit. Everything else - Erasmus; fishing rights etc - just gets lost in the rounding. At a national level, it does not matter. We've gifted financial services to the EU and got nothing back. Tariff free is all well and good but the ones who will be smiling most live in Southern Germany.

"Maybe they should have been the negotiators". You cannot negotiate anything from that position: you vote for a losing outcome and then fight as hard as you can to mitigate the disaster. That is it. They are not saying that they could do a better job: they are saying that the job was a hospital pass from the off.

It was always, always going to be a car crash. European leaders have every political motivation to force Brexit to be a failure, and that is what they have done and what they were always going to do. Macron was up against Le Pen in 2017 and will be again in 2022. He will want to ridicule the notion of leaving the EU: he cannot afford for Brexit to be anything other than an abject failure. He needs the UK to be worse off for his own political needs (and to minimise the chances of his own country following suit, in line with his own beliefs). Most of them won't want to see their own countries going through this sort of turmoil and the best way to achieve that is to make an example of the UK and punish it for leaving. It's that simple, it always has been. The same is obviously true of the EU institutions.

It shouldn't be that way, and if everyone was trying to work out what the best answer for both economies then we wouldn't end up here, but it was never going to be driven by that - it was always going to be far more political.

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And there you have it. As I'm now living in Poland and in the course of moving 450 jobs out of the UK (plus roughly the same supply chain jobs). I'm seeing the consequences first hand. Our EU contracts state must be made within the EU, our UK contracts have no reciprocal clause. Southern Germany wins again and our suppliers across England & Wales just lost jobs a s a result.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

some people on here make me smile.
so many complaining that he wanted a 'no deal' situation and now he has a deal they're still not satisfied, slagging it off before anyone even knows the details.
Mind even Kier Stammer did, calling it a thin deal an hour after it was announced when no one had even read it. All these people so clever perhaps they should have been the negotiators.
But despite someone on here saying it took 41/2 years to get a bad deal, as stated he can't know that because he doesn't know what the deal is and it didn't take 4 1/2 years it took 11 months. It's the biggest free trade deal ever negotiated (c£660 Billion). The deal with Canada took 5 years of constant negotiations and that's about average.

But I think what it really is is the people who think we shouldn't have left in the first place and cannot accept that they lost. It might be a bad deal but at least lets know the details before you slag it off, which you will anyway because Boris did it.

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You're as guilty as those who make you smile though really aren't you, because you're looking at the situation as someone who consistently takes a certain political line and is sticking to it when it comes to the situation regarding Brexit - you make all sorts of judgements on those who feel differently to you, rightly pointing out that they are jumping to conclusions regarding a document that few will have read, but then you're doing the same from the other side aren't you.

All I'll see on the matter in this thread is that the name given to it is typical of a way of thinking which runs central to many leave voters views on Europe - Brexit is the war with Johnny Foreigner that they haven't lived through.

Free trade deal signed seemingly without having to give up everything. There's always compromise and I'm sure both sides climbed down on things at the last minute. Don't think we really needed 4 years mind, as with most deadlines, things magically get sorted at the last minute.

Think in the long run we will do fine.

Least there isn't going to be people starving outside Tesco as they couldn't get some French cheese anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Im pretty sure wed be a lot better off under Starmer than the incompetent bufoon some on here voted in.��

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At the time the "buffoon" was the least worst option. Under a different Labour leader the election result may well have been different. But we are where we are so the public will have to get used to it.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

some people on here make me smile.
so many complaining that he wanted a 'no deal' situation and now he has a deal they're still not satisfied, slagging it off before anyone even knows the details.
Mind even Kier Stammer did, calling it a thin deal an hour after it was announced when no one had even read it. All these people so clever perhaps they should have been the negotiators.
But despite someone on here saying it took 41/2 years to get a bad deal, as stated he can't know that because he doesn't know what the deal is and it didn't take 4 1/2 years it took 11 months. It's the biggest free trade deal ever negotiated (c£660 Billion). The deal with Canada took 5 years of constant negotiations and that's about average.

But I think what it really is is the people who think we shouldn't have left in the first place and cannot accept that they lost. It might be a bad deal but at least lets know the details before you slag it off, which you will anyway because Boris did it.

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Good post That is exactly the point. I'm going to find out about the deal before I rush to judgement.

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Originally Posted by Optimistic Nick

The details that matter are known, though. That you think anything of significance was going to come out of the negotiations this week belies your failure to grasp what was at stake here. No passporting; no protection of the service industry; and a nightmare for anyone who moves stuff across the border. And that was always going to be the case under this type of exit. Everything else - Erasmus; fishing rights etc - just gets lost in the rounding. At a national level, it does not matter. We've gifted financial services to the EU and got nothing back. Tariff free is all well and good but the ones who will be smiling most live in Southern Germany.

"Maybe they should have been the negotiators". You cannot negotiate anything from that position: you vote for a losing outcome and then fight as hard as you can to mitigate the disaster. That is it. They are not saying that they could do a better job: they are saying that the job was a hospital pass from the off.

It was always, always going to be a car crash. European leaders have every political motivation to force Brexit to be a failure, and that is what they have done and what they were always going to do. Macron was up against Le Pen in 2017 and will be again in 2022. He will want to ridicule the notion of leaving the EU: he cannot afford for Brexit to be anything other than an abject failure. He needs the UK to be worse off for his own political needs (and to minimise the chances of his own country following suit, in line with his own beliefs). Most of them won't want to see their own countries going through this sort of turmoil and the best way to achieve that is to make an example of the UK and punish it for leaving. It's that simple, it always has been. The same is obviously true of the EU institutions.

It shouldn't be that way, and if everyone was trying to work out what the best answer for both economies then we wouldn't end up here, but it was never going to be driven by that - it was always going to be far more political.

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As long as separate nations are separate nations it will always be that way. You personally may wish that there weren't nations but there are and we have to live with it. That is what this is all about 'living with it'.
I disagree that it's a car crash for us any more than it is for the Eu, and I hope and believe that we will benefit in the long run although it is generally accepted that initially our economy will take a hit. That has always been known.
I don't fail to grasp anything and it is very presumptuous of you to think that I do and that you are more intelligent than I. you merely have a different perception of things. Macron is an arse, and nothing will help him. He hasn't got what he demanded for his fishermen and they know it, and if he veto's the agreement so many others will suffer that he will be destroyed. But we mainly got what the government promised, though we were never going to get everything, that is the nature of negotiations.
As I said some people were determined even hopeful that it would be a 'car crash' as you put it, just so they could shout about how we should not have left, but I don't think they can do that with any degree of honesty, not that that will stop them doing it.
We have left and boris johnson won an election on the promise to get it over and done with. He had delivered that promise, where others, the EU included were always wanting to extend the transition for years in the hope that people would weary of it and not leave. Ask yourself why the EU didn't want the UK to leave.

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

hilts agree a buffoon the worse PM in my lifetime but didn't its own party vote him in after Mays attempt failed in the brexit talks ?

don't think the public had a say

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Cameron is the worst PM in British history. Boris is just the unfortunate effect of Cameron's gamble.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Good post That is exactly the point. I'm going to find out about the deal before I rush to judgement.

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You already know anything that matters. It's not a difficult one to evaluate.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

At the time the "buffoon" was the least worst option. Under a different Labour leader the election result may well have been different. But we are where we are so the public will have to get used to it.

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I've got well used to hopeless Governments and Prime Ministers over the past decade that are dominated by the Conservative party's civil war over the EU and will do anything to placate the zealots on the right of their party.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

That's not an answer, though.

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you always 'demand' answers like you are some kind of inquisitor. and if someone doesn't answer you use that as proof that they are wrong. Which of course is in itself wrong.
Why don't we vote in a right wing government and then see what they do or don't do instead of asking what a right wing government we have never had did for the valleys?
Bearing in mind of course that our non-right wing government has had years of the benefit of EU money as a deprived nation.
And lets try to remember that there is more to Wales than the Valleys too.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I've got well used to hopeless Governments and Prime Ministers over the past decade that are dominated by the Conservative party's civil war over the EU and will do anything to placate the zealots on the right of their party.

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I think you have quoted the wrong post as your comments do not relate to anything I said.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Im pretty sure wed be a lot better off under Starmer than the incompetent bufoon some on here voted in.��

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The problem is that if Labour had won the election we wouldn't have Starmer we'd have Crobyn and the people like Abbott and McCluskey behind him pulling his strings. Crobyn is notorious for being incapable of making decisions so god help us in any negotiations with him in charge

No one voted leave for economic reasons. We knew before the vote that it would hurt us financially and we still know it now. Leave voters obviously thought the benefits outweigh the cost

Personally, I still haven't seen a single benefit that is better or easier than what we had under EU membership (extra herring doesn't do much for me to be honest) but the one good thing is that this is an issue the Tories own from start to finish. No one else to blame (although let's wait to see how 'businesses haven't prepared in time' in January) so this one's all on them.

Will certainly make it easier to explain to my kids as they grow up in the first generation in a log time who have fewer opportunities than their parents had.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You're as guilty as those who make you smile though really aren't you, because you're looking at the situation as someone who consistently takes a certain political line and is sticking to it when it comes to the situation regarding Brexit - you make all sorts of judgements on those who feel differently to you, rightly pointing out that they are jumping to conclusions regarding a document that few will have read, but then you're doing the same from the other side aren't you.

All I'll see on the matter in this thread is that the name given to it is typical of a way of thinking which runs central to many leave voters views on Europe - Brexit is the war with Johnny Foreigner that they haven't lived through.

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This is not the first time you have stated that I take a particular political line and it is as untrue now as it was the first time you peddled it. Unless of course you mean saying something that goes against your philosophy. I have clearly stated on this forum more than once that I voted to remain in the EU, as I thought it was the better option, but the fact is the country voted to leave, so one has to be pragmatic and get on with the business. My dislike of Drakeford is personal not political, I just don't like the man and I question his motives in some of the things he does. It isn't political at all.
The only judgement I make is on certain people who judge everything by their own political beliefs, and in doing so will automatically say something is bad or wrong whatever it is, if it doesn't agree with their ideas of how things should be, even, as you accept, they don't even know what that something is yet.
You only have to read some of the posts in this thread to understand that this is so, if one can see part one's own political beliefs.
The real fact is that the country voted for this and then the country voted for the current Westminster Government on the promise to do this and finish it, and they have. And many of those who did vote in this government are people who's naturally affinity is to another party. Perhaps some on here might quietly reflect on why that may have been.
What happens in the next few years will determine the rightness or wrongness of it, and nothing else. no one can state now that it is wrong.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I've got well used to hopeless Governments and Prime Ministers over the past decade that are dominated by the Conservative party's civil war over the EU and will do anything to placate the zealots on the right of their party.

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I suppose the same can be said about the opposition party only on the other side of the scale, I've spoilt my vote on the last couple of elections and I would like to see a box added to the ballot paper of (None of the Above) and if that comes back with a majority then they have to find a fresh bunch of MP's and go again, so it would maybe end the career politician and get a bit of substance behind our politics.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

I suppose the same can be said about the opposition party only on the other side of the scale, I've spoilt my vote on the last couple of elections and I would like to see a box added to the ballot paper of (None of the Above) and if that comes back with a majority then they have to find a fresh bunch of MP's and go again, so it would maybe end the career politician and get a bit of substance behind our politics.

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Whilst I agree with the thrust of your post we have to be careful what we wish for.
At their last election the Americans voted for someone who was definitely not a "Career Politician"
That went well! :xmashehe:

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I think you have quoted the wrong post as your comments do not relate to anything I said.

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No, I was replying to your comments about us “having to get used to it” - I’m well used to it by now, but it seems the more havoc the Conservatives cause with their infatuation over Europe, the more people consider them “the least worst option”.

For those interested, I though this thread was quite good posted last night: https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status...37512488296448

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1. Getting a free trade agreem't done in less than a year is unusually quick. Both teams of negotiators deserve praise. UK's refusal to extend transition may have helped, by concentrating minds. The cost: great uncertainty for firms, which haven't known what rules to expect.

3. Leaving the EU is rather like accession in reverse: when joining EU, a country has to take EU's terms or it doesn't get in. Once UK had set its red lines, EU decided the broad outlines of the deal it would get. EU has ceded on details, but overall shape is what it wanted.

6. EU has been paranoid on level playing field. Its big trade surplus suggests field tilts v UK; Brexit will make UK even less competitive. No Tory govt would slash soc'l/envt'l rights or pump billions into industry. UK also silly to fight to keep right to cut rules it likes.

7. When the Brits realise what a thin deal they've got, their politicians will debate how/whether to improve it. Labour is likely to seek closer economic & security ties. For one reason or another, UK & EU will be in permanent negotiation, for at least 50 years. Ask the Swiss.

8. In those negot's UK will be hampered by lack of trust on EU side. Episodes like the attempts to prorogue Parliament and over-ride the Withdrawal Agreement have damaged UK soft power. EU will be pragmatic and realistic but it doesn't start out with lots of goodwill to UK.

10. Brexit adds to uncertainty about UK unity (many Brexiteers care little about this). It's helping to boost support for SNP & Scottish independence. And nobody can be sure how new border in Irish Sea will affect politics in N IRE - which'll stay in single mkt & customs

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Some will want to move on now and some will continue to look at the details. All I would say is that when Wales succeeded in reaching the semi-final's there were so many books, films, podcasts covering every magnificent detail....people enjoy that sort of specific coverage when they're talking about something they're proud of.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

I suppose the same can be said about the opposition party only on the other side of the scale, I've spoilt my vote on the last couple of elections and I would like to see a box added to the ballot paper of (None of the Above) and if that comes back with a majority then they have to find a fresh bunch of MP's and go again, so it would maybe end the career politician and get a bit of substance behind our politics.

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There was a Labour Government for thirteen years not that long ago and, while they could never be described as wholly united on Europe, it was never as dominated by the issue as the Conservatives have been.

Agree with you on the “none of the above” option.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

I suppose the same can be said about the opposition party only on the other side of the scale, I've spoilt my vote on the last couple of elections and I would like to see a box added to the ballot paper of (None of the Above) and if that comes back with a majority then they have to find a fresh bunch of MP's and go again, so it would maybe end the career politician and get a bit of substance behind our politics.

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A genuine question. Why did you spoil your ballot papers ? Is it just personal satisfaction or Is their some other motivation ? I ask as someone who has worked on Election counts of all sorts for many years and have always wondered what the expectation might be.

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Originally Posted by Enoch Mort

A genuine question. Why did you spoil your ballot papers ? Is it just personal satisfaction or Is their some other motivation ? I ask as someone who has worked on Election counts of all sorts for many years and have always wondered what the expectation might be.

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I don't know the details, but I'd imagine ballot spoiling has absolutely no effect on anything. You might as well save yourself the bother and not vote at all.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

This is not the first time you have stated that I take a particular political line and it is as untrue now as it was the first time you peddled it. Unless of course you mean saying something that goes against your philosophy. I have clearly stated on this forum more than once that I voted to remain in the EU, as I thought it was the better option, but the fact is the country voted to leave, so one has to be pragmatic and get on with the business. My dislike of Drakeford is personal not political, I just don't like the man and I question his motives in some of the things he does. It isn't political at all.
The only judgement I make is on certain people who judge everything by their own political beliefs, and in doing so will automatically say something is bad or wrong whatever it is, if it doesn't agree with their ideas of how things should be, even, as you accept, they don't even know what that something is yet.
You only have to read some of the posts in this thread to understand that this is so, if one can see part one's own political beliefs.
The real fact is that the country voted for this and then the country voted for the current Westminster Government on the promise to do this and finish it, and they have. And many of those who did vote in this government are people who's naturally affinity is to another party. Perhaps some on here might quietly reflect on why that may have been.
What happens in the next few years will determine the rightness or wrongness of it, and nothing else. no one can state now that it is wrong.

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Well, when you hold certain beliefs and someone consistently says things that are contrary to them over a long period, like you have done, you assume that they have little or nothing in common with you politically. Anyway, all I did was point out that you appeared to be doing exactly the same as some who had made you “smile” because of the way they were putting their views over. The only thing I said on the Brexit vote in particular was that the title of this thread reminded me of the sort of language heard by some leave voters.

Everybody judges things by their own political beliefs, or to put it another way, I’d be reluctant to believe someone who claimed they didn’t. A thing that sometimes makes me smile is how some are so reluctant to admit that theirs have changed as they move a long way to the right as they get older.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Well, when you hold certain beliefs and someone consistently says things that are contrary to them over a long period, like you have done, you assume that they have little or nothing in common with you politically. Anyway, all I did was point out that you appeared to be doing exactly the same as some who had made you “smile” because of the way they were putting their views over. The only thing I said on the Brexit vote in particular was that the title of this thread reminded me of the sort of language heard by some leave voters.

Everybody judges things by their own political beliefs, or to put it another way, I’d be reluctant to believe someone who claimed they didn’t. A thing that sometimes makes me smile is how some are so reluctant to admit that theirs have changed as they move a long way to the right as they get older.

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you can only move a long way to the right as you get older if you are not there already. :xmasthumbup:

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Originally Posted by lardy

I don't know the details, but I'd imagine ballot spoiling has absolutely no effect on anything. You might as well save yourself the bother and not vote at all.

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Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve often felt that a big enough number of spoilt ballots or “none of the above” votes if they were allowed may have an effect on the bigger parties - I would probably have voted none of the above in the 2010 General Election if it had been allowed.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve often felt that a big enough number of spoilt ballots or “none of the above” votes if they were allowed may have an effect on the bigger parties - I would probably have voted none of the above in the 2010 General Election if it had been allowed.

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Thast would only work if the spoiled ballot papers were formally counted instead of just being thrown away

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve often felt that a big enough number of spoilt ballots or “none of the above” votes if they were allowed may have an effect on the bigger parties - I would probably have voted none of the above in the 2010 General Election if it had been allowed.

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That does happen in some countries - maybe Russia if I remember rightly? But not the UK, so it's just a pointless endeavour, even if it would be useful to have one day.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Thast would only work if the spoiled ballot papers were formally counted instead of just being thrown away

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They are formally counted and included in the totality for each constituency/ward

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Originally Posted by Enoch Mort

They are formally counted and included in the totality for each constituency/ward

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Really? I n ever knew that. Learn something every day. :xmasthumbup:

Now the deal has been agreed can someone tell me an actual benefit of brexit beyond meaningless buzzwords and catchphrases like sovereignty and taking back control?

As far as I can see we have been reduced to celebrating signing the first ever trade deal in history that makes it harder for us to trade.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Now the deal has been agreed can someone tell me an actual benefit of brexit beyond meaningless buzzwords and catchphrases like sovereignty and taking back control?

As far as I can see we have been reduced to celebrating signing the first ever trade deal in history that makes it harder for us to trade.

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I suppose it depends if you think sovereignty is meaningless. Some people do, some people don't

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

Taking control and over riding Drakeford and co with a M4 relief road for starters and trying to encourage some investment into Wales.

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'Your future dream is a shopping scheme'.
Must be nice that your dream scenario is another huge swathe of ashpalt across our beautiful country, still the economy must grow, captitalism and all that. I'd prefer to live in a small country, with a small economy and small population, cut our cloth accordingly etc. Still, each to their own.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Now the deal has been agreed can someone tell me an actual benefit of brexit beyond meaningless buzzwords and catchphrases like sovereignty and taking back control?

As far as I can see we have been reduced to celebrating signing the first ever trade deal in history that makes it harder for us to trade.

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I believe we can strike independent deals away from Europe , no one can predict where this will take us however we may know if its a success or failure in time for the Boris / Tory second term of governance and election in 2029.

34 page summary of the deal within this link enjoy .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55443780

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I suppose it depends if you think sovereignty is meaningless. Some people do, some people don't

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Tell me what it means and how it’s different post brexit.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I believe we can strike independent deals away from Europe , no one can predict where this will take us however we may know if its a success or failure in time for the Boris / Tory second term of governance and election in 2029.

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Who do the EU not have a good trade deal with that we could strike a better one with and why would they give the U.K. a better deal?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Who do the EU not have a good trade deal with that we could strike a better one with and why would they give the U.K. a better deal?

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You could just as well ask why does it take the EU so long to strike trade deals. It's a lot easier for the UK, as a single country, to complete a deal than it is for the requirements of 27 (or 28 if you include Wallonia) to be met.